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Poor Hamas, eh? It's almost like being absolute ratbastard terrorists puts a target on your back.
Poor Hamas, eh? It’s almost like being absolute ratbastard terrorists puts a target on your back.
Where "terrorist" is roughly translated as "someone I don't like". Meanwhile the most moral army in the world:
He said: “I understand that Israel justifies its attacks on hospitals by reference to its claim that the hospitals are overrun by militants but in my four weeks in al-Aqsa hospital I personally did not see a single one.” He said he met many patients who had clearly been beaten in detention camps, and one patient who had been dragged along the ground by the external fixator holding his broken limb together.
He added that on his second visit he treated a disabled man who “in detention had been handcuffed, blindfolded and handcuffed to his wheelchair with his wrists tied to the right of his torso for 30 days”.
He said on his second visit he found the morale of staff had deteriorated and by April “there was a sense of fatalism that this would never end”.
Another consultant, based in Britain but not being named, detailed how he and a group of doctors were bombed at a so-called safe house on 18 January. He said that “the episode acted as an impetus for NGOs to stop sending humanitarian workers” and despite assurances given by British diplomats in Cairo that the attack would be taken up at the highest level in the UK, he claims nobody in government in London contacted the medical team.
I hope the flying ox is/was watching the C4 news tonight, the most moral army in the world on show, doing what they do best.
Channel 4 News this evening had a report on the torture and abuse of Palestinians by IDF. You might want to watch.
Where “terrorist” is roughly translated as “someone I don’t like”.
I mean you could use it like that, because it's true: I don't like people for whom the ICC have requested arrest warrants relating war crimes and crimes against humanity. And have claimed suicide bomb attacks and promised more.
But plain "terrorist" works just as well.
Am I to infer that you wouldn't use the term "terrorist" to describe Hamas members?
I can only speak for myself in welcoming the arrest warrants for Hamas members who participated in the attacks of October, as well as the arrest warrants for Netanyahu and his officials.
I don’t like people for whom the ICC have requested arrest warrants relating war crimes and crimes against humanity
Netanyahu, democratically elected prime minister of Israel, you mean?
Absolutely. I'm fully aware of who the ICC wants to arrest and why, and I think they should all face trial. Granted that ship has sailed for Haniyeh and "Deif" but it's hardly a controversial opinion.
Hinting that calling a Sinwar a terrorist is unfair as I said it just because I don't like him on the other hand...
Hinting that calling a Sinwar a terrorist is unfair as I said it just because I don’t like him on the other hand…
Odd that you don’t describe Netanyahu the same way.
But these word games don’t disguise the more important truth - that Israel is embarked on a campaign of genocide, has killed over 40000 people and systematically tortures hundreds of others, but not content with that they are happy to risk starting a regional war.
The more important truth is that useful idiots take what's happening in Gaza and use it to dilute the actual meaning of the word "genocide" to the point where it'll be used incorrectly to describe every conflict from this point onwards, forevermore diminishing the impact of true genocides, past, present and - god forbid - future. Whether or not this is purposeful is another question.
To be perfectly clear: I believe there are acts being committed by the IDF that are unconscionable - I'm in no way saying they are beyond reproach. But from the broader spectrum of media I'm exposed to than the average Brit, and with direct knowledge of what's going on over here, I do not believe Israel is actively and purposefully committing genocide against the Palestinians.
the actual meaning of the word “genocide”
Do enlighten us - what is the "actual meaning" of the word genocide? Have you shared your wisdom with the ICJ ?
The actual meaning is "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group."
Are they deliberately killing people? Yes. Are those people from a particular nation or ethnic group? Yes. Do they want to destroy that nation or ethnic group? They want to destroy Hamas, not Palestinians.
They want to destroy Hamas, not Palestinians.
Actions speak louder than words, I think they are trying to eradicate the Palestinians in Gaza, and would only need the flimsiest of excuses to do the same in the West Bank. and for what it's worth I see both Hamas and the IDF as terrorists, they both use terror to further their goals.
They want to destroy Hamas, not Palestinians.
