[Closed] God and the Afterlife......?

Hypothesis, Experiment, Theory, Peer Group Review.

What's any of that got to do with faith?

Plus none of that would help you in FeeFoo's situation anyway 🙂

What's any of that got to do with faith?

Nothing. It's an answer to his question about the veracity of my perception regarding the empty box.

Except it doesn't really answer it.

My point being that we are trapped by our own subjectivity.
We are essentially incapable of making an objective assessment.

We can state how things appear to us but not how they necessarily are.

(molgrips, just insist you've already paid)

This presupposes that your senses and your brain tissue that exists within the universe are giving you accurate information and that you are capable of processing it accurately.
Why would that necessarily be the case?

Quite.

Feefoo makes a good point, but not just in terms of your actual senses. I once watched two scientists argue that the same evidence meant two opposite conclusions...

I once watched two scientists argue that the same evidence meant two opposite conclusions...

If the universe is finite, then how can't there be a god; as the absence of one defies the second law of thermodynamics which we know to be a immutable fact.

A bigger leap of faith for me is the universe is infinite, so something existed before time, space, matter and energy.....

This presupposes that your senses and your brain tissue that exists within the universe are giving you accurate information and that you are capable of processing it accurately.
Why would that necessarily be the case?

As i always say to this species argument pick any two objects - one you think is hard and one you think is soft
Its pretty obvious the world behaves in a predictable and reliable way and the info we get is accurate - imagine trying to ride a bike if the balance info was unreliable, the visual information was unreliable and your perception of speed terrain etc was inaccurate - we would crash a lot more than we currently do and have no idea why
its a proper clutching at straws argument

I shall beat you with them repeatedly until such time as you think that you may be perceiving them accurately - I will will go for 100% accuracy across all people as verified by injury.

How do you know you ride bikes? It could all be a false memory implanted by some machine.

🙄
are we 16 year old smoking dope and talking shit now DUDE?

PS The good news is your cars fixed but the bad news is your sense are ****ed and they still think its broken

Jesus wept

Go on, 11 more posts for 500, woops make that 10 more!

PS The good news is your cars fixed but the bad news is your sense are **** and they still think its broken

are we 16 year old smoking dope and talking shit now DUDE?

Just pointing out how silly it is to go on about evidence and facts, when talking about religion. It's not part of that domain. At least, not for many people.

Hardly conclusive but wiki reckons

The majority of the three million Nazi Party members continued to pay their church taxes and register as Christians.[5]

Also found [url= http://atheist-nutters.blogspot.co.uk/2007/09/atheist-urban-legend-hitlers.html ]this[/url] scary fella, now if you wanna prove hitler was an atheist fair enough but using the argument "that's not how I think a Christian should behave so he couldn't have been one" is a bit lame.

Excellent thread. It's not that I don't believe in God I just find the whole concept a little far fetched, certainly the idea that there's a single consciousness (however all knowing) that dreamt this (the universe that is) all up.

The thing that always amuses me about this kind of debate is the fact that;

a) Regardless of biblical comment it's fairly well reasoned that there's no evidence for God. More so God is apparently outside of our ability of comprehension so evidence will never surface.
b) God is an entirely human creation born from eons of superstitious beliefs that have matured over time, the result being the very defendable idea we have today.
c) Religion in it's purist (original) form is a means of controlling the masses and individuals have leveraged this for both good and evil. At it's core though it's a purely human concept and one that groups have moulded to thier own ends.

So, as it's a purely human concept and one with zero evidence the likely hood that 'god' exists is highly unlikely. If anything has taken a had in moulding our universe 'it' definitely doesn't give a toss about our dirty little corner and certainly doesn't fit any discription or belief structure that exists.

Like most I find extremism in any form indefensible and most religions are very acceptable to me, regardless of the fact I think all their members are a few sandwiches short of a picnic. I recon there must be a religious 'gene' that make some more likely to believe, or at the very least feel more comfortable with a belief.

I like proof and there is none so that's that as far as I'm concerned. If I do find myself a the gates of the 'Kingdom' after this life I won't be completely unprepared but mildly surprised. I'd have to have words...

