[Closed] Forum House of Commons vote on air strikes in Syria - which way will you vote?

[quote=ctk ]And Hilary Benn if he believes what he says then he should[s] follow it through and[/s] get [s]our soldier[/s]s involved on the ground. He did really seem to mean what he said didn't he?FTFY

ctk - Member

And Hilary Benn if he believes what he says

Do you mean when he said we definitely have to bomb Syria, or when he said we definitely shouldn't?

You've got to hand it to him, he does personify the modern labour party, having profound and unreconcilable divisions with himself. Makes him the ideal leader.

French Government advice published today on responding to terrorist incidents, posters will be sent to businesss. Very sadly a sign of the times.

[img] [/img]

@grum the war in Syria is entirely the result of the "Arab spring" which turned into a full scale civil war with external influenece from those who wished to see Assad toppled. Really it has pretty much nothing to do with oil or gas.

@grum the war in Syria is [b]entirely the result [/b]of the "Arab spring" which turned into a full scale civil war with external influenece from those who wished to see Assad toppled.

@ctk, a few thoughts

Jesus * Christ! Terrorist sympathisers! You boil my piss!

So its OK to sell weapons to Saudi Arabia known for stoning people to death or beheading them. Women aren't allowed to drive

Israel use terror constantly aswell as popping people off around the globe

FFFS

For * **** sake

You have no moral compass.

Last year we sold $4bn of weapons to the Saudis, the French sold $12bn. Please take up your point with Monsieur Hollande. Let me know how you get on.

Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and what happened, the population elected an extreme Islamist government with a written constitution to destroy Israel by armed Jihad. The Israelis are used to dealing with such extremists, we are having to learn those very harsh lessons. Lessons which dont sit well with our liberal democracies.

Moral compass ? Always a very personal and subjective judgement. Withoit coalition intervention in Iraq IS would have murdered 10's if nit 100's of thousands of Yazidis. Ask the French whether they think its morally justified to launch airstrikes in Syria and to require EU nations to assist militarily under the EU treaties.

causes of the war: sustained drought, migration to the cities to look for work, an inflexible state-run economy, the strain of a million Iraqi refugees.

The claim is that the arab spring was the cover and that foreign countries[ and this is not disputed BTW] were funding and training the "opposition" to Assad and were agent provocateurs
Its not like its unheard of the west getting rid of unfriendly govts and maintain friendly ones irrespective of trifling concerns about legitimacy, democracy or human rights

Interesting read and requires a deeper analysis than you have given it though I dont know if it is true or not

Withoit coalition intervention in Iraq IS would have murdered 10's if nit 100's of thousands of Yazidis.

You could always argue that without the coalition intervention in the first place, there wouldn't be a problem to begin with. There were pretty clear warnings about what would happen in Iraq. It would collapse into sectarian violence. Which it did. Ultimately leading to the formation of ISIS

Hurray for coalition intervention eh?

OK so no-one can be bothered to read the link but how about this nice diagram?

[img] [/img]

Apologies if it has been done before.

That oil drum in the top corner is clearly related to.....

[img] /revision/latest?cb=20111104010226[/img]

so no-one can be bothered to read the link

I did read it honest. I never comment on links unless i have read them as anything else is stupid.

I think I need a killfile for jambalaya..

His posts are starting to make me really really sad.. What a nutter

I find Jammers posts quite interesting. In the same way as reading a Peter Hitchens article is interesting.

jambalaya

Last year we sold $4bn of weapons to the Saudis, the French sold $12bn. Please take up your point with Monsieur Hollande. Let me know how you get on.

Hang on there a minute. Just because France are as complicit, or more so in arming the regime that funds ISIS it doesn't exonerate Cameron. In addition to farming out radical Islam to every mosque in the world that'll let them and killing their own citizens for crimes such as atheism and adultery the Saudis are using these weapons to slaughter civilians in Yemen.

Its not like its unheard of the west getting rid of unfriendly govts and maintain friendly ones

True, although in more recent years the west has chosen to get rid (relatively) friendly Governments and replace them with Islamic extremists who hate us.

You could always argue that without the coalition intervention in the first place, there wouldn't be a problem to begin with. There were pretty clear warnings about what would happen in Iraq. It would collapse into sectarian violence. Which it did. Ultimately leading to the formation of ISIS

This. It's not even debatable, just fact.

jimjam - Member

In addition to farming out radical Islam to every mosque in the world that'll let them and killing their own citizens for crimes such as atheism and adultery the Saudis are using these weapons to slaughter civilians in Yemen.

