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So Gaddafi's dead. Pity he wasn't attached to two pick up trucks and pulled apart.
Hora, I don't think anyone is mourning Gadaffi, the concerns that are being raised relate to how a debt free creditor nation with some of the best infrastructure, education, healthcare and womens rights in Africa(unesco words not mine), is now being offered 'loans' by the IMF for rebuilding.
As has already been mentioned, some of the first actions of the new government has been to implement aspects of Sharia law, the corner stone of any free 'Western' style democracy.
Time will tell but the separatist behaviour of the Misrata Brigade and the fact that most of the rebellion soldiers previously served Gadaffi, were trained in his torturous ways and have already killed leaders within their own ranks doesn't bode well in terms of getting the result the west hoped for.
Lets just see how the Libyans get on with themselves.
Apparently mrs Gaddafi has a personal wealth of $30billion.
After all we can't hold up Afghanistan or Iraq as models of our intervention can we?
You can practically see him sneering as he inserted those quote marks around that "liberation". This is not a "liberation", says Milne, no matter what the Libyans celebrating think. And why's that? Well, mostly it seems because it's supported by the West, but if we take him at face value, it's because there have been lots of deaths. Milne is right to point out that the rebels are not quite ideal liberators, following the Geneva convention. Undoubtedly many have committed war crimes. But Milne slips into apology for Gaddafi when he adds this:"These figures dwarf the death tolls in this year's other most bloody Arab uprisings, in Syria and Yemen. Nato has not protected civilians in Libya – it has multiplied the number of their deaths, while losing not a single soldier of its own."
This is ridiculous. Nato has only multiplied deaths if you assume, as Milne clearly does, that these rebels have no legitimate fight with Colonel Gaddafi – they are just pawns of Nato. The Syrian comparison is telling: for Milne, the smaller number of deaths in Syria (so far) is argument for leaving President Assad in charge. Syrians are better off under Assad than Libyans are without Gaddafi, because they have not endured Western intervention.
Sound familiar?
Undoubtedly many have committed war crimes. But Milne slips into apology for Gaddafi when he adds this:
Unlike the Telegraph writer of course, who is making apologies for the rebel's war crimes. Also, who would have though the Telegraph would be so keen on installing a regime that wants Sharia law?
So Gaddafi's dead. Pity he wasn't attached to two pick up trucks and pulled apart.
He was sodomized with a bayonet before he died, is that better for you?
Unlike the Telegraph writer of course, who is making apologies for the rebel's war crimes
oh look
Undoubtedly many have committed war crimes.
So you think its acceptable for nato forces to kill many tens of thousands of people in a country that was peaceful befoer the nato intervention?
Unlike the Telegraph writer of course, who is making apologies for the rebel's war crimes
In civil war there are no rules. If our society broke down and we were fighting partisan fighters based in Derby and they had captured and machine-gunned 50 of our colleagues the week before and set fire to the rest would you capture, treat them well, hand out cigarettes and food?
Or would you shoot, push on and carry on advancing?
In World war II BOTH sides strayed into shades of grey.
Also, lets not forget the carpet bombing of civilians, women and children.
So, when someone who profited, slayed his countrymen/crushing opposition, killed innocents abroad gets pulled out of a drain and shot very quickly- what do you want me to do? Mourn him?
TandemJeremy - Member
So you think its acceptable for nato forces to kill many tens of thousands of people in a country that was peaceful befoer the nato intervention?
Lets remind ourselves of that "peace"
The rebels' leader has appealed to the international community to stop the pro-Gaddafi bombardment, but the government denies it is attacking.Reports suggest hundreds of cars packed with people were fleeing the city eastwards as fighting spread.
"Now there is a bombardment by artillery and rockets on all districts of Benghazi," rebel leader Mustafa Abdul Jalil told Al Jazeera television. "There will be a catastrophe if the international community does not implement the resolutions of the UN Security Council.
UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon says the world must "speak with one voice" on Libya.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12793919
:facepalm:
oh look
That's exactly my point, but as you seem to be a little hard of thinking I'll spell it out for you. What is the purpose of his sentence 'undoubtedly many have committed war crimes' - other than to say, 'but that's ok because they're on our side'?
