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LOL : By what token do you think stopping, backing up and trying to drive around the guy is oppressive, oppressive is not stopping and running the ****er down. Thats my point.
At that time, the protest had gone on from April to June. The shootings were in response to attacks on the soldiers sent to clear the square, and after numerous warnings were given. I'm not in any way defending shooting civilians, just making the point that the pictures shown here and the reality of those pictures were different.
The whole issue was based on the pace of change at the time, and there were strongly differing opinions in government on that subject. Some thought the way forward was to democratise immediately, however the ruling group at the time preferred what they referred to as the blossoming lotus, i.e. gradual structured change. The reason being that they had seen exactly what had gone on in Russia at the time, and were deeply concerned about anarchy. They actually tolerated the demonstration for about 10 or 12 weeks before finally losing patience. Does that sound oppresive to you? In fact they had tried very hard to avoid violence. Furthermore, given the fact that it is a totaliterian state, do you honestly believe that they would have allowed Western journalists to be in the vicinity had they intended there to be violence on the scale that there was? At that time all foriegners had to register their presence with the Police, and they knew exactly where you were at all times. Clearly they deliberately set themselves up for what happened right?
[i]LOL : By what token do you think stopping, backing up and trying to drive around the guy is oppressive, oppressive is not stopping and running the ****er down. Thats my point. [/i]
Everyone knows the man wasn't run-over. It also showed the humanity of an individual tank commander despite the oppression.
[i]They actually tolerated the demonstration for about 10 or 12 weeks before finally losing patience. Does that sound oppresive to you? [/i]
I'm lost for words. If that's how your mind works it seems pointless engaging in any further conversation.
This is silly - G, can you tell us the whereabouts of that protestor now?
I think it's disgraceful that G is trying to make analogies that put the fine, upstanding British Bobby in the same category as a shock troop of the Chinese People's Liberation Army that would brutally attack unarmed civilians for engaging in their right to protest and association.
Oh, wait, hold on...
For the record, at the time I was engaged in attempts to start a factory out there, and was amongst the first Western businessmen to try to do business there in that way. The aftershocks knocked us back years, and got even worse when that dick Chris Patton became governor of Hong Kong and started wattling on about democracy.
Unbelievable.
Seems that G was more concerned about his own dissatisfaction with not being able to make money, than the Human Rights of an entire nation.
And G, you had the gall to try and criticise me, for my opinions?
To me, people matter more than money.
Because you see surfer, unlike Daily Mail reading coppers, I have the ability to think for myself and I don't base 'where I stand' on irrational prejudices.
So its not an irrational prejudice to assume Police officers all read the Daily Mail? Is it only me that can see the irony in this comment?
The "ability to think for yourself" indeed!
My point was not so much about what happened as we probably share similar opinions. It was more to do with your baseless assertions at the heart of it.
However all that has changed now. After last week's incident in which the police went on the rampage, intimidated, threaten, and committing acts of gratuitous violence in an attempt to stop people from exercising their lawful rights, I fully intend to go to all similar future protests, if only to protest for the sake of protesting.
Good for you. This type of police brutality has been widespread in protests that I have attended, seen reliable footage of or been advised by trustworthy friends who have been on the spot, for years. These recent events may have pricked your conscience and when you attend these protests in future maybe you will come back with a more balanced argument than the police are all "Daily Mail readers"
surfer - Member
Is it only me that can see the irony in this comment?
Quite possibly yes.
Because you see surfer, other punters might have read my post properly. Without the anger and the adrenaline pumping through their veins, they might have not have misjudged my intentions and concluded a false premise that I had claimed all coppers are Daily Mail readers.
Don't consider a career in 'detective work' surfer, you really are rubbish. Just look at the quote which [u]you yourself[/u] took from my post, where do you see the word "all" ? A distinct lack of 'evidence' I'm sure you'll agree.
I am fully aware that not all coppers are Daily Mail readers. In fact my two [i]very close mates[/i] who have recently retired from the Met, were [i]both[/i] Guardian readers.
