Subscribe now and choose from over 30 free gifts worth up to £49 - Plus get £25 to spend in our shop
Where exactly were Israel located in Gaza before October 7th 2023? My understanding is that they completely withdrew in 2005. And if they're weren't in Gaza, how were they illegally occupying it?
Maybe your turn for reading comprehension fail? The article you linked doesn't mention Gaza once, instead talking about Israeli settlers in the West Bank.
Yup, the United Nations rejects that assertion. It considers that Gaza was under occupation as Israel controlled everything going in and coming out, including the electricity.
And Florida gonna Florida. Not really sure what to say about this, it's Florida. But this is not the way to show support for innocent civilians in Gaza.
The BBC are reporting that the UN have placed the Israeli military on a list off militaries committing violations against children - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8883ndp2lko
About bloody time
4 hostages have just been released but the Gaza Health Ministry are are reporting dozens killed & injured (including children) as part of the operation.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd11z2j34k4o
If the Gaza Health Ministry statement is true, this is Hamas admitting it uses children as human shields, not just to protect the lives of its fighters but to protect its political leverage.
Regardless of whatever else can be said about this conflict, or whether Israel shouldn’t have attempted the rescue because of the terrible cost, Hamas used the lives of Palestinian children to keep its ‘bargaining chips’ secure.
If the Gaza Health Ministry statement is true, this is Hamas admitting it uses children as human shields, not just to protect the lives of its fighters but to protect its political leverage.
It is no such thing. Obviously hostages will be in bombing distance of civilians. The ones responsible for killing children are the ones dropping bombs.
benosFull Member
If the Gaza Health Ministry statement is true, this is Hamas admitting it uses children as human shields, not just to protect the lives of its fighters but to protect its political leverage.
How dare hamas not hold the hostages in a compound away from everyone else, there’s loads of room in Gaza and I hear there are more tunnels than the London Underground underneath Gaza. God bless the IDF, the most moral army in the world, or so I’m told every time one of their gobshite apologists appear on the screen.
Or just the IDF killing children, again.
Unfortunately nobody cares. As the UNRWA guy said, atrocities have been normalised now. The Israelis kill who they want and nobody bats an eyelid.
How dare hamas not hold the hostages in a compound away from everyone else, there’s loads of room in Gaza and I hear there are more tunnels than the London Underground underneath Gaza. God bless the IDF, the most moral army in the world, or so I’m told every time one of their gobshite apologists appear on the screen.
So commit horrendous violence against civilians, kidnap some and take them back home, then go and hide behind the women and kids in school, university and hospital buildings whilst directing your ongoing indiscriminate attacks from those locations - glossing over the fact that both of these are war crimes themselves, for the exact reason we're seeing - and you should expect to be free from retribution as if you're playing tig at school and you're in "the den"?
As the UNRWA guy said, atrocities have been normalised now.
Indeed. It's gone so far that certain communities actively and publicly celebrate them.
Long long before Oct 7 2023 :
Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N.
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE95J0FR/
United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces on Thursday of mistreating Palestinian children, including by torturing those in custody and using others as human shields.
RAMALLAH, 4 April 2024 – Nearly 26,000 children – or just over two percent of Gaza’s child population - have been killed or injured in Gaza in six months of a war which has decimated the health system and severed access to education, Save the Children said.
https://www.memri.org/tv/palestinians-gaza-west-bank-celebrate-october-seven-massacre-hand-out-sweets-fire-guns/blockquote >
Critics describe MEMRI as a strongly pro-Israel advocacy group that, in spite of describing itself as being "independent" and "non-partisan" in nature,[6][7][8] aims to portray the Arab world and the Muslim world in a negative light by producing and disseminating incomplete or inaccurate translations of the original versions of the media reports that it re-publishes.[9][10] It has also been accused of selectively focusing on the views of Islamic extremists while de-emphasizing or ignoring mainstream opinions.[11]and you should expect to be free from retribution as if you’re playing tig at school and you’re in “the den”?
No but the children should surely be free from retribution?
Long long before Oct 7 2023
No one here is defending the IDF use of human shields.
But there are people here who appear to be defending Hamas using shields, either with whataboutery or with actual excuses.
But there are people here who appear to be defending Hamas using shields, either with whataboutery or with actual excuses.
Really? What I see is people defending the Israelis slaughtering children. At this point there is nothing to say, nothing to argue about.
No one here is defending the IDF use of human shields.
But there are people here who appear to be defending Hamas using shields, either with whataboutery or with actual excuses.
