MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
the US announced in their press briefing yesterday that nothing had been said to them. At this point the story seems unlikely to be true.
You do realise that this report by CNN makes Netanyahu look really bad don't you? So an official from the Biden administration is hardly likely to back up the claim and say "yeah it's true, Hassan Nasrallah had agreed to our ceasefire proposal". They are supposed to be helping the psychopath, not making him look bad.
You will note that Biden adminstration official is careful not to deny the claim, only that he allegedly wasn't aware of it. When you add the fact that despite Donald Trump's deep hatred of CNN, he calls it "fake news', it is actually a reasonable source of reliable news, we can assume that the story is highly likely to be true.
I note that the Donald Trump tactic is being used more and more on this thread btw. I can see the attraction of this particular tactic, shouting "fake news" not only saves the trouble of providing a counterargument or explanation but it also satisfies your supporters who aren't interested in the truth anyway.
As the US proposed the ceasefire, telling them he’d agreed to it would be a critical step to Nasrallah accepting it, no? It would be wise to see what other parties say before making wild claims.
I note that the Donald Trump tactic is being used more and more on this thread btw.
That’s actually funny coming from someone who calls “Hasbara!” as often as you.
The full question and response from the US state dept press briefing, just so you don't think I'm trying to save myself "the trouble of providing a counterargument or explanation".
https://www.state.gov/briefings/department-press-briefing-october-3-2024/
QUESTION: Okay. Same area, slightly different topic. Lebanese foreign minister told CNN today or yesterday that Hassan Nasrallah, before he was killed, had actually agreed to the 21-day ceasefire that the U.S. had been putting together last week. Is that accurate?
MR MILLER: So I can’t speak to whether he ever agreed to it and told somebody inside Lebanon. Obviously that could be something that happened that we wouldn’t be aware of. I can tell you that if that’s true, it was never communicated to us in any way, shape, or form.
QUESTION: And you guys met with – Secretary Blinken met with Lebanese officials.
MR MILLER: He did.
QUESTION: In New York.
MR MILLER: We were having a number of —
QUESTION: And specifically discussed this 21-day ceasefire.
MR MILLER: We were having a number of conversations with Lebanese officials, as well as with others in the region. And I can tell you at no time was it ever communicated to us that Hizballah had accepted a ceasefire.
QUESTION: But they were giving you confidence that they might, but it wasn’t necessarily from Nasrallah?
MR MILLER: So we were having a number of diplomatic engagements to talk about the proposals that we were going to put forward.
QUESTION: Right.
MR MILLER: I think all the parties were well aware of the proposals that we were going to put forward, but at no time in those conversations did we get a message that Hizballah was – Hizballah had agreed or was going to agree to it.
QUESTION: Or Nasrallah himself.
MR MILLER: Yeah, or Nasrallah – well, I mean that – one and the same.
before making wild claims.
Wild claims? Why on earth do you categorize it as "wild claims"? The claim is perfectly reasonable, it has been reported by news providers across the globe, and my link was to a reputable US news source.
That’s actually funny coming from someone who calls “Hasbara!” as often as you.
Do you actually know what hasbara is? It's not the same as "fake news".
"Fake news" is something which is only in Donald Trump's, and his supporters, heads, it isn't actually real. And in contrast hasbara is a very real multimillion dollar Israeli government project.
Not once have I "called" hasbara to a claim being made, never mind "often". I have on a few occasions mentioned it because it is a vital Israeli tactic which in the last year has so dramatically failed.
Indeed Netanyahu has expressed his outrage at its failure and a very senior Israeli government spokesperson was sacked. Expenditure on it has been increased significantly.
Genocide is very hard to sell.
The full question and response from the US state dept press briefing,
I am not sure what you think that adds to the discussion. It has already been established that a Biden adminstration official claims that they weren't told, and I have pointed out the denial is hardly surprising as the "wild claim" makes Netanyahu look really bad. What do think the transcript adds?
Everyone knows that Netanyahu wanted to expand the war and didn't want a ceasefire, assassinating the leader of one of the parties involved in the ceasefire negotiations guaranteed that.
Who the hell deliberately assassinates one side's leader during peace talks?