If all religious knowledge were wiped off the face of the Earth and we had to start again, I think we'd probably construct a new set of stories to try to explain 'difficult' issues around creation and death. However, they would bear only passing resemblance to the current stories.

If all scientific knowledge were wiped off the face of the Earth and we had to start again, we'd come up with exactly the same set of explanations, eventually, as we have now.

Mike made this point some hours ago and I was planning to make the same point but I had to go and earn a living for a few hours.
Nobody picked up on it but I think it's absolutely at the heart of the matter.

just find the whole concept a little far fetched

It's at times like these that I like to ask myself WWFS (What Would Feynman Say).

He said this:

"It doesn't seem to me that this fantastically marvelous universe, this tremendous range of time and space and different kinds of animals, and all the different planets, and all these atoms with all their motions, and so on, all this complicated thing can merely be a stage so that God can watch human beings struggle for good and evil — which is the view that religion has. The stage is too big for the drama."

I think that if there is a God, he's some kind of scientist who's fired a couple of particles into his trans-dimenstional accelerator to create the Big Bang and is now watching it with interest from outside. Maybe a raised eyebrow.

I hope you're right Molgrips.. 😀

[img] [/img]

edit: pic didn't work

😆 @yunki

I'm afraid I can't say whether there is a god or not, whether there is an afterlife or properly assess whether all/any religions are corrupt.

I can say that there on this thread there are huge amounts of disrespect shown to people. From some there seems to be a lack of decency and also a lack of emotional intelligence. I know this is the internet but there does need to be a level of basic civility and regard.

I don't mind a healthy debate but this is ridiculous. Some times it feels like this place is amazing. Some times it feels like a school playground where some people think it's all right to grossly deride, insult or bully others maybe attacking people from some imaginary high ground. Funnily enough, it isn't.

I can say that there on this thread there are huge amounts of disrespect shown to people. From some there seems to be a lack of decency and also a lack of emotional intelligence. I know this is the internet but there does need to be a level of basic civility and regard.

I agree, but then that is generally what happens in this type of discussion. Quite why those of a theistic bent keep insisting on insulting those of us who dare to question such beliefs is beyond me. Surely they should just forgive us?

Quite why those of a theistic bent keep insisting on insulting those of us who dare to question such beliefs is beyond me

Wait.. What? Where did that happen? Looked like mostly atheists dishing it out, I thought.

Hold on back again.. You're not wrong there Mol, and I try to show respect for others beliefs..
But can I just play Devil's advocate for a moment..
Imagine it was discovered that Melvyn, the 46 year old welder at work in the same workshop as you believed in Father Christmas.. Would he not get a bit of pisstaking?

I agree, but then that is generally what happens in this type of discussion.

I just don't get why being respectful of each other seems an impossibility when opinions differ. It's not hard to respect the personhood of someone else. Should be the default position, no...?

Quite why those of a theistic bent keep insisting on insulting those of us who dare to question such beliefs is beyond me.

Questioning is good in all things. People having different ideas and beliefs is also more healthy for humanity surely?

Surely they should just forgive us?

From his mates, maybe, if he wasn't upset by it.

But can I just play Devil's advocate for a moment.. Imagine it was discovered that Melvyn, the 46 year old welder at work in the same workshop as you believed in Father Christmas.. Would he not get a bit of pisstaking?

I would ask different questions as the devils advocate.

Why do we think we can ridicule others for what they believe?

What drives some people to take the piss out of others?

Should the ridiculousness of Melvin's beliefs be of any importance or concern to anyone else?

Is there need to be more mindful of our own position rather than the position of others?

If you view our universe as a snow globe (one of those shake 'em and watch the snow settle paperweight thingys),
it seems entirely within our grasp to measure and discover all the workings therein.

I'm interested to know what's outside and whether we'll ever comprehend that bit.

If it isn't finite and goes on forever, we're left with the human questions of why, how and what for.
If it was a chance event that something came from nothing it goes against our causal way of thinking.

