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We do have some knowledge and communication with troops on the ground because US & UK forces have been on the ground also. Plus there are various westerners fighting against ISIS also.
Coalition seems to HOPE that ISIS can be bombed into a weak position and then apparently good guys will step in to finish them off and fill the void.
This does seem to be the "plan". Ignoring the fact of course that this (at it's heart) a sectarian war, and it will be a scramble for power if ISIS has been removed from the stage, let's hope they've all seen the PM's power point.
I note that we've come to the tacit conclusion with the Russians that Assad will stay (as ISIS has largely replaced Assad as "the enemy", this is now the story that'll be spun)
DD post still says right wing nutjobs as its still there so I am not sure why you would want to call anyone a liar
Junkyard you are correct, my apologies DD I am indeed wrong.
Can't help but wonder if Cameron's "70000" will be his "WMD".
in SO many ways... 😆I am indeed wrong.
The problem is if we say we will be working with a force of 70 thousand ready to tackle IS while we providing air support.
Once IS have been iradicated we have two choices, say thank you before leaving them high and dry at the mercy of the Russians and Assad or help them take on Assad and the Russians.
We need to ether enter into negation with all involved to resolve the civil war in Syria while fighting Isis, or not have anything to do with the 70 thousand and say the civil war is none of our business and we are just here for Isis.
Wowsers...
Is this true? Stay classy Dave, you stay classy.Explains some of the STW right wing nutjobs' opinions here though.
@dd stay classy ... STW nutjobs
Can't help but wonder if Cameron's "70000" will be his "WMD".
Can't see the Tories committing Harim-Kari and spending decades in opposition as a result. Counting the peshmerga I think you can get to that number, plus Russians and Iranians and Assads forces etc ....
As for Salmonds contribution we are firstly standing by our allies and secondly the quality of our forces mean we add more than an incremental 1/11th to the campaign. Part of me wishes the French, assuming the strikes are authorised tomorrow, would point out that Britian voted to assist but the Scots voted very heavily against - so please bear that in mind when buying Whisky for Christmas and your holiday plans for 2016
Can't help but wonder if Cameron's "70000" will be his "WMD".Can't see the Tories committing Harim-Kari and spending decades in opposition as a result.
Was that the result of Blair's claim of "WMDs" then?
You really don't think before you type do you?
Counting the peshmerga I think you can get to that number, plus Russians and Iranians and Assads forces etc ....
The Kurds won't be allies with Assad against ISIS
jamba..."right wing" nutjobs*. Do keep up. I realise basic comprehension is difficult for you as you endlessly demonstrate, sometimes three or four times in one page of a thread.
*see also, swivel eyed apologists for child-killing armies.
Assad must stay. Simple.
Stick your (generally speaking but could be you I am referring to) shite stirring nose out of trying to depose Assad.
See, the whole affair started with you (West whoever fueling the situation) adding fuel to fire by applying your softly softly encouraging approach (you know their population cannot handle "freedom") to get rid of Assad ... Ya, know what ... doing so you are actually killing the Syrians by encouraging them to topple Assad.
Even Assad would not kill (his own) people en-mass like the current in-fighting if not for the encouragement from the west.
Ya, as the Syrian shout out frreeddoommm! What they really mean are ... Freedom to beg the west. Freedom to burden others. Freedom with no dignity. Freedom not to die in their own land where they once lived.
All due to the ideal concept of freeddoom imposed on them by the West.
Why are you so eager to feed the world?
Now you feed them ...
Part of me wishes the French, assuming the strikes are authorised tomorrow, would point out that Britian voted to assist but the Scots voted very heavily against - so please bear that in mind when buying Whisky for Christmas and your holiday plans for 2016
The French own most of the whisky industry so it's unlikely
The Kurds won't be allies with Assad against [s]ISIS[/s] DAESH
You don't need this
If you can tacitly agree to the Kurds holding territory that may lead to a split of Syria then they will be the northern bulwark against Daesh. Getting Assad and the Turks to agree to this is the conundrum
Syria must be split into parts otherwise there will be no end.
Assad with his territory.
Assad opponents (own Syrian people) with their territory.
The Kurds must have their own territory (with S-200 station there).
Once they have agreed on that then they can go after whoever that are not supposed to be there.
How is any of that classy of you @dd ?
@ernie, that's the most significant outcome IMO. The rest of the stuff around investigations / legality etc is a waste of time IMHO, Blair used advice he received and in any case the relevance of that to the decision to invade is minimal as far as I am concerned. Far too many MPs are trying to cover their arses with the line "I relied on the wmd statement when I voted". I never believed the 45 mins or wmd claims so discovering they weren't true was hardly a revelation.
@chew I don't disagree but the Kurdish bit is going to go down like a lead balloon with Turkey and Iraq. Turkey as they are afraid of a Kurdish breakaway in current Turkey and much of the Iraqi oil is in Kurdish territory.
so please bear that in mind when buying Whisky for Christmas and your holiday plans for 2016
I have to say I pissed up laughing at that
you must be the only person on the planet to have urged economic sanctions against folk for not bombing folks as most folk tend to do sanctions against the war mongers.