Here is an example of Netanyahu's fury at the failure of hasbara (which is very real and costs a lot of money)
Eylon Levy has been sacked since that article was written.
You will note that Biden adminstration official is careful not to deny the claim, only that he allegedly wasn’t aware of it.
That isn't the case
MR MILLER: We were having a number of conversations with Lebanese officials, as well as with others in the region. And I can tell you at no time was it ever communicated to us that Hizballah had accepted a ceasefire.
My bold. Mr Miller did not say, "I haven't heard that"
Speaking as a broadly neutral, centrist bore...
I can assure the main combatants on this thread that:
The majority of people were shocked and appalled by the Hamas attacks on 7th Oct 2023 and, whilst concerned about a possible Israeli overreaction, supported the limited aims of dealing a commensurate blow to Hamas and getting as many hostages back as possible. Whilst broadly sympathetic to Palestinians, no one in their right mind would be anything other than repelled by Hamas's methods on 7th Oct.
However, any sympathy for Israel over the trauma of 7th Oct rapidly gave way to revulsion at the aggression (constantly called self-defence) which Israel pursued in Gaza. The first few weeks clearly demonstrated collective punishment (a war crime in its own right) whilst moving further and further into ethnic cleansing territory. First they were going to conduct cross-border operations. Then it was only going to be the north. Then it would only be the north and middle, then...
And now expanding the war to Lenanon, Yemen and God knows where else. Clearly the comms attack on Hezbollah was already set up prior to 7th Oct. Bombing other state capitals.
There is no doubt in my mind that Netanyahu was simply waiting for something like 7th Oct to unleash a pre-planned offensive against anyone he perceives as an enemy. In time, the circumstances around Israeli blindness to the planning of 7th Oct may come to light. But for now I believe Israel really was caught on the hop.
But the 'retaliation' was already planned as a totally out of kilter multiple escalation. Capabilities, hardware, plans, manpower. It was all ready to go. And not just as a result of Israel's long-standing situation - specifically on the instructions of the current government.
I don't know what point you are trying to make timba.
"at no time was it ever communicated to us" is not denying the claim that Hezbollah had agreed to a ceasefire, just pleading ignorance.
Mr Miller did not say, “I haven’t heard that”
Who said that Mr Miller said "I haven’t heard that”....me? I can't remember saying that.
And "it was ever communicated to us" and "we weren't told" sounds exactly the same to me, why are we nitpicking words?
Anyway I think that particular topic has been done to death now, you either believe that Netanyahu ordered the assassination of Hassan Nasrallah to scupper ceasefire talks or you don't. How about moving on......any comments on the hasbara article?
Anyway I think that particular topic has been done to death now, you either believe that Netanyahu ordered the assassination of Hassan Nasrallah to scupper ceasefire talks or you don’t. How about moving on……any comments on the hasbara article?
Why do you move arguments along when you introduced them?
You skipped over this one too (p36)
ernielynch…but why aren’t Western nations putting a stop to the current genocide in Gaza?
timba...How can they?
And didn't offer much on the suggestion that Iran also needs to stop supplying munitions to the Houthis/Hamas/Hezbollah
Why do you move arguments along when you introduced them?
I provided a link to a CNN article, I didn't really expect to have an argument over it, never mind a long protracted one involving the fine definitions of terms.
You and benos have made your points and I have made mine, what else do you think there is left to discuss?
Any comments on hasbara, a subject brought onto this page by benos? The Haatetz article?
I imagine (hope?) the ICC will be kept busy for a number of years prosecuting all those involved on both sides of this war,
the ICC will be kept busy for a number of years prosecuting all those involved on both sides of this war
Might be difficult when the defendants on one side are probably all dead, and the defendants on the other are under the protection of the US and UK governments.
The winners write the rules as well as the history of a conflict.
Might be difficult when the defendants on one side are probably all dead, and the defendants on the other are under the protection of the US and UK governments.
Possibly true, but if they are not prosecuted then all bets are off and it’s a free for all in any future conflicts. The video is quite revealing as to the utter dehumanising belief that the IDF hold for Palestinians, and with what is happening in Lebanon I expect no better from them.