To counter your argument - Israel are deliberately targeting and destroying civilian infrastructure, health care facilities, schools, universities, water and sewerage infrastructure, they are withholding aid, whether that be medical or humanitarian aid, repeatedly moving displaced people from one encampment to another, time and time again, refusal to grant the international Red Cross access to detention camps and detainees, refusal to grant access to lawyers for detainees, refusal to grant access to independent observers, refusal to grant access to international journalists, refusal to show just and legal proceedings when investigating their own crimes.
I could go on, but I guess I've made my point
Everyone posts these things as though Israel is acting on a whim with no external stimuli.
Why are they targeting those places? Because Hamas are using them as staging points for rocket attacks, acts which themselves both constitute a war crime and strip those places of protected status.
Refusing aid? You mention nothing of Hamas confiscating the aid that gets through, or attacking the agencies in Gaza that try to distribute it. There are dozens of trucks delivering aid to the Gaza side of the Kerem Shalom crossing every day but it just sits there rotting.
Why are they moving people? Because Hamas are entrenched within the camps and moving them is better than bombing them.
You've made the point that there are awful things happening there, and I absolutely agree. Many of those things could and should be argued as falling under the term "crimes against humanity". But crimes against humanity and genocide are separate things, and that's my point. Conflating everything into genocide, as horrific as some of those things are, chips away at the meaning of genocide - the absolute worst crime. And normalising it now means it'll be easier to say the next conflict is genocide, and the next, and the next. And there'll come a point where an unfortunate incidence of collateral damage will be labelled genocide, and suddenly everyone will be all "what are the Ugyurs/Rohingyas/Jews/Armenians moaning about - genocide? It was just an accident".
Refusing aid? You mention nothing of Hamas confiscating the aid that gets through, or attacking the agencies in Gaza that try to distribute it. There are dozens of trucks delivering aid to the Gaza side of the Kerem Shalom crossing every day but it just sits there rotting.
Like bombing World Food Kitchen, you mean? Oh no - that was the IDF. It is the responsibility if the Israelis to provide aid to the civilian population, not just to truck it to a checkpoint, let some rabble trash it, and then expect the UN to deliver it through hell. If aid is rotting it's because the Israelis refuse to facilitate its delivery to the people who need it - a starving civilian population. I wonder why?
Why are they targeting those places?
So they're blowing up an unoccupied library in case Hamas are hiding in the bookshelves? Or is it to eradicate Palestinian culture? Really, we've heard these pathetic excuses a million times before, from the mouths of the various apologists that the Israelis wheel out to insult us on our TV screens.
As for your point about the meaning of genocide, you have things exactly backwards - as long as the Israelis insist on pursuing their policy of destruction of the Palestinian people, people will stop seeing the Holocaust as a uniquely awful event, and stop seeing the Jewish people as uniquely deserving of protection, so the next time it rolls around they will just shrug their shoulders and make excuses about "collateral damage" and other obscenities.
Deleted.
Oxfam, the UK,UN, the EU and UNRWA have stated that Israel is deliberately blocking aid trucks. Couple that with the systematic tearing up of roads in an also deliberate tactic, to prevent aid from delivering its contents.
It was stated that the number of aid deliveries needed to be approx 500 trucks a day. Those that Israel did eventually let in amounted to less than 100. Another deliberate attempt to starve the Palestinians out, or have them die from disease. Hamas might be the target, but it is clear it is not the only target
You mention nothing of Hamas confiscating the aid that gets through, or attacking the agencies in Gaza that try to distribute it. There are dozens of trucks delivering aid to the Gaza side of the Kerem Shalom crossing every day but it just sits there rotting.
It's not just somafunk - the UN and a multitude of international aid agencies don't mention it either, it's just the far-right Israeli apartheid regime, various extreme pro-zionists, and you, who do. Funny that.
In fact international aid agencies accuse Israel of deliberately starving Palestinians. And deliberately killing international aid workers.
