[Closed] Further carnage on the high street. Is the Co-Op committing suicide?

Why aren't the government jumping in with offers of shed loads of tax payers money?

Why aren't the government jumping in with offers of shed loads of tax payers money?

[cynic] Tory govt, bank based oop north, not our problem! [/cynic]

What I don't understand is how expensive their shops and such rip offs (for their size). So if they did went, sad for the staff but the quality/food v their prices are offensive.

Why aren't the government jumping in with offers of shed loads of tax payers money?

When Woolies went, Woolies went.

Myners is proposing scrapping the current boardroom structure which currently comprises 15 representatives from the regions – including a farmer, a university lecturer and a nurse

Jesus wept. All business people with a nose for top-level decisions and changes.

It's desperately sad that a community owned organisation seems to be intent on destroying itself like this.

Somewhat ironically my local Co-op supermarket closed a month ago as it was 'too big' for their plans.

Today it re-opened as a Waitrose.

It seems absolutely bonkers. You've got Sainsburies, Tesco etc (who know a thing or two about the subject) saying that the future of retail is small local units rather than big out-of-town mega-shops.

And at the same time you've got an organisation perfectly placed to take full advantage of that situation that, somewhat unbelievably, posts an absolutely enormous loss.

The management must be complete muppets

The management must be complete muppets

Well they're totally unqualified and also have a conflict of interest as getting rid of the laymen directors would mean the laymen voting to lose their own jobs and generous salaries (for laymen).

Whole set up is completely out of date, but change will cost a load of unqualified idiots their jobs and sadly they're not agreeing to it.

binners - Member

How does an organisation get itself into this state?

This is because you have zombie maggots at the top running the organisation.

Oh ya ... I have just been made redundant today for one of my part-time job.

🙄

binners I was thinking- if Co-Op did go, the others would be allover their real-estate like crazy. The Co-Op near me for instance, the only competition is Tescos nearby. There is no one else. Apart from Sainsburys and Asda 2-3miles away. Crazy in a large City like Manchester.

Same again near the Sainsburys- Co-Op again. a dowdy, dull, overpriced, poor products/layout store.

Just up the road - remember the decent wine shop in Sale? Sainsburys approached the owner and made him an obscene offer to sell up. His shop was the same size as Co-Op branches. I remember talking to him and him saying 'hey business was great, I had no plans of selling up until this man called..'.

Co-Ops meat/pricing is worse than Tescos and thats saying something.

Our village got a new Co-Op about 18 months ago which I think was a good thing as the only food shop there before was horrible.
I'd be fairly happy if it was taken over by one of the big two.

Hora - If you go anywhere in East Lancs there are co-ops everywhere. Often the only shops in a place, with no competition. And it shows. I agree with you that they're generally appalling. We got to the point where we'd go further to the nearest Sainsburies, rather than the Co-op 100 yards away because the service there was so atrocious. They would have one till on, and a queue out of the door. While other staff wandered around aimlessly, chatting.

I would imagine Tesco's or one of the major supermarkets would snaffle the stores up. But then what happens to the offices etc. Past the northern quarter, pretty much all of that is the Co-op. There must be thousands employed there. If that all goes, thats going to have a cataclysmic impact

because the service there was so atrocious. They would have one till on, and a queue out of the door. While other staff wandered around aimlessly, chatting.

Yep - you've just described Gorse Hill Co-Op.

Co-Ops remind me of independents who have no competition and normally you'd only visit them after a heavy evenings drinking as you were hungry before bed.

How does an organisation get itself into this state?

Started a long time ago IMO.

After all, the board all voted for Flowers as the head banking dude.

I can't imagine they've been magically making a different quality of decision when it comes to the food division.

edit: shops were variable, seems to be no consistency or nobody is actually responsible for making sure they stick to corporate standards, or similar. My last 'local' coop was terrible - only ever went there if we ran out of milk or similar, but one before that had a good range of stuff and was quite smart, and we went there a lot.