It could be very dangerous for the British/israeli citizens that have fought for the IDF as their names have been posted in a number of online sources.
Israelis has been responsible for massacres against Palestinians since 1948, the ICC has never prosecuted any Israelis responsible for war crimes.
Just one example........in 1983 the United Nations found Israel responsible for the Sabra and Shatila massacre in 1982.
The IDF guarded the exits of the refugee camp so that no one could not escape whilst their right-wing christian henchmen were committing mass-murder against Palestinians refugees and Lebanese Shias.
The Israelis even fired flares throughout the night to illuminate Sabra and Shatila so that their allies could see what they were doing, as they slaughtered people throughout the night.
There was never any justice for the victims of Sabra and Shatila.
Just one example……..in 1983 the United Nations found Israel responsible for the Sabra and Shatila massacre in 1982.
I think I read about that massacre in a graphic novel/book by Joe Sacco, you only need to look at the furore created by Jenrick’s latest outburst regarding the “supposed killing” of detainees by special forces - absolutely double standards and blatant racism in not holding the IDF/Israel to the same standards.
An unsurprisingly massive turnout at today's national demonstration in London in support of Palestine. You usually see a few Lebanese flags at these demonstrations but today there were a huge amount. Which surprised me as no stalls were selling them, unlike the Palestinian flags.
And as usual a lot of high-profile Jewish presence - huge banners and homemade placards, kippot, etc. Which is truly heartwarming, although I can understand the anger which they must feel about what is being falsely done in their names. As one banner pointed out "There is nothing Jewish about apartheid"
Edit: never mind, just googled the significance.
No need to be obtuse.
https://twitter.com/obbsie/status/1842587549442994248
https://twitter.com/metpoliceuk/status/1842589089264025671
https://twitter.com/IncMonocle/status/1842547547623055748
24 people killed in an attack on a mosque, but yeah - let’s get our knickers in a twist about a bad taste fancy dress.
24 people killed in an attack on a mosque, but yeah – let’s get our knickers in a twist about a bad taste fancy dress.
Mosque and a school. Really going after the hard points now are the patriotic apple pie guys of the IDF.
There would probably be worse taste fancy dress, banners and chants at a Liverpool vs Man Utd game.
Israel relinquished any moral high ground long ago. The majority of folk can see what is going on.
Obtuse? I was genuinely interested. That first video is truly bizarre, I have never seen anything like it, what a strange thing to do!
The third video is actually really useful, I have already posted it on my local Palestine Solidarity Campaign WhatsApp group as an example of how not to react to deliberate provocation by Israel supporters.
I had posted last night a comment that I was disappointed that too many people gave in to the temptation of reacting to the small group of a hundred or so zionists who inevitably turn up to try to wind up the hundreds of thousands of Palestine supporters.
I pointed out that they are there for one reason and one reason only, to get a reaction. So reacting is doing exactly what they want. There is one zionist supporter who turns up to most demos waving a proper official IDF flag, luckily very few people indeed know what it is (I had to google it)
I of course recognise their right to demonstrate their support for Netanyahu and what the IDF are doing in Gaza but I don't know why they are allowed to do it at a predetermined position on the precise route of a demo in support of Palestinians, it is provocation and nothing else, a public order issue I would have thought. London is a huge city they could have their counter-demo far away somewhere else.
Obviously it is easier for me to say don't react to provocation from those who support the genocide in Gaza because I don't have family and friends that have been killed by the IDF, many on the demo will have been Palestinian and Lebanese.
Young Palestinian mothers make up the backbone of my local Palestine solidarity groups** - yesterday I was walking alongside a couple of them. One of them always takes her little girl on demos, on one demo she wore a white t-shirt sputtered with red and the words "I am not a target". You can imagine how they feel when they see Netanyahu supporters waving Israeli flags.
What I find interesting about the third video is that I can't see a police officer in sight, usually they form a line in front of counter demonstrators and yet despite the fact that the angry Palestine supporter is in touching distance, as well it would appear loads others, nothing happens to the Netanyahu supporter, they obviously don't need police protection.