Bezalel Smotrich is no minor far-right fringe politician, he is Israeli Chancellor of the Exchequer. Less than a fortnight ago:
Israel minister condemned for saying starvation of millions in Gaza might be ‘justified and moral’
The UK foreign secretary, David Lammy, called on “the wider Israeli government to retract and condemn” the remarks.
“International law could not be more clear – the deliberate starvation of civilians is a war crime,” he tweeted. “There can be no justification for Minister Smotrich’s remarks.”
Imagine the western media outcry had a senior Russian politician made similar comments to Smotrich about civilians in occupied territories.
While its correct to highlight the importance of defining certain terms, especially those which carry such weight as genocide, the belief that Israel is targeting Hamas and not Palestinians for the "crime" of being Palestinian is naivety in the highest order and ignores the basic facts on the ground. For example, the murder of a 6-year-old girl and her family by the IDF who fired 360 rounds into her families vehicle, killing her family instantly while she died alone and terrified some hours later. When the paramedics came to rescue her, they were murdered too, despite the relevant authorities calling ahead for clearance. These atrocities are not accidents; they are intent to kill individuals because they belong to a certain group. What is happening in Gaza is genocide.
No it’s not.
I think most reasonable people would accept that the far-right government in Tel Aviv intends, at least in part, to destroy the Palestinian people.
There no other explanation for their relentless targeting of Palestinian civilians and the destruction of their civil society - to the extent that they have even carried out the destruction of a captured university through controlled explosions.
The extreme zionist government is also currently expanding their annexation of Palestinian land in the West Bank in blatant violation of international law. The aim is clear - to deny the Palestinians statehood by making the West Bank unviable as part of a Palestinian state due to the huge Israeli population living on it.
All this fulls within the definition of genocide.
"a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part."
They aren’t targeting civilians though.
Yes they definitely are. They are working on the old and widely discredited premise that if you bomb civilians sufficiently you will break their morale. The Allies tried that tactic during WW2 and the Americans tried it in Vietnam and Cambodia. The Israelis are using it to such a level of intensity that it amounts to genocide.
The far-right Israeli government uses psychological warfare - targeting civilians in "safe" places such as hospitals and UN schools is more effective than targeting in their homes as it sends a clear message than nowhere is safe and they have nowhere to run to.
Israel has a long history of massacres of civilians in refugee camps which predates the current situation in Gaza. It also has a long history of "collective punishments" which by definition requires civilians to be targeted.
Furthermore Israel is using the blockade of food to create conditions of starvation among the population of Gaza, that is indisputably targeting civilians, and in fact forms part of the allegations of genocide and war crimes in the international courts.
Don’t agree with any of that .
They aren’t targeting civilians . If Hamas want to hide behind children that’s the war crime you should concentrate on.
Hamas cannot hide behind children because the IDF will kill children without any hesitation at all.
In fact IDF snipers will target children. They know full well that killing children has a profoundly devastating effect on Palestinians. By doing so they are destroying what means most to Palestinian parents.
There is not a shred of evidence that the IDF are doing anything at all to avoid killing children. So far they have directly killed over 16 thousand children.
I’d love to see your evidence of what you’ve alleged in that post .
Completely untrue of course but if you can back that up I’d love to see it .
Too much evidence to list. Here’s a start
That’s not evidence ! Thats third hand allegations in a notoriously left wing newspaper!
About as far from evidence as you can get.
That’s not evidence ! Thats third hand allegations in a notoriously left wing newspaper!
About as far from evidence as you can get.
Yeah right. You’re obviously not an objective commentator. I won’t be responding further to your propaganda.
I’d love to see your evidence of what you’ve alleged in that post .
Why? You would simply reject it. It is accepted by the United Nations relief agencies, international aid agencies, and the international community as a whole, that the IDF have killed sixteen thousand children in Gaza since October last year.
The IDF have no respect for the lives of Palestinian children. The Idea that Hamas can "hide behind children", as you claim, is as ludicrous as to claim that they can hide behind paper bags.
The IDF have been shooting and killing children for decades. They have simply upped the antes in Gaza in the last 10 months.