Try reading the comments on that article - even the Telegraph readers can see that it's utter rubbish.
So, when someone who profited, slayed his countrymen/crushing opposition, killed innocents abroad gets pulled out of a drain and shot very quickly- what do you want me to do? Mourn him?
Someone who also created the highest standards of living in Africa, but let's ignore that eh? Do you really not see the problem when we are supporting a rebellion in the name of human rights and democracy, that those we help install carry out summary executions and torture?
Whats a facepalm please?
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Oh lordy I cannot believe you said that I am incredoulous with the stupidity of your comment. Words fail me etc
I am not following the this thread at all and am simply answering the question. I have no idea if it is deserved or not on here or even who it was said to
Does this sound familiar? Bit like the warning Gaddafi made to the residents of Benghazi that was apparently the reason we decided to intervene? What happens when the deadline comes - a massacre? I'm sure it's completely different of course, because they're the 'good guys'.
Libyan rebels said on Tuesday they are ready for the “final battle” of the six-month uprising by issuing an ultimatum to Gaddafi loyalists in Sirte to surrender by Saturday or face an all-out military assault.
mcboo - Member
Whats a facepalm please?
An internet cliche used when a poster wishes to make a witty comment but lacks the vocabulary and articulacy to do any more than 'copy and paste' 😆
Just love how people sat in warm cosy homes with no experience of war can say what and how people should behave in the heat of battle with lack of sleep and being fired at day in day out.
Lets not forget Gaddafi brought foreign mercenaries in to quell his people and had snipers firing.
Again, if it was here in the UK how would you feel?
When the chavs ran riot in a few UK cities this year how safe or scared did you feel?
An internet cliche used when a poster wishes to make a witty comment but lacks the vocabulary and articulacy to do any more than 'copy and paste'
Nice try, except I then went on to explain how he'd so spectacularly missed the point. Again.
Just love how people sat in warm cosy homes with no experience of war can say what and how people should behave in the heat of battle with lack of sleep and being fired at day in day out.
So by that token any atrocities committed by Gaddafi's troops were fine too because it was done in the heat of battle.
When the chavs ran riot in a few UK cities this year how safe or scared did you feel?
I was in central London when it broke out, can't say it bothered me too much - relevance?
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An internet cliche used when a poster wishes to make a witty comment but lacks the vocabulary and articulacy to do any more than 'copy and paste'
a country that was peaceful befoer the nato intervention?
Teeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeejaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!!!!!!
hora - Member
Just love how people sat in warm cosy homes with no experience of war can say what and how people should behave in the heat of battle with lack of sleep and being fired at day in day out.
Oh shut up. I can say that summary executions are wrong, torture to attain confessions is wrong and bombarding a city while claiming to be protecting civilians is wrong.
Comparing the UK riots (which if you hadn't noticed wasn't 'chavs' it was people across the spectrum) to the war in Libya is utterly fatuous.
Comparing the UK riots (which if you hadn't noticed wasn't 'chavs' it was people across the spectrum) to the war in Libya is utterly fatuous.
+1
It's heartening to see that those from opposing ends of the political spectrum can come together and agree that hora is full of shit.
mcboo - not going to actually bother answering any of the points I've made? Thought not.
Eh well I hadnt noticed any points that appeared directed at me. Let me go back and have a look. Maybe TJ will show his face again.....he does go missing when the going gets tough.
Comparing the UK riots (which if you hadn't noticed wasn't 'chavs' it was people across the spectrum) to the war in Libya is utterly fatuous.
****ing hell. I was saying on a lower level here you were a wee bit scared/feeling unsecure and thats in a democratic country ffs.
In addition, they werent 'across the spectrum'. 40% were claiming benefits and an additional 20% were on incapacity or disabled benefit(s).
Within the age range analysis a large proportion were also under the age of 116/17.... So they wouldn't be classed as benefit claimants...yet.
The stats were published in the Independent (or Times?) earlier this week.
Grum, wind your neck in.
Edit...
"People across the spectrum": http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8764809/London-rioters-had-average-15-previous-offences-figures-show.html
mcboo - not going to actually bother answering any of the points I've made? Thought not.