And I doubt very much indeed that my nephew who has recently joined the Met is a Daily Mail reader, after all it was his father my much older brother, who first introduced [i]me[/i] to the Guardian.
I am also fully aware that most coppers aren't thugs. However, I think that it would be fair to say that those who are, and also those who consider that people who are concerned about Climate Change are "scum", typically get their opinions from the Sun and Daily Mail.
Perhaps surfer if you looked at things with a cool head, you wouldn't jump to wrong conclusions.
In my short life, all the dealings (no, I'm not a crim) I've had with the police have lead me to believe that coppers are good for **** all.
Coppers are just the kids at school that were either:
a) bullied
b) grasses to the teachers
c) crap with girls
or
d) all of the above
RudeBoy - Member
Unbelievable.Seems that G was more concerned about his own dissatisfaction with not being able to make money, than the Human Rights of an entire nation.
And G, you had the gall to try and criticise me, for my opinions?
To me, people matter more than money.
Its difficult for me to understand what your point is there Rude boy, given that you know sweet FA about me or my motivations. However, its a different issue for a different thread at another time, only marginally relevant to this one. The point I was making is that pictorial evidence is not always what it seems. Given your stance on "conspiracy theories" I would have thought you might have been able to think outside the box and actually analyise the evidence before you own eyes and realise that there is more than one way to interprete what you see. As I said before I am not seeking to justify the Chinese governments actions, merely to point out that there is a possiblity, nay even a strong liklihood that Western journalists may have misrepresented what they saw to suit a story that they had in mind without necessarily stepping back and looking at the bigger picture. Happy to debate it with you, but not here, as that would be hijacking someone elses thread.
Incidentally, in terms of your criticism of my role at the time, what is freedom to you? To me it starts with things like freedom from hunger. At the time China was amongst one of the poorest nations on earth, now it is very close to being a first world economy, and I'm here to tell you that the average Chinese citizen is vastly better off now in every sense than they were then. Why? Because of the opening up of their political system and economic development. Again, there is good and there is bad as in all things, but it certainly isn't as black and white as you seem to like to paint it.
Regarding the last comment regarding democracy. I used to think the same way, until a Hong Kong based friend of mine nailed me with this simple line. "if democracy is so important to you people now, how come it hasn't been for the last 197 years?" thats was 3 years before the handback. At that time I was unaware that there had never ever been a democratic election in Hong Kong. So pick the pips out of that before you start wattling on about how naughty the Chinese are, at a time where there is more freedom and democracy in that country than at any time in the last 5000 years or so!
Its difficult for me to unerstand what your point is there Rude boy, given that you know sweet FA about me or my motivations
I think he might be going by the sort of things you are saying, you know .... stuff like :
"I was engaged in attempts to start a factory out there, and was amongst the first Western businessmen to try to do business there in that way. The aftershocks knocked us back years, and got even worse when that dick Chris Patton became governor of Hong Kong and started wattling on about democracy."
It kinda paints a picture of the sort of person you are.
And I have to say, it's not a pretty picture.
Really?
So declaring my interest openly and honestly makes me a nasty person?? And what do you both do for a living, RSPCA inspector? Human Rights Activist? Obviously never buying any product sourced from what you consider to be an oppressive regime then??
However, moving away from the personal slurs for a moment, which other bit of my point did you not understand GG?
However, moving away from the personal slurs for a moment, which other bit of my point did you not understand GG?
Personal slur ? I see it more as a 'personal opinion'.
And as far as understanding the points which you are making is concerned, I think I pretty much understand what you are saying thank you.
Although I will admit that I haven't bothered reading most of the stuff you've posted. I was merely attracted by a comment which RB made in one of his posts, I thought "surely G didn't say that", so I looked back and discovered that you in fact had.
And since you ask, I'm a building worker. I've never quite worked out what RB does for a living ......... sits on his ar5e all day earning fukkall, by all accounts.
Although I will admit that I haven't bothered reading most of the stuff you've posted
Cheers for that, it places your comment in context.