Btw what has the fact that the Guardian is according to you "notoriously left wing" got to do with the credibility of an article? I would be interested if you could explain that please.
Hamas may not physically hide behind children, but if they really cared about the civilian population, would they not fight out in the open? Now they have watched 40,000 civilians die because of a war which they initiated, would they not surrender to stop any further killing? Israel are not going to stop, unless their government is overthrown (or, maybe, the US withdraw support). I'm sure some of the allegations against the IDF must be true. but some on here are alleging that the whole of the Israeli armed forces are nothing but sadistic murderers. I can't believe that.
would they not surrender to stop any further killing?
So it's Hamas' fault that IDF are slaughtering civilians. Makes sense. Should Ukraine surrender as well? Or is that different?
some on here are alleging that the whole of the Israeli armed forces are nothing but sadistic murderers. I can’t believe that.
Plenty of evidence of it. How else do you describe someone doing a dance on Tim-Tok to celebrate murder ?
because of a war which they initiated
Initiated? What on earth are you talking about - this has been going on for 75 years, long before any of the Hamas fighters were even born.
And in the last year literally hundreds of Palestinians have been killed in Occupied West Bank by the Israelis. There is no "Hamas war" going on in the West Bank.
No of course the IDF are not killing Palestinian simply because they are "sadistic murderers", anymore than the Nazis murdered 6 million Jews simply because they were sadistic murderers, it would be ridiculous to claim that.
They are killing thousands Palestinians, mostly women and children, because they consider their lives to be worthless and they have goals which they wish to achieve.
They have precisely the sort of mentality which you would expect far-right fascists to have, which is of course exactly what they are.
And above is your reason why the Guardian being left wing is relevant
So, didn’t the incursion by Hamas last October start this current shooting war then?
Did history start on October 7 ?? Is there a reason to ignore everything that happened before that ??
October 7 escalated it beyond anything recently, though
So Israel slaughtering civilians is Hamas' fault. That's what every domestic abuser says - "I didn't want to hit her, she made me do it, I had no choice".
See my comment about Iran.
How many Palestinians or Israelis has Iran killed in the last year ?
. double post ...
My point was, simply, that Iran's stated aim is to wipe Israel off the map. Their proxy fighters are Hezbollah and hamas, among others. If you agree with that aim, fine, but don't expect Israel to respond with anything but violence. I'm certainly not sticking up for the way Israel have been acting (who could?) but I can possibly see why they are doing some of the things they do. They consider that they are surrounded by enemies and will probably fight to the last man if attacked. Someone earlier mentioned Bomber Command in WW2 - it was all-out war then and it seems that Israel and Hamas think that way now. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a war between Israel and Iran at some point, either. I'm sure our good friend and ally Saudi Arabia wouldn't object.
“Stated aims” don’t kill any children. Bullets and bombs (and starvation and disease) kill children.
Yes only bullets and bombs kill children, but surely you must agree that if Hamas and Hezbollah had an air force or armour they would be blowing up as many children in Israel as they could? The anti-Israeli bias amongst some people on here is a wee bit worrying. Maybe it's a little bit more than just anti-Israeli? I hope I'm wrong.
The anti-Israeli bias amongst some people on here is a wee bit worrying. Maybe it’s a little bit more than just anti-Israeli? I hope I’m wrong.
I don’t see a bias, but you go ahead and accuse people of anti-Semitism, and welcome to my virtual “ignore” button.
but don’t expect Israel to respond with anything but violence
No I really wouldn't, not for a minute.
but surely you must agree that if Hamas and Hezbollah had an air force or armour they would be blowing up as many children in Israel as they could?
Hezbollah certainly has the capability. The United States recently concluded that Hezbollah has the capability to fire 3,000 missiles a day at Israel for up to 3 weeks, this would easily overwhelm Israel's iron dome defenses.
Presumably you believe that Hamas decapitated babies?
Iran provides support to Hamas and Hezbollah, I don't actually see a problem with supporting those fighting the illegal foreign occupation of their land, do you?
