[Closed] G20 Protest death - Ian Tomlinson - have we done this yet?

same as rightplace but different source http://london.indymedia.org.uk/videos/993

this is also interesting considering what happened to Ian Tomlinson:

(not from London BTW!)

Juan

What a ridiculous statement. Maybe you should think before you post?

Dasnut - the advert on the phonebox says "right behind you". Urk.

TimP - remember that juan is an excitable french leftie. He does think, but he thinks in quite a continental way. 😉

TimP I actually mean it.
I have read a book about police brutalities, a weekly independent news paper report every week police brutalities.
An acquaintance of me went into the police force and after the first BBQ where he was telling us how he got someone in the van and bully him we decided not to invite him anymore.
List go on and on and on. Now I even change side of the street when I see a copper.
I think they are thugs that deserve no compassion. And the worst part, is the fact that state and government usually cover that up.

So, God forbid, you were to have a car crash you would want the police to stay away? Or would you haul your bleeding ass off the tarmac and go and punch the nearest policeman?

If I had a car crash I would call the paramedic/firemen as it make more sense. But i think there is no point to argue with you on that as
My mind is made up and so is yours, so lets agree to disagree

Well, personally I think if I'd had a car-crash I would prefer an ambulance. Paramedic brutality is not a subject we hear a lot about, although that may be the result of a cover-up by the NHS... 😉

That video of the climate camp is disgraceful - the police are clearly creating the ones creating the unrest and violence. What are they trying to achieve there exactly? Is hitting people with shields and batons the way they are trained to control a non-violent crowd?

Grumm, my thoughts exactly. With tactics like that I'm surprised the protestors aren't shooting at them.

Mr Agreeable why do you think they have changed pavement for tarmac.

OK stop

TimP I actually mean it.
I have read a book about police brutalities,
List go on and on and on. Now I even change side of the street when I see a copper.
I think they are thugs that deserve no compassion. And the worst part, is the fact that state and government usually cover that up.

Your makeing a jump from one police officer attacking a person in a high stress situation to saying all police are thugs..

I was playing with my dog he got over exited and bit me..... so all dogs are just waiting to bite people all the time.

I got mugged by an asian lad so all asians must be......

can you see the way stupid sweaping generaliations head

I am more than happy to stop and talk to my local police i have thanked them b4 now for helping in the comunity and hats off to the ones that scraped me off the road and prosicuted the driver that put me there. The vast majority of police are fine officers that work hard to make this land a better place to live. They have to deal daily with the worst parts of humanity sides of this country that we can just ignore.
It also looks like the police officer has come forward.

can you see the way stupid sweaping generaliations head

I know a frenchman who is a liar and a ****

- but I'm not going to fall into the trap of making a sweeping generalisation about all frenchmen here.

As I said 2 days ago - using the actions of one or a few policemen to tar the whole police service serves neither the force nor does it help the [genuine] argument that the people making that assertion have, namely that the few involved need to be identified and held to account.

(This is entirely a side issue, but I'm not sure "frenchmen" and "police officers" can necessarily be treated in exactly the same way for these purposes. Presumably you become a police officer by choice, in the same way as you become a nurse, an estate agent, a teacher, a lavatory salesman, a dentist, a plumber or a concentration camp guard by choice. We are happy to accept that estate agents generally tell outrageous fibs because they operate in a culture where this is acceptable, even expected. [i]If[/i], as Gus suggests, police forces do in fact operate in a culture that turns out thugs, bullys and sadists then it is perfectly possible that most policemen will be thugs, bullys and sadists. It is not a racial trait, but an effect of training, socialisation and organisational culture. Of course, it is more likely that they are not like that all the time, but that their training in what is hilariously called "public order" tends to get them so pumped up that they tend to use wildly disproportionnate force without thinking too hard about it. If that's right then I think we can happily tar whole forces with that allegation, but require them to be trained and commanded differently so that they will do less of that sort of thing and we will like and trust them more as a result. I cannot accept however that a policeman who is pleasant and amiable when I see him wandering around my middle class neighbourhood, but who beats up peaceful protestors for fun when he gets the chance is a good policeman. He is a rotten policeman. )

The thing is, if this guy who pushed Ian Tomlinson does get suspended, charged etc, he will just be a scapegoat and the police can say 'look we dealt with the bad apple'.

But if you watch that video, it is clear that that kind of aggressive bullying behaviour was being displayed by large numbers of officers.

Fair point. I tend to disagree, I don't think all policemen are thugs and I think a fair proportion (I hope a large majority) would find the actions of this few reprehensible. If they don't come forward (and at least some are now), I would hope they are properly dobbed in it by their colleagues as a result.

That remains to be seen, and to me is a bigger issue actually than the incident itself, sad as that is for the people involve.

