On one hand they are completely correct - was it 4 times he spun at Silverstone? On the other, none of those mistakes broke the rules. Still an odd case, but I can see some money heading his way at the end of it
I think Massa is being poorly advised, I mean its should be fairly obvious that the FIA aren't going to overturn a 17 year old result and that Hamilton was also affected by the same incident.
I still think we should give Massa 2008 and Hamilton 2021.
Trouble is then Hill should have 94, Prost and Senna should swap 89 and 90 and where do you stop?
Was there cheating involved in 82 and 86? Both a wee bit before my time but I don't remember hearing about it.
Better chance of overturning a WDC than fixing FIA corruption, and oh how nice to see the Eccleston name involved here too: FIA sued by presidential candidate over undemocratic election
I think Massa is being poorly advised, I mean its should be fairly obvious that the FIA aren't going to overturn a 17 year old result and that Hamilton was also affected by the same incident.
as I understand it, he's not trying to get the result overturned, he's just trying to get some money
Was there cheating involved in 82 and 86?
Nah but both are injustices - pironi was cruising to the title when he had a terrible crash and missed most of the second half of the season, and Rosberg just about managed to win the WDC. In 86 if Mansell had failed to control the car after the tyre exploded the race would most likely have been red flagged, half points awarded and Mansell WDC so by saving the car he lost the title.
Edit - iirc in 82 Enzo Ferrari gave Pironi a trophy inscribed "to the real world champion".
as I understand it, he's not trying to get the result overturned, he's just trying to get some money
It's got to be about the title - win this, then go for that - there's no way Massa is ferreting down the back of the sofa for his last Real.
Massa’s case hangs on the notion that the FIA would have nullified everyone’s results from the race. But was that necessarily what would have happened? I don’t know what the rule book said at the time, but in theory there are multiple options:
1. Delete everyone’s points for Singapore: Massa wins by 5 points.
2. Delete the points for the Renault cars, for either the race or the full season (which is consistent with the response to Schumacher’s deliberate crash in 97): Hamilton wins by 1 point.
3. As above but reclassify Singapore: Hamilton wins by 3 points.
4. As above but reclassify every race for the season: Hamilton wins by 3 points, if my quick skim through the 2008 results is accurate (Massa would gain 1 point in Italy, Hamilton would gain 1 in each of Italy, Hungary and Brazil).
as I understand it, he's not trying to get the result overturned, he's just trying to get some money
It's got to be about the title - win this, then go for that - there's no way Massa is ferreting down the back of the sofa for his last Real.
yeah you're right....just done more reading and he does want the title
"“This is the most important thing for me, this is our target, this is my target that I will fight until the end to be recognised as World Champion for 2008."
I thought I read something last week that said he just wants a sackful of cash
Whatever....i don't think he stands a chance
I don’t know what the rule book said at the time, but in theory there are multiple options:
None of the the options take into account that if Singapore was cancelled at the time the teams would have taken a different approach to the remaining races that season.
Can England go back and insist the 1986 World Cup be replayed? We coulda been winners again! 🙂
The Mexican federation blames Lawson for the near miss with marshals during the race:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/N5YuBNuXdWg
And the original document:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1rudGdTej7lXlh1ZpJ_9EGQGKnxvA7Tar
Was there cheating involved in 82 and 86?Nah but both are injustices - pironi was cruising to the title when he had a terrible crash and missed most of the second half of the season, and Rosberg just about managed to win the WDC. In 86 if Mansell had failed to control the car after the tyre exploded the race would most likely have been red flagged, half points awarded and Mansell WDC so by saving the car he lost the title.
Edit - iirc in 82 Enzo Ferrari gave Pironi a trophy inscribed "to the real world champion".
To be fair, Pironi was circulating at racing speed on a soaking wet track with zero visibility in a meaningless practice session - he didn't need to be out there, but he chose to be and paid the price, that's not an injustice.
Mansell didn't really "save" the car, he drove it off the track and killed the engine. Prost knew the tyres were an issue - if he stops, Williams should have paid attention. Mansell only needed third, they didn't have to take a single risk to bring him home.
The Mexican federation blames Lawson for the near miss with marshals during the race
That's one of the stupidest things I ever heard.
None of the the options take into account that if Singapore was cancelled at the time the teams would have taken a different approach to the remaining races that season.
Oh, agreed, it’s just that Massa’s case falls at the first hurdle if it’s not guaranteed that the course of action would have been to delete everyone’s points from that event. And given precedent, I don’t think that sounds like the likely course of action. Maybe it is. Presumably Massa knows something I don’t because let’s face it, the fact that Bernie mentioned it in an interview means nothing on its own: Bernie says what Bernie wants to say and nothing more, and it’s fifteen years after the fact.