And despite giving material support to Hamas Iran doesn't control them anymore than the United States controls Israel, they are not even ideologically and ethnically close. Hamas are Sunni Arabs and Iranians are Shia Persians. At one point they were each supporting totally opposing sides in the Syrian civil war, that's how little control Tehran has over Hamas.
Obviously it works very much in Netanyahu's and his fascist government's favour to claim that Hamas and Tehran are the same thing. He would have you believe that slaughtering Palestinian women and children is part of the fight to stop Iranian global dominance, or whatever bollocks far-right Islamophobics spout.
So, if Israel went back to the 1967 borders and stopped murdering their neighbours for fun would you say it had the right to exist? Or, as Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria and various other groups believe, should all the citizens of Israel (excepting the muslims, obviously) be thrown into the sea? I'd be keen to hear your solution.
I don’t see a bias, but you go ahead and accuse people of anti-Semitism, and welcome to my virtual “ignore” button.
I very much doubt the people posting on here are in any way anti-semitic, mostly just people outraged at the loss of innocent lives in Israel, Gaza and possibly (but hopefully not) Lebanon. I do however find it interesting, and a bit depressing, that the civil war raging in Sudan gets so little mention. I don't see any threads on here about it (apologies if I'm wrong), it gets little media coverage and there certainly aren't loads of folk taking to streets in protest. Huge numbers of people are being killed, millions displaced and starvation is rife. But the rest of the world, including those outraged by what Israel is doing, seems to turn a blind eye?
I should add that I'm as guilty as many as regards this issue. However I have been at least a bit aware of what is going on. I suspect part of the problem is it's not a s clear cut as Gaza, but there may well be other reasons.
I've steered clear of this thread, partly because I find the situation so depressing. But also because reading western Europeans bickering with each other about it from the safety of their sofas just seems to magnify it for me - more than most other issues. I'm a gold plated bickerer on most other subjects, but this just seems futile and disrespectful. No one in the history of the internet has changed their mind after a forum argument; so to have one over something like this.....
For me the whole situation is the very worst of humanity. The treatment of the Palestinians over the last 3 generations has been deplorable. Hamas' attack on October 6th was inhuman, up there with the worst of wartime atrocities. I have no issue with simultaneously believing that Hamas' actions have not prioritised the safety of the Palestinian civilians AND Israeli forces and leadership have committed countless war crimes. And behind all of it, deep buried inside, are beliefs in non-existent 'gods' and the evil fervour and segregation only organised religion can muster.
I simply can't conceive of anyone who could 'take a side' in the current context. There is no good and evil or right and wrong here. History will look poorly on every form of current 'leadership' in that vicinity. The only thing that should be on anyone of outside influence's mind right now is ceasefire. Sadly I don't trust either side to treat one with any respect and not use it to regather their forces for more of the same.
Humans are shit shit shit.
"I do however find it interesting, and a bit depressing, that the civil war raging in Sudan gets so little mention."
I know a family from Sudan whose parents were chased out into a Libyan refugee camp. The children were born and grew up in the camp and they stayed there for years until the U.S./Anglo French coalition started bombing the place and the locals became more hostile after Gaddafi's demise.
A large part of what has been going on in Sudan has been Arab militias trying to ethnically cleanse Sudan of black Africans, and that doesn't square with current white oppressor / people of colour narrative that is so popular within the universities and much of the media.
I'm a little suspicious that the acronym BAME was substituted with the acronym POC because Jewish people could be included under the BAME umbrella and it was deemed necessary by some to shift Jewish people from the ethnic minority column into the white oppressor column and moreover, to the top of that column.
Which is stupid really, as we know the term Semite refers to people from the Eastern Mediterranean, thus affirming that Jewish people were ethnically from that region, as opposed to being of white European origin.
if Israel went back to the 1967 borders and stopped murdering their neighbours
As it absolutely should do. On both counts. But if it did the right things, it would still be under attack from those that it want it gone, and the Jews there dispersed, and Jews elsewhere to have no safe haven.