Nuh uh- we sold them Brimstone missiles, they only kill baddies

True, although in more recent years the west has chosen to get rid (relatively) friendly Governments and replace them with Islamic extremists who hate us.

i never said we were any good at it 😉

CHrist you have to laugh as that is depressing news we are just making enemies everywhere

I read it ...go on test me
I did read it honest. I never comment on links unless i have read them as anything else is stupid.

Just interested to know what people thought of it as an explanation for the conflict. It seems fairly plausible to me and I'ld be very surprised if 'resource security' wasn't a fairly major part of all this - just hard to know exactly what to believe.

The Wesley Clark video is also pretty amazing in some ways - though also no surprising.

Northwind

Nuh uh- we sold them Brimstone missiles, they only kill baddies

I'm pretty sure they killed 100+ civilians last month, 56 of them children using bombs Dave sold them. I mean, I'm no expert in geopolitics or wordplay, so I guess there's some sort of profound difference when an extreme Islamist government slaughters children and that of an extreme Islamist group slaughtering children.

If killing children with missiles was terrorism I guess that would make Dave not only a sympathiser but a profiteer of terrorism, but I guess it's not, so he couldn't possibly be.

perhaps you should spend time elsewhere ?

Perhaps we should have a vote on who we want to leave

Who do you think would garner the most votes ?

Its not really that surprising that a number of folk consider your posts to lack empathy and logical coherence

Still at least you stayed consistent and blamed them for reacting

Moral compass ? Always a very personal and subjective judgement

Not really some stuff is bad and that is it. We dont look at who is doing it before deciding what is bad . Have a look at Israel assassinations abroad and condemn it as you would if Syria, Palestine, or Iraq did.

Agreed Grum it is certainly plausible and we certainly do go to war re resources and we certainly dont go to war just because the country is a bit mean to its citizens.

yunki - Member

I think I need a killfile for jambalaya..

His posts are starting to make me really really sad.. What a nutter

You might be dismissive of jambalaya but his views and opinions are [i]very much[/i] in line with the views and opinions of those who decide our defence policy, education policy, health policy, taxation, international relations, etc, ie the government.

You are going to have to think of a better description than simply "nutter" imo.

And if you're not happy with government policies something more effective than a killfile.

You are going to have to think of a better description than simply "nutter" imo.

"Voter"? 😉

jambalaya - Member
...on a bike forum populated primarily by citizens of one of the [b]most Liberal democracies[/b] in the world...

You're being ironic I hope.

We've got nothing on this bunch of [url= http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/islamic-state-child-soldiers-play-6949570 ]lefties[/url]

@yunki I would hope you'd see things differently if we met for a beer, assuming you'd agree to such a thing someday. As you can see I'm not one to try and sugar coat things, sometimes reality is harsher than many are prepared to admit.

@epic, I am certain you are trying to make a point but actually I agree with you totally on this security issue in terms of my views and government policy.

Yes absolutely we live in one of the most Liberal and open democracies in the world, top 3, top 5 ?

I've been in Pairs this week and there has not been a single comment / written word I've seen anywhere about civilian casualties. I may have missed them of course. France is imo the most left wing of any European nation and yet has upped the anti to "war" status against IS and in terms of domestic polciy and police powers. Do we really need an attack here in the UK which sees 400 people shot and 130 dead before we fully appreciate what we are dealing with.

The BBC reported on the latest Daesh video today, kids playing hide and seek, except once found those people where executed by the kids. 5 shot and the last one beheaded. I watched the video. Even more gruesome than the executions by kids at the Palmare site released a few months ago. I believe the rationale given for the executions where that they where spies for Israel.

These people are monsters, left unchallenged they will grow stronger and they will continue to murder people everyday. They wil continue to train and rescource people to travel to the West to kill us. One of fhe Paris terrorists is known tomhave travelled to Birmingham and London and met known uk terrorist suspects

Why do the hawks always accuse the anti-bombers of wanting to do nothing? When we've repeatedly said that's not what we want.

It's very poor rhetoric, when we really need intelligent debate.

The question isn't to bomb or to appease; it's "what is the best way to stop ISIS?"

I am saying bombing isn't the best way to fix the situation. If it were, I'd support it.

Do we really need an attack here in the UK which sees 400 people shot and 130 dead before we fully appreciate what we are dealing with.

Please try to put your case a little less with appeals to emotions and a bit more cogent/explanation about how bombing them will work out well for us. Feel free to use the recent Western excursions in the middle east field to illustrate your answer.