I'll refer you again to the poster on today's demo in Central London
Do you not condemn atrocities committed by the Nazis 80 years ago because the allies also committed atrocities?
The dark side of the French Resistance: four graves in the forest
Yet again we hear Israel’s army is the most moral army in the world…….
Yeah right……whatever you say.
Do you not condemn atrocities committed by the Nazis 80 years ago because the allies also committed atrocities?
There it is again: "just asking questions". Or maybe a simple Straw Man: non sequitur into a question about my personal opinion, but pose the question so the implication is that I hold an unforgivable viewpoint despite me never once even hinting that might be the case.
Whatever it is it's occurred on numerous occasions on this thread in response to people posting an opinion that doesn't fall in lockstep with your own. Despite how you might protest otherwise it's a painfully transparent attempt to frame people you disagree with in a particular, negative, light. In this case a suggestion that I'm somehow ok with the Nazis.
I'm not even sure what point you're trying and failing to make. I've never once claimed agreement with the IDF's actions in Gaza - quite the opposite, although I haven't jumped on the forum virtue signalling frenzy - but because I supported the truth of DrJ's post with reports of ordinary Palestinian men, women and children partying in the streets over the October 7th attack somehow I'm... I don't know... something to do with WW2 whataboutery? A closet Nazi sympathiser?
If I had thinner skin I'd probably be offended at the Nazi insinuation, but as it is I'm more concerned that the thought processes you must be dealing with to come up with this nonsense don't really paint a great picture of your current mental state. I clearly wind you up so I guess the least I can do for you is to disengage from your posts in the hope you find some grounding.
Critics describe MEMRI as a strongly pro-Israel advocacy group
It's not an opinion piece, they're commenting on an Al Jazeera/Mayadeen TV news report. It could be reported in the Daily Star but the facts remain regardless of however much you might not want to hear it: Palestinians were celebrating the October 7th attack, which is a massive weight of evidence in favour of your earlier post.
Palestinians were celebrating the October 7th attack,
What? All of them? Must have been some party! Or is it perhaps just a cherry picked report intended to promote a certain narrative?
If I had thinner skin I’d probably be offended at the Nazi insinuation
And if you had read the thread more diligently you would have realised that my comment regarding atrocities committed by the allies was aimed at benos not you.
Benos was repeating the usual whatabout Hamas this and whatabout Hamas that when Israeli war crimes was being discussed.
But since you seem to have a fixation with accusations of comparisons with the Nazis (you repeatedly mentioned that Nazis despite the fact that I only mentioned them once) here is a speech made in the House of Commons by a Zionist whose family died in the Holocaust and who repeatedly made comparisons between the behaviour of Israeli governments and the Nazis.
It is in my opinion one of the greatest ever speeches made in support of Palestine. And the fact that it was made by someone who was brought up as an Orthodox Jew and Zionist adds to its quality.
I suspect that you won't listen to it as it obviously doesn't fit into your preferred narrative.
Christ, that speech by Gerald Kaufman is incredible!
@ernielynch to respond to the point I think you were making with the poster, what we also saw today were hostages rescued from where they’d been held captive in residential buildings in a refugee camp. The civilians killed in the operation were those Hamas was willing to sacrifice for its aims.
And like Ox, I don’t support Israel’s action in Gaza either. There are enough lessons from history to know how guerrilla warfare against an enemy ruthless enough to sacrifice its own women and children will end. I think the main difference between our views is that I want Israel to exist, while you don’t.
And so to your second point (although tbh I’m not sure what you meant either) I can condemn war crimes and atrocities committed by either side in a war. I wouldn’t try to justify targeting civilians, hostage-taking, or the use of human shields by anyone.
As for whataboutery, look at your posts this afternoon:
Whatabout
Deflect
Accuse
Repeat
My original point wasn’t whataboutery. The IDF went into a residential area and came out with rescued hostages, so there no ambiguity about the nature of the target. By claiming casualties, Hamas admits to war crimes.
And like Ox, I don’t support Israel’s action in Gaza either.
Who the hell does?
Israel's actions in Gaza are utterly indefensible, no one is even going to attempt to support or defend them.
Apart from the occasional half-arsed comment trying to claim that it is Hamas who stealing aid from the Palestinians and that it has nothing to do with Israel deliberately starving them.
Trying to deflect criticism onto Hamas is about as much as can be expected.
Every day brings more bad news for Israel as its international isolation grows.