Exactly. So what is Israel to do? It either has a right to exist or it doesn't. Personally, I'd like to see those bloody horrendous 'Settlers' (who always seem to have American accents and often a machine pistol over their shoulders) seriously controlled. However, I do want Israel to continue as a sovereign state and am hoping for a less right wing government and peace with their neighbours. But, Iran .....
I think they want apartheid gone and the Jews won't need a safe haven but can live from the river to the sea in a secular democratic state like most of the rest of the developed world. Afrikaaners didn't need a safe haven after apartheid ended, you just have to get used to treating 'the other' as an equal and not a 'human animal'.
That ends any credence given to anything you type on the subject in future.
If you don't think that the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves and fight the illegal occupation of their land then I am equally never going to give credence to anything you say.
You presumably don't have a problem with the IDF killing 40 thousand Palestinians in "self-defence" in 10 months.
Genocide is not self-defence.
I do however find it interesting, and a bit depressing, that the civil war raging in Sudan gets so little mention. I don’t see any threads on here about it (apologies if I’m wrong), it gets little media coverage and there certainly aren’t loads of folk taking to streets in protest. Huge numbers of people are being killed, millions displaced and starvation is rife. But the rest of the world, including those outraged by what Israel is doing, seems to turn a blind eye?
Some truth in that. I'd say that the reasons include the fact that we aren't arming one side in Sudan, and our politicians aren't proclaiming the right of the various parties to "defend themselves" by murdering children, so protest marches in the streets of London - or indeed Tel Aviv - seem less relevant.
However, there are some exceptions, and maybe we can hope that opinion comes around. After all, it only took 600,000 dead Rwandans before the US decided it was a genocide.
I’d say that the reasons include the fact that we aren’t arming one side in Sudan,
Precisely this. What makes the current slaughter of innocent people in Gaza different to other slaughters of innocent people elsewhere in the world is that the West is providing both the diplomatic cover and the tools to carry out the slaughter.
It could not happen without the West's complicity.
Plus it is simply an escalation of a slaughter which stretches back decades.
It could not happen without the West’s complicity.
Very true but I'm not sure I'd like to see the aftermath if the West cut Israel loose. Israel would feel completely alone and have no one curbing their more mental impulses, Iran and other bad actors would take the opportunity to wade in dragging other middle eastern countries in. The death toll on all sides would catastrophic not to mention impacts further afield.
Israel should not have been allowed to come into existence 80 years ago stealing Palestian land, unfortunately it did and we now have a right mess. Backing one side ir the other isnt going to resolve it.
I’m not sure I’d like to see the aftermath if the West cut Israel loose.
In terms of its effect on the West the consequences would be fairly minimal imo, apart from a huge influx of Israeli immigration. The Middle East's strategic and economic importance to the West has been diminishing for some time now and will undoubtedly continue to diminish.
Palestine/Israel's main strategic importance in the future is likely to be its geographical position on the West's trade routes to China and India.
But imo the West could easily adjust to the non-existence of Israel. The United States might be able to easily afford the vital financial support it gives to Israel but the cost in terms of moral authority and influence in the global south might not be a price worth paying.
But imo the West could easily adjust to the non-existence of Israel.
Don't disagree with that at all, it's the getting to that point I'm worried about. Israel has nuclear weapons and will use them if it thinks it's existence is under threat. Other countries in the region will see any conflict as an opportunity to settle old scores. Israel might not be that important to the West but the region is whilst we are still oil dependant so any mass war in the region will have massive knock on effects in terms of energy prices which will in turn affect the lives of billions in the West. I could see Russia and China, particularly Russia also chipping in, a big blow up in the region could trigger a world war. Condoning the brutality of Israel isn't the same as supporting it to some extent. It's a no win situation that will only get resolved when those in the region causing the aggression decide they've had enough and that won't be anytime soon.
