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^^^
The use of this particular Playbook by Israel is disgusting and ironic in equal measure.
This is short clip is several months old but it is really worth watching imo as Rachel Shabi, an Israeli born Jewish reporter, is so passionate in the face of absurd zionist claims.
I think due to the horrific atrocities carried out by israel, they are now probably the most hated country on Earth.
The facts behind Gordon Brown's article in yesterday's Guardian are utterly heartbreaking:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/08/hearts-breaking-children-gaza-tomorrow-peace
Eighty-five percent of parents report that their children have gone at least one whole day without food, and now 346,000 children under five need supplementary food and nutrients, with at least 50,000 suffering from acute malnutrition.
More than 40% of families in Gaza have been caring for children who are not their own. In all, 20,000 children have been orphaned, are unaccompanied or are separated from their families. Six out of 10 children in some camps have developed stammering and other communication-related issues.
Satellite images captured by the Global Education Cluster in July revealed that 93% of schools have sustained some level of damage, and 85% will need to be reconstructed.
In some ways the children killed by the IDF are the lucky ones.
When you add to that the fact the Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu has refers to Palestinians as, quote, “human animals”
He's a repulsive man but he didn't say that, as the article you link to makes clear. If you're going to link to something off-site instead of making a reasoned argument, at least read it first.
If you’re going to link to something off-site instead of making a reasoned argument, at least read it first.
And if you are going to correct me and point out that it wasn't actually Benjamin Netanyahu who made the "human animals" comment how about making it clear who did say it?
It is not as if the comment wasn't made by an Israeli political and that it doesn't feed into the narrative that dehumanises Palestinians and considers them less than human. Or did you want to pretend that the comment was never made?
Yes it was his Defence Minister and fellow Likud party member Yoav Gallant who made the "human animals" quote. Netanyahu himself appears in South Africa’s lawsuit for mentioning, in more than one speech, Amalek, the enemy nation of the Israelites in the Bible and which God asked King Saul to exterminate.
then the dehumanisation of Palestinians is complete and killing a five year old little girl is seen as justifiable.
I would imagine that referring to Jews as sons and uncles of monkeys and pigs, and the [Arabic] rhyme "Palestine is our land and Jews are our dogs" is what enabled some of them to justify the 7th Oct attack. There is equally disgusting racist and dehumanising discourse from all.
Netanyahu himself appears in South Africa’s lawsuit for mentioning, in more than one speech, Amalek, the enemy nation of the Israelites in the Bible and which God asked King Saul to exterminate.
...But of course the connection between Palestinians and Amalek is nothing at all, apart from being convenient for (the non-religious) Netanyahu to play the religious aspect.
If anything, biblically speaking the Palestinians would have descended from Ishmael (Abraham's son, generally viewed as the father of the Arab people) and not Amalek. There is no religious commandment of any sort re. Ishmael, and anyway the commandment to (physically) wipe out Amalek does not apply nowadays.
(A little further reading for anyone interested here or here)
There is equally disgusting racist and dehumanising discourse from all.
Whatabout not having a competition to find the most disgusting racist comment and focusing on what the Israeli prime minister and his cabinet ministers have actually said?
Or are we saying that the dehumanising racist language of the far-right Israeli government is okay because they too have been the target of racism from unknown parties?
No I didn't think so.
(A little further reading for anyone interested here or here)
I am sure that the International Court of Justice will read all the available information on the comments made by Benjamin Netanyahu before passing judgement.
You have to assume that South African's lawyers are confident that Netanyahu has a case to answer with regards to the language that he has used, hence their direct reference to it.
Because all the community leaders engaged in this conflict have used the language of hate to make it easier for all their supporters to dehumanise and 'other' each other, until they've reached this maximalist position.
Or are we saying
Is this you putting word into people's mouth again? I though you ignored posts you don't agree with, it's what you tell everyone else to do after all.
Is this you putting word into people’s mouth again?
I asked the question and then answered it myself....."No I didn’t think so".
We are not saying that the dehumanising racist language of the far-right Israeli government is okay because they too have been the target of racism from unknown parties, so why even mention it ?
Where are the words you feel are being but into your mouth?
The senseless slaughter of Palestinian children is disgusting - read Gordon Brown's article in yesterday's Guardian, so is the vile language of far-right Israeli politicians.
But some people would apparently rather detract from that and discuss semantics instead. ffs
I am sure that the International Court of Justice will read all the available information on the comments made by Benjamin Netanyahu before passing judgement.
You have to assume that South African’s lawyers are confident that Netanyahu has a case to answer with regards to the language that he has used, hence their direct reference to it.
I don't quite understand what you mean to say by this, have you misunderstood me as defending Netanyahu?