We don't need scapegoats, but we do need full and honest accountability from the people responsible, including those in charge.

its all OK everyone the terrorists are back just in time to *prove* how vital the Police are if the odd innocent gets killed to save us from the axis of evil then so be it ...

Considering the fact that the protests were predicted to be violent I do connect protester with violence and riots.

Predicted as such by whom?

I seem to recall a lot of media time being given to politicians and senior police officers stating that there would be violence. I do not recall many self-identified protestors predicting a riot.

Maybe ~I'm just paranoid, but it does seem like a well orchestrated campaign to dirty the protests of so many....

Fair point. I tend to disagree, I don't think all policemen are thugs and I think a fair proportion (I hope a large majority) would find the actions of this few reprehensible.

Sorry I meant the video of the climate camp, not the Ian Tomlinson one.

First time i've looked at the video and i think he deserved it. Walking slowly in front of the police deliberately antagonising them. Can't see how it contributed to the heart-attack, just a very sad coincidence.

I was actually responding to BD's post, that thuggish organisations attract thuggish people, which i do accept to an extent. Clearly, the football hoologan 'crews' of the 70's and 80's was an organisation you joined for that purpose, hence it is by definition going to attract only thugs.

Where I disagree is on the fact that the police service is a particularly thuggish organisation. I accept there are time when they need to be 'physical' let's say, and hence shrinking violets need not apply, but I still believe there are a few bad apples that spoil the barrel. Maybe I'm naive, I base this on my own dealings with them, maybe the proportion of thugs is higher than the std population for sake of argument, but I don't agree as per Juan's assertion that all policeman are thugs, any more that i believe that all frenchmen are lying ****s . Who smell.

@ Grumm - pure chance we both used 'scapegoat' in quick succession

I don't think all policemen are thugs and I think a fair proportion (I hope a large majority) would find the actions of this few reprehensible. If they don't come forward (and at least some are now), I would hope they are properly dobbed in it by their colleagues as a result.

Cops become institutionalized (like anyone who works in an institution). The same cop that was relatively efficient and polite in processing my traffic accident details at Charing Cross Police Station was bashing some guy over the head three days later.

Konabunny, I doubt it - apparently the policeman in the video was part of the territorial support group, a specialist squad of the Met who police large crowd events.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_Support_Group

The TSG are the successors to the Special Patrol Group of the 70s, who were widely considered to be heavy-handed thugs even by other divisions of London police.

[i]First time i've looked at the video and i think he deserved it. Walking slowly in front of the police deliberately antagonising them. [/i]

You couldn't make it up, really, could you? Whatever next - "he was walking on the cracks"?

Was I the only person to watch ITN news last night?

Did I imagine the whole video clip about 4 officers being cut off and attacked by 100’s of protestors just round the corner from this incident and this group being part of the effort to relieve those officers?

Perhaps I imagined it.

yep you imagined it, as there was around 12 of them, and the clip was showing them trying to revive the bloke they just killed

hainey - Member

First time i've looked at the video and i think he deserved it. Walking slowly in front of the police deliberately antagonising them. Can't see how it contributed to the heart-attack, just a very sad coincidence.

Just seen this thread but this is kind of my thoughts, too. It looks like he's playing the awkward sod. "I'm not doing anything I have a right to be here" etc, And he does have that right, but any sensible person would clear out the way of the police and not get in their way in the first place; its not as if he couldn't see them coming. I think the copper just saw him for being an awkward twonk and decided to push him out the way, albeit a bit harder than necessary. Fact he had a heart attack may or may not be related but could indeed be a sad coincidence. If he'd have had a heart attack in the middle of the protesters would they get this level of blame or would he have died protesting his cause?

richc - Member

yep you imagined it, as there was around 12 of them, and the clip was showing them trying to revive the bloke they just killed

No it had absolutely nothing to do with the fella and it was definitely 100% only 4 cops being chased and smacked about by a lot of protestors

Independent is claiming the filmed attack is the last of 3. [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/new-evidence-of-police-attacks-on-g20-victim-1666116.html ]Report here.[/url]

The Policeman is guilty as simple as that.

😯

Independent is claiming the filmed attack is the last of 3

same in the standard, although the standard also contains eyewitness reports and photos that an hour before he was walking deliberately slowly in front of a riot van, despite being told several times to move out of the way, until he had to be removed bodily by 2 officers.

The same report has him as mumbling and incoherent and (I quote) obviously drunk.

Desperately sad and still doesn't make the police actions right, but I am increasingly of the opinion he was not exactly 'just an innocent bystander' for the 90 mins or so over which this played out. Clearly didn't deserve what he got, perhaps he should have been arrested earlier for a minor public order offence. Who knows, he may then have died in police custody in the back of the van or the cells, he may have been saved. What would we be saying then?

perhaps he should have been arrested earlier for a minor public order offence. Who knows, he may then have died in police custody in the back of the van or the cells, he may have been saved. What would we be saying then?