The Co-Op in Hebden is utterly shite. For a reasonably large shop it often has little in stock that you actually wan and it generally takes forever to get served. I almost never go there.

They always make me think 'too much crammed into small shop' resulting in a bloody awful shopping experience.

A mate got a job at one of their distribution warehouses, it seemed to be plagued by management by spreadsheet and petty empire building between competing managers - and that this was the nature of the organisation throughout.

The Co-Op in Hebden is utterly shite. For a reasonably large shop it often has little in stock that you actually wan and it generally takes forever to get served. I almost never go there.

Imagine that as a Sainsburys or Waitrose? Not a problem as a Co-Op as its bland, not really worth worrying about as a competitor. Someone comes in with fresh, shiny looking fruit, produce, a better quality of meats etc. That'd be a worry.

ALL the local shops would be up in arms, marchin, protesting, hippies chaining themselves to the gates (unless its Giro day).

Saying all this- is their even a quality butcher in Hebden?

Co-Ops and mutual societies are not part of the great capitalist leap forward.

They give people ideas that the government would rather they didn't have.
So, just like Building Societies they will be allowed to die and replaced by companies purely interested in profit.

OTOH we have a NISA Local shop near us, which is usually a reasonable place to get groceries - they have some local produce alongside regular supermarket stock. And their fruit and veg usually looks in-date, which has got to beat most co-ops.

Maybe co-op should try and emulate them a bit more.

ninfan - from the experience of the Co-op near us, it seems the one plus point about the place was their obviously appalling stock control. You could pop in for milk, and often pick up, say, joints of beef, or really nice steaks, reduced to a couple of quid because they'd somehow found themselves with mountains of them. Ideal for filling the freezer. But then if you wanted anything to cook with them, you'd have to go somewhere else to get it

Local Co-Op to me (back on the coast) has been taken over by Waitrose. It's been a Co-Op for about 16years.

You can't quite beleive how happy I really am.

However I can almost hear the groans from the (mainly) Old Folk not being able to a) find anything b) pay a little more c) be overwhelmend by the choice now available.

Co-Ops and mutual societies are not part of the great capitalist leap forward.

They give people ideas that the government would rather they didn't have.
So, just like Building Societies they will be allowed to die and replaced by companies purely interested in profit..

So John Lewis and Waitrose which is a trust for the profit and benefit of all its employees....where does this struggling, terribly outdated business sit? 😉

Hora.
Do you do this deliberately?
Have you any idea of the history of the Co-Op movement?
And more to the point, have you never actually walked round Hebden?

Grum.
You knew the Co-Op was the only big shop when you moved there.
Hebden has a tradition of small independant shops.
Halifax is less than 15 minutes away.
What is it you need that you just can't live without for half an hour?

Tesco will be all over any vacated co-op premises. There are already 3 Tescos in Macclesfield, plus a Sainsbury's, a Morrisons, and at least 4 co-ops within a 1-mile radius.

Do you do this deliberately?

You are chewing gum for the eyes sometimes.

Halifax is less than 15 minutes away.

Ok - its a 14mile round trip to the nearest one. In the centre of Hebden is a wasted opportunity called -Co-Op. See?

Have you any idea of the history of the Co-Op movement

I do. See what it is/become? Different origins to John Lewis/Waitrose but then you misread my comment on the above post. John Lewis aren't run on capitalist etc leanings. Hence my comment/post on that. Don't take things out of context.

What's wrong with the Co-Op in Hebden?

If I've ever been there after a ride etc I'd rather go to Morrisons (or preferably) drive Huddersfield way.

The Co-Op in Hebden is utterly shite.

Agreed. I was in there half an hour ago to buy some lunch.

Came out empty handed. Crap selection compared to virtually every other competitor.

I'll stop at the garage on the way back home.

They own three of the biggest buildings in Manchester and one of the newest and most spectacular; recently they part-clad the tallest building in solar PV panels - I wonder how much that cost and how much it actually contributes to the running costs?

