Gideon
Honestly, didn't even know this was a name associated with the Jewish faith... Always associated it with being a sign of someone being an upper class, self entitled prick.
1) I think it’s really a separate topic about British things, and not about Gaza that is the subject of this thread
Fair, but didn't want to start another thread for Mark to have to monitor that could quickly get into similar turmoil, and it's not entirely unrelated.
Poor Gideon
Got to say, the geezer got off lightly compared to Jewish anti-zionist protestors in Germany…..
And in Israel. The gratuitous violence in this clip is astonishing.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/police-crack-down-anti-zionist-032104267.html
I think that the one big lesson of the last six months, apart from the depths that the Israeli government will plummet, is just how far removed the current situation is from Palestinians verses Jews.
The situation is very much Palestinians, and their supporters throughout the world, verses zionism. I have been relentlessly impressed throughout the last six months by Jewish supporters of Palestine. And how many zionists aren't even Jewish.
Enough though to have a go at a policeman doing a bloody good job of preventing a potentially serious breach of the peace and who knows what else
There isn't a an easy way to deal with this, "He had tried persuasion but the plaintiff refused to be persuaded or to accept the sensible guidance he had been given but in my judgment that was not a sufficient basis to conclude that a breach of the peace was about to occur or was imminent. There must, I consider, be a sufficiently real and present threat to the peace to justify the extreme step of depriving of his liberty a citizen who is not at the time acting unlawfully." FOULKES v. CHIEF CONSTABLE OF THE MERSEYSIDE POLICE 1998
I'm not arguing your perception of what might happen, but Breach of the Peace has been argued over for hundreds of years, it isn't clear now and appeal cases take years to get to Court, e.g. R(Hicks and others) v. Met Police (2011) was finally heard in 2017
the extreme step of depriving of his liberty a citizen who is not at the time acting unlawfully.
I haven't seen any evidence that the police officer was attempting to deprive Gideon Falter of his liberty. In fact the evidence suggests that the police officer was offering to help him go to where he claimed he wanted to go.
When legal demonstrations and organised events occur it is perfectly legal and acceptable for roads to be closed and for normal road users to be denied access - see Sunday's London marathon as a very recent example.
There is also evidence that Gideon Falter was attempting to deliberately antanogise those on the march by walking against them in the opposite direction, which would not have been lawful.
He could have legally demonstrated his opposition to the demo if he had followed the police instructions. I was on that demo and I saw the two or three dozen counter demonstrators waving Israeli flags at a point on the demo's route - they now seem to do it on every demo. The police keep them and those on the march separated, as you expect and there is never any trouble between them. In fact it surprises me how much the counter demonstrators and their Israeli flags are mostly completely ignored. On that day I didn't even hear them being jeered as the demonstrators went past, which I found quite remarkable.
Which presumably is why Gideon Falter did not want to remain with them (the organisation which he represents was behind the counter demonstration) and instead wanted to go into the crowd to antagonise them - he didn't like being ignored.
Is that victim blaming?
Yes it is, but the cops also have a responsibility for keeping the peace. You're as likely to be arrested for wearing a celtic shirt headed for a rangers bar as you are being "openly Jewish" headed for a pro Palestinian march. Falter's an idiot, but then so is the cop. It may have well been a spur of the moment comment, but try on "openly black" for size instead and see how it feels. Falter is lucky not to have been arrested. The cop will be lucky to get away with a telling off, which knowing the Met, they'll struggle on wrestling with what to do with this cop for a couple of months before eventually getting it wrong, no doubt
The word they're using to claim antisemitism is 'openly' but thats the sum of it.
The guy is clearly Agent Provocateur, and the only reason for him being there is to antagonize the crowd, hopefully be attacked verbally, or even physically, which the other in his group will film, and the goal is to try to force the government to stop the anti war protestors. Well thats how I interpret it.
Simply there to illicit trouble.
The word they’re using to claim antisemitism is ‘openly’ but thats the sum of it.
It's all it needs. It's anti Semitic, end. Yes the cop was provoked but I would've thought training is available to cops, no?