Anyway thanks for posting the videos :thumbs:
Edit: When I say "backbone" I mean in an administrative sense, such as chairing meetings, organising, etc. It might come as a surprise to many just how much control and influence deeply religious Muslim women can have.
It might come as a surprise to many just how much control and influence deeply religious Muslim women can have.
Well, only to those whose opinions are dominated by racist stereotypes.
Dr Omer Bartov has come out and said Israel is committing genocidal actions, ethnic cleansing and annexation of the Gaza strip, The U.S. and the allies providing weapons are also complicit.
I attempted to show the links describing who Omer Bartov is and why he should be listened too but well....you know the forums ability to include links is fubar so google if you can be arsed.
edit : opened back up, tried to edit but nope......links will not insert.....fubar,
I attempted to show the links describing who Omer Bartov is and why he should be listened to....
You mean because he is an Israeli born historian and former member of the IDF and is now Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies?
https://vivo.brown.edu/display/obartov#
"Israel Guilty of Genocide, Ethnic-Cleansing; US Totally Complicit’: Omer Bartov
https://thewire.in/video/israel-guilty-of-genocide-ethnic-cleansing-us-totally-complicit-omer-bartov
Omer Bartov, one of the world’s foremost scholars on the holocaust and genocide studies, has said Israel is guilty of “genocide, ethnic-cleansing and annexation” in Gaza.
Yep, that’s the one ^
Perhaps they should pass laws to make war crimes illegal?
For everyone.
I’m unsure if this has been previously mentioned on this thread but it’s a harrowing and damming read throughout, the Gaza Health Care letters to the U.S, Canadian and UK leadership from the collective doctors, surgeons and health care providers who have worked in Gaza,
https://www.gazahealthcareletters.org/
I know it's not the excuse that makes everything all right.
And i know it's a choice that has been crowbarred into an already tight space.
But...
The Jews are there now. From a European/World guilt angle it's difficult to deny their right to at least a space for self-determination.
For the people of the Arabian Peninsula it has obviously been difficult to be forced to accommodate it. So difficult that they have not.
Hitler, in an earlier pre-Final Solution phase had considered making Madagascar the new 'Homeland' for them - is it too late to reconsider?
If only there was a way of prosecuting countries which violate international humanitarian law.
And those who arm them.
‘Many of the strikes on Lebanon have violated international humanitarian law’, says UNHCR
If by 'a space for self-determination' you mean a highly militarised, ethno-nationalist, apartheid state, driven by an ugly supremacism that aggressively craves lebensraum and cannot make peace with its neighbours, then no. I don't think the Madagascans would like that at all.
Well, here we are a year later with no end to the fighting in sight.
All the Jewish schools in Manchester have a police presence lurking near the entrances this morning.
Sad times we live in.
I struggle to see how western governments failing to stop the horrific reaction by the Israeli government to the Oct 7th attacks serves any wider strategy or benefits our nations.
Just an awful downward spiral into god knows where.
Some would argue that the USA wants Iran tested and kept in check in the region to benefit the USA, and that current horrors could help with that. I can't see that anything going on in the region right now benefits people in the USA at all myself, but some will see it that way... possibly including some people in a position to influence USA policy. But, in the main, either the October the 7th attacks not happening, or the government and army of Israel responding in a far more limited way, would have been better for all "western governments" and their people... but that's all secondary to the horror and fear being endured by those closer to or directly in the path of all this.
no end to the fighting in sight.
I’m not sure I’d characterise jet planes bombing schools and hospitals as “fighting”, but no, no end in sight.
Iran also recently elected a "moderate" president, there was an opportunity to perhaps use a bit more carrot and less stick to bring Iran in line, I think that would also have not been good for the current Israeli governments objectives, so probably also figured into their thinking in expanding the conflict.
I’m not sure I’d characterise jet planes bombing schools and hospitals as “fighting”, but no, no end in sight.
What a tiresome and predictable response. Everything's so black and white, isn't it.
From hearing some people here bang on you'd think that it's really simple: Evil Israel is killing civilians because they want to wipe out all Arabs and steal their land - and that's all there is to it.
Let me ask a couple of questions:
Why are Israel using extremely expensive precision weapons to target specific buildings, even rooms within buildings, rather than eg cheap carpet bombing?