Colombia will suspend coal exports to Israel over war in Gaza
Israel imports more than 50% of its coal from Colombia, according to the American Journal for Transportation, and uses much of it to feed its power plants.
The civilians killed in the operation were those Hamas was willing to sacrifice for its aims.
And like Ox, I don’t support Israel’s action in Gaza either.
You don’t see any contradiction in these two statements? You say you don’t support Israel’s action but you parrot their depraved justification of slaughter of civilians.
Israel’s actions in Gaza are utterly indefensible, no one is even going to attempt to support or defend them.
Apart from, for example, the President of the USA, and people who actually have power and influence. And the UK PM-in-waiting.
The IDF went into a residential area and came out with rescued hostages, so there no ambiguity about the nature of the target. By claiming casualties, Hamas admits to war crimes.
As you’ve no idea about the location of the casualties in relation to the hostages, the method of injury or the reason why they were targeted (they could just have been targeted as a diversion to distract Hamas guards) you’re pretty much making things up.
'I want Israel to exist' is just wordplay, the subtext being 'I want apartheid Israel to exist'. The only way all this can end is a single secular democratic state where all ethnicities enjoy equal status and opportunities.
a residential area
Too funny. You make it sound like Brookside. And not a squalid overcrowded hellscape where a traumatised population was sheltering. But yeah- blame someone else.
Apart from, for example, the President of the USA, and people who actually have power and influence. And the UK PM-in-waiting.
Yeah but they don't post on STW.
Last year on here there were a few who tried to defend Israel's actions, but 8 months on and with the constant evidence of war crimes, starvation, and 15 thousand dead children, no one is willing to have a go at justifying Israel's actions any more.
The best that they can hope for is to ask whatabout Hamas?
no one is willing to have a go at justifying Israel’s actions any more.
Oh, I dunno …
The civilians killed in the operation were those Hamas was willing to sacrifice for its aims.
IDF soldiers (terrorists to some) are filming themselves burning libraries in Gaza.
Obviously this has nothing whatsoever to do with fighting Hamas but everything to do with eradicating a people's culture and nationhood.
A glimpse into the future of Gaza:
https://twitter.com/BeckyCNN/status/1800548798113992937
This is a must-watch, exclusive report from CNN's Chief International Correspondent. Five years after the defeat of ISIS, more than 50,000 ISIS followers are being held in a constellation of US prisons and camps across Northeast Syria. @clarissaward
gained extraordinary access to some of the facilities. A warning that you may find some of these images disturbing.
I saw that ^^ last week and it is really excellent, unfortunately despite a couple of attempts, and my determination, because it is an hour long I haven't yet been able to watch it all the way through without dozing off!
The picture it paints of the final throes of the zionist experiment is spot on imo.
I have learnt quite a few things since Oct 7 2023 with regards to Palestine and the solidarity movement but one thing which particularly stands for me is how all the very best analysis of the situation in Palestine seems to invariably come from Jews generally but Israeli Jews in particular.
I think it is driven by a couple of things, firstly their deep understanding of Zionism and the Zionist mindset, and secondly the deep passion they feel in their revulsion of gross injustices and crimes committed supposedly in their name, and the appalling use of the Holocaust as a smokescreen.
Gerald Kaufman's speech from the floor of the House of Commons is an excellent example of this.
Daniel Matè makes the point that for a Jew who makes the journey from supporting Zionism, to realising how totally indefensible it is, the process involves going through a 'one-way door'. Once they have gone through that door no Jew ever goes back and embraces Zionism again.
And the commitment of so many Jews supporting justice for Palestine is not at all lost on the Muslim community which is actively involved in the solidarity movement. The above video I first saw posted on a WhatsApp group totally dominated by Muslim members. They fully understand that the struggle is between Palestinians and Zionists, not Palestinians and Jews. My local mosque invited a rabbi to speak a couple of months ago.
I have learnt quite a few things since Oct 7 2023 with regards to Palestine and the solidarity movement but one thing which particularly stands for me is how all the very best analysis of the situation in Palestine seems to invariably come from Jews generally but Israeli Jews in particular.
This interview with Ilan Pappé on the Israel lobby groups is worth a watch and slightly easier to follow,
Lowkey
This is what Twitter is good for, I’ve expanded an intro to it below as it deserves to be read.
