MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
This is a brilliant well-written opinion piece written by a Canadian I believe:
The peace appeals of Israel’s Western enablers are a cynical charade
It's all excellent imo but my favourite bit is this :
"The West’s defining Middle East doctrine: Kill first, think later"
It is so true. Just look at Iraq for example....... after the West's slaughter of countless Iraqis (they refused to count them) which is the major foreign power in Iraq today? Yup, it's Iran. So that went well. And it extends beyond the Middle East........ after the slaughter of countless Afghans with the aim of defeating the Taliban who's in control of Afghanistan today? Yup, the Taliban.
So it is today that the West, which of course includes Israeli colonialists, are slaughtering the indigenous peoples of the Middle East. That is the only plan, what happens afterwards is anybody's guess.
they've attacked Yemen now
Is anyone still suggesting on here that Israel is facing an existential threat?
They don't appear to be on the ropes from what I can see.
Is anyone still suggesting on here that Israel is facing an existential threat?
Absolutely they are imo. But it obviously won't be from a militarily superior power. It will be because what they are doing is not sustainable, the threat is from within. Israel is frankly screwed. Hence it is behaving the way it is.
According to state-controlled pollsters
No not at all. According to Levada. And according to the LSE blog : “The most reputable public opinion data available in Russia are from the Levada Center, a non-governmental research organisation conducting regular surveys since 1988”
Don't confuse "the most reputable public opinion data" with current independence; the Levada Centre has changed massively since 1988.
In 2013 the BBC reported that, "In a statement, Levada Centre head Lev Gudkov said prosecutors had not only threatened the organisation with sanctions but had undermined its authority. The warning puts the Yuri Levada Analytical Centre in an extremely difficult position, in effect forcing it to cease its activity as an independent sociological research organisation, carrying out systematic polls of public opinion in Russia," https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22599321
It has since become fully state funded.
We digress...
Your 11 year old link makes no claim that Levada is state funded but as you say we digress, if you want to kid yourself that Putin doesn't enjoy the support of the majority of Russians then that's up to you, there are plenty of other examples of people supporting the violent and often completely illegal behaviour of their governments.
Israel being an obvious and current example.
Your 11 year old link makes no claim that Levada is state funded but as you say we digress...
It wouldn't, I quite clearly said, "It has since become fully state funded."
...if you want to kid yourself that Putin doesn’t enjoy the support of the majority of Russians then that’s up to you,
"45 percent of respondents named the Russian president among the politicians they trust." 3% lower than in July and the lowest since October 2023 and that's in an autocracy where citizens won't generally express open opinions. https://www.newsweek.com/russian-trust-putin-levada-center-poll-kursk-incursion-1946625
I quite clearly said, “It has since become fully state funded.”
Yes and your above link quite clearly says:
Russia's Levada Center, an independent research organization based in Moscow.
So yes, after Ukraine's incursion into the Kursk region "trust" in Putin fell to 45%, apparently the lowest ever recorded.
What has that got to do with whether the majority of Russians support the war in Ukraine and what has that got to do with Israel?
Are you suggesting that the majority of Israelis do not support the slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza, and now increasingly in the West Bank?
And down into the spiral we go... this is how the thread became the Ernie and DrJ show for a period and you fell out with one another even then 🙂
I know it is impossible to defend Israel's slaughter of men, women, and children, by the tens of thousands, and the destruction of their homes, schools, hospitals, and universities, but let's stick to the topic which is 'Gaza'
Check out this YT for a view from Israel:
'The Looming Catastrophe in the Middle East (with Gideon Levy) Chris Hedges Report'
I can't provide the link as I only have a limited gadget and am in foreign parts
"Looming" ?
Edit : Ah, I've just seen..... It refers to the "looming catastrophe" for Israel. Yup, I couldn't agree more.
Is anyone still suggesting on here that Israel is facing an existential threat?
Absolutely. It might look like they are in control for now but the actions they've taken in the past 12 months will reverberate for decades. From this point forward Israel will be a country under siege. They will spend the next 30 years with a target on their back and will face political and cultural isolation on the world stage. If Israelis currently feel like the rest of the world hates them, they're going to have to get used to that and live with it for a very long time.
They will spend the next 30 years with a target on their back and will face political and cultural isolation on the world stage.