All I was saying was that from the Jewish point of view, Amalek has nothing to do with this. Netanyahu is for sure making genocidal comments, but if he's saying there's some sort of religious motivation to wipe out Palestinians, there isn't. He's either clueless or making it up for his own ends.
The links were purely provided in case someone was interested (in the commandment of destroying Amalek and why it doesn't apply in our times) and were not directly related to anything in Gaza.
have you misunderstood me as defending Netanyahu?
No, not at all, there is no one on stw who is prepared to defend Netanyahu - that has been obvious for quite a while. Which is hardly surprising when you consider what is happening in Gaza under his premiership.
He is however surprisingly popular in Israel:
Netanyahu is once again the most popular politician in Israel
But some people would apparently rather detract from that and discuss semantics instead. ffs
It's not your thread to dictate who says what about anything. It's not distracting or derailing the thread from the universal condemnation of Netanyahu's disgusting actions to speak or discuss more widely about the fact that language over the years from both communities leaderships have undoubtedly contributed to the situation that everyone in the region finds themselves in now.
the situation that everyone in the region finds themselves in now.
The situation in which 50,000 Palestinians find themselves dead, and 50,000 Israelis don't, you mean ?
It’s not your thread to dictate who says what about anything.
What the **** are you on about? I am expressing an opinion - deal with it.
Tens of thousands of children have been slaughtered, countless more have had life-changing injuries and have become orphans, and instead of focusing on the horrors of that, and the fact that it is still going on, some people want to engage in whataboutry and petty point scoring.
You can say whatever you damn well like, but reading Gordon Brown's article about the tragic plight of Palestinian children, at the hands of a far-right racist government led by a brutal psychopath, without the "yeah, but what about blah blah blah" is also an option.
I highlighted the choice made : some people would apparently rather detract from that and discuss semantics instead.
An interesting comment here by an Israeli historian whose family were deeply affected by the alleged actions of Mossad.
Avi Shlaim says he has 'proof of Zionist involvement' in 1950s attack on Iraqi Jews
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/avi-shlaim-proof-israel-zionist-involvement-iraq-jews-attacks
Shlaim unveils in his book "undeniable proof of Zionist involvement in the terrorist attacks" which prompted a mass exodus of Jews from Iraq between 1950 and 1951.
Shocking but perhaps it shouldn't come as a great suprise from a project which brought us the "Hannibal Directive".
This is just dismal from you, @ernielynch. It's bollocks from any angle, and even more so on the opaquely-funded Middle East Eye.
Jews had already suffered persecution and maltreatment since the 30s, including earlier bombings, killings, a horrific pogrom, legal restrictions, boycotts, sackings, and more before the bombings Avi Shlaim talks about took place. More than half the Jewish population of Iraq had already either left or registered to emigrate, so these bombings were rather late, to say the least, if they were in an Israeli inside job.
The Jewish part of my family are from Iraq, so I know the history and stories. Even if Shlaim is right, and there's very little evidence of this, those bombings are a drop in the ocean of what caused Iraqi Jews to flee.
EDIT: I realise the above was just another deflection, perhaps because you'd had a strop at nickc in the post before, but I didn't want to let that nonsense go unchallenged.
I didn’t want to let that nonsense go unchallenged.
You do realise that you are challenging an Israeli historian who is Jewish Iraqi, not me, don't you? I am sure that Avi Shlaim is aware of bombings, killings, a horrific pogrom, legal restrictions, boycotts, sackings, and more.
This is just dismal from you
What is..... posting a link to an article by an Israeli historian? Why, he is the wrong sort of Jew? I didn't write the article.
My only comment was that it sounds shocking, but then as I pointed out the Hannibal Directive is also shocking so it shouldn't come as a great surprise.
Any comment about the Hannibal Directive btw? Or is any discussion connected to the behaviour of Israel which you don't approve of a "deflection".
I find your posts pretty "dismissal" too btw, like other zionist supporters you don't want to focus on the horrors perpetrated by an apartheid regime which commits war crimes and crimes against humanity on a daily basis.
@benos and everyone else.
Give up.
You'll have a more productive and I dare say more enjoyable evening repeatedly slamming your dick in a drawer than engaging with him.
He's a master at what he does and if theres one thing I've learned in life it's that you will never beat a master baiter.
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/one-day-in-october
Channel 4 program today about the terror attacks of 7 October.
Thats basically israeli propaganda, because what we'll never have broadcast is the pictures and films of the aftermath of israeli missile strikes on family homes.
A few of those showing Palestinian families blown apart or small children having limbs amputated without anesthetic and support for israel would curl up and die.
what we’ll never have broadcast is the pictures and films of the aftermath of israeli missile strikes on family homes
I’m guessing you don’t watch Channel4 news much?
