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After a year of this I am dismayed to say that each day I wake up to find the whole situation in Gaza more shit, more desperate than I ever beleived it could be 48 hours beforehand.
50,000 and counting killed. A million suffering from hunger and disease. I’m struggling to see the “white” bit.
Struggling to see the white, compared to that? Fair enough.
Struggling to see any white at all? No.
Struggling to see the white compared to that, and therefore making yourself blind to the possibility of there being any white? No.
Just because the black may be more than the white does not mean you need to focus exclusively on that.
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor" - Desmond Tutu
There is only one oppressor currently in Gaza killing thousands of men, women, and children, it's that black and white.
Not at all. Pretty stupid to store it in their basement.
From someone whose stated intention is not to play down deaths, that response is saddening.
There are no excuses for what the Israeli government is doing in Gaza. There is no need to paint Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis or the Iranian regime as whiter than white to make that point though… the lies aren’t needed. The horrific attacks all these groups carry out shouldn’t be whitewashed.
There is no need to paint Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis or the Iranian regime as whiter than white to make that point though… the lies aren’t needed. The horrific attacks all these groups carry out shouldn’t be whitewashed.
I don't see anyone doing that, but to suggest that their attacks are remotely comparable to what the Israelis are doing is next-level whataboutery. The casualty figures speak for themselves - there's really nothing else needs saying.
there’s really nothing else needs saying
When it comes to peace in the region, then everyone actively involved in conflict, bombing and hostage taking are part of the problem, and can't be ignored when hoping for resolutions.
Did anyone read the "long" essay by Naomi Klein in the guardian at the weekend?, it's an involved read (30 mins) but worth setting time to see it to the end, she's received quite a vitriolic response for the essay and her reading of the situation in Israel
How Israel has made trauma a weapon of war
From someone whose stated intention is not to play down deaths, that response is saddening
Fair enough that was perhaps overly flippant, I apologise. It was an annoyed response to a post completely ignoring my message and reinforcing that some people refuse point blank to see two sides.
Look, I am not neutral here and nor am I comparing deaths on either side. Anyway, in what world is "neutral" defined as "able to see that perhaps the oppressed is not 100% perfect and the oppressor is not 100% evil"?
Say it's 99% if you like. It's still not black and white.
Nobody is 100% evil, or 100% good. Now we've established that profound truth, then what ?
Iran also recently elected a “moderate” president, there was an opportunity to perhaps use a bit more carrot and less stick to bring Iran in line, I think that would also have not been good for the current Israeli governments objectives, so probably also figured into their thinking in expanding the conflict.
Iran is a theocracy and Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei outranks the president. He has a 25+ year track record of preventing more moderate presidents from carrying through changes to international detente, the national economy and civil rights. Iran is 153rd/167 in the The Democracy Index https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-29115464
Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who also appoints the head of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, has previously called Israel a "cancerous tumour" that "will undoubtedly be uprooted and destroyed" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68811276
His appearance leading Friday prayer is significant; he hasn't done that since 2020 and is facing both Israel and domestic discontent, e.g. suppression of womens' rights and the 2022 death of Mahsa (Jina) Amini in the custody of Iran’s morality police https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/06/26/unveiling-resistance-struggle-womens-rights-iran
We'll never know if you're right, but it's never as simple as "if only" 🙂
Nobody is 100% evil, or 100% good. Now we’ve established that profound truth, then what ?
1) Accept that it's possible to talk about the good or positive points of Israel, or the negative points of Hamas/Hezbollah/whoever.
2) Accept that neither side always tells the truth, or always lies.
3) Accept that both sides sometimes tell the truth and it's worth listening to.
4) Accept that it's possible to somewhat support and condemn both sides without being either neutral or solely "with" one side.
I daresay there's plenty more.
All of the above can be both reversed and looked at in varying degrees. For example: everyone's very quick to instantly dismiss anything Israel says as lies, and instantly believe anything any Hamas run organisation says, without any sort of verification or checking. Maybe they're usually right? That's not the point. (It's probably a mix anyway, from both)
If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor” – Desmond Tutu
I'm not sure anyone is even trying to be neutral. Everyone is saying all sides must stop, unless someone can show me a quote to prove me wrong.
My condemnation of the suffering and crimes inflicted by both sides doesn't make me "neutral", which seems to be the inference some posters are taking from such comments?
1) Accept that it’s possible to talk about the good or positive points of Israel, or the negative points of Hamas/Hezbollah/whoever.