Don’t disagree with that at all, it’s the getting to that point I’m worried about. Israel has nuclear weapons and will use them if it thinks it’s existence is under threat. Other countries in the region will see any conflict as an opportunity to settle old scores. Israel might not be that important to the West but the region is whilst we are still oil dependant so any mass war in the region will have massive knock on effects in terms of energy prices which will in turn affect the lives of billions in the West. I could see Russia and China, particularly Russia also chipping in, a big blow up in the region could trigger a world war. Condoning the brutality of Israel isn’t the same as supporting it to some extent. It’s a no win situation that will only get resolved when those in the region causing the aggression decide they’ve had enough and that won’t be anytime soon
The West could just withdraw diplomatic and military support and let the region sort it out amongst themselves - if Israel has nukes, allow Iran to build up an equal number to ensure a level playing field. Whoever comes out on top we can start diplomatic relations with and get back to business as usual in a few years. No need for us to get involved.
Israel's inevitable collapse will not come from war, although that undoubtedly adds pressure. Israel has been pretty much in a permanent state of war its whole existence. It has never been more powerful militarily than it is now, and yet it easily facing its greatest ever crisis in nearly 80 years.
Israel will collapse internally. The slaughter in Gaza is distracting attention away from its deep social and economic crisis. Nuclear weapons did not save apartheid in South Africa and they won't save apartheid in Palestine.
Edit :
Israel might not be that important to the West but the region is whilst we are still oil dependant
If you do a bit of googling you will find figures showing how the United States dependency on Middle Eastern oil has fallen massively recently. And in an extremely short period too, I can't remember the figures but US oil imports from the Middle East fell dramatically in the last 5-6 years
Well this is interesting.
In May, the UN’s Independent International Commission of Inquiry concluded that Israel has committed war crimes and crimes against humanity. These include torture, murder, sexual violence, and using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare. In July, the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruled Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza was unlawful. It found Israel has breached Palestinians’ rights to self-determination and entitlement to freedom from “racial discrimination and apartheid”.
And this:
Where a state or individual provides “aid and assistance” that facilitates a war crime, crime against humanity, or breach of other international law, then they can be treated as if they have committed the wrong themselves.
So there is no doubt that Israel has committed war crimes and crimes against humanity. And that by providing 'aid and assistance' the UK government is now also guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity.
If only the UK Prime Minister understood international law.
On another subject, yesterday whilst discussing the IDF tactic of deliberately targeting civilians I couldn't remember the name of the military doctrine the Israelis use, the above link mentions it, it's the Dahiya Doctrine.
The Dahiya Doctrine is an Israeli military doctrine that calls for the use of massive, disproportionate force and the deliberate targeting of civilians and civilian infrastructure.
The Israelis do not target civilians simply because they are sadistic bastards, they target civilians to achieve specific military goals.
Explainer: The Dahiya Doctrine & Israel’s Use of Disproportionate Force
https://imeu.org/article/the-dahiya-doctrine-and-israels-use-of-disproportionate-force
Whoever comes out on top we can start diplomatic relations with and get back to business as usual in a few years
Hate to break it to you but if nukes are used in the Middle East a lot of Europe, Asia and Africa will cop a lot of fall out. Chernobyl caused contamination in the UK and that was nothing compared to a full on nuke shooting war.
Ernie it's not just the supply side, it's the fact oil is an internationally traded commodity, if Middle East supply is hit it will increase costs and as we know energy prices affect the price if everything else including basic foodstuffs.
South Africa was very different, the regime collapsed due to internal pressures, if they had used nukes it would have been on their own territory, not against some outside invader. Israel probably will change internally, the current government are far from popular but there are a lot of nationalistic and religous loonies in Israel for whom common sense and decency seem to be foreign concepts.
I should think Starmer has a reasonable grasp of international law but as he stated “I support Zionism without qualification” he clearly couldn't care less for it and the 'without qualification' bit gives them free rein for genocide with arms supplied from this country.
Hate to break it to you but if nukes are used in the Middle East a lot of Europe, Asia and Africa will cop a lot of fall out. Chernobyl caused contamination in the UK and that was nothing compared to a full on nuke shooting war.
my comment about both side having nukes was more that neither side would then use them - MAD an all that. If only one side had them, then likelihood of them getting fired goes up.
Ernie it’s not just the supply side, it’s the fact oil is an internationally traded commodity, if Middle East supply is hit it will increase costs and as we know energy prices affect the price if everything else including basic foodstuffs.