Why are there so many videos of secondary explosions after these strikes on civilian buildings?
Please note my intention in asking this is mainly for the points of "it's not so simple" and "yes they (H&H) do hide weapons, commanders etc amongst civilians and it's naïve to think they don't deliberately do this". I am well aware that Israel are far from clean and the fact that they have little regard for civilians (to say the least) is meaningless (in this context only, of course). This post is not intended as a blanket defence of Israel or to play down the deaths of anyone.
What a tiresome and predictable response. Everything’s so black and white, isn’t it.
I'd hoped not wilfully putting civilians at risk from the mortal danger of high explosives would be a pretty black and white issue. Am I wrong?
I’d hoped not wilfully putting civilians at risk from the mortal danger of high explosives would be a pretty black and white issue. Am I wrong?
Not at all. Pretty stupid to store it in their basement.
Sigh. Yes, don't worry, and stupid to shoot at it.
After a year of this I am dismayed to say that each day I wake up to find the whole situation in Gaza more shit, more desperate than I ever beleived it could be 48 hours beforehand.
50,000 and counting killed. A million suffering from hunger and disease. I’m struggling to see the “white” bit.
Struggling to see the white, compared to that? Fair enough.
Struggling to see any white at all? No.
Struggling to see the white compared to that, and therefore making yourself blind to the possibility of there being any white? No.
Just because the black may be more than the white does not mean you need to focus exclusively on that.
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor" - Desmond Tutu
There is only one oppressor currently in Gaza killing thousands of men, women, and children, it's that black and white.
Not at all. Pretty stupid to store it in their basement.
From someone whose stated intention is not to play down deaths, that response is saddening.
There are no excuses for what the Israeli government is doing in Gaza. There is no need to paint Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis or the Iranian regime as whiter than white to make that point though… the lies aren’t needed. The horrific attacks all these groups carry out shouldn’t be whitewashed.
There is no need to paint Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis or the Iranian regime as whiter than white to make that point though… the lies aren’t needed. The horrific attacks all these groups carry out shouldn’t be whitewashed.
I don't see anyone doing that, but to suggest that their attacks are remotely comparable to what the Israelis are doing is next-level whataboutery. The casualty figures speak for themselves - there's really nothing else needs saying.
there’s really nothing else needs saying
When it comes to peace in the region, then everyone actively involved in conflict, bombing and hostage taking are part of the problem, and can't be ignored when hoping for resolutions.
Did anyone read the "long" essay by Naomi Klein in the guardian at the weekend?, it's an involved read (30 mins) but worth setting time to see it to the end, she's received quite a vitriolic response for the essay and her reading of the situation in Israel
How Israel has made trauma a weapon of war
From someone whose stated intention is not to play down deaths, that response is saddening
Fair enough that was perhaps overly flippant, I apologise. It was an annoyed response to a post completely ignoring my message and reinforcing that some people refuse point blank to see two sides.
Look, I am not neutral here and nor am I comparing deaths on either side. Anyway, in what world is "neutral" defined as "able to see that perhaps the oppressed is not 100% perfect and the oppressor is not 100% evil"?
Say it's 99% if you like. It's still not black and white.
Nobody is 100% evil, or 100% good. Now we've established that profound truth, then what ?
Iran also recently elected a “moderate” president, there was an opportunity to perhaps use a bit more carrot and less stick to bring Iran in line, I think that would also have not been good for the current Israeli governments objectives, so probably also figured into their thinking in expanding the conflict.
Iran is a theocracy and Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei outranks the president. He has a 25+ year track record of preventing more moderate presidents from carrying through changes to international detente, the national economy and civil rights. Iran is 153rd/167 in the The Democracy Index https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-29115464
Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who also appoints the head of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, has previously called Israel a "cancerous tumour" that "will undoubtedly be uprooted and destroyed" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68811276
His appearance leading Friday prayer is significant; he hasn't done that since 2020 and is facing both Israel and domestic discontent, e.g. suppression of womens' rights and the 2022 death of Mahsa (Jina) Amini in the custody of Iran’s morality police https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/06/26/unveiling-resistance-struggle-womens-rights-iran
We'll never know if you're right, but it's never as simple as "if only" 🙂
Nobody is 100% evil, or 100% good. Now we’ve established that profound truth, then what ?