So we should caveat any discussion of Nazism by noting that Hitler was a pretty good painter ? Absurd.
For example: everyone’s very quick to instantly dismiss anything Israel says as lies, and instantly believe anything any Hamas run organisation says, without any sort of verification or checking
That's clearly not the case. The BBC always refer to the Gaza Health Ministry as "Hamas-run", with the implication that their statistics are in doubt, despite a track record of providing accurate statistics. On the other hand Israeli claims of beheaded babies and whatnot are quoted as gospel.
My condemnation of the suffering and crimes inflicted by both sides doesn’t make me “neutral”, which seems to be the inference some posters are taking from such comments?
Ah, but if you condemn both sides you are equating the deaths on both sides, see.
So we should caveat any discussion of Nazism by noting that Hitler was a pretty good painter ? Absurd.
No, but if someone says "Hitler was a pretty good painter" the response should not be "ignore that, he killed millions therefore I refuse to look at his good aspects".
That’s clearly not the case. The BBC always refer to the Gaza Health Ministry as “Hamas-run”, with the implication that their statistics are in doubt, despite a track record of providing accurate statistics. On the other hand Israeli claims of beheaded babies and whatnot are quoted as gospel.
I was referring to this thread. Media bias is another subject altogether!
No, but if someone says “Hitler was a pretty good painter” the response should not be “ignore that, he killed millions therefore I refuse to look at his good aspects”.
Of course. Context is everything. If there's a thread about Auschwitz and you pop up with a comment saying we must bear in mind Hitler's painting talent I suspect you'd be criticised.
The BBC always refer to the Gaza Health Ministry as “Hamas-run”
I believe (could be wrong?) that the Hamas political wing as well as the Hezbollah political wing were reclassified in UK law to deem them as "terrorist" 4 odd years ago so any mention of them in reporting has to state this.
Tutu said apartheid in Israel was worse than in SA. Netanyahu told Max Hastings 25yrs ago his ultimate aim was to clear out Gaza and the West Bank. This didn't start on 7th Oct but in 1948.
Of course. Context is everything. If there’s a thread about Auschwitz and you pop up with a comment saying we must bear in mind Hitler’s painting talent I suspect you’d be criticised.
Oh come on. That's not remotely the same thing as what's happening here. If I was saying you must see Israel's good points in this conflict because they grow pretty flowers, then it might be comparable and you'd be correct.
I do not want this to start getting (more?) personal either or for it to turn into point scoring between us so I'm going to stop here for now, I think I got my point across well enough for those who are not determined to ignore it. I also need to do some work today 😉
"But we know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians" - Nelson Mandela
Note : Nelson Mandela was classed as a terrorist by the United States until 2008, 14 years after he became President of South Africa.
Benjamin Netanyahu has never been classed as a terrorist by the United States.
So we should caveat any discussion of Nazism by noting that Hitler was a pretty good painter ?
No, but there is plenty to be critical of the actions of the Red Army during the same period... millions of innocents caught up in the horror other people's plans.
Absurd.
Quite.
But the point is that you can be critical of the horrors the IDF are inflicting without being non-critical of the actions of Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis and the Iranian missile attacks.
Some reflection, today, about what happened a year ago, is normal and human. It doesn't make the response of the Israeli government to those events right or just. That's not "whataboutism", it's looking at the full horrible picture.
This didn’t start on 7th Oct but in 1948.
The modern day violence between the two communities arguably began with the Hebron massacre in 1929. It was a full-blown civil war by 1947, and in 1948 it became a regional war when a coalition of five Arab armies invaded with the aim of destroying the newly-formed state of Israel. They failed to do so and were defeated (the original meaning of the term "Nakba").
And of course Jordan could've kept the West Bank when they captured it in 1949, or better yet created a Palestinian state 75 years ago. Instead they annexed it for themselves, then used that very useful high ground to shell Israel in 1967.
The point is you can always go back further, or point to this or that, but what matters is the choices made in the present. Hamas chose violence a year ago today (as did Hezbollah a year ago tomorrow), and Israel then also chose violence.
So anyway, it wasn't just 1,200 Israelis who died on Oct 7 2023, it was also the West's moral authority. The legacy of the West's hypocrisy and double standards will linger in the region and throughout the Global South for generations to come.
Arming a psychopath with the most advanced weaponry in world does not come without a price.