It is an interesting moral code by which you operate and at least its consistent with your opposition to sanctions against Israel who do of course kill people at home and abroad. Perhap scotland should do some International assassinations so they can be viewed more positively by yourself?
Sanctions for opposing war.....brilliant.
I think Tony may well be calling you as part of his legal team for the its just sour grapes everyone knew i was lying defence
600 civilian casualties from western bombing so far. (According to chap on radio 4 The World Tonight) But our govts will only admit to 6! Michael Fallon said none at all on Marr show at the weekend
JY French wine industry suffered significantly post Iraq due to US public boycotts. Petty politics from the SNP who would be whining the loudest if there was an attack in Glasgow. They're making a protest vote just like Corbyn used to. If the majority is as suggested at 100-120 they are going to be very much in the minatory view. However it plays to their only,policy objective, another referendum - "we voted against the Tories but Scotland voice was ignored."
@ctk it's tragic but 600 (if true) out of 200,000. Civilians have been getting slaughtered there for 4 years now. Trying to judge the success or not if military action based on the numbers of civilian casualties makes no sense,
which your lets sanction them and respectful explanation cunningly avoided GO JAMBY GO you avoided that trap you spotted.However it plays to their only,policy objective, another referendum - "we voted against the Tories but Scotland voice was ignored."
Facepalm
600 dead is very sad.
Over 2500 have drowned in the med this year and 350000 made it across.
How many of these are Syrian and or drowned fleeing Isis I don't know.
But if we don't take on Isis the death toll will be much higher.
Jambalaya. Even I don't think that SNP argument is one for today. Rather than Scotland not being represented, I reckon labour supporters and party views are not being listened to by MP's wishing to turn one over on their leader.
Germany and China are not currently bombing Syria. Should their exports suffer also?
Glasgow has also suffered a terrorist attack, luckily not damaging.
Bear in mind that Diageo and Ricard Pernod UK are both based in London, as are most UK offices of the distillery owners. This however should be of petty concern. I don't normally go for the heart wrenching video, but saw one tonight reportedly showing the devastation and aftermath of bomb dropping in Syria. Civilians amongst rubble and bodies saying they didn't blow up a Russian plane.
The problem is, we went into Iraq without much of a clue what would happen after Saddam. ISIS was was no more than a twinkle in Bush and Blairs eyes. Saddam was somewhat predictable compared to ISIS.. We have even less of a clue what what comes after ISIS. We could get rid of ISIS, but something will replace it possibly even worse.
I am not a pacifist, but the plan with no credible coordinated troops and opposition should be a non starter, as much as Cameron can wish 70,000 troops from thin air.
Ah yes. The old 'let's bomb the Syrian homeland in order to reduce the numbers of refugees fleeing the Syrian homeland' argument. Completely sound, I see no holes in that one at all... Because what Syria needs is more white hot shrapnel flying through the air.
I reckon labour supporters and party views are not being listened to by MP's wishing to turn one over on their leader.
Surely an MP's job, once elected, is to represent [i]all[/i] their constituents, not just their supporters or party interests (and even then there are arguments about whether party interests are better served in the long term by following the policy of their elected leader rather than the consensus of shadow cabinet members or the wider electorate)
jambalaya - Member
@chew I don't disagree but the Kurdish bit is going to go down like a lead balloon with Turkey and Iraq. Turkey as they are afraid of a Kurdish breakaway in current Turkey and much of the Iraqi oil is in Kurdish territory.
I bet the Turks have been eyeing that piece of liquid nectar for sometime now and they almost got it right until they shot down a MiG-24. 😆 Now they have to play with S-200.
Iraq needs to relinquish some land too if they want to be stabilised.
Both cannot go on killing the Kurdish people.
And stopping the bombing will stop them fleeing?
[url= http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/607782/Islamic-State-ISIS-economy-caliphate-Syrian-refugees-Europe ]refugees fleeing isis[/url]
Defeating Isis and helping establish some stability may.
Surely an MP's job, once elected, is to represent all their constituents, not just their supporters or party interests
Sound, so CMD can represent the 60-odd% of us that didn't vote for him and **** off?
[/b]We do have some knowledge and communication with troops on the ground because US & UK forces have been on the ground also. [b]Plus there are various westerners fighting against ISIS also.
Jesus, so we are expected to rely on a bunch of loners and oddballs who can't even speak Arabic (or Kurdish) and who run around getting in arguments with other foreign weirdos?
Defeating Isis and helping establish some stability may.
Defeating 'ISIS' (or whatever it's being called this week) [i]could[/i] conceivably be possibly militarily (bough it'll take a damn sight more than a few tornadoes and fancy showcase bombs, for sure). Defeating the ideology that spawned ISIS is not going to happen through bombing, and in fact will most probably be catalysed by such actions. As has been said many, many times by people on this thread more eloquent than I.