[img] [/img]

I live near one Co-OP that's recently be refurbed and it's pretty nice place to shop, albeit the layout is a bit odd and their self scanning machines are the worst on the high street and that's saying something. Rest of the co-ops by me are a disgrace, dark, unfriendly paces, with staff who simply don't care.

However, all that is an aside really as the main problem with Co-op as it stands, is it's structure. Way too many people who are going to keep blocking changes, and bog everything down till they go bust. You have to worry for a company that keeps putting it's results back, sounds like they've found a massive hole somewhere and are trying to work out why.

If the co-op goes then with respect to the Manc city center, I'd suggest pimping yourselves to so Arabs or your ****ed.

I'll stop at the garage on the way back home.

Nah, treat yourself and nip into OldGate for a brekkie, you've got 10 mins 😀

If the co-op goes then with respect to the Manc city center, I'd suggest pimping yourselves to so Arabs or your ****ed.

Why? Others would take over the stores and we have enough flats being built in the centre to home a million singletons 😆

They own three of the biggest buildings in Manchester

I'm not sure they do, One Angle Square was sold as part of sale and leaseback deal. I'd don't know if other buildings have been also.

Grum.
You knew the Co-Op was the only big shop when you moved there.
Hebden has a tradition of small independant shops.
Halifax is less than 15 minutes away.
What is it you need that you just can't live without for half an hour?

Say what now? I use the small independent shops and the market mostly which are great.

I'm not quite sure why you seem to be criticising me for not thinking the co-op is very good. 😕

Saying all this- is their even a quality butcher in Hebden?

Yes there's two, plus more on the market when it's on.

Imagine that as a Sainsburys or Waitrose? Not a problem as a Co-Op as its bland, not really worth worrying about as a competitor. Someone comes in with fresh, shiny looking fruit, produce, a better quality of meats etc. That'd be a worry.

ALL the local shops would be up in arms, marchin, protesting, hippies chaining themselves to the gates (unless its Giro day).

I'd rather it was just a co-op that didn't regularly have empty shelves and massive queues.

There are circa 2000 co-op stores in the UK, Tesco and Sainsburys are not looking to expand their estate in the next 5 years, Asda are but mainly in the south. Morrisons may pick some up for their new small format stores but if the co-op goes there will be a lot of empty shops across the country.

Its about the last place I would ever go to shop.

[i]On course to report a £2bn loss next week, the Co-op has been mired in turmoil since it emerged its bank had a £1.5bn hole in its balance sheet last May and its former chairman, the Reverend Paul Flowers, was embroiled in a scandal involving class A drugs.[/i]

script writers are paid to write far less compelling stories 🙂

There are two co-ops near me. There is only enough custom to justify one. The other of the stores is leased only to prevent Tesco from having it.

Apologies grum.

I read more into your post than you intended.
Once again, apologies.

Dont think its suicide, their just trying to not be like everyone else when everyone else is the same for a good reason.

Binners: they got into this bind by expanding into many different business areas, buying Somerfield and merging lots of regional co-ops into a larger organisation. In doing that they kept lots of hierarchies that seem outdated and slow to respond to the buzz words of fast moving retail environments.
They are a bit behind the big retailers on distribution but have the small shops in all the right places so you'd think they'd get there in the long term. Then they'll get hammered for not having an internet shopping option. 😕
You can see bits being broken off. The funeral business seems discrete and easily packaged off.
I don't see how Britannia, as a supposed mutual, managed to sink £1.5 billion into a commercial loans black hole, and that is just the loss, how much was the whole loan? Some poor due diligence when it got taken over by the Co-Op.

Dont think its suicide, their just trying to not be like everyone else when everyone else is the same for a good reason.

But if 'being different' is losing you £2 billion a year - and in this case 'different' seems to mean 'awful' - in a market where your competition is making vast amounts of profit, maybe being conventional might be a better idea. Seems to me like they've a management structure which is as easy to turn around as a supertanker

If the co-op goes then with respect to the Manc city center, I'd suggest pimping yourselves to so Arabs or your ****ed.

Binners.
When they were genuinely different, genuinely co-operative, they made money.

It's only since they started to modernise that they have failed.