Do you really not see the problem when we are supporting a rebellion in the name of human rights and democracy, that those we help install carry out summary executions and torture?
This? Thats the excuse that the likes of Henry Kissinger and the rest of the realpolitik right in the US have always used to justify their support for authoritarian regimes in the Middle East. They plant the fear that OK, while he's a bastard, he's our bastard, the alternative is Al Queda and anarchy. If there is one thing that drives Arabs crazy its that and thats why liberals ought to be supporting the revolutions.
Each country is different, in Eqypt the army was key, they stuck together, refused to fire on the protestors so things flipped pretty quickly with much less loss of life. Libya was a different case, as is Syria.
So Grum, that's my point of view, I hope I sound like I have thought things through. You do like to shout at me, I'd really appreciate it if you would take it down a notch or two. Lets start with one notch. Fair enough?
In addition, the rioters were opportunistic losers. They were hardly tortured in dungeons or stopped from speaking their mind on politics.
hora - Member**** hell. I was saying on a lower level here you were a wee bit scared/feeling unsecure and thats in a democratic country ffs.
Was I?
hora - Member
In addition, the rioters were opportunistic losers. They were hardly tortured in dungeons or stopped from speaking their mind on politics.
So what's your point?
They plant the fear that OK, while he's a bastard, he's our bastard
I would argue the complete opposite - to me this is the argument of those supporting the rebels. While they are bastards, they're our bastards.
If there is one thing that drives Arabs crazy its that and thats why liberals ought to be supporting the revolutions.
I don't think you can generalise about what drives the Arabs crazy as if they are a homogenous group. I broadly support the 'arab spring' and hope it succeeds in bringing greater freedom for people in those countries, but I don't really see Libya as fitting into that movement very well. Given the history of British interference in Libya and elsewhere I would be very suspicious of any 'revolution' that gets the support of the British government.
So Grum, that's my point of view, I hope I sound like I have thought things through. You do like to shout at me, I'd really appreciate it if you would take it down a notch or two. Lets start with one notch. Fair enough?
That was a more reasonable and considered post, it just often seems like you are trolling though TBH - you make an inflammatory post, then don't bother to actually debate it.
Don't know. Given up. People sat behind PC's trying to say people on a battlefield should carry a code of conduct with them in a civil war is ridiculous.
Carry on- I imagine you also know all about deep sea diving and the answers to life.
Don't know.
No, you really don't.
hora - Member
Don't know. Given up. People sat behind PC's trying to say people on a battlefield should carry a code of conduct with them in a civil war is ridiculous.
Why?
Carry on- I imagine you also know all about deep sea diving and the answers to life.
What a strange leap of logic!
People sat behind PC's trying to say people on a battlefield should carry a code of conduct with them in a civil war is ridiculous.
It's called the Geneva Convention. All soldiers are versed in it.
It's called the Geneva Convention. All soldiers are versed in it.
They weren't soldiers.
They weren't soldiers.
Thats true.
Doesn't matter that they weren't soldiers. What they did would still be a crime under Libyan law, and if the new Libyan government is unable or unwilling to prosecute them for it, they could be tried by the ICC under the Rome Convention (my GF has a doctorate in international human rights law 😉 ).
hora - Member
People sat behind PC's trying to say people on a battlefield should carry a code of conduct with them in a civil war is ridiculous.
Bosnia?
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratko_Mladi%C4%87 ]This bloke?[/url]
Seumas Milne is the only commentator/opinion writer in the Guardian who's articles I bother reading. I read the Guardian most weekdays purely for its news content (although I quite like the letters page too) but I always look forward to Thursdays because Seumas Milne invariably hits the nail firmly on the head with his analysis. I don't reckon much more than a fag paper separates me and him politically.
So it's nice to see that Telegraph readers consider him significant and that he ruffles their feathers......thanks for the tip mcboo.
He openly describes himself as a Marxist.
Go for it Ernie!
He openly describes himself as a Marxist.
Does he, where has he done that ? .....or did you just make that up ? Have you ever read any article by Seumas Milne ? I think you'll find that he concentrates on political analysis and topical argument, rather than waste time claiming inconsequential political labels.