You can't defeat a martyrdom ideology by creating more martyrs.
seems like theres a lot of jihadi sympathisers in the country
[img] 
[/img]
[url=
Benn[/url]
[url= http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2015/12/01/im-going-to-****-syria-like-its-a-pigs-head-says-cameron/ ]David Cameron[/url]
Klunk - Member
seems like theres a lot of jihadi sympathisers in the country
Yeah but that's just hysterical left wing reporting from a bunch of pacifist yoghurt knitters who don't understand the capabilities of the Sceptre2000 missile system.
Without a full-scale good old fashioned invasion - boots on the ground in massive strength and supporting armour - with naval back up and air cover, Daesh will not be wiped off the face of the planet as they should be.
So I'd vote against.
These 70,000 'moderate troops' ready to join our noble cause are, just... like..... soooooooo this years '45 minutes to launch WMD's at the the West'.
They only exist in Dave's head
Is there anyone (Dave and Jammers excepted) who actually believes that shit?
If this wasn't so serious it'd be absolutely laughable to try and wheel that out as some kind of justification, while keeping a straight face
In reality it'll amount to 12 people who are ever so fractionally less psychotic than the beheady ones, but still hate us anyway
I believe that there are 70,000 (or so) blokes with guns, if that's any help? Dunno how 'moderate' or even 'friendly' they are though. Maybe Dave needs to send them a link to a surveymonkey. They seem a popular way to prove things at work at the moment. (We even had a survey to ask why we didn't bother filling in the last survey, but I digress).
"Yes ... we're definitely on your side. Could you just leave the massive pile of weapons and ammo there please...
No, no, no... I can categorically assure you that they definitely won't end up being used against you. Honest!
.... and if you'd be so kind as to launch your air strikes over on that hill over there. Yes, yes ... they're definitely the bad guys. Thanks "
jimjam I'll see you and raise you
[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/labour-mps-allowed-to-vote-with-consciences-they-abandoned-long-ago-20151201104362 ]Daily Mash[/url]
My 11 year old daughter came into the lounge this morning whilst i was watching the news and saw the headline on the tv that said "Vote on airstrikes",
"Are you going to vote dad?" she asked me, I explained that it was only our elected representatives that got to vote in parliament,
"Oh no, they always make the wrong decision" was her response.
Wisdom beyond her years.
"Yes ... we're definitely on your side. Could you just leave the massive pile of weapons and ammo there please...No, no, no... I can categorically assure you that they definitely won't end up being used against you. Honest!
.... and if you'd be so kind as to launch your air strikes over on that hill over there. Yes, yes ... they're definitely the bad guys. Thanks "
And on the other side...
"Abdul! Those Stingers from the Afghan conflict! I think it's time to dig them out."
Seems like Cameron is really rattled judging from his ridiculous 'terrorist sympathisers' outburst. Never in my life have I heard such inflammatory and ill-judged language from a sitting PM. The tragedy is that he'll still win due to a group of labour MPs who have either taken leave of their senses or are using the issue to damage Corbyn.
"Yes ... we're definitely on your side. Could you just leave the massive pile of weapons and ammo there please...
No, no, no... I can categorically assure you that they definitely won't end up being used against you. Honest!
.... and if you'd be so kind as to launch your air strikes over on that hill over there. Yes, yes ... they're definitely the bad guys. Thanks "
"Oh, what will we do with this stuff when we've liberated ourselves from Assad? I imagine either we'll hand it in to the local police station or we'll just melt it all down ourselves...no, no, there's definitely no chance this stuff will be moved across our notoriously porous borders and into our unstable neighbours, why would you think that?"
By the sounds of it Dave's 'terrorist sympathisers' is going to come back and haunt him about every 2 minutes along with a demand for an apology.
I might get some t shirts printed. 😀
[quote=binners spake unto the masses, saying]These 70,000 'moderate troops' ready to join our noble cause are, just... like..... soooooooo this years '45 minutes to launch WMD's at the the West'.
They only exist in Dave's head
Is there anyone (Dave and Jammers excepted) who actually believes that shit?
I guess it's the same bunch that the US had to admit didn't exist despite their attempts to give them guns and money.
You know in the 3rd Lord of the Rings film? Where the baddies (you can tell they're baddies because they look like baddies) are going to overrun the goodies (you can tell they're goodies because they're all really really white) and all hope is lost, and nothing can possibly make their plan work... til Viggo Mortenson suddenly remembers he's got a spare army of magic soldiers that he keeps in his pocket, that nobody ever mentioned before, and they kill all the baddies like it ain't no thang? That's the inspiration for Cameron's 70,000.
It's not the best basis for foreign policy ever but hey, they can just get around any awkward questions by sitting in silence and ignoring them completely, like the deputy chief of the defence staff did in the foreign affairs select committee.