Wish I could be around when we crack that one, but fear I'll go to my grave as bewildered as I am now 😉

molgrips - Member

I think that if there is a God, he's some kind of scientist who's fired a couple of particles into his trans-dimenstional accelerator to create the Big Bang and is now watching it with interest from outside. Maybe a raised eyebrow.

A sick experiment. The lab door will be jemmied open by an ethical direct action group to liberate our particles any time now.

Either that or because the universe is so imperfect it could only have been created following instructions from the executive board of the General Universe Company.

Yeah, or maybe we're a beta version.

molgrips - Member
From his mates, maybe, if he wasn't upset by it.

cobblers (with all due respect) if he truly believed in something that wasn't a recognised religion most people would right royally rip the piss

They might well do. SHOULD they though?

I suspect that is where some of us differ. I would not rip the piss out of someone who was being upset by it. Why? What does that achieve?

I think there is an energy that makes us what we are, we get to use it how we want, at some point that energy leaves, what its called and where it goes, who knows.

lazybike - Member

I think there is an energy that makes us what we are, we get to use it how we want, at some point that energy leaves, what its called and where it goes, who knows.

Some times it feels like a school playground where some people think it's all right to grossly deride, insult or bully others maybe attacking people from some imaginary high ground

As for respect it really depends. I imagine no one speaks like this to actual people about religion in the real world. I have friends who are deep of faith and , on balance, I tend to admire the way they try to live their life by a moral code. They tend to be very nice folk however that belief is not real or a good one.

. It's not hard to respect the personhood of someone else.

you may also want to have a read up on what religion says about non believers or what it has historically done to those who disagree with them and its not exactly nice or tolerant. That argument cuts both ways IMHO

I dont find being told I am a sinner who is going to hell for not following their rules all that nice tbh - would you say it is nice or respectful?

SHOULD they though?

Look at David Icke/ alex Jones and conspiracists types/ westbro baptist church - should we respect their beliefs because they are sincere or point out how ludicrous they are and challenge them?

Bloody hell we do it when folk claim 650 b brings the trail alive - now they may actually believe that but it seem ok to take the piss , a little at least, about this

I love those...

Should the ridiculousness of Melvin's beliefs be of any importance or concern to anyone else?

Yes, I think they should be of concern to others. As an Employee of Melvin, or a co-worker of Melvin, I'd be concerned that I was employing or working with someone who came to fundamentally irrational decisions on the evidence presented to them.
Likewise the likes of Blair declaring that they decide to go into Irag because God told them to is deeply worrying to me.

lazybike - Member
I think there is an energy that makes us what we are, we get to use it how we want, at some point that energy leaves, what its called and where it goes, who knows.

Me, I don't know one way or the other, which must make me an Agnostic, but when in trouble I can't help myself pray God Help me, sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't. I bet everyone here if we were in a plane together and it was about to crash, would join me..

I would meditate to find inner calm so that when i was reincarnated i did not return with fear

or I would try and join the mile high club 😉

I would probably shit my pants and just be sacred as I awaited death but I would not be praying

I wonder how many agnostics invoke the name of god during orgasm...

IanMunro - Member

Likewise the likes of Blair declaring that they decide to go into Irag because God told them to is deeply worrying to me.

Its not the atheists on the imaginery high ground

There is no high ground - hence why it is imaginary. No high ground for either side.

As for respect it really depends. I imagine no one speaks like this to actual people about religion in the real world.

Why the double standards here then? This is the 'real world'. The people here are 'actual' and just as deserving of consideration.

that belief is not real or a good one.

I suggest that is not for you to judge no matter which side of the debate you are on.

Depends what they belief - Hitler - forgive the goodwin - should i respect him by default?

Ethically,you are on a slippery slope with this attitude. If you can't see why already (which your statement suggests) then I cannot illuminate you further.

I also think you are confusing our attitude towards their faith and our attitude towards them

Perhaps it is the way people have articulated their points which leads to my perspective.

you may also want to have a read up on what religion says about non believers or what it has historically done to those who disagree with them and its not exactly nice or tolerant. That argument cuts both ways IMHO

Do you honestly think I am ignorant of this...?