So yesterday the Guardian published an article by former Labour leader Gordon Brown in which he claims that nearly one million children in Gaza have been displaced, and that there is one toilet per 850 people.
Gordon Brown goes on to claim that 85% of parents report that their children have gone at least one whole day without food and that at least 50,000 children are suffering from acute malnutrition.
He then goes on to say that more than 4O% of families in Gaza have been caring for children who are not their own. 20,000 children have been orphaned. And 60% of children in some camps have developed stammering and other communication issues.
I post a link to Gordon Brown's article and what he suggests should be done but those who otherwise have so much to say suddenly have nothing to say. Other than accuse me of "deflection"........ the thread is about Gaza, the clue is in the title that Mark gave it.
And then squirrelking turns up and talks about "repeatedly slamming your dick in a drawer", and makes an oh so funny "master baiter" comment, that's his contribution. Not stw at its finest.
An Israeli Attack on Iran's Nuclear Sites Would Push Tehran to Build a Bomb
An interesting article well worth reading imo, I certainly had no idea about claims such as this:
Iran is still hesitating – for political and possibly also for religious reasons – about producing a bomb and becoming a nuclear power for all intents and purposes. Iran is not a nuclear state because it hasn't yet firmly decided whether it's in its interest to become one. If it was determined to become a full nuclear state, it would have reached this goal long ago, yet it still prefers to remain a nuclear threshold state.
Edit: And particularly this :
Iran is only a step away from the bomb – weeks or even days until it can explode a nuclear device.
Days?
I find your posts pretty “dismissal” too btw, like other zionist supporters you don’t want to focus on the horrors perpetrated by an apartheid regime which commits war crimes and crimes against humanity on a daily basis.
That's all that you and DrJ want to focus on and you use it to try to close differences in opinion down
It doesn't promote useful discussion toward the very thing that everyone here wants; stopping bloodshed and a satisfactory peace for all in the region
Iran is only a step away from the bomb – weeks or even days until it can explode a nuclear device.
Iran was close to "breakout time" in April so that isn't surprising. Iran's programme accelerated after the 2018 decision by President Trump to break a 2015 agreement to limit Iran's nuclear programme in exchange for lifting sanctions.
Constantly focusing on a single issue, Gaza, ignores the entire region and bemoaning perceived inaction by the west to limit Israel increases the likelihood of a second Trump Presidency.
Who would you prefer, Harris or Trump?
I find your posts pretty “dismissal” too btw, like other zionist supporters you don’t want to focus on the horrors perpetrated by an apartheid regime which commits war crimes and crimes against humanity on a daily basis.
No one is wanting to remove focus from Israeli war crimes here. It's by far the biggest and worst part of this whole situation at the moment.
This however does not mean it's the only focus, nor that discussing other things reduces the importance of this aspect.
When you post something highlighting (for example) a horrific war crime, there's not much anything constructive anyone can post except 10 posts of agreement along the lines of "oh dear how terrible". I think you can take silence as agreement much of the time. On the other hand when you post something contentious, then you get people picking up on that and discussing it. It may lead to a little perceived bias if you look at the posts here sometimes but it is NOT bias, unless you consider any discussion of anything other than Israeli war crimes to be supporting Zionism (as hinted by your "like other zionist supporters" dig)
("You" above meaning anyone, not "you" specifically. Just mostly 😉 )
An Israeli Attack on Iran’s Nuclear Sites Would Push Tehran to Build a Bomb (etc)
Interesting. I thought that the main thing holding Iran back (time-wise) was the enrichment of uranium, which has to be done to a much higher percentage for weapons than for power, and takes a long time.
If it's true that they could have a bomb ready within weeks/days then that implies they already have enough purified uranium for this already made and waiting.
That’s all that you and DrJ want to focus on and you use it to try to close differences in opinion down
I want to focus on the ongoing slaughter of innocent people. I'm not going to apologise for that. Differences of opinion around peripheral topics can be interesting and informative but they do tend to normalise the atrocities we are witness to, so they're hard to address appropriately.
It doesn’t promote useful discussion toward the very thing that everyone here wants; stopping bloodshed and a satisfactory peace for all in the region
The bloodshed can stop when the people doing the killing stop. It's that simple.
Who would you prefer, Harris or Trump?
For a Palestinian, what difference would it make?
That’s all that you and DrJ want to focus on and you use it to try to close differences in opinion down
You do realise that it you who is constantly challenging me and DrJ, not the other way round, don't you? Everything you post on this thread appears to be a challenge, nothing seems to be anything other than a reaction.
I constantly post stuff which is totally unconnected to any previous comments by anyone, for example the Gordon Brown article about Gaza in the Guardian, how about commenting on that? It is clear that Gordon Brown made an effort and did a lot of research for that article, and it's about "Gaza", the subject matter of this thread.
