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Red Bull - never! [insert shocked face!]
Are they pissed because their Aero God Newey missed the wing flex trick?
Or did he know it but just didn't say anything?!
(Seeing as he possibly stopped working for them some time ago)
the-muffin-manFull Member
Red Bull – never