I dont find being told I am a sinner who is going to hell for not following their rules all that nice tbh - would you say it is nice ?

SHOULD they though?

No.

I dont know should ludicrous ideas be left unchallenged ?

Challenge is hugely different from ridicule.

Look at David Icke/ alex Jones and conspiracists types/ westbro baptist church - should we respect their beliefs because they are sincere or point out how ludicrous they are and challenge them?

I think challenge is appropriate. I don't think stopping respecting the humanity of people based on their beliefs is defensible.

Bloody hell we do it when folk claim 650 b brings the trail alive - now they may actually believe that but it seem ok to take the piss , a little at least, about this

Look I am fine with debate on the trifling matter of religion Vs. atheism. Wheel size is life or death - let's not get into that, it gets too emotive...

Wait.. What? Where did that happen? Looked like mostly atheists dishing it out, I thought.

Well there were a couple of choice phrases such as

Wait.. What? Where did that happen? Looked like mostly atheists dishing it out, I thought.

Which in the context of the post I took to mean an insult to those of us who were questioning the the entire concept of god and an afterlife. The of course there is the perennial "militant atheist" jibe which is always a fun insult to hear. Don't get me wrong I am by no means saying that there wasn't plenty of back and forward but it is disingenuous at best to imply that it was all one way traffic and that was the point of my post. I also couldn't resist the "forgive us" quote Bill Hick really was a genius.

It is also a common trait to try and present the theistic viewpoint as being somehow oppressed and a persecuted and injured minority whose beliefs deserve special treatment when in fact nothing could be further from the truth. Theistic belief is the majority stand point and already occupies a privileged position in UK society and that is one thing that I would like to change (the privilege bit that is). I have no desire whatsoever to "convert" anyone to atheism, or "turn them away from god" but that does not mean that I won't criticise the teachings of those religions and nor does it mean that I won't point out the twisted logic that some of those beliefs require.

Have a read of this, puts everything into perspective

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Fabric-Cosmos-Texture-Reality/dp/0141011114

Junkyard - lazarus

I would meditate to find inner calm so that when i was reincarnated i did not return with fear

or I would try and join the mile high club

I would probably shit my pants and just be sacred as I awaited death but I would not be praying

Reincarnated? i.e present mind / soul whatever is being transferred to another body in future ... hmmm ... Which belief are you referring to exactly?

Praying before death? 😆 That's a bit too late innit if you have not lived an honest life?

cruzcampo - Member

Have a read of this, puts everything into perspective

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Fabric-Cosmos-Texture-Reality/dp/0141011114

Ask the author what is the cause of the cause of the cause of the cause of ... big bang. 🙄

Why the double standards here then?

I agree with your broad point the internet is real - it is.

I guess if a religious friend asked me about atheism I would speak as i have here but we rarely discuss it as we know we would debate/disagree/argue so why bother*?
Likewise they dont preach to me or behave as if they are in the mosque

* one did accuse of me indoctrinating my kids in to veganism - i pointed out his kids went to an Islamic school and were learning the Koran off by heart - he accepted the point graciously as we moved on - we both were/are to some degree

I do so hope that's not true, I hate than man beyond even the loathing I have for Brown, Cameron & Osbourne, where did you read that?

Well publicised at the time. I'm amazed you missed it.

Funny how it's mandatory for a US president to blather on about his imaginary friend, but if a British PM does it we all think he's mental.

You mean why do I behave differently in different contexts?
I would not say a word about atheism/how daft this all was if I were in a church at a wedding or a funeral - is that equally bad and I should have a rant about them there?

Behaviours do differ - but should the level of respect that you accord others change...? People are people, respect is respect.

I agree with your broad point the internet is real - it is.
I guess if a religious friend asked me about atheism I would speak as i have here but we rarely discuss it as we know we would debate/disagree/argue so why bother*?

I think the same holds true here. We know the way people behave and what many who contribute think already. There is no useful purpose in discussing when we know that there is no achievable consensus nor much chance of illumination.