1) Accept that it's possible to talk about the good or positive points of Israel, or the negative points of Hamas/Hezbollah/whoever.
2) Accept that neither side always tells the truth, or always lies.
3) Accept that both sides sometimes tell the truth and it's worth listening to.
4) Accept that it's possible to somewhat support and condemn both sides without being either neutral or solely "with" one side.
I daresay there's plenty more.
All of the above can be both reversed and looked at in varying degrees. For example: everyone's very quick to instantly dismiss anything Israel says as lies, and instantly believe anything any Hamas run organisation says, without any sort of verification or checking. Maybe they're usually right? That's not the point. (It's probably a mix anyway, from both)
If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor” – Desmond Tutu
I'm not sure anyone is even trying to be neutral. Everyone is saying all sides must stop, unless someone can show me a quote to prove me wrong.
My condemnation of the suffering and crimes inflicted by both sides doesn't make me "neutral", which seems to be the inference some posters are taking from such comments?
1) Accept that it’s possible to talk about the good or positive points of Israel, or the negative points of Hamas/Hezbollah/whoever.
So we should caveat any discussion of Nazism by noting that Hitler was a pretty good painter ? Absurd.
For example: everyone’s very quick to instantly dismiss anything Israel says as lies, and instantly believe anything any Hamas run organisation says, without any sort of verification or checking
That's clearly not the case. The BBC always refer to the Gaza Health Ministry as "Hamas-run", with the implication that their statistics are in doubt, despite a track record of providing accurate statistics. On the other hand Israeli claims of beheaded babies and whatnot are quoted as gospel.
My condemnation of the suffering and crimes inflicted by both sides doesn’t make me “neutral”, which seems to be the inference some posters are taking from such comments?
Ah, but if you condemn both sides you are equating the deaths on both sides, see.
So we should caveat any discussion of Nazism by noting that Hitler was a pretty good painter ? Absurd.
No, but if someone says "Hitler was a pretty good painter" the response should not be "ignore that, he killed millions therefore I refuse to look at his good aspects".
That’s clearly not the case. The BBC always refer to the Gaza Health Ministry as “Hamas-run”, with the implication that their statistics are in doubt, despite a track record of providing accurate statistics. On the other hand Israeli claims of beheaded babies and whatnot are quoted as gospel.
I was referring to this thread. Media bias is another subject altogether!
No, but if someone says “Hitler was a pretty good painter” the response should not be “ignore that, he killed millions therefore I refuse to look at his good aspects”.
Of course. Context is everything. If there's a thread about Auschwitz and you pop up with a comment saying we must bear in mind Hitler's painting talent I suspect you'd be criticised.
The BBC always refer to the Gaza Health Ministry as “Hamas-run”
I believe (could be wrong?) that the Hamas political wing as well as the Hezbollah political wing were reclassified in UK law to deem them as "terrorist" 4 odd years ago so any mention of them in reporting has to state this.
Tutu said apartheid in Israel was worse than in SA. Netanyahu told Max Hastings 25yrs ago his ultimate aim was to clear out Gaza and the West Bank. This didn't start on 7th Oct but in 1948.
Of course. Context is everything. If there’s a thread about Auschwitz and you pop up with a comment saying we must bear in mind Hitler’s painting talent I suspect you’d be criticised.
Oh come on. That's not remotely the same thing as what's happening here. If I was saying you must see Israel's good points in this conflict because they grow pretty flowers, then it might be comparable and you'd be correct.
I do not want this to start getting (more?) personal either or for it to turn into point scoring between us so I'm going to stop here for now, I think I got my point across well enough for those who are not determined to ignore it. I also need to do some work today 😉
"But we know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians" - Nelson Mandela
Note : Nelson Mandela was classed as a terrorist by the United States until 2008, 14 years after he became President of South Africa.
Benjamin Netanyahu has never been classed as a terrorist by the United States.
So we should caveat any discussion of Nazism by noting that Hitler was a pretty good painter ?