Netanyahu 10 days ago at the United Nations :
“If Hamas stays in power, it will regroup … and attack Israel again and again and again … So Hamas has got to go,”
"This war can come to an end now. All that has to happen is for Hamas to surrender, lay down its arms and release all the hostages"
Nine days later:
IDF chief says Hamas is 'defeated'
That seems quite a leap.... from Netanyahu saying that Hamas cannot remain in power and must surrender to a few days later his IDF chief publicly announcing that Hamas has been defeated. Either Netanyahu or the IDF are not being honest with the Israeli people.
For once I think it might Netanyahu who might be closer to the truth :
Hamas fires barrage of rockets at Tel Aviv on October 7 anniversary
So after a year of pounding Gaza and making big rubble into smaller rubble Hamas still has the capacity to fire rockets at Tel Aviv.
And people believe Israeli propaganda that they have "degraded" Hezbollah's capabilities with its enormous arsenal of thousands of missiles hidden deep in the mountains of Lebanon?
The point is you can always go back further, or point to this or that, but what matters is the choices made in the present.
I sort of agree with that actually, but this:
Hamas chose violence a year ago today (as did Hezbollah a year ago tomorrow), and Israel then also chose violence.
is dishonest. Calling two things by the same name ("violence") suggests they are somehow comparable, but in this case they are quantitatively and qualitatively entirely different. To return to your first point - the choice being made every day by the Israelis is to kill more innocent people, to starve more innocent people, to degrade the environment to a point where habitation is impossible. Every day Israelis get out of bed and go and kill some more people. There isn't a level of sophistry that excuses that.
And people believe Israeli propaganda that they have “degraded” Hezbollah’s capabilities with its enormous arsenal of thousands of missiles hidden deep in the mountains of Lebanon?
Well they believed that all Iran's missiles had been shot down. Now it turns out that 30 hit a well-defended airbase. What happens when they aim at a city?
And people believe Israeli propaganda that they have “degraded” Hezbollah’s capabilities with its enormous arsenal of thousands of missiles hidden deep in the mountains of Lebanon?
That's the thing about propaganda, it often IS true, just twisted.
Have they degraded Hezbollah's capabilities? Of course. To any meaningful degree? That's the question...
Anyway, it's perfectly normal at times like this for all sides to fiddle numbers and play up their achievements etc in their reports (ie, propaganda...). Does anyone believe casualty reports coming out of Ukraine, from either side? It's slightly disingenuous to point to all this sort of thing and go on about how Israel always lies
It’s slightly disingenuous to point to all this sort of thing and go on about how Israel always lies
Even giving Israel leeway we all have to admit they do lie, quite a fair bit ,
Anyway, it’s perfectly normal at times like this for all sides to fiddle numbers and play up their achievements etc in their reports
What is definitely not normal is for one side to blatantly contradict itself. You would think that with decades of hasbara behind them that Israeli propaganda would make certain that everyone was singing from the same hymn sheet, would you not?
The Israeli prime minister stands before the United Nations declaring that the genocide in Gaza will continue until either Hamas is defeated or it surrenders.
A week later the IDF declares Hamas "defeated".
Either the IDF are publicly exposing Netanyahu as a liar or he is exposing them as liars. So why is the once slick zionist propaganda machine screwing up?
Because they frankly have no idea wtf they are doing. There is no plan. They are making it up as they go along, from day to day.
Expanding the war despite not having defeated Hamas is an act of desperation. Presumably they are hoping that things might possibly pan out in their favour, maybe the United States will get involved. The reality is that their options are very limited, "peace" isn't one of them because zionists have always chosen war before peace.
And now that the zionists project is unraveling their solution is what it has always been - war.
Presumably they are hoping that things might possibly pan out in their favour, maybe the United States will get involved.
It is Not "maybe", they are already involved. They are the ones that created the state of Israel and will forever support them, because their political apex is controlled by the strong Israel lobbyists.
United State, UK and some of the EU states will definitely get More involved in the coming years. This war will not end soon, at least not for another 100 years, and they can consider themselves lucky if this war can end in 200 years (assuming 3 generations).
As far as using WMD, the Israel and their alliance will be the first ones to use it the moment they sense defeat (escalation dominance)
Oppressors can never win in the long run no matter how much they try, unless they annihilate the population like what they did to the people of First Nation. The First Nation could not fight back as they were isolated. The Middle East, on the other hand, is an entire different story, and they will show the oppressors the boundary and that will be the boundary of the world in future.
The world is changing, war is coming and there will be hard time ahead (3 generations from now will feel it directly and hard).