You are taking a very optimistic view of the situation, Gen Brik takes a rather more pessimistic view:
Israel Will Collapse Within a Year if the War of Attrition Against Hamas and Hezbollah Continues
Another speech by Gideon Levy. I’m sure if someone else said what he says they’d be called “antisemitic”.
James Elder at the “WTAF are you doing” stage of anger and bewilderment over Gaza
Israel are now trolling us, below taken from CNN
Israel says its operation aims to stop Hezbollah's violations of a key UN resolution
From CNN's Ivana Kottasová
Hezbollah’s attempts to “infiltrate Israel” from the north, in violation of a 2006 United Nations resolution, are among the reasons for the “limited” ground operation Israel launched into Lebanon overnight, an Israeli security official said.
Speaking to reporters on Tuesday, the official argued that Hezbollah has been violating the 2006 UN Security Council Resolution 1701, which calls for a permanent ceasefire and an end to hostilities between Hezbollah and Israel
The above about settlements looks like a complete false flag, and does no good in this current climate, just websites and so on feeding off the whole nightmare going on in Lebanon, Gaza the West Bank and Israel.
The above about settlements looks like a complete false flag
Yes, of course - because there's no history at all of Israel establising settlements on illegally occupied land. This specific website may be fake, or it may not, but it's not exactly unprecedented for such activity to occur.
The above about settlements looks like a complete false flag, and does no good in this current climate, just websites and so on feeding off the whole nightmare going on in Lebanon, Gaza the West Bank and Israel.
So you believe that the world famous Jerusalem Post is deliberately stirring the shit with regards to the whole Lebanon, Gaza the West Bank nightmare with this article?
Israeli Rabbi calls for Israel to conquer Lebanon and settle it
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-821752
All Israeli colonial settlements in Occupied Palestine are illegal under the Fourth Geneva Convention. Some are also illegal under Israeli law and are not officially recognised. But the IDF and Israeli apartheid government rarely does anything about them.
You would need to be very naive and ignorant of the horrors committed by Israeli colonial-settler mentality if you believe that there is no desire by any to settle in newly occupied land, and their ability to get away with it.
More here from an American Jewish publication founded in 1946 :
Inside the Movement to Settle Southern Lebanon
https://jewishcurrents.org/inside-the-movement-to-settle-southern-lebanon-uri-tzafon-israel
Building on the successes of the Israeli settler movement, a new ultra-right group is seeking to open yet another front for conquest.
Note in the above link the reference to "the successes of the Israeli settler movement" ?
Here is more detail of their successes :
Extremist settlers rapidly seizing West Bank land
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c207j6wy332o
.
"the BBC World Service has seen documents showing that organisations with close ties to the Israeli government have provided money and land used to establish new illegal outposts"
People really need to educate themselves about the horrors of zionism.
It looks like Iran's policy of restraint is about to get ditched and Netanyahu will get the full-scale war which he has been desperate for and which will draw in the US, the UK, and France.
US says Iran is preparing missile attack on Israel
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9dyxxgxv1jo
If they are determined to Iran and Hezbollah combined can easily overwhelm Israeli air defences and hit targets such as Tel Aviv. We could be about to witness the greatest conflict since WW2
which will draw in the US, the UK, and France.
Keir Starmer will be relieved.
ernielynch : If they are determined to Iran and Hezbollah combined can easily overwhelm Israeli air defences and hit targets such as Tel Aviv. We could be about to witness the greatest conflict since WW2
Iran knows it will be pummelled if it strikes without warning so I hope there has been back channel discussion regarding the possible strikes and they’ll be shot down In plenty of time, Iran needs to save face so I imagine the strike(s) will be the equivalent of me letting my neighbour know that I’ll be tossing a rock into his garden at a specified time so he can ensure that his yappy dog doesn’t get sconed on the head
So you believe that the world famous Jerusalem Post is deliberately stirring the shit with regards to the whole Lebanon, Gaza the West Bank nightmare with this article?
I'm saying the adverts for houses for sale is a false flag, they've not even invaded the area yet, let alone demilled it, bringing in the builders would be a long way away before the brochures are finished!
I’m saying the adverts for houses for sale is a false flag
What does that actually mean?