RS - why don't they try to resurrect the original spirit of the movement, if that's the case? Go back to basics?

Because it just seems like headless chickens, who haven't a clue what to do, other than bury their heads in the sand, and hope for the best. Which can only possibly lead to bankruptcy. And the implications of a company like the Co-op folding really doesn't bare thinking about. The effect it would have on the already fragile economy of the North West would be absolutely cataclysmic.

The structure is the thing which will save it - there are a number of independent co-ops, which come together to make up the group, the individual co-ops will survive even if the group goes to the wall - it might look different afterwards, and it will mean that things like the bank wither on the vine, (because they are owned by the group not the co-ops themselves) and the areas where there is no independent cooperative will probably lose their stores, but the structure which makes it difficult if not impossible to change the structure is also the thing which will mean the co-op is here to stay.

The Co-op got in this mess because it listened to those at the Bank who said that they needed to be "more like other businesses"; their differences aren't the problem... it's where they try to be like other companies, and, obviously, not being nearly as capable in that form, fail.

Take TV advertising... they used to avoided wasting their member's money on an expensive advertising channel... then they tried to sell themselves ASDA/Tesco/Sainsburys style... but couldn't out spend, or out manoeuvre these market leaders. They also tried to rhyme "[b]food[/b]" with "[b]good[/b]". Embarrassing.

Maybe it's a regional thing with the quality of the stores.
I've started using our local Co-op more recently (down South).
The prices are competitive with Sainsbury and Waitrose (not to difficult I admit) and the stock levels are always good with a reasonable choice. The staff are good and efficient.
Mind, I go in early on a Saturday when it's normally only me and a couple of dozen old biddies, so I'm done and out before they've finished discussing their lumbago etc in the middle of the aisles.

The hubris of the well intentioned.

Fine moral and democratic structures are no guarantee of either moral or rational behaviour and certainly not of commercial good sense - in fact usually the opposite.

Neither though is the alternative of pure corporate business structuring a guarantee of some kind of commercial perfection . But at least it isn't trying to fool anyone.

binners - Member

the service there was so atrocious. They would have one till on, and a queue out of the door. While other staff wandered around aimlessly, chatting.

This why us Southerners earn more binners, we're not lazy like you Northern types.

😆

I'm just joshing, our local co-op is probably as bad as yours. 🙂
I only shop there as they will sometimes pay you to take food away, otherwise it's cheaper to shop in Waitrose.

there are a number of independent co-ops, which come together to make up the group, the individual co-ops will survive even if the group goes to the wall - it might look different afterwards,

Where/who will supply all their shelves? Like anyone they'll need product/stock within a day of supply from the 'Group' stopping all supply.

Like any business its cashflow that kills you- if the tills aren't ringing with continual flow of stock- what happens?

For the employees at head office etc I hope it doesn't go to the wall but then if the government is called to help out? No.

On a wider note if BOTH sides have billion-losses, exactly what have they been doing wrong on the retail side for it to get this bad?!!!

Woolies went down with £367m debt. Entertainment UK closed immediately who also supplied Virgin(?) and another chain of stores- they also closed asap because of lack of supply.

Things change. There used to be a factory in Worksop that produced glass bottles solely for Co-Op Dairies. Worksop kept producing when taken over by Rockware until the furnace life ran out. Dairy Farmers of Great Britain succeeded Co-Op Dairy for a while until it went bust, our milk is delivered by a smaller outfit now.
Huge and nationwide to tiny in the short time it has taken for most milk to come in plastic from the supermarket.

One thing I wont miss- Pick up a bottle of wine after seeing the promotion banner on the front of the shelf, scans in at the till- its twice the price. So you bring the ticket/tab over- show. No sorry luv its wrong.

Wrong or your EPOS system hasn't been updated for promotions?
Wrong or you've been lazy, too busy talking to go round with the price change sheers

Wrong or you've been too lazy to go round with a price scanner to recheck prices are correct currently?

This DOES happen in the big supermarkets- rare but when it does they apologise and scan it through.