The whole thing is just an act of desperation. Everyone had to deal with the same circumstances for the whole year, and who dealt with them better? Not Massa. If he wants the championship he should travel back in time and drive better at Singapore, otherwise shit has happened.
Pretty ballsy of them to include Abu Dhabi 2021 on that list
I confess I haven’t seen the detail of what was going on around Sainz’s car; it sounded from the highlights that it was just parked behind a barrier and safe being left until the race finished, but if that wasn’t the case then fair enough.
Tye photo I saw showed half of his front wheel behind the barrier and nothing more, with the engine smoking.
There was a VSC in Imola? when Antonelli parked up, so seems to be standard procedure. But as usual, people not understanding rules, and again not having any responsibility if things go wrong, will always blame the FIA. Nonsense.
Abu Dhabi 21 was a great race though, farcical ending aside.
It really wasn't - absolute farce.
Allegedly, Clare Williams is going to stand as a conservative MP.
Shame... I used to quite like her
Ps why can't I see the text formatting toolbar anymore? What have I done!
Allegedly, Clare Williams is going to stand as a conservative MP.
Shame... I used to quite like her
Well, the Conservatives are currently doing about as well as her F1 team 😂
Abu Dhabi 21 was a great race though, farcical ending aside.
It was great telly if you were a casual fan, maybe. But as a sporting event it was farce.
it wasn’t a great race, with the leader cruising with a large lead and a rather anticlimactic end in sight, unless something unexpected
when something unexpected did indeed happen, the rules were thrown out of the window.
great telly. Maybe. But not a great race.
I think before the farce of the last couple of laps it had been good, "Checo's a legend" was exciting. But rewriting the rules on the hoof was so not right.
Abu Dhabi definitely was great TV. If I remember Sky let Channel 4 broadcast their feed so it would have had a pretty big live audience, not sure what a casual view would have made of a year long championship being decided by someones interpretation of some arcane rules, but whats done is done.
Brazil 2008 had that absolute cliffhanger ending and only a whiff of controversy too, but I think that was mostly just sour grapes.
My favourite non-controversial race was probably Jenson Button winning Canada in 2011
Button in Canada, 2011, was film script stuff as was Hamilton’s last gasp first title win. As for Abu Dhabi .... I liked the fact the race director like the rest of us just wanted to let the chief protagonists get on with a race even if he forgot the rules. And it did highlight what an extended fandango restarts are after a safety car and it is good to see they have tried to mitigate that since then.
Blimey leclerc spinning after he locked up was unlucky, preventing anyone else improving and getting him through to sq3 was merely coincidental of course
Weird quali, some drivers absolutely flying, others having zero grip. Pleased to see some of the rookies doing well!
Piastri puts it in the wall again. 9 points advantage to Norris, which seems more comfortable considering hes on pole and Piastri is only 4th...🤞
Good showing by Bearman, until the crucial last quali session. Doh!
Verstappen down in 16th, a couple of seasons ago you'd expect him to win from there...
Hadjar up in 5th.
Hadjar up in 5th
I like Tsunoda but it's hard to see how Red Bull can't drop him and promote Hadjar. Lawson deserves a full season in the RB alongside a rookie.
Both Red Bulls out in Q3, both RBs in the top ten - I wonder if Max will ask to swap cars!
Great race! Epic drive from Max. Excellent from Kimi and nicely done by Lawson with the one stopper.
I actually don't mind Max having a great race now that Horner has sodded off!
Good result, don't think pasty can really moan too much about the penalty although I'm sure he will.
Shout out for Ollie Bearman - another good weekend for him
So, if Piastri wins the next three races plus the sprint, and Norris is second, Piastri would win by one point. 🤔
Can someone check my maths?
(Not that I believe that will happen!)
I actually don't mind Max having a great race now that Horner has sodded off!
Good result, don't think pasty can really moan too much about the penalty although I'm sure he will.
His mistake was trying to avoid the crash, if he'd gone in and not braked so that he was slightly ahead at the apex he'd have been fine (such is the daft nature of the current rules)
Correct. 3X8pnts(race diff) + 1x1pnt(spint diff) = 25pnts to a 24pnt deficit. The high likelihood is that Verstappen will take at least one of those victories, which will make it all the harder for anyone to challenge Norris. I think if Norris takes one more victory and precluding a retirement, it's hard to see him losing the championship at that point.