This is an excellent report on the war in Gaza by Lee Mordechai Associate professor of History at Hebrew University , he lays out in his report, all 86 pages explaining why Israel is committing a genocide in the Gaza Strip, it’s a long read but very detailed and informative as to exactly what is happening, not just in Gaza but also regarding protests and media complicity. If you don’t wish to read all 86 pages then he roughly summarised it down to 28 tweets in the link.
https://twitter.com/LeeMordechai/status/1803052066652205400
Despite denying it for a long time, the IDF now admits to using Palestinians as human shields.....
Kinda hard to deny when you're caught on film strapping a wounded Palestinian to the front of your armoured truck.
It says "GRAPHIC WARNING", but if you've seen any amount of footage from Gaza this is pretty ****ing harmless.
Remind me again.... Why does Hamas have so many willing recruits?
Counting the dead in Gaza: difficult but essential
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext
In recent conflicts, such indirect deaths range from three to 15 times the number of direct deaths. Applying a conservative estimate of four indirect deaths per one direct death to the 37 396 deaths reported, it is not implausible to estimate that up to 186000 or even more deaths could be attributable to the current conflict in Gaza. Using the 2022 Gaza Strip population estimate of 2 375 259, this would translate to 7·9% of the total population in the Gaza Strip.
War crime?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jul/11/israeli-weapons-shrapnel-children-gaza-injured
Israeli-made weapons designed to spray high levels of shrapnel are causing horrific injuries to civilians in Gaza and disproportionately harming children, foreign surgeons who worked in the territory in recent months have told the Guardian.
The doctors say many of the deaths, amputations and life changing wounds to children they have treated came from the firing of missiles and shells – in areas crowded with civilians – packed with additional metal designed to fragment into tiny pieces of shrapnel.
IIRC fragmentation weapons are illegal under international law?
And an Israeli strike on a designated Humanitarian Area in which Israel has been urging civilians to gather - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cyx0qdkn45eo
War crime?.....IIRC fragmentation weapons are illegal under international law?
Israeli has shown over the previous 8 months that it couldn't give a flying **** what the rest of the world thinks, its about time for the rest of the world to show Israel it couldn't give a flying **** either.
Israeli has shown over the previous 8 months that it couldn’t give a flying * what the rest of the world thinks, its about time for the rest of the world to show Israel it couldn’t give a flying * either.
The rest of the world - the west, at least - has shown that it doesn't give the smallest whiff of intestinal gas what happens to the Palestinians. They are just brown people. Expendable. Compare and contrast with the outpouring of grief and transfer of weapons when a few kids in Kiev are killed by a Russian missile.
IIRC fragmentation weapons are illegal under international law?
I'm sure the IDF will be undertaking a rigorous and impartial investigation into this allegation.
I’m sure the IDF will be undertaking a rigorous and impartial investigation into this allegation.
Unfortunately Israel has been allowed to mark its own homework for so many years that it will award itself a merit badge as the majority of the western world and its leaders look the other way.
As for the fragmentation bombs, they’ve been reported on since the beginning of the year by the brave medical staff in Gaza, it’s only recently that the evidence is being reported on.
How the UK establishment views Gaza:
https://twitter.com/beckettunite/status/1811819884466131302?s=46&t=0EdQH2VaJpSkNmaw8CsUvg
(the police violently attacking a peaceful demonstrator)
Before this thread slips further from the front page.....
https://www.reddit.com/r/GreenAndPleasant/s/HKwXxX3NFa
This shit ain't happening on the other side of the fence.
[url= https://postimg.cc/mtL3ctxL ][img] https://i.postimg.cc/nc73PD0D/20240629-120815.avif [/img][/url]
I could slightly understand how genocide was allowed to happen in the 1700's or whatever. But the fact the world is allowing it to happen right in front of our eyes in this day and age really baffles me. War crimes caught on the news and still not a thing is being done. I still stand by what I said at the start of the conflict, if it had been any other country in the world that was of different skin colour or religion this would have been nipped in the bud pretty sharply.
But the fact the world is allowing it to happen right in front of our eyes in this day and age really baffles me.
That's not what baffles me most. Unfortunately this won't be the first time that the world stood back and did nothing whilst a genocide was taking place.
What makes this one unique is that many countries are giving political and diplomatic backing to the country carrying out the genocide.
And one country in particular is openly supplying the bombs, missiles, and other weapons, to the genocidal regime carrying out the genocide, whilst at the same time demanding that the genocide stops.
That's what baffles me most. I cannot recall anything like that before.
IIRC fragmentation weapons are illegal under international law?