In Co-Op (my experiences) they act like you are a vagrant swettily aiming for cheap booze.

One thing I wont miss- Pick up a bottle of wine after seeing the promotion banner on the front of the shelf, scans in at the till- its twice the price. So you bring the ticket/tab over- show. No sorry luv its wrong.

Dear god!! I do think every Co-Op must be the same then. That used to drive me mad at the one near us. The price on the shelf bore absolutely no resemblance to what you'd be charged when they scanned it. Wine seemed to be the worst for it. And it wouldn't be a quid difference. It would be literally double the price. Another reason we just ended up going to Sainsbury's instead

On a wider note if BOTH sides have billion-losses,

I understood it that the first £1.5bn was from the bank and the other £500m was from the other areas - retail, pharmacies, travel, agriculture, electrical, legal services and funerals - by comparison, Woolies was small, so it's hardly a comparison.

Maybe it was the tactic to get revenue up!

[s]Not so long ago I bought Broccoli shrink wrapped on offer at £1.40.

Even in Tescos its 75p loose at that size (I know I eat alot). Did they think shrink wrap and 'value' makes it a better product?

I know M&S are guilty of this- lots of packaging and then their 'Plan A as there is no Plan B' bollocks.[/s] Wildly off topic.

binners - Member

Dear god!! I do think every Co-Op must be the same then.

I always check my receipt before leaving the store, always.

It makes me quite sad as I liked the Co-Op.

My business account is with them but I fear I'll be tanking it elsewhere shortly.

Some of their new shops are nice but the one by us (now closed) was crap, we never went in. The fresh stuff was mostly rotten

It makes me quite sad as I liked the Co-Op.

My business account is with them but I fear I'll be tanking it elsewhere shortly.

Some of their new shops are nice but the one by us (now closed) was crap, we never went in. The fresh stuff was mostly rotten

The bank is near-as-dammit separately owned from the rest of the group. TBH the bank, in spite of its mess, is the success story of this debacle and will emerge intact IMO. Albeit no longer owned by the co-op "group".

I think the rest of the group can come out of the other side, but it's going to be an unpleasant process, and it will look quite different at the end of it.

And I agree that their supermarket business is pretty dire. But that's true of all the supermarkets bar one: Booths. (And possibly Waitrose on a good day.)

How does the Co-Op commit suicide?

Self-mutualation.

Ah, my coat!

The 'co-op' wont go pop, just Co-Op Group.

Many people aren't aware that the shops are actually all run by different co-operatives - just with the same co-op branding and product range.

Your local coop could be run by Southern Cooperative, Midcounties Cooperative, Midlands Cooperative, Cooperative Group or Scotmid cooperative - theres another scotish one but the name escapes me.

so when the media hark on about Cooperative Group there just one company making up part of the brand.

Too many clapped out Labour politicians are involved, it should drop its political affiliations and focus on serving its members as its one clear purpose.

PS If you short the shares of companies moving into fancy new hq buildings you will make money considerably more often than not.

Not defending his actions but Paul Flowers was chairman of the public board for the bank, a position open for any of the coop's members could apply for.
essentially if you have a members card (like a nectar card or tesco club card) you could have applied for the job.

in reality he didnt actually have any power over the bank - more of a liason between the bank and coop members - another thing that the media failed to mention.

36p for a lemon!

At least co-op stores don't stink of gone-off milk like they used to.

It seems absolutely bonkers. You've got Sainsburies, Tesco etc (who know a thing or two about the subject) saying that the future of retail is small local units rather than big out-of-town mega-shops.

Well thats probably very much part of the problem for Co-op's stores, its not to their advantage that big chains have realised that, its to their detriment- its their market that tesco, sainsburies, and more lately morrisons are now fighting over.

Although the competition is getting harder, coop stores have an advantage of an already well established network of stores - if you look at some of the stores that tesco, sainsburys etc are taking, they're far from ideal - old pubs, churches etc.

On the other hand, Smile bank has be great for us for 15 years....

I bank with the co-op,should I change?