His mistake was trying to avoid the crash, if he'd gone in and not braked so that he was slightly ahead at the apex he'd have been fine (such is the daft nature of the current rules)
I think in that case, he'd be the one out the race as if he'd not braked, he'd simply have collected those on the outside and been either spun around or speared and out. He was already carrying too much speed to slow for the apex and make the corner - not braking or even braking later wouldn't have helped with anything other than owning the corner. Being right doesn't help if you're not still in it to win it.
His mistake was trying to avoid the crash, if he'd gone in and not braked so that he was slightly ahead at the apex he'd have been fine (such is the daft nature of the current rules)
I think in that case, he'd be the one out the race as if he'd not braked, he'd simply have collected those on the outside and been either spun around or speared and out. He was already carrying too much speed to slow for the apex and make the corner - not braking or even braking later wouldn't have helped with anything other than owning the corner. Being right doesn't help if you're not still in it to win it.
Maybe, maybe not. If he's lucky, they bang wheels, Kimi goes spinning off into Leclerc AND gets the penalty. Or Kimi backs out (the Max approach).
Piastri was on the inside so only has to be marginally ahead at the apex and stay within track limits for it to be "his corner" and thus reverse the blame completely. Attempting to back out and avoid the incident nailed on the penalty.
To me it was a racing incident, Kimi was too focused on Leclerc and didn't leave enough space. Unfortunate it took out Leclerc but that's the risk being on the outside of two cars in that corner.
Attempting to back out and avoid the incident nailed on the penalty.
Was going to say the same thing, Piastri backing out signals that he doesn't think there's a gap after all. Shouldn't have been there in the place. Penalty justified in this instance, outcome could've been a whole lot worse than forcing Kimi into Charles front tyre.
This is why is I dislike the way the current rules have been written.
Max is a generational talent, there is no doubt. It’s just a shame that his bullying and the pandering response of the stewards & FIA has changed the rules of the sport for the worse.
Do any other levels of motorsport have this “ahead at the apex/divebomb, ‘right to the corner’” nonsense?
Lewis got a 10 second penalty in Mexico for taking evasive action the consequences of which were far far less than Piasti's move. Piastri was lucky not to get a drive through penalty.
3X8pnts(race diff) + 1x1pnt(spint diff) = 25pnts to a 24pnt deficit.
A race win is 25 points, second is 18 so the difference is 7 points. That means that if Lando places 2nd in everything he'd give up 22 points and still win. But Oscar won't win everything, Lando won't be second and there's plenty scope for another big points swing.
Attempting to back out and avoid the incident nailed on the penalty.
Was going to say the same thing, Piastri backing out signals that he doesn't think there's a gap after all. Shouldn't have been there in the place. Penalty justified in this instance, outcome could've been a whole lot worse than forcing Kimi into Charles front tyre.
I’m not sure we can confidently label it as “backing out”. Setting the rules aside for the moment, Piastri’s aim would have been to make the corner as tightly as possible to allow space on the outside, preventing Antonelli from making the apex and thus giving Piastri the chance to run alongside him through turn 2 and get the inside into turn 3. And to be fair to Piastri, it looked like he had that done: yes, his inside front was locking, but the car was still turning thanks to the more-loaded outside front, and it didn’t appear that he was going to be unable to make a tight turn through 1 so as to leave room for both into 2. It was a gamble because he couldn’t be sure where Leclerc was positioning himself, and although Leclerc left a ton of room, it seemed that Antonelli was perhaps a little more focused on not hitting Leclerc and turned in a bit more sharply than he needed to. So, still leaving the rules aside, it really looks like a racing incident that starts with a move that’s right on the edge of control—but still just about not going beyond that line—and falls foul of the inherent risk that comes with three cars entering a turn at pretty much the same time.
Bring in the current rule book and it’s different: Piastri gets a penalty, regardless of whether he’s backing out from, or still committing to, the move. But this wasn’t a move that was out of control, it wasn’t a move that would send him across to the outside of the track on exit; it was a move that would have been controlled—even if only just—had Antonelli left space. The current rules outlaw it, though, by way of a very specific condition. The question is whether that adds to or detracts from racing as a whole.
It’s worse than all of that, as it’s “guidelines” rather than rules. Unfortunately they seem to be increasingly used as strict rules. The Race have a good article on it this morning
I thought Oscar was unlucky to get the penalty and thought it was a racing incident. Given it was the first corner post restart I would have expected the 1st corner of the race latitude to be used. I agree had he not locked up then he could have easily had a DNF depending on how he and Kimi met but I dont think he deserved the penalty. It was a typical Max move that isn’t penalised.
Setting the rules aside for the moment
It's not Mario Kart.
Given it was the first corner post restart I would have expected the 1st corner of the race latitude to be used.
Not the same situation though as the cars are far more spread out.