Iran needs to save face
Or maybe Iran just doesn't want to set the region on fire to save the political career of one corrupt politician.
I’m saying the adverts for houses for sale is a false flag
If I had a quid for every time someone used the phrase 'false flag' on here I'd be able to retire. It's such a lazy phrase. Don't agree or like something that is reported in the news? False flag. Don't want to believe something is happening? False flag. Don't want to accept that the side you're supporting isn't doing as well as you want? False flag. Yes, there are people in the world who want to mislead you and misrepresent stuff, but not everything you read in the news, see on tv or read on the internet is the result of some sort of conspiracy. Most of it is just shit that happens, so maybe try to accept it at face value?
I’m saying the adverts for houses for sale is a false flag, they’ve not even invaded the area yet, let alone demilled it, bringing in the builders would be a long way away before the brochures are finished!
So let me get this right...... you don't deny that Israeli settler-colonialists have the intention of illegally settling in occupied territories, as they very clearly have elsewhere, your "false flag" claim is now that they don't have plans to build houses?
The South Lebanon Settlement Movement is a political movement with a very clear political strategy, as indeed are all the settler-colonialists who currently have two members in the Israeli Cabinet.
Political pressure is what they are after, announcing their immediate intentions to start building in expanded northern boarders at the first opportunity is precisely the way to put pressure on both the Israeli government and wider Israeli society to make the occupation of Southern Lebanon permanent.
Here are more details from the respected UK based New Arab :
Israeli settler group shares ad for properties in south Lebanon amid invasion threats
https://www.newarab.com/news/israeli-settler-group-shares-ad-properties-south-lebanon
does no good in this current climate, just websites and so on feeding off the whole nightmare going on in Lebanon, Gaza the West Bank and Israel.
So how does that remark fit in with Jewish newspapers/websites which are very clearly publicly announcing the intention of zionists to colonise Southern Lebanon ?
Well, the whole sh!tshow has just taken an even darker tone, wtaf is going to happen now?
If we all get incinerated, can I just say it’s been great knowing you folks!
So let me get this right…… you don’t deny that Israeli settler-colonialists have the intention of illegally settling in occupied territories, as they very clearly have elsewhere, your “false flag” claim is now that they don’t have plans to build houses?
You're basically just filling the thread with links to false information from weird websites, there's enough verified news to keep up with, without adding all the crap.
Netanyahu doesn't want all out war, he simply wants Israeli citizens to be safe from rocket attacks and Israeli kids to be able to attend a music festival without being kidnapped, raped and their bodies dragged through the streets in front of cheering crowds.
The region was on a reasonable path to a two state peace process until Iran intervened last October.
Iran is not a peaceable example of reasonable restraint, its actions were equivalent of an uneasy break up of a pub fight that might just allow everyone to get home in one piece ending when some drunk nutjob runs over and headbutts someone ensuring chaos. Iran has played that nutjob role for several generations and the local police and shops know the individual and mannerisms well by now. Unfortunately there will always be some well meaning charities and lawyers saying it's because he had a bad childhood or just split up with his girlfriend, so it's someone else's fault he started this latest fight and the rest of the community should therefore cheer his violence on and give him a nice council house between the river and sea rather than locking him up.
wtaf is going to happen now?
they'll wang a few missiles at each other and then go back to whatever it was they were doing before
I suspect the Ayatollah's holiday home between the river and the sea is going to get turned to rubble in the next couple of weeks.
The only civilian suffering is on the Palestinian side, they are getting slaughtered and maimed by the tens of thousands.
So the 1,139 who got slaughtered less than a year ago don’t count plus missiles raining down on civilian in Israel as I write. No winners either side but at least some can acknowledge this.
Well that was an experience.
Made a speedy exit from work and now currently bobbing around the Mediterranean wondering what comes next, but seen lots of videos of lots of missile hits in Israel, including Tel Aviv.
I can't imagine this will go unanswered from Israel. I guess they now have all the casus belli they need to start rapidly disassembling various bits of Iranian infrastructure.
You’re basically just filling the thread with links to false information from weird websites, there’s enough verified news to keep up with, without adding all the crap.
Wow, the Jerusalem Post and the BBC are weird websites full of crap?