I agree that there is an attempt to shut down the debate but it clearly isn't me and DrJ who are responsible for that.
Constantly focusing on a single issue, Gaza
Mark started this thread to discuss Gaza, any deviation is classed as "deflection" by Israel's supporters on this thread, focusing on Gaza is now dismissed as not practical. I think we can safely say that some people would much rather no discussion at all took place.
Here's that article again btw
Today, our hearts are breaking for the children of Gaza. Tomorrow, we must give them peace | Gordon Brown https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/08/hearts-breaking-children-gaza-tomorrow-peace?CMP=share_btn_url
Mark started this thread to discuss Gaza, any deviation is classed as “deflection” by Israel’s supporters on this thread, focusing on Gaza is now dismissed as not practical. I think we can safely say that some people would much rather no discussion at all took place.
Should we open a new thread to discuss Lebanon, Iran, Yemen and the whole rest of the current Middle East situation apart from Gaza? It makes sense to keep it all here IMO.
Also, please stop painting anyone who disagrees as Israel/Zionist supporters.
I constantly post stuff which is totally unconnected to any previous comments by anyone, for example the Gordon Brown article about Gaza in the Guardian, how about commenting on that?
I have read the article, it's a horrendous situation and I fully agree it needs to be sorted out properly and will have effects for a long time.
My wife works as a therapist, a lot of that is dealing with childhood trauma. Even seemingly small events can affect people in later life to quite a large degree. I also have 5 young children of my own and find it hard to even think about some of the things that are happening over there.
Although let's not also forget that child casualties would quite a bit smaller if Hamas et al would stop using children as human shields, child soldiers and tunnel workers. Hamas themselves are on the UN's list for violating children's rights (as are Israel, of course).
But Israel are worser, so let's ignore this.
how about commenting on that?
But this is you still trying to dominate and direct the conversation. You'll either ignore or accuse others of diverting the thread away from the very specific things that you want to discuss if they dare say things or link to articles that don't align with your own views and opinions. Then insist that we all comment on the things that you do bring to the discussion and complain and accuse everyone of being a Zionist shill if we don't.
Iran is only a step away from the bomb – weeks or even days until it can explode a nuclear device.
Days?
It is just another way of justifying a preemptive strike. i.e. prepare the public opinion to be on their side before they strike, then after the strike they would announce their success in eliminating the threats and the world will be in "peace" again.
From what we’ve seen thus far, a nuclear armed israel is the real danger.
It is a real danger and they will use it like USA (atomic) in the past. It is also another way of trying to establish themselves as the regional hegemon mimicking the US concept of "Monroe Doctrine" , where they exert their dominance . They need to eliminate all potential "threats" from the region so will arm themselves heavily.
Who would you prefer, Harris or Trump?
Different side of the same coin.
Jews had already suffered persecution and maltreatment since the 30s, including earlier bombings, killings, a horrific pogrom, legal restrictions, boycotts, sackings, and more before the bombings Avi Shlaim talks about took place.
I once asked my Jewish colleague why they have been persecuted throughout history, he never gave me an answer. I was curious because there must be something that triggered the persecution.
But this is you still trying to dominate and direct the conversation. You’ll either ignore or accuse others of diverting the thread away from the very specific things that you want to discuss if they dare say things or link to articles that don’t align with your own views and opinions. Then insist that we all comment on the things that you do bring to the discussion and complain and accuse everyone of being a Zionist shill if we don’t.
What on earth has that ^^ got to do with Gaza? And you are accusing me of diverting the thread, seriously?
Some random thoughts floating around my brain that may or may not make sense:
- If Iran are days away from making a bomb, why don't they just make it but keep it secret? It's not like they have to declare "we are now a nuclear nation"
- "From what we’ve seen thus far, a nuclear armed israel is the real danger." Well they've had it for the last 50-60 years and not nuked anyone yet.
- If Israel had not been suspected of having nuclear weapons, would it still exist now or would its neighbours have attacked in force (again) years ago?
- I wonder what the plausible deniability would be for Israel to nuke Iran's nuclear sites and say "wow, what a big explosion our conventional bomb caused, must've been their bombs going up, tut tut"
Also, please stop painting anyone who disagrees as Israel/Zionist supporters.
Of course not. Me and DrJ have strongly disagreed on this thread but it would be daft to accuse him of being an Israel/zionist supporter.
I call people who support Israel and zionism Israel/zionist supporters, people like yourself. I am not sure what the purpose of you suggesting that you don't support Israel and zionism is, you obviously do. Even if you don't support everything about the current government.
Anyway let's stick to the issue of Palestine.
"I would never do that", then immediately does that.