I don't see how it can be seen as a racing incident at all.
I think the rules say that to get ownership of a corner the inside car needs to have it's front wheel alongside the outside cars mirror and be under control - he was neither far enough alongside Antonelli and a front wheel was locked up. Clear cut penalty.
Piastri is very much under pressure and is resorting to riskier tactics to try and get ahead as he, recently, has simply not been faster than Norris.
(After the incident at the corner he was still 0.5 second/lap slower than Norris who happily drove away)
If you allow this sort of thing to go unpunished then you're opening the door to everybody back to taking a dive down the inside with the predictable results. Not only can incidents take out innocent participants but it can also result in many tens of thousands of pounds of damage - those very expensive spare parts don't just appear for free.
It was a typical Max move that isn’t penalised.
I agree, the "old" Max would have done that but I bet he wouldn't now, or at least would have been better at doing it.
Lewis got a 10 second penalty in Mexico for taking evasive action
He got the penalty for gaining an advantage by going off the track.
It's not Mario Kart.
That was a quick edit there. Will re-state anyway - there are guidelines.
I think the rules say that to get ownership of a corner the inside car needs to have it's front wheel alongside the outside cars mirror and be under control - he was neither far enough alongside Antonelli and a front wheel was locked up. Clear cut penalty.
but he was well alongside as they started braking. He did not drift wide due to locking, so was still under control. It's perfectly normal to lock the inside there due to the way the track falls away. OTOH, Kimi moved off of his line as he overcompensated for LeClerc
Not only can incidents take out innocent participants but it can also result in many tens of thousands of pounds of damage - those very expensive spare parts don't just appear for free.
That's a terrible reason to use for rules/guidelines. Motor racing is expensive and **** happens. People (other than Max) aren't suddenly going to fling there cars into invisible gaps if the guidelines were relaxed, as they are aware that they still need to be able to finish the race too.
Remember F1 worked fine for many, many, years without these guidelines. Stewards need the power to penalise people* who take the piss. Writing down the exact definition of "take the piss" just lands the sport in the mess it finds itself in now
*Max
but he was well alongside as they started braking.
Not far enough though.
He didnotdrift wide due to locking, so was still under control.
Doesn't matter - as soon as you've locked a wheel you're determined to be not in control because that wheel can no longer brake or steer - which is why he went into Antonneli. If he was in control he wouldn't have hit him.
It's perfectly normal to lock the inside there due to the way the track falls away.
Absolutely - and Piastri, as one of the top racers in the world, would have known that and the consequences of risking that happening .... and yet he still did it.
Remember F1 worked fine for many, many, years without these guidelines.
Did it? I remember many instances of inconsistent penalties - the rules/guidelines where introduced to help stop that.
If Piastri was 20 points ahead in the WC I'm not sure he would have made that move.
but he was well alongside as they started braking. He did not drift wide due to locking, so was still under control. It's perfectly normal to lock the inside there due to the way the track falls away.
Yup, exactly. This wasn’t a desperate move, it appeared to start with the front axle in the correct position (even though it didn’t remain there), it was in control regardless of any locking of an unweighted wheel, and it wasn’t something that he was aborting after realising it wasn’t on.
Maybe that could be because Piastri is in a generic racing mindset and not as laser-focused on the specifics of the rules as Verstappen would be.
The awkward point is that the front wheel has to be at least alongside the wing mirror up to the apex. But if you’re on the inside you have to brake harder to make the corner, or you run wide on exit and are at risk of being done for forcing another driver off the track. Part of argument here, I think, is that margin between being at fault for one thing and being at fault for another is just unreasonably narrow.
He was setting up for that move all down the pit straight and cocked it up. His 'where was I meant to go' defence doesn't hold up as he could have backed off before he went for the lunge and gone for a clearer overtake the following lap(s).
Lando has him rattled - and I know people don't like Lando - but I can easily see him with his cheeky-chap nature playing mind games in the garage and on the track and that would come naturally to him.
Im still of the racing incident view. Part of the reason for the lock up was that Kimi hadn’t left the required space for Oscar to fit when he had got to the point of having the right to the corner. I accept Kimi was also being squeezed by LeClerc on the outside as he tried the even more optimistic round the outside move. Kimi should have left room and pushed Charles further out but I understand why that didnt happen. Im not sure Kimi even knew Oscar was there as he was focused on Charles
Stewards report:
At the Safety Car restart on Lap 6, Car 81 (Oscar Piastri) attempted to overtake Car 12 (Kimi Antonelli) on the inside of Turn 1.In doing so, Piastri did not establish the required overlap prior to and at the apex, as his front axle was not alongside the mirror of Car 12, as defined in the Driving Standard Guidelines for overtaking on the inside of a corner.Piastri locked the brakes as he attempted to avoid contact by slowing, but was unable to do so and made contact with Antonelli.This contact caused Antonelli to make secondary contact with Car 16 (Charles Leclerc), who was positioned on the outside and was forced to retire from the race as a result.Piastri was therefore wholly responsible for the collision. A 10-second time penalty and 2 penalty points are considered appropriate and consistent with recent precedents.