I guess that when the truth is too unpalatable you have got to either keep quiet or shout "fake news", it's the tried and trusted Donald Trump strategy. And your supporters will love it.
The apologists of the apartheid state and its senseless killing of 17,000 innocent children really are desperate.
So I take that you can't answer this question:
So how does that remark fit in with Jewish newspapers/websites which are very clearly publicly announcing the intention of zionists to colonise Southern Lebanon ?
Cold war steve very on point
Ah **** it, usual forum crap....find it yourselves
So how does that remark fit in with Jewish newspapers/websites which are very clearly publicly announcing the intention of zionists to colonise Southern Lebanon ?
I'm sure British newspapers have over the years reported on the intentions of people like Tommy Robinson, Enoch Powell, Oswald Moseley, etc. and even interviewed some of their supporters/photographed them being pricks. It doesn't mean they were a) sane or b) representitive of government policy or general public sentiment.
So the 1,139 who got slaughtered less than a year ago don’t count plus
No, not when the suggestion is made that civilian suffering is the same for both sides, of course not.
It is truly absurd to make comparisons between the suffering of the people of Gaza and the suffering of the people of Israel.
I will stick to my original claim......the only civilian suffering is on the Palestinian side, they are getting slaughtered and maimed by the tens of thousands.
In the last 51 weeks 43,000 men, women , and children, have been killed by the IDF in Gaza due to the "war", and nearly 700 in Occupied West Bank (there is no West Bank war) How many Israelis do think have died in the last 51 weeks? Whatever the unknown figure is I can guarantee that more will have died from road traffic accident.
That is why there is no urgency on the Israeli side for peace and why the majority of Israelis support the expansion of the war, despite western opposition.
I’m sure British newspapers have over the years reported on the intentions of people like Tommy Robinson, Enoch Powell, Oswald Moseley, etc. and even interviewed some of their supporters/photographed them being pricks. It doesn’t mean they were a) sane or b) representitive of government policy or general public sentiment.
So, to be clear, are you saying that establishing settlements on occupied land is not representative of Israeli government policy or public sentiment?
So the 1,139 who got slaughtered less than a year ago don’t count plus missiles raining down on civilian in Israel as I write. No winners either side but at least some can acknowledge this.
It's kind of obscene to attempt to draw some kind of equivalence between the people killed on October 7 (many of them killed by Israeli fire, btw) and the 50,000 killed directly by Israel in Gaza, with plausible estimates (Lancet article I linked previously) of 4 times that number killed indirectly. Of course there are no winners, but losing means having to close down your business for a while on one side, and having your family blown to bits on the other.
It doesn’t mean they were a) sane or b) representitive of government policy or general public sentiment.
I fully agree that whatever plans the zionist extremists have to colonise Southern Lebanon it doesn't mean that they necessarily have very widespread public support, no has suggested that they have.
In fact there is significant opposition within Israel to the extremist settler movement.
But that link to the BBC's article (that weird website full of crap) makes it clear that they have seen proof that illegal settlers have the support and receive money from the Israeli government.
Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich and National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir have both long been involved in the extremist settler movement in the West Bank.
Israeli ministers join gathering calling for resettlement of Gaza
Interesting economic analysis from the Israeli Shir Hever:
It’s kind of obscene to attempt to draw some kind of equivalence between the people killed on October 7 (many of them killed by Israeli fire, btw) and the 50,000 killed directly by Israel in Gaza, with plausible estimates (Lancet article I linked previously) of 4 times that number killed indirectly. Of course there are no winners, but losing means having to close down your business for a while on one side, and having your family blown to bits on the other.
Wow.
I mean, Ernie and DrJ are just "whatabouting" the deaths of 1139 innocents now. I've yet to see anyone so keen to display their complete lack of shits given about Palestinian, Lebanese, Druze, etc. deaths.
Tells a story about your characters I think.
I mean, Ernie and DrJ are just “whatabouting” the deaths of 1139 innocents now. I’ve yet to see anyone so keen to display their complete lack of shits given about Palestinian, Lebanese, Druze, etc. deaths.
Tells a story about your characters I think.
You seem to be a bit confused. What has happened is that people have responded to the deaths of 50,000 Gazans by saying "what about 1139 killed on October 7". Hopefully that clears things up for you, so you can edit out your ad hominem (again) and we can pretend it was a slip of the pen.