Likewise they dont preach to me or behave as if they are in the mosque

* one did accuse of me indoctrinating my kids in to veganism - i pointed out his kids went to an Islamic school and were learning the Koran off by heart - he accepted the point graciously as we moved on - we both were/are to some degree

Your children - their children. Do as you both will.

More importantly, matters of life and death now. What wheel size do you prefer? 😉 Don't answer whatever you do leave this sacred question alone!

We know the way people behave and what many who contribute think already. There is no useful purpose in discussing when we know that there is no achievable consensus nor much chance of illumination.

Somebody says this in every religious thread. Then I point out that the religion threads on here changed my opinion on religion.

Ask the author what is the cause of the cause of the cause of the cause of ... big bang.

It could be said cause is a human concept, doe there have to be a cause? 😆

It could be said cause is a human concept

Somebody says this in every religious thread. Then I point out that the religion threads on here changed my opinion on religion.

Obviously I was wrong then!

J

Its Sunday night, so....

1)Science's ultimate and obvious purpose is to get us out of our meat bodies, and into something permanent and sustainable
2)As such, science and religion will ultimately converge
3)This will be done by making human consciousness 'one' with the 'universe'
4)We will do this
5)When we get there, we will find that others have already got there, through various means
6)Rinse and repeat

Is sunday big lebowski night in your house DUDE?

Heh heh, JY...

No.

[b]Thread closed. Thread Closed. [/b]

[img] [/img]

we will find that others have already got there, through various means

*waves*

5thElefant - Member

Funny how it's mandatory for a US president to blather on about his imaginary friend, but if a British PM does it we all think he's mental.

There's a line here, though. Acting based on your moral code of which religion is a part- ok. Acting because you believe you are the hammer of God- not so ok.

hammer of God

Led Zep content

TBH I am a really not comfortable with these tBlair and Bush sitting down to pray together for gods guidance before deciding to invade some foreign lands.

TBH I am a really not comfortable with these tBlair and Bush sitting down to pray together for gods guidance before deciding to invade some foreign lands.

Well you could look at it in another way. If this is how they behave when they think that someone will judge them for their actions; can you imagine how they would behave if they thought that they wouldn't be held to account by a higher power.

As much as anyone dislikes religion, its very good at making people think about their actions and at least try to justify them; not that it helps massively when people are deluded.

If this is how they behave when they think that someone will judge them for their actions; can you imagine how they would behave if they thought that they wouldn't be held to account by a higher power.

Well if they didn't think there was a higher power then they wouldn't have received any guidance in the first place so perhaps they might have thought a bit more as others would have held them personnally responsible with no "god told me it was okay" type excuse to hide behind. Chances are that they would still have acted in the same way no matter what as they would still be the same people.

Well if they didn't think there was a higher power then they wouldn't have received any guidance in the first place so perhaps they might have thought a bit more as others would have held them personnally responsible with no "god told me it was okay" type excuse to hide behind. Chances are that they would still have acted in the same way no matter what as they would still be the same people.

Considering they do truly *believe*, I don't think your right.

You are seem to think that someone who is a one-in-a-billion, who has achieved pretty much as much power and influence as is possible on this planet; thinks that the opinion of anyone other than their direct peers matters. Not forgetting that 50% of the population has below average intelligence and the other 50% would never be able to agree on anything.

Whereas a *god* if definitely above them on the pecking order, so his opinion and favour is something that's worth having. If a *god* wasn't there holding them to account then the only thing holding them back would be their own morals, which without the guidance of religion could be pretty skewed (more-so than they are now!)

One common thing I've noted with very vocal Atheists, seems to be a huge disconnection between how much their opinion matters, and how much they think it matters; as they seem to really struggle with how insignificant most of us are, and how if we went away tomorrow not that many people would really care or even notice...... which history tells us isn't true for former presidents or prime ministers.......

One common thing I've noted with very vocal [s]Atheists[/s] god botherers, seems to be a huge disconnection between how much their opinion matters, and how much they think it matters

Just saying, lyk... 🙄

Hasn't every war in history been faught under the pretence of the will of god. Why change now?