The cops should've been briefed better. Falter is there to get the video he got, or something close to it. The cop should've been much more proactive, but for whatever reason - fearful of the repercussions of arresting a Jew at a pro-Palestinian march probably but with hindsight that would've been infinitely preferable to the shambles we've got now, and instead of policing marches properly we're in an anti-Semitism row, which is equally beneficial to bell ends like Falter and CAA.
I thought the cops had intelligence, the amount of filming they do at marches these days, you'd have thought that the instant Falter showed up, he'd have been marked?
I haven’t seen any evidence that the police officer was attempting to deprive Gideon Falter of his liberty.
"Threat of arrest
The campaigner then spoke to another officer who said if he remained he would be arrested.
He was told his presence was "antagonising" a large group of people "and we can't deal with all of that if they attack you". https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-footage-reveals-new-details-of-exchange-between-police-and-antisemitism-campaigner-called-openly-jewish-13120104
"He again moved to the pavement, where protesters had gathered with flags and placards, leading a police officer to put a restraining arm around him." (same article)
Placing a person under lawful detention against their will and denying them of their liberty for the purposes of law enforcement. https://lawi.org.uk/arrest/
Openly Jewish.... Is this the phrase we're getting upset about?
FFS
It’s all it needs. It’s anti Semitic, end.
Care to point out the exact breach?
Its clumsy wording but exactly how is the officer being anti semitic? How was he displaying hostility or prejudice?
Frustration definitely at someone trying to provoke trouble but anything more than that?
Gideon Falter isn't just any random pro Israeli bod, he is the chief executive of the Campaign Against Antisemitism who had actually organised a static demonstration of two or three dozen Israeli flag waving counter demonstrators specifically along the pro-Palestine march, of many thousands, to antagonise them - they could have done their Israeli flag waving anywhere else in London on that day.
However everyone was cool about it, it didn't bother the pro-Palestine demonstrators and the police were happy to let them have their little Israeli flag waving counter demonstrator.
The question which should be asked is why, as chief executive of the organisation behind the counter demonstration, wasn't Gideon Falter with them? The transcript of the conversation with the copper shows that they were nearby. The copper was obviously aware that Falter wanted to cause provocation.
As for the term openly Jewish..... I am a member of Palestine Solidarity Campaign so for very obvious reasons I was on the demo which they organised. Had I broken away and decided to mingle with the pro Israeli demo wearing a keffiyeh the police would have stopped me for being openly pro Palestinian, and clearly wanting to provoke a reaction.
Its clumsy wording but exactly how is the officer being anti semitic? How was he displaying hostility or prejudice?
Being "openly Black?" Being "openly a woman?" Being "openly a disabled person?" How about pointing out to a woman in a hijab that she might inflame a BNP march..?
Its clumsy wording but exactly how is the officer being anti semitic? How was he displaying hostility or prejudice?
Frustration definitely at someone trying to provoke trouble but anything more than that?
Absolutely agree with this - an officer under pressure made a comment that's been twisted to appear worse than it is.
You can't not be "openly black", or "openly a woman", so that's a poor comparison. As a European looking male he chose to stress his Jewish faith to provoke a reaction and potentially cause at best a breach of the peace. A Celtic shirt in a Rangers bar is not a bad comparison.
Copper did the right thing in the heat of the moment. If we are going to get ourselves in a knot over it, I would have a lot of sympathy for any copper quitting the job with a resignation letter saying "**** this shit, you do it better if you're so bloody clever"
Being “openly Black?” Being “openly a woman?” Being “openly a disabled person?”
None of which would make you automatically racist, misogynist or ableist. So again how exactly is it antisemitic? Bearing in mind he and other members of his group were wearing kippahs and some had prayer shawls the copper was clearly identifying them as Jewish based on that rather than on any perceived stereotype.
How about pointing out to a woman in a hijab that she might inflame a BNP march..?
To use a better comparison, if that woman had turned up at a hostage vigil and acted similarly then I suspect the police might conclude it would be best if she wasnt allowed to.
The sky news footage shows a rather different picture than that portrayed by someone who wants to provoke trouble in an attempt to shut down the marches.