No slip of the pen. I think your opinion is disgusting.
obscene to attempt to draw some kind of equivalence between the people killed on October 7 (many of them killed by Israeli fire, btw) and the 50,000 killed directly by Israel in Gaza
It's pretty much the textbook definition of whataboutism. "You can't bring up x because y happened". Retorting to an question over a pretty sick claim that the people who died in Israel last October 7th don't count, don't mean anything, are irrelevant.
many of them killed by Israeli fire, btw
Are you for real?
^ last 24hrs. ftfy.
hopefully.
I think your opinion is disgusting.
I am not sure that fits quite with Mark's request to keep the language on this thread civil.
Are you trying to get the thread closed ?
Personally I am not hugely impressed by anyone who tries to make some sort of comparison between the devastation caused in Gaza in the last 51 weeks and the "devastation" caused to Israel.
I get the impression that very little value is attached to the 17,000 children who have been killed by the IDF, and the many who have been left blinded, without limbs, etc.
And if your claim ignorance of the Hannibal Directive is actually genuine I would suggest that you Google it.
You seem to be a bit confused. What has happened is that people have responded to the deaths of 50,000 Gazans by saying “what about 1139 killed on October 7”.
Re-read. Ernie stated that the only civilian suffering has been on the Palestinian side - a) categorically false whichever way you look at it, and b) utterly devoid of compassion. When asked whether the (actually) 1195 who died in Israel on October 7th at the hands of Hamas counted as civilian suffering, he then doubled down on only Palestinian civilians having suffered, and explicitly stated that the innocent civilians who were murdered on October 7th don't count.
You then peeped out from behind Ernie's legs and clumsily tried to make the argument that tonyf1 was drawing equivalence, which for everyone who can read is evidently not the case: he was questioning why 1195 innocents should be so obviously and deliberately omitted from Ernie's count of civilian suffering.
Doesn't seem like much confusion on my part.
@argee - the best to hope for is that the Iranian regime have rattled their sabre and placated their citizens who demanded action. The way in which the US telegraphed this air raid does appear to be a rerun of the attack a few months ago.
I don't want the thread closed at all. I think it's important people can come read people's musings. Especially not particularly nice musings. It helps people judge character.
You then peeped out from behind Ernie’s legs
You are determined to ignore Mark's request and take this thread down the road which will get it closed, aren't you?
I of course didn't claim that no Israelis died on Oct 7, you knew exactly what my point was...... that as the "war" has progressed the civilian suffering has all been on the Palestinian side, not the Israeli side. Your nitpicking smacks of desperation.
And certainly at least some of those who died in Israel on Oct 7 will have been killed by the IDF. Sometimes deliberately and sometimes accidentally. We will never know the total figure but that it happened is certain.
I am not sure if the [removed] will dismiss the respected Israeli newspaper, Haatetz as a weird newspaper full of crap but I invite you to read this:
IDF Ordered Hannibal Directive on October 7 to Prevent Hamas Taking Soldiers Captive
I of course didn’t claim that no Israelis died on Oct 7
Where did I say that you did?
You made the same mistake as DrJ - nowhere did equivalence come into tonyf1's post. You've inferred that yourself, and made a pretty telling statement as a result.
You are determined to ignore Mark’s request and take this thread down the road which will get it closed, aren’t you?
Doing exactly the thing nickc called you out for in the other political thread.
I can’t imagine this will go unanswered from Israel. I guess they now have all the casus belli they need to start rapidly disassembling various bits of Iranian infrastructure.
I seem to recall the last time the Israelis faced a big barrage of missiles the defence systems worked and they (presumably persuaded by the US) let it ride. I hope that happens again.
Some on here need to be careful or the thread may have to take a holiday.
I don’t want the thread closed at all
So how about changing the language that you use?
I very much doubt that you feel stronger about the issue of Palestine-Israel than I do, but I am aware that I need to mind my language.
I'll take the "sanctions" promised on page 1 if necessary. But if folk can go around freely dismissing dead partygoers and dead farm workers and families machine-gunned down while cowering in safe rooms, without reproach, then maybe the thread has run its course anyway.
You made the same mistake as DrJ
No mistake was made.