Not as such. This doesn't prevent their use forming part of a case for war crimes on grounds of proportionality, for example
Lee Fang makes interesting observations about media manipulations but Jones looks, er, unwell.
Israeli must have known it could weather the short-lived media cycle. Now Gaza is just old news. Nobody cares.
different skin colour or religion
This is it — if these were babies with blue eyes and blonde hair being torn to shreds by the Israelis, there'd have been a military intervention months ago.
What the "war" in Gaza has achieved is a grotesque hypernormalization of state-sponsored atrocity. Russia "double tap" attacks in Ukraine? Bombing paediatric hospitals?
This is war is now in the 21st century. This is the new "self-defence".
Fragmentation weapons are not banned, only 'non detectable fragmentation weapons', cluster bombs are banned though.
Was wondering why the below story wasn't discussed on here, widely reported and an absolutely horrific event?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz9drj14e0lo
What the “war” in Gaza has achieved is a grotesque hypernormalization of state-sponsored atrocity.
That happened decades ago. I honestly can't remember any point in my lifetime when some group of people in the Middle East wasn't committing horrific atrocities to some other group.
cluster bombs are banned though
Not if you didn't sign the 2008 Convention on Cluster Munitions. Lithuania decided to withdraw just yesterday because Russia still uses them https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-polytics/3886616-lithuania-pulls-from-convention-banning-cluster-munitions.html
Small cluster munitions aren't banned at all
some group of people in the Middle East wasn’t committing horrific atrocities to some other group.
Some group of people? Pretty much all of those conflicts listed in your link include European involvement, in fact some like Suez only involved Europeans attacking and killing Middle Eastern people.
Maybe some group of Europeans committing atrocities against the indigenous people and stoking up wars for their own self interest would be a better description?
And currently it is Western backed settlers slaughtering the indigenous people of Palestine because they want their land
Maybe some group of Europeans committing atrocities against the indigenous people and stoking up wars for their own self interest would be a better description?
Isn't that just the last 1500 years?
UK to resume Unrwa funding. Announced in parliament by Lammy...
"I can confirm to the house that we are overturning the suspension of UNRWA funding, Britain will provide £21m in funds"
That's excellent. And I think only the United States hasn't resumed funding now..... what a great Democrat president they have!
He organises airdrops of humanitarian aid after supplying the far-right regime with bombs to drop on civilians.
It would be nice if the UK upped the UNRWA funding btw, I think Germany gives 5 times more to UNRWA than the UK.
Hopefully a Labour government will prove to be more generous in alleviating the suffering of the Palestinian tragedy than the previous Tory government.
I think only the United States hasn’t resumed funding now
I think that’s the case, yes.
ICJ gives opinion on Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c2x05n7m3xet
Nothing on the BBC page yet but apparently (and perhaps unsurprisingly) it's not going in Israel's favour.
Chris, the link to the live feed is in the front page for me
Edit, do you mean live updates summarising the ongoing event?
Small cluster munitions aren’t banned at all
Phew!! That's a relief!! So the IDF are still the "world's most moral army" 🙂
https://twitter.com/jeremyrh/status/1813106730446037050?s=46&t=0EdQH2VaJpSkNmaw8CsUvg
JUST IN: A CHILD WITH AUTISM AND DOWN SYNDROM WAS EATEN ALIVE BY ISRAELI DOGS AND EXECUTED BY SOLDIERS.
The story of Mohammad Bhar, he was attacked by dogs that were set on him by the soldiers.
He kept patting the dog’s head while saying “that’s enough my dear”
ICJ says Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories is illegal
I think we all knew that already but the next obvious question is "what's the international community going to do about that?"
The first step must surely be to implement sanctions. Hopefully the new Attorney General will make the case for sanctions to uphold international law.
Another question must be whether any help or support to Israel to maintain it's illegal occupation from other countries is also an international crime.
Israel simply cannot maintain its illegal occupation of Palestinian land without help from other countries.
Time to get the removal vans into the west bank and kick them all out, give them tents and tell them to **** off, or place a worldwide travel ban and freeze all bank accounts on all 700,000 inhabitants of the West Bank.
In breach of Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, which means that it constitutes a war crime.
It said other nations were obliged not to “render aid or assistance in maintaining” Israel’s presence in the territories.
Well done the ICJ for sticking to the rule of law. I bet with the US election in swing and the potential backlash against the UN for not siding with Israel there would likely be political pressure on it. But if Trump does win I can see the US using this as an excuse to withdraw from the UN (although I wouldn't put it past the current incarnation of the democrats either).