The policeman did a difficult job, and holding him to account for that in the moment choice of phrase is harsh I feel. Some of the responses on this thread, made without the pressure of that situation, are very depressing though.
You can’t not be “openly black”, or “openly a woman”, so that’s a poor comparison.
Several discrimination acts would disagree with your assessment. I disagree with pretty much everything folks like Falter want to achieve, but in this aspect of the treatment he received, he's right; its discriminatory. If we don't recognise that even folks that we don't agree with have rights, then forgive me, but we're ****ed.
Even JHJ gets it. The Cop just has to say to him "I suspect that you have inflammatory intent, if you don't follow my instruction, I'm going to arrest you"
The policeman did a difficult job, and holding him to account for that in the moment choice of phrase is harsh I feel.
I'm not saying the job is easy, and I'd say that he probably didn't want to have to arrest the Jew at the Pro-Palestinian march, but as soon as he made that assessment, he's ****ed, becasue its the wrong decision. Falter went looking for a confrontation, he doesn't care if that a punch up with the protestors, being arrested or whatever, and he got what he wanted becasue the Met cop on the spot gave him what he wanted because if you gave the Met. an opportunity to **** it up, they will.
This is worthy of further investigation...
https://twitter.com/Lowkey0nline/status/1782521331814146342
Whatever the truth of the matter turns out to be, how many people would be in a position to get this degree of political support and media coverage?
'Even JHJ gets it. The Cop just has to say to him “I suspect that you have inflammatory intent, if you don’t follow my instruction, I’m going to arrest you”'
And what would the policeman's grounds for believing there was inflammatory intent be?
The Cop just has to say to him “I suspect that you have inflammatory intent, if you don’t follow my instruction, I’m going to arrest you”
With hindsight, it would have been much better wording.
With hindsight being a key factor there. Easy to come up with it after the event, rather than in the middle of a difficult situation.
And what would the policeman’s grounds for believing there was inflammatory intent be?
I'd hazard a guess at the other police on the route who had previously blocked falter's "look at me" attempts to walk against the flow of the march with his hired security goons and film crew following him.
It would be so much easier if folk just watched or read what has already been posted.
because if you gave the Met. an opportunity to **** it up, they will.
But that actually isn't true. The Met police over 2000 protests every year. They take place in extremely difficult circumstances and involve thousands and thousands of people. The Met have done their absolute best (with no political support or leadership) to be fair and to facilitate the right of all sides to peaceful protest.
This whole manufacturered scandal, is about one misplaced word, by one Sgt, in the middle of a 15 min plus conversation.
Even with all that going on, the peace was maintained and despite significant attempts to start a fight, no one was hurt.
And what would the policeman’s grounds for believing there was inflammatory intent be?
Really?
Cop's on a protest march for Palestine, he sees laddo coming towards him and clocks the Kippah. He now has 3 choices. 1 Kippah man has no clue about the protest, has legitimate reasons for being there and thinks he needs/ or wants cops help, 2 Says to the cop I want to join the protest, I believe in their cause, do you think I can, what do I do? or 3. Laddo starts in on him and makes it clear that he's there for a confrontation. Actions on 1 and 2 are easy, action 3 is Don't do that mate, or I'm going to nick you. Because that's what would happen at any other protest.
I suspect cop (and has been briefed by the brass at the Met) doesn't want to be on the front cover of the Evening Standard arresting a Jew at a Pro-Palestinian march so ties himself up in knots trying not to do what turns out to be the least bad option; arrest the fella for not complying with the reasonable requests. If the cop had done that, the story would be the Met defending his legitimate actions, and Laddo having to say that he went there to FA and FO. Instead we've now got this shit show becasue the cop forgot all his training when put on the spot.
Bad Cop.
Some of the responses on this thread, made without the pressure of that situation, are very depressing though.
They depress you because you don't agree with them? As you know this thread is very closely moderated but if you feel that anything unacceptable has been posted you shouldn't resist hitting the report button.
I agree that the term 'openly jewish' was not the correct one in this situation. I don't know what Gideon Falter was wearing on that occasion, quite likely a badge saying 'Stand with Israel' which is popular with pro-Israelis and he was after all there as the chief executive of a pro Israeli counter demonstration, in which case 'openly pro Israeli' would have been a more appropriate choice.