I seldom mention the fact that my views are Marxist, firstly it actually means surprisingly little in terms of accurately pinpointing someone's political stance. And secondly, it's quite pointless - you need to argue for what you believe in, rather than expect a label to do that for you. On the rare occasions that I apply a label to myself I generally describe myself as a Leninist, but that in itself throws up as many questions as answers.
No one wants to hear how you describe yourself - they'll judge for what you say and do. At least they should.
And this strategy is pretty much the norm for the non-sectarian left. Quote :
[i]"The Communists do not form a separate party opposed to the other working-class parties.
They have no interests separate and apart from those of the proletariat as a whole.
They do not set up any sectarian principles of their own, by which to shape and mould the proletarian movement. "[/i]
Karl Marx/Friedrich Engels
"A revolution without firing squads is meaningless"
Lenin
"A revolution without firing squads is meaningless"
It's fun to make up quotes and attribute them to someone we disagree with, isn't it mcboo ? The only limitation is the author's imagination.
And of course it excuses you from the tiresome task of having to provide an intellectual argument.
Like slapping a label on someone and expecting that to do all the work, it's quite a favourite with the intellectually bankrupt.
I take it that you can't back up your claim that Seumas Milne "openly describes himself as a Marxist" then ?..... it's just something you made up or heard someone else say ?
BTW, here's a couple of other people who's opinions concerning the current global crises, as well as Milne's, I agree with. Firstly there's George Magnus - senior economic adviser to the UBS Investment Bank, and [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/3366527/George-Magnus-the-man-who-predicted-the-sub-prime-crisis-would-lead-to-recession-profile.html ]the man who predicted the sub-prime crisis would lead to recession[/url], according to the Daily Telegraph.
And secondly, Nouriel Roubini - economic advisor to the IMF, the US Federal Reserve, and the World Bank. Roubini predicted in 2006 that homeowners would default on mortgages, trillions of dollars of mortgage-backed securities would unravel worldwide and the global financial system would shudder to a halt, all this could cripple or destroy hedge funds, investment banks and other major financial institutions. He was called [url= http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/magazine/17pessimist-t.html ]Dr Doom[/url] because of his dire predictions, which were dismissed as nonsense. Today he is hailed as a prophet.
But hang on a second.......George Magnus, senior economic adviser to the UBS Investment Bank, is openly Marxist :
[url= http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-29/give-marx-a-chance-to-save-the-world-economy-commentary-by-george-magnus.html ]Give Karl Marx a Chance to Save the World Economy: George Magnus[/url]
And wait........Nouriel Roubini, economic advisor to the IMF, the US Federal Reserve, and the World Bank, is also openly Marxist :
[url= http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/233607/20111018/roubini-nouriel-roubini-dr-doom-marx-karl-marx-financial-crisis-banks-banking-sector-capitalism-debt.htm?cid=2 ]Nouriel ‘Dr. Doom’ Roubini: Karl Marx Was Right[/url]
What do you say to that mcboo ......... have you got a made up quote you can throw at me ?
Ooof, tough round for mcboo he must have been praying for the bell
mcboo - you say you want to 'take it down a notch or two' and have a more reasonable debate - but then you just make trollish posts like this with no actual argument. 🙄
"A revolution without firing squads is meaningless"Lenin
That's an interesting description of what constitutes a "Communist", Ernie.
Are you saying that. as a "Communist", a person would support a workable form of Capitalism, if it enabled a good standard of living for all?
Would that standard of living need to be equal and homogenous?
Are you saying that. as a "Communist", a person would support a workable form of Capitalism, if it enabled a good standard of living for all?
Of course ! ...... well the most workable form of Capitalism, ultimately Capitalism isn't workable due to its inherent contradictions.
Those with a Trotskyite persuasion might have another opinion however. Their "idealogical purity" often requires them to take a sectarian stance which denounces such talk as "class collaboration" etc. But I'm all for class collaboration if it delivers results which favour ordinary working people, what is described as "immediate gains". I'm not a prisoner to my ideology, it's there as a tool to serve the best interests of society as a whole.