Not sure I agree with that ruling. So if Piastri had let off the brakes and rolled into the apex a bit faster and got his nose in front of Antonelli then he wouldn't be to blame? I get that they have to have some sort of objective measure of who can claim a corner but it just seems open to manipulation.
. Im not sure Kimi even knew Oscar was there as he was focused on Charles
The on-camera showed Kimi looking in his left mirror immediately before and during the crash, so he was definitely focussed on Oscar. Charles was much further out and had left plenty of room.
Odd comment from the Ferrari boss - and yes 2nd is in constructors now out of reach. Your car doesn't work and Max and the Mercedes pair are regularly scoring points!...
lol You know he's talking bolleaux when he says the engineers are doing a good job. Just listen to their onboards. The drivers are being nagged the whole time to manage car issues - plank wear, tyre temps, brake temps, it's ridiculous. I mean the arrogance to tell a 7x WDC to "focus on driving" when the car is this shite and has stayed the same all season 😂
Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton, Leclerc ... where are the championships? Oh right, nothing in nearly 20 years. Maybe the drivers aren't the problem after all.
But this wasn’t a move that was out of control, it wasn’t a move that would send him across to the outside of the track on exit; it was a move that would have been controlled—even if only just—had Antonelli left space.
I think you could justify this if Piastri hadn't been complaining all weekend about a lack of grip, and more generally Piastri's inability to control the Maclaren's [new] habit of sliding at the rear. One of the reasons he's doing less well now against Norris is that he can [deal with the sliding] I think Piastri was hoping that he'd both get to corner ahead of Kimi, and that Charles would've backed off earlier. It didn't work out that way I do agree with you that the use of guidelines to hand out time penalties doesn't add much to the racing.
The whole Piastri, Kimi, Le Clerc corner thing is simple. A Ferrari was knocked out of the race so someone must be punished.
Have things changed that much in F1 since the Bernie days?
A bit of mental arithmetic says that if Max wins the last 3 races and the sprint he ends up on 424 points.
That's 34 ahead of Norris' current score so if Norris finishes 5th in everything (3x10 + 4) they'd be tied on points but Max would take the title on the number of wins.
Similarly Piastri would need 69 points to beat Max but even placing 2nd in everything would only net him 3x18 + 7 = 61 points.
So TLDR is that a resurgent Max is actually really good news for Norris.
Can’t help but think of BAR.
Did the render stop loading halfway through?
Looks like a cut'n'shut before they paint both ends the same colour. Or possibly... 
Looks like MBS has been taking election tips from Vlad and is the only candidate in the "free, fair and transparent" FIA election process. Wonder what will happen if the courts uphold the appeal that the rules effectively make it impossible for more than one person to stand.
Wonder what will happen if the courts uphold the appeal
Where are the courts? Who are the judges? What are their retirement plans after they leave their modest public servant salaries?
Not sure I'm feeling a 4am start on Sunday!!... 😬😬🤣
...but stupid NowTV doesn't show race re-runs for ages after. So it's live or C4 highlights. 🤔
Sorry to spam the thread, Daughter and me want to go to GP next year, has anyone got any advice re travel packages. Ticket/transfer deals etc etc
Thinking if Barcelona, but if anyone's got any experience of others would be welcome
...but stupid NowTV doesn't show race re-runs for ages after.
Looking at the TV guide Sky F1 channel race re-run is at 7.55am with build up show re-run from 7am. That feels like the perfect time for me to still be able to avoid spoilers. Caveat assumed that that is dependant on no major delays during the race.
Woah, crazy qualifying.
I presume Ferrari are going to give Lewis a new engine turned up to 11 for reliability reasons
I presume Ferrari are going to give Lewis a new engine turned up to 11 for reliability reasons
He was quick in FP3 so hopefully they change it back to that spec. He did make a mistake but the car was awful, risky strategy as well.
I presume Ferrari are going to give Lewis a new engine turned up to 11 for reliability reasons
Forecast is for a dry race so obvious thing is to fit new engine and change to a dry weather setup.
I presume Ferrari are going to give Lewis a new engine turned up to 11 for reliability reasons
…that would be far too sensible and go against Ferrari’s ethos of being completely useless!!! 🤣