Was thinking about putting "very vocal in their opinion" rather than Atheists, but I don't think its true, as if someone has a strong faith (aka god botherer) then they get the whole, we don't count for much in the big picture.

You really need to quote until the full stop otherwise you can completely change the context of a statement.

Anyway, I am still interested in seeing how people think around the: no god = infinite universe = something before big bang = something existed outside of time, space, matter and energy which defies all Law's of Physics. Argument.

Also what's your thinking on how did multiple cultures with zero contact with each other, without any shared culture or experiences come to the same conclusion about a *god* and leave evidence from ~40,000 years ago illustrating their faith?

I am personally really happy to change my mind, and have done in the past; however I need a bit more than "your stupid if you don't believe what I believe, argument"

Hasn't every war in history been faught under the pretence of the will of god. Why change now?

Ummm, I suspect that isn't true.

Or else the Chinese and Russian communist parties would never have gone to war; and I am assuming you are familiar with minor event called the second world war.

One common thing I've noted with very vocal Atheists, seems to be a huge disconnection between how much their opinion matters, and how much they think it matters; as they seem to really struggle with how insignificant most of us are, and how if we went away tomorrow not that many people would really care or even notice

Sorry buy that is garbage. Most atheists know full well just how insignificant we as humans are, it's those of a more theistic mindset that consider humans to be in any way special.

and I am assuming you are familiar with minor event called the second world war.

Umm you are aware of hitler's belief in his "devine right"?

if someone has a strong faith (aka god botherer) then they get the whole, we don't count for much in the big picture.

Surely the religious think the creator of the whole universe cares enough about them as individuals to have a personal relationship with them? Whereas most atheists would agree that we're a brief assemblage of carbon atoms on an insignificant lump of rock orbiting a pretty mediocre star?

Also what's your thinking on how did multiple cultures with zero contact with each other, without any shared culture or experiences come to the same conclusion about a *god* and leave evidence from ~40,000 years ago illustrating their faith?

I think it goes something like:

We evolved to survive on the plains of Africa and something which was previously a useful survival trait has warped over time to become the religions we know today.

Religions evolve over time ([url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme#Religion ]hence Dawkins coming up with the idea of memes[/url]) and so the early 'beliefs' of our common ancestors (Sun worship and fertility gods?) have become modern religions.

You can either view the similarities between religions as 'proof' they're all describing the same thing, or as proof that they're all founded on, and evolved from, the same mistaken belief.

The key thing is, these cultures did have a shared background: it's not that long ago, in evolutionary terms, that humanity was on the brink of extinction and were only a very small number of individuals in Africa.

Richc - have you not met the atheist Stasi before? 😉

(you missed the bit about having the last word BTW).

Umm you are aware of hitler's belief in his "devine right"?

“It is to wage war, by sea, land and air, with all our might and with all the strength that God can give us" Churchill.

Was thinking about putting "very vocal in their opinion" rather than Atheists, but I don't think its true, as if someone has a strong faith (aka god botherer) then they get the whole, we don't count for much in the big picture.

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.

You really need to quote until the full stop otherwise you can completely change the context of a statement.

One common thing I've noted with very vocal Atheists, seems to be a huge disconnection between how much their opinion matters, and how much they think it matters; as they seem to really struggle with how insignificant most of us are, and how if we went away tomorrow not that many people would really care or even notice......

I don't have that "struggle" myself - I'm no more or less insignificant than anything else in the universe, including the universe itself of which I am a part, and haven't noticed it in other Atheists. Can you provide an example?

“It is to wage war, by sea, land and air, with all our might and with all the strength that God can give us" Churchill.

One common thing I've noted with very vocal Atheists, seems to be a huge disconnection between how much their opinion matters, and how much they think it matters; as they seem to really struggle with how insignificant most of us are

We evolved to survive on the plains of Africa and something which was previously a useful survival trait has warped over time to become the religions we know today.