Anyway, like I said happy to debate the point regarding Chinese human rights situation very fully, but not here, its not what this thread is about, and I've no intention of hijacking it. The only point I was seeking to make, is that pictures do not always convey the truth of a situation, and in fact can easily be manipulated.
There were a couple in particular that I saw regarding Tibet around the time of the Olympics which were particularly distasteful. One showing a Policeman in Blue DPM fatigues smacking the snot out of a demonstrator with a baton, over the caption Chinese Police stifle protest. The Chinese Police do not wear Blue DPM. In all probability it was a Nepalese Policeman, where they do and they do also fairly ruthlessly put down Pro Tibetan protests. The other being of a helmeted Policeman bent double running down the road dragging a bleeding man with him, over a similar caption. The same picture coincidentally was run in The China Daily, although it was the full picture and not the edited version used here, with the background of rioters throwing missiles and burning property. That one had the heading along the lines of Police save Han Chinese man from rioters. I make no comment on the veracity of either, other than to point out that only one interpretation can be correct.
Now look what you've made me do G, I've just had to read your whole post, can't you make a few paragraphs to make the whole thing a bit more 'palatable' ffs ?
Cheers fot that, it places your comment in context.
Yeah, in context of what I read.
its not what this thread is about, and I've no intention of hijacking it
I think you've pretty much done that already ...... when was the last time you mentioned Ian Tomlinson's name ?
.
BTW I agree with much/some (?) of the sentiments in some of your posts (the bits which I bothered reading) But your comment regarding Cris Patten was a crap one imo. Yes, unlike apparently you, I was fully aware of the poor human rights record of the British Empire, I don't however believe that it's [i]ever[/i] too late to do the right thing.
Naive frankly!
Regarding my lack of awareness of the democratic situation in Hong Kong, to be honest it never occurred to me that anyone would be cock enough to start lecturing the Chinese on that subject from that political position. Understandably, the Chinese governement of the day found it somewhat bemusing as I still do.
Anyway if you wish to have a pop at me or my views on that subject start another thread, I'm not going to respond again on this one
to be honest it never occurred to me that anyone would be cock enough to start lecturing the Chinese on that subject from that political position.
Well you were indeed 'naive'. How the fukk do you think the British empire was built ....... through a 'democratic process' ffs ? By very definition the countries which came under British imperial control where not democracies - they were conquered lands.
However, as Britain relinquished control and 'the winds of change' swept through the British Empire, Britain tried to ensure that democratic structures were in place before independence was granted. Have you got a problem with that ?
Obviously where democracy did not serve Britain's best interests Britain was prepared to support/prop up dictators and absolute rulers. But this is something which should be condemned, not actually applauded.
.
btw, Start another thread to cover this topic G ? I think you should start another thread to cover the case of Ian Tomlinson, the poor fukker who was attacked whilst going about his lawful business. As I reckon this thread is now well and truly buggered.
BTW G, the reason I didn't initially bother reading your posts (apart from the fact that they looked long, boring, and without paragraphs) was that they appeared to have nothing to do with Ian Tomlinson.
.
Ian Tomlinson ........ remember him ?
Oh look, according to my favourite paper the latest development is that......... the copper who assaulted Ian Tomlinson has [b]collapsed[/b] 😯
Quote :
[i]"The officer, from the Metropolitan Police’s Territorial Support Group (TSG), collapsed at his home after realising he had been captured on film allegedly pushing newspaper seller Ian Tomlinson to the ground."[/i]
I guess the shock of knowing that he would be identified even after he had gone to all the trouble of hiding his face and removing his numbers, was probably too much for him.
People don't realise that just because someone beats the crap out of someone else in an unprovoked violent assault, it doesn't mean that deep down they're not really sensitive little souls.
[url= http://www.****/news/article-1169384/Officer-G20-protest-death-Ian-Tomlinson-signs-sick.html ]Officer in G20 protest death of Ian Tomlinson signs off sick[/url]
Bless.
What's his affliction? Anger management issues?
I really, really hope the family of Mr Tomlinson get justice.