No, but there is plenty to be critical of the actions of the Red Army during the same period... millions of innocents caught up in the horror other people's plans.
Absurd.
Quite.
But the point is that you can be critical of the horrors the IDF are inflicting without being non-critical of the actions of Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis and the Iranian missile attacks.
Some reflection, today, about what happened a year ago, is normal and human. It doesn't make the response of the Israeli government to those events right or just. That's not "whataboutism", it's looking at the full horrible picture.
This didn’t start on 7th Oct but in 1948.
The modern day violence between the two communities arguably began with the Hebron massacre in 1929. It was a full-blown civil war by 1947, and in 1948 it became a regional war when a coalition of five Arab armies invaded with the aim of destroying the newly-formed state of Israel. They failed to do so and were defeated (the original meaning of the term "Nakba").
And of course Jordan could've kept the West Bank when they captured it in 1949, or better yet created a Palestinian state 75 years ago. Instead they annexed it for themselves, then used that very useful high ground to shell Israel in 1967.
The point is you can always go back further, or point to this or that, but what matters is the choices made in the present. Hamas chose violence a year ago today (as did Hezbollah a year ago tomorrow), and Israel then also chose violence.
So anyway, it wasn't just 1,200 Israelis who died on Oct 7 2023, it was also the West's moral authority. The legacy of the West's hypocrisy and double standards will linger in the region and throughout the Global South for generations to come.
Arming a psychopath with the most advanced weaponry in world does not come without a price.
Netanyahu 10 days ago at the United Nations :
“If Hamas stays in power, it will regroup … and attack Israel again and again and again … So Hamas has got to go,”
"This war can come to an end now. All that has to happen is for Hamas to surrender, lay down its arms and release all the hostages"
Nine days later:
IDF chief says Hamas is 'defeated'
That seems quite a leap.... from Netanyahu saying that Hamas cannot remain in power and must surrender to a few days later his IDF chief publicly announcing that Hamas has been defeated. Either Netanyahu or the IDF are not being honest with the Israeli people.
For once I think it might Netanyahu who might be closer to the truth :
Hamas fires barrage of rockets at Tel Aviv on October 7 anniversary
So after a year of pounding Gaza and making big rubble into smaller rubble Hamas still has the capacity to fire rockets at Tel Aviv.
And people believe Israeli propaganda that they have "degraded" Hezbollah's capabilities with its enormous arsenal of thousands of missiles hidden deep in the mountains of Lebanon?
The point is you can always go back further, or point to this or that, but what matters is the choices made in the present.
I sort of agree with that actually, but this:
Hamas chose violence a year ago today (as did Hezbollah a year ago tomorrow), and Israel then also chose violence.
is dishonest. Calling two things by the same name ("violence") suggests they are somehow comparable, but in this case they are quantitatively and qualitatively entirely different. To return to your first point - the choice being made every day by the Israelis is to kill more innocent people, to starve more innocent people, to degrade the environment to a point where habitation is impossible. Every day Israelis get out of bed and go and kill some more people. There isn't a level of sophistry that excuses that.
And people believe Israeli propaganda that they have “degraded” Hezbollah’s capabilities with its enormous arsenal of thousands of missiles hidden deep in the mountains of Lebanon?
Well they believed that all Iran's missiles had been shot down. Now it turns out that 30 hit a well-defended airbase. What happens when they aim at a city?
And people believe Israeli propaganda that they have “degraded” Hezbollah’s capabilities with its enormous arsenal of thousands of missiles hidden deep in the mountains of Lebanon?
That's the thing about propaganda, it often IS true, just twisted.
Have they degraded Hezbollah's capabilities? Of course. To any meaningful degree? That's the question...
Anyway, it's perfectly normal at times like this for all sides to fiddle numbers and play up their achievements etc in their reports (ie, propaganda...). Does anyone believe casualty reports coming out of Ukraine, from either side? It's slightly disingenuous to point to all this sort of thing and go on about how Israel always lies
It’s slightly disingenuous to point to all this sort of thing and go on about how Israel always lies
Even giving Israel leeway we all have to admit they do lie, quite a fair bit ,
Anyway, it’s perfectly normal at times like this for all sides to fiddle numbers and play up their achievements etc in their reports
What is definitely not normal is for one side to blatantly contradict itself. You would think that with decades of hasbara behind them that Israeli propaganda would make certain that everyone was singing from the same hymn sheet, would you not?