I will stick to my original claim……the only civilian suffering is on the Palestinian side, they are getting slaughtered and maimed by the tens of thousands.
It is frankly beyond belief that anyone should challenge that claim.
Doing exactly the thing nickc called you out for in the other political thread.
And you come along to add nothing useful to the discussion. What a surprise.
What have you got to say about Gaza? Mark didn't start this thread as a vehicle for personal attacks on people.
It is frankly beyond belief that anyone should challenge that claim.
No one is denying the Palestinians are suffering horrendously. It's your dismissal of the deaths and suffering of the Israelis at the start of this nightmare that is causing the upset.
Some people need to read a bit of history, l would suggest starting somewhere about 1948 .
Or Google Balfour .. ....
It's not even causing upset. We've been building up to it for 34 pages so it's hardly a surprise. I just don't think it should go unchallenged is all.
It is frankly beyond belief that anyone should challenge that claim.
Strawman. Nobody has challenged any claim that Palestinians are suffering. It's the claim that only Palestinians are suffering you're getting shit for.
I can't see Israel letting this one go like they did last time and the states are in full election mode so politics will be different this time. I am really afraid this is the major escalation point everyone has been worried about, I hope I am very wrong.
And to get my two penneth I have no useful contribution to make Ernie and DrJ you both make very valid points about the suffering on the Palestian side being orders of magnitude worse but you've both been extremely partisan on this thread and seem to dismissing the suffering on the Israeli side, not all Israelis, possibly the majority are backing their government's actions, which to be blunt passed the point of acceptability months ago. I don't think personal attacks on other posters is helping to get your points over either.
It’s your dismissal of the deaths and suffering of the Israelis at the start of this nightmare that is causing the upset.
Well that is obviously untrue, because if was true you would be to copy and paste the bit where I dismissed the deaths and suffering of the Israelis at the start of this nightmare. But obviously you can't.
I am quite upset at the attempts to compare 1,200 dead Israelis with the 17,000 dead Palestinian children killed by the IDF since then btw.
And to move on, any comments about the article in the Haatetz which clearly suggests that at least some of the Israelis who died on Oct 7 were deliberately killed by the IDF implementing the Hannibal Directive?
Is that not significant? Why is it getting ignored?
the only civilian suffering is on the Palestinian side
A claim you've doubled down on and the bit where you agreed the original civilian deaths don't count.
Well that is obviously untrue, because if was true you would be to copy and paste the bit where I dismissed the deaths and suffering of the Israelis at the start of this nightmare. But obviously you can’t.
Do you have short term memory loss? You've done exactly that 3 times in the last two pages:
the only civilian suffering is on the Palestinian side
That is a complete sentence, not open to interpretation. By using "only" you are excluding any non-Palestinian suffering, thereby dismissing it.
Just tentatively stepping into the thread as it's not my intention to fan any flames.
That initial Hamas attack was truly evil. I can think of no reasonable justification for it.
The trouble is, we also have the Israeli State that has retaliated, as it had every right, but seems to have long ago exceeded any reasonable response that could be expected.
Hamas original attack is totally unjustifiable but Israel's government seems hell bent on losing any moral high ground it had.
It's all deeply sad and nihilistic from every angle.
This is the legacy of 1948 when the colonial power decided that their superiority could not be challenged by giving birth to Israel, but they ignored the concept of time. Yes, time.
The current escalation is going to be slow, very slow on all sides but the pressure is building up all over the world.
The war is coming and it will be a major one when it actually happens but not now, because the current situation is just the justification for the future actions on all sides. i.e. the big one.
For some reasons I sense the footprint of Israeli influence all over the western world, where they are especially efficient at managing the western apex power to the point of commanding them to further their objectives. Expansion, dominance etc whatever, then after a while the process of shrinking starts like all the historical events of the past.
I am quite upset at the attempts to compare 1,200 dead Israelis with the 17,000 dead Palestinian children killed by the IDF since then btw.
Then the upset is entirely of your own doing.
Let's have a thread tally:
Attempts to claim equivalence of 1195 Israeli deaths with tens of thousands of Palestinian deaths: 0
Dismissals of Palestinian, Lebanese, etc. deaths: 0
Dismissals of Israeli, migrant worker, tourist deaths: at least 3
Some might find that quite upsetting.