But I do know that the term 'openly jewish' is definitely not anti-semitic (apologies if that depressed anyone) On all these demonstrations there are people who are openly Jewish and make a point of being openly Jewish.
If I can work out how to do it (the new forum editor is doing my head in) I will post a photo I took on that very demonstration of someone being 'openly Jewish'.
I think this Gideon prick is derailing this thread somewhat.
In other news:
https://youtube.com/shorts/19U7AhgT4VM?si=8isx_VxhLYPB5xGj
Is this worth defending?
Bad Cop.
I think you're being overly dramatic about it, and I'm going to say, seems quite unlike you.
That ^^ was taken on the demonstration in question. Someone was being both openly Jewish and openly anti Hamas. No one bothered him and he was just fine
I have only just seen this article and it has a better photograph than mine
I also particularly liked this comment:
He added that “every major pro-Palestine demonstration in London has included a large Jewish bloc which has received nothing but support and warmth from their fellow demonstrations”.
“Claims that these protests are no-go zones for Jews are completely untrue,” he said.
I have to say that the Jewish Bloc on these demos is surprisingly large, and very well organised with banners etc. Although many Jews attend these demos as individuals.
On the last demo (the one related to in the Falter incident) about half way through I got chatting to a young Jewish guy and what I suspect was his very elderly grandmother (she seemed quite frail so I was impressed that she was on the demo) I commented that they were the first (openly) Jewish people that I had seen on the demo and had started to think that it might be the first pro-Palestine demo where I hadn't seen a Jewish presence. They told me that the Jewish Bloc was further ahead on the march.
jivehoneyjive
Free Member
Perhaps
‘You’re being openly inflammatory with a political agenda on behalf of an apartheid foreign state’
may have been more appropriate…
The many thousands of people carrying the flags of the PNA, wearing the colours of the PNA, and calling for statehood for Palestine have not been described as bearing a political agenda on behalf of an undemocratic foreign state, I notice.
"Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to...
Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations."
https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism
Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
eh ? you can't accuse me of being an Israeli spy as that's being antisemitic 😕
I’m unsure what politecameraactions post is referring to or the point of it?
A very level-headed view from a member of the US establishment
KlunkFree Member
eh ? you can’t accuse me of being an Israeli spy as that’s being antisemitic 😕
Obviously if you go around accusing random Jewish people of being Israeli spies, then yes, that's buying into a common anti-Semitic conspiracy theory.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_Baghdad_hangings
But Gideon Falters "Campaign Against Antisemitism" is a pro Israeli lobbying organisation that has received $500,000 from the Jewish National fund which is committed to recolonising Palestine, there are numerous outspoken voices in this country and in Israel regarding his charity and his weaponisation of the term antisemitism, the Times of Israel and Haaretz carried out investigations into his ties with far right settler groups, I'll hunt them out as he comes across as a particularly nasty and islamophobic person.
For the record I totally stand by my original comment...
The weaponization of the term antisemitism in defence of Israel has become farcical at this point and shows grave insensitivity to the genuine genocide carried out by an apartheid occupying force.
We'll leave the role Falter and others of the same ilk played in the intrusion of a foreign state into the democratic process of our nation for another day, as frankly, I feel the focus should be on improving the plight of the Palestinians at this stage.
An alternative viewpoint from a student at the Columbia university campus regarding the antisemitism smears cast against the protests, the involvement of the NYPD to remove the students made the 10 o’clock news on R4.
Link to Jonathan Ben-Menachem’s report on why he’s protesting
The weaponization of the term antisemitism in defence of Israel has become farcical
Only because of the horrors which have been occurring in Gaza for the last six months.
Five years ago zionists in the UK totally had the upper hand and successfully created the myth of rampant anti-semitism as they shut down all criticism of Israel and destroyed the careers of politicians who dared to support justice for Palestine.
The reason they still push the anti-semitism line, despite the growing absurdity of it all, is because they have so little else to offer. It has worked so well for them in the past that they don't really have a plan B.
so wierd seeing Rivkah Brown turn up in all this, i used to work with here 10 years ago!