The Israeli prime minister stands before the United Nations declaring that the genocide in Gaza will continue until either Hamas is defeated or it surrenders.
A week later the IDF declares Hamas "defeated".
Either the IDF are publicly exposing Netanyahu as a liar or he is exposing them as liars. So why is the once slick zionist propaganda machine screwing up?
Because they frankly have no idea wtf they are doing. There is no plan. They are making it up as they go along, from day to day.
Expanding the war despite not having defeated Hamas is an act of desperation. Presumably they are hoping that things might possibly pan out in their favour, maybe the United States will get involved. The reality is that their options are very limited, "peace" isn't one of them because zionists have always chosen war before peace.
And now that the zionists project is unraveling their solution is what it has always been - war.
Presumably they are hoping that things might possibly pan out in their favour, maybe the United States will get involved.
It is Not "maybe", they are already involved. They are the ones that created the state of Israel and will forever support them, because their political apex is controlled by the strong Israel lobbyists.
United State, UK and some of the EU states will definitely get More involved in the coming years. This war will not end soon, at least not for another 100 years, and they can consider themselves lucky if this war can end in 200 years (assuming 3 generations).
As far as using WMD, the Israel and their alliance will be the first ones to use it the moment they sense defeat (escalation dominance)
Oppressors can never win in the long run no matter how much they try, unless they annihilate the population like what they did to the people of First Nation. The First Nation could not fight back as they were isolated. The Middle East, on the other hand, is an entire different story, and they will show the oppressors the boundary and that will be the boundary of the world in future.
The world is changing, war is coming and there will be hard time ahead (3 generations from now will feel it directly and hard).
Want to stop the war fast? Learn the South African way. Give the place back to the rightful people.
They are the ones that created the state of Israel and will forever support them, because their political apex is controlled by the strong Israel lobbyists.
That simply isn't true, the United States did not 'create' Israel. Nor was the US even close to Israel until after the Six Day War, in fact the US was highly critical of Israel (and Britain and France) over the 1956 Suez Crisis.
Until the Six Day War France was Israel's closest ally and main arms supplier, France helped Israel establish Israel's nuclear industry. Both France and Israel shared a common goal - the colonial subjugation of Arab peoples.
That changed in the early 1960s when the French colonialists were finally expelled from North Africa. France then embarked on a mission of establishing new friendly ties with its former Arab colonies, and the following the Six Day War placed an arms embargo on Israel.
This had a severe effect on the IDF and the United States stepped in as a provider of arms for Israel. The relationship grew as Israel became an important player in protecting "vital US interests". But for the first 20 years of Israel's existence it did not have a close relationship with the United States, in fact it was sometimes fraught.
Contrary to the anti-semitic myth that the Jewish/zionist lobby controls US policy towards Israel, and the US government does their bidding, it is the other way round - Israel is the United State's useful underling.
I do not have the slightest doubt that the United States will drop support for Israel the moment it feels that the costs of doing so exceeds the benefits they get in return. Despite all the shite sprouted by American politicians US capitalism has no emotional ties with Israel.
And worryingly for Israel US dependency on Middle East oil has dropped very dramatically in recent years,. although that is obviously not the only calculation in the geopolitical conundrums of that region.
Anyone watch Newsnight tonight?, a very vocal apologist attempting to hit all her briefing points but was well countered by the other 3 guests and Victoria Derbyshire, her utter disdain was evident in the smirks and body language
I thought it was pretty poor all round until the very end when all of them appeared to back a two state solution with admittedly varying degrees of enthusiasm. Victoria Derbyshire could not get two of the participants to shut up so much of the time was wasted as they talked over one another
France's current position was made clear by Barnier yesterday claiming "legitimate self defence" for Israel. Madame told the radio what she thought of that. If someone gives you a slap ripping both their arms off and blinding them is not legitimate defence, especially if you've been squatting their garden for decades.