Want to stop the war fast? Learn the South African way. Give the place back to the rightful people.
They are the ones that created the state of Israel and will forever support them, because their political apex is controlled by the strong Israel lobbyists.
That simply isn't true, the United States did not 'create' Israel. Nor was the US even close to Israel until after the Six Day War, in fact the US was highly critical of Israel (and Britain and France) over the 1956 Suez Crisis.
Until the Six Day War France was Israel's closest ally and main arms supplier, France helped Israel establish Israel's nuclear industry. Both France and Israel shared a common goal - the colonial subjugation of Arab peoples.
That changed in the early 1960s when the French colonialists were finally expelled from North Africa. France then embarked on a mission of establishing new friendly ties with its former Arab colonies, and the following the Six Day War placed an arms embargo on Israel.
This had a severe effect on the IDF and the United States stepped in as a provider of arms for Israel. The relationship grew as Israel became an important player in protecting "vital US interests". But for the first 20 years of Israel's existence it did not have a close relationship with the United States, in fact it was sometimes fraught.
Contrary to the anti-semitic myth that the Jewish/zionist lobby controls US policy towards Israel, and the US government does their bidding, it is the other way round - Israel is the United State's useful underling.
I do not have the slightest doubt that the United States will drop support for Israel the moment it feels that the costs of doing so exceeds the benefits they get in return. Despite all the shite sprouted by American politicians US capitalism has no emotional ties with Israel.
And worryingly for Israel US dependency on Middle East oil has dropped very dramatically in recent years,. although that is obviously not the only calculation in the geopolitical conundrums of that region.
Anyone watch Newsnight tonight?, a very vocal apologist attempting to hit all her briefing points but was well countered by the other 3 guests and Victoria Derbyshire, her utter disdain was evident in the smirks and body language
I thought it was pretty poor all round until the very end when all of them appeared to back a two state solution with admittedly varying degrees of enthusiasm. Victoria Derbyshire could not get two of the participants to shut up so much of the time was wasted as they talked over one another
France's current position was made clear by Barnier yesterday claiming "legitimate self defence" for Israel. Madame told the radio what she thought of that. If someone gives you a slap ripping both their arms off and blinding them is not legitimate defence, especially if you've been squatting their garden for decades.
A week later the IDF declares Hamas “defeated”.
ISW assessment of the current capability of Hamas broadly agrees that it is no longer able to effectively mount operations in Khan Younis and Rafah.
Anyway, it’s perfectly normal at times like this for all sides to fiddle numbers
Even if there was a +/- 30% error on 1,700 Israeli dead vs 42,000 Palestinian dead those figures still paint the same picture.
"Israel has likely defeated Hamas in Khan Younis and is in the process of doing so in Rafah"
Doesn't sound like "mission accomplished" to me. But if the IDF chief is indeed telling the truth, and a year on Hamas really has been defeated, then the Israeli government has ran out of excuses for slaughtering men, women, and children, in Gaza, and they need to get out.
Plus of course it means that Benjamin Netanyahu was lying to the world less than 2 weeks ago when at the UN he declared that the killing wouldn't stop until Hamas was defeated.
The point is you can always go back further, or point to this or that, but what matters is the choices made in the present. Hamas chose violence a year ago today (as did Hezbollah a year ago tomorrow), and Israel then also chose violence.
Been pondering this. The problem for me is that it ignores motive, as though 7th October was a bolt from a blue sky.
Despite Israel's protestations the United Nations considered Gaza to be under illegal Israeli occupation prior to October 7 2023,.
Violent resistance to illegal foreign occupation is perfectly legitimate and lawful under international law.
Obviously war crimes by any side is not.
The reality is noting is going to change for another month. The problem is that the Jewish vote is quite influential in a number of swing states that could determine the outcome of the US presidential election. As a result no politician is going to do anything that may encourage voters to move away from them. It’s simply not going to happen as the priority is to win the election. Israel knows this and is using this time to do as it wants knowing the USA is impotent until the polls close and the result known.
Sky news report on the slaughter of Hind Rajab and the members of her family, along with the killing of the emergency workers sent to rescue her.
According to an Israeli MP from the "liberal" centrist party Yesh Atid that, quote, "the children of Gaza have brought this upon themselves.”
When you add to that the fact the Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu has refers to Palestinians as, quote, "human animals", and countless Israeli politicians publicly claim that there are no 'innocents' in Gaza, then the dehumanisation of Palestinians is complete and killing a five year old little girl is seen as justifiable.