If he'd have had a heart attack in the middle of the protesters would they get this level of blame or would he have died protesting his cause?

Why all the confusion? It's the difference between Mrs Miggins keeling over after winning 100 quid at the bingo, and her keeling over when someone mugs her in an alley as she walks home from the bingo. You can see that there's a difference between the two, right?

konabunny. That's too simplistic. It appears that the two are related but as yet it's not proved. It may be a horrific coincidence, but nothing more.

Still doesn't make the assault right but as yet doesn't make the assailant a killer.

More interesting comment from the Grauniad on to the way the police tried to manage the story [url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/09/g20-police-assault-ian-tomlinson-g20 ] here[/url]

Still doesn't make the assault right but as yet doesn't make the assailant a killer.

Thats the point, if he died because of assault (which is a crime) then yes it does.

As far as I know, the Police aren't allowed to dish out justice for perceived crimes, thats what the courts are for, or are you implying that the Police should be able to hand out on the spot justice for crimes?.

It ultimately doesn't matter if he was being awkward and walking slowly, he was attacked from behind when he was defenseless which is assault (even the Police commissioner admits this) and if his death was at all linked to this assault then, yes that makes that Police man his killer and should be charged with manslaughter.

It doesn't matter than he didn't mean to kill him, just like the other policeman convicted yesterday for running over that teenager didn't mean to hit her, the end result is someone died due to there *illegal* action which believe it or not is a crime.

Interestingly I once got hit by riot police with a batten and a shield when I told them that the person they had under arrest wasn't "struggling" he was fitting. I was told it was none of my business and when I suggested that his blue face suggested he'd be dead shortly I got hit and dragged away from the scene to a van, where I was promptly released by more professional coppers.

I have the utmost respect for the police and the work they do, working with them on a regular basis I can confirm that most of them are pretty sound, decent people. Unfortunately police tactics are often heavy handed, and once you get into an us vs them situation, people get aggresive.

I expect a lot of people got hit a bit harder than was nessercery that day. Some deserved it, some didn't. I know some police got hit too, and though some of that might have been retaliation, most of it was probably just people trying to look hard by throwing stuff at the police.

The focus of the investigation should be less about one officer doing what hundreds have done before him, and more about the whole tactics of teh operation.

The individual officer doesn't matter particuarly, much like the jean charled de menezes case, it doesn't matter who puled the trigger, what matters is why did it happen.

For the family of the man who died, nothing will bring him back, but if his untimely death can make actual changes to overly aggressive police tactics then at least something has come out of all this.

Interestingly, I wonder wether his family were in support of the protests?

"

The focus of the investigation should be less about one officer doing what hundreds have done before him, and more about the whole tactics of teh operation

perhaps it should, perhaps it may make the police think a bit more before lashing out which as a result may influence a change overall.....

I doubt it, and reading the newspaper articles it just seems they want to know the truth about why/how he died. Which doesn't seem unreasonable

However it seems that a large number of people have an awful lot to lose, so are making life difficult.

I'm sorry but he was quite deliberately being an awkward twunt, so he got pushed over. Big deal.The police were asking him to move along and he blatently wasn't and very blatently intent on antagonising them and making their jobs even harder than it was that day. The heart-attack would not have been attributed to the fall. If it was, then it was going to happen very soon anyway!!!

that is no reason to push someone over with his hands in his pockets. The poluice are menat to set an example. ****, I walk to work everyday and there is always a slow peron in front of me, there are always inconsiderate people with pushchairs standing chatting and blocking the pavement....can I just go and batter them. In a way I wish I could sometimes but I know it is wrong. The police should be able to rise above a little taunting (if there was in fact any from the victim himself).

No, if directed by the police to do something, you do it. If they ask you to pull over in your car do you ignore them? No. He was walking along like a spoilt kid, taunting them and testing there patience. Pushing him was well within their rights, a baton round the back of the legs is the usual manouvere.

Pushing him was well within their rights, a baton round the back of the legs is the usual manouvere.

Ummmm, no it isn't. Thats the point.

As with coffeeking's points yesterday, hainey is clearly correct, to the extent that he is simply saying "you **** with these animals at your peril". If he is saying that it is [i]right[/i] for masked and armed policemen to be playing skittles with people who annoy them then again, I'm not sure I can agree. 😐

Well, i'm sure all the criminals out there will be pleased to here that. Police training 101, if the criminal is un-responsive to your first request to do something, ask again a little more politely, if this doesn't succeed, then show him you're extremely dis-pleased. Under no circumstances can you place a finger on him, this includes restraining or handcuffing.

Get real.