I assume hilary benns speech was a little like that Said things we all agreed with but never really tried to explain how or why bombs would make it all better.

Why do the hawks always accuse the anti-bombers of wanting to do nothing? When we've repeatedly said that's not what we want.

The anti-bombers do the same by claiming that the hawks want to *only* bomb and not carry out any of the raft of other options in addition to bombing.

Both are straw-man arguments and very frustrating.

Both are straw-man arguments and very frustrating.

I perused an argument between Danny Finkelstein, Philip Collins and Medhi Hassan on Twitter today which went along similar lines - these are all guys of some ability - and they end up in the same place.

How long have intelligence services been supporting 'moderate' Syrian Rebels?

[img] ?oh=e91c400bfb8c5b4884ee3bdd5a16faad&oe=56E2137E[/img]

Was there ever a highly publicized parliamentary debate on the matter?

About that jet that violated your airspace.....

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/12/iraq-demands-withdrawal-turkish-troops-mosul-151205061510572.html

Police treat stabbing on Tube as terrorist attack

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/dec/05/suspect-custody-after-stabbing-leytonstone-london-underground-station ]Guardian Link[/url]

The BBC reported on the latest Daesh video today, kids playing hide and seek, except once found those people where executed by the kids. 5 shot and the last one beheaded. I watched the video.

He's a bleedin terrorist his self int he..

Poisoning our hearts and minds with hate, terror, lies and propaganda..
He needs a knock on the door from special branch I reckon

piemonster - Member
About that jet that violated your airspace.....

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/12/iraq-demands-withdrawal-turkish-troops-mosul-151205061510572.html

I think they have been there supporting semi autonomous Kurdish pechmergfr forces for over a year. The lot complaining are the Iran backed Baghdad government, Iran/Turkey are the big players locally looking to come out this with the Syrian oil.

Do you spend a lot of time searching out and watching terrorist propaganda?

It's a bit of a worry isn't it?

Presumably as jambalaya says the BBC "reported" the video, however he claims to have seen it which I believe might be a criminal offence, certainly if you search for ISIS propaganda it is likely to attract the attention of the security services, as yunki suggests.

Besides of course the moral implications :

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/04/isis-videos-complict-terrorism-death-hostage-killers ]If you watch Isis’s videos you are complicit in its terrorism[/url]

[i]"Some internet users clearly find the unrelenting goriness of it all captivating – stonings, decapitations, throwing people off tall buildings, sticking severed heads on spikes. Perhaps there’s a compulsion to see just how far Isis will go. But the very act of choosing to witness these things makes us, in some way, complicit".[/i]

As the article says, drawing people's attention to them helps the terrorists achieve their traffic targets.

The lot complaining are the Iran backed Baghdad government

That'll be the same Baghdad government which is fully backed by the US, the UK, and France.

@yunki I prefer to source news amd information from a broad variety of sources amd the intenret is fabulous for that, then I can make up my own mind. Mainstream news services here are consumed by political correctness, not least in the BBC decided that the name Daesh is not "fair" to use for IS. As an aisde Im in favour of full security monitoring of web/mobile etc and am perfectly happy for gchq to be aware I watched the video on heavy.com

Tristian Hunt on Stop the War Coaliion

[i]We have also seen some pretty ugly comments from them about Hilary Benn and the fact that Hilary Benn should be sacked. And also their comments about Islamic State and about how the French almost had it coming to them. They are a really disreputable organisation. I would hope Jeremy would step back and not go to their fundraiser.”[/i]

Tristian Hunt on Stop the War Coaliion

Gosh, a blairite bomber is critical of Stop the War Coalition ..... whatever next?

Go on ...... shock and amaze me by posting David Cameron's opinions of Stop the War Coalition.

UK, US may have put that goverment in but there now just an extension of Tehran.

UK, US may have put that goverment in but there now just an extension of Tehran.

This.

All Shias. 2/3 of Iraq is a defacto province of Iran thanks to the UK/US getting rid of Saddam.

It would appear that the beheady, beardy ones have now simply upped sticks and moved to Libya.

When do we start bombing then?

he BBC decided that the name Daesh is not "fair" to use for IS

I much prefer our brave leaders impartial description for them "This evil death cult " IMHO only terrorist sympathisers dont use this term oh and commies but lets be honest who can tell them apart....remember that Mandela fella he was both.

It would appear that the beheady, beardy ones have now simply upped sticks and moved to Libya.