I can guarantee that the Middle East would still export oil if/when Israel no longer exists.
South Africa was very different, the regime collapsed due to internal pressures
The internal pressures within Israel are far greater than they were in South Africa. 18 months ago Israel was close to civil war. It is a nation brought up on bigotry which increases with every new generation. It isn't just hatred against Palestinians but also hatred against each other. It is a multitude of different cultures each believing that their's is the superior one. Russian Jews are very different to American Jews, strict orthodox Jews are very different to secular Jews, and so on.
Add to those pressures the mass exodus of Israelis to the West (currently Portugal is a favourite destination) and the dwindling numbers immigrating to Israel, and the pressures increase massively.
And more pressure is piled onto the Israeli economy, a total collapse of the vital tourist industry, most of Israel's energy needs come from coal, its main supplier was Columbia where most of Israel's coal came from until a few months ago, Columbia has banned all coal exports to Israel due to the ongoing genocide. Turkey was a vital trade partner to Israel, since they banned exports to Israel earlier this year goods from Turkey now have to travel through indirect routes, and so on and so on.
A dwindling population and a dwindling economy will result in massive internal pressures as well as the massive political and social pressures.
Plenty of zionists realise that the game is over which is one other reason for the level of barbarism meted out to the Palestinians in Gaza - it is also an act of revenge. The profoundly religious Jews, including the ones who refuse to fight in the IDF, are completely deluded. They claim not to care if the United States/the West abandons them because they believe that God will intervene and save them. That's how ****ed up they are. And these are some of the people who form the current far-right government in Tel Aviv.
I can guarantee that the Middle East would still export oil if/when Israel no longer exists.
I don't doubt that but it wont happen instantly and the period of instability will put up global prices. The rest of your assessment, FWIW I think is pretty accurate.
both side having nukes was more that neither side would then use them – MAD an all that.
Yep and we're talking Israel and Iran, that's a very different sort of MAD. We're not talking cold war stand off here, if Israel feels like it is about to cease to exist anyway what have they got to lose?
18 months ago Israel was close to civil war
Nope. People were exercising their rights to protest against the government, as they continue to do in huge numbers although Channel 4 won't be broadcasting that I guess. But civil war? That's just a fantasy unless you can provide any evidence.
It is a nation brought up on bigotry which increases with every new generation. It isn’t just hatred against Palestinians but also hatred against each other
This sounds very much like rhetoric used elsewhere to paint an entire group of people as somehow "lesser" than others; "they hate everyone including themselves, that's not normal, that's not an acceptable human trait".
the mass exodus of Israelis to the West
With a net migration rate less than half that of the UK per 1000, totalling around 60000 in 2023, I'm not sure that counts as "mass exodus". I wonder what drove people to leave last year...?
most of Israel’s energy needs come from coal
Nope. They've been more than self sufficient in natural gas for a while now. They've got so much gas they've been exporting to neighbouring countries for the last 4½ years. That's half the reason Hamas attacked last year - Israel was becoming useful to neighbouring Arab nations and Iran did not like that one bit.
A dwindling population and a dwindling economy
Average population growth greater than 1.5%, GDP growth 1.6% in first half of 2024.
"Dwindling" - adjective - gradually diminishing in size, amount, or strength.
It's almost as if you type what you wish were true instead of what is.
You're right on the religious being deluded and the Middle East exporting oil regardless though. A broken clock, etc.
People were exercising their rights to protest against the government, as they continue to do in huge numbers
Any chance of folk exercising their rights to vote against the government in huge numbers, and elect a PM who wants peace?
Any chance of folk exercising their rights to vote against the government in huge numbers, and elect a PM who wants peace?
After the Hamas attack on Israel the population went firmly into attack mode, giving Netanyahu the ability to do what he's always wanted, and also help him avoid being prosecuted at the same time. Now with the them against us attitude around that area with Hezbollah and others joining attacks, i doubt we'll see the Israeli public ousting Netanyahu any time soon!