Religions evolve over time (hence Dawkins coming up with the idea of memes) and so the early 'beliefs' of our common ancestors (Sun worship and fertility gods?) have become modern religions.

Their is absolutely no evidence of people coming out of Africa with Shaman beliefs, and I've never read anything implying this; is this just your opinion or have you read other sources? As I would be interested to read into it.

I seem to remember first documented evidence of humans worshipping a god/gods/spirits is around 40,000 years ago, which is a long time after leaving Africa (circa 200,000 years ago) and I believe there was earlier evidence of humans but none of it appears to contain references to worshipping a *god*. Hence the oddity of multiple cultures all moving towards the same beliefs without influencing each other or evening knowing about other groups ideas. Unless you believe that its a shared belief from a group which was suppressed for 160,000 years before everyone thought that their might be something in that.

Umm you are aware of hitler's belief in his "devine right"?

So seeing as people are back on the thread, can people comment on this:

Anyway, I am still interested in seeing how people think around the: no god = infinite universe = something before big bang = something existed outside of time, space, matter and energy which defies all Law's of Physics. Argument.

As I've heard a few people argue for and against it, but have never heard anything convincing.

Their is absolutely no evidence of people coming out of Africa with Shaman beliefs

They (presumably) had [i]some[/i] beliefs. These have 'mutated' over time to lead to reincarnation, transubstantiation, Devagana living in the anus, etc.

It's slightly harder to pin down than genetic evolution, because there's cross fertilization between religions and so on, but you could picture them like the tree of life, but with religion. Some religions have more obvious common ancestors than others (like the monotheistic Abrahamic religions) and some memes might die out completely or be deliberately subverted/adapted by [s]fraudsters *cough*Mormonism*cough*[/s] revelations from God so there will be dead ends and cross links and so on which don't happen in genetic evolution.

Thing is we don't know that, and even if they did all leave Africa with a common belief/idea (which is a massive leap of faith, and is based on zero scientific evidence) don't you think that after 160,000 years of separate evolution of belief that is highly unlikely their beliefs would be so similar if its all based around handed down verbal history?

If you think about it logically. If this wasn't about god, and was instead about passing down verbal history would you expect the stories to be remotely similar after 160,000 years, and being told by ~5500 generation? To me, that seems as likely as a bloke sitting on a cloud watching our every move.

NB: The 200,000 years part is taken from a book I read recently about evolution, but no one really knows when it happened, it could have been as recent as 50,000 years and as long ago at 300,000 years. It bandied around 200,000 years, as it seems that as technology moves on we get better at dating "stuff" everything is older than we thought.

So 160,000 years of separation could actually be between 10,000 years and 260,000 years. 100,000 might be a more reasonable number for me to use; so apologies for that........

“It is to wage war, by sea, land and air, with all our might and with all the strength that God can give us" Churchill.

People spoke about God differently in different times. Back then it was part of general society, so people used God as a rhetorical device as much as anything else.

don't you think that after 160,000 years of separate evolution of belief that is highly unlikely their beliefs would be so similar if its all based around handed down verbal history?

Are many religions particularly similar? The Abrahamic religions are, but they all originated in the same place 4000 years ago so that's to be expected.

Perhaps it's convergent evolution?

The octopus eye and the mammalian eye are very similar, even though their common ancestor didn't have an eye. Koalas and humans both have fingerprints, but their common ancestors do not. In places without a large mammalian predator, other animals fill that niche.

Perhaps there are certain cultural/belief niches that are filled in a memetically convergent way?

From my very limited understanding, the early cave painting from all around the world make references to shaman worship, and are all very similar, to the point where it make coincidence extremely unlikely; but nothing is impossible. Recent changes, could be to do with our population being so huge and the amount of cross pollination of ideas or it could be something else.

I've always though of genetic evolution and social evolution to be very different things, as we are bound by genes which can't be fundamentally changed, as easily opinions or beliefs.

Unless you feel that *belief* is a genetic trait, which leads into the genetic memory theories....... which is a massive can of worms

Ah, so all the current religions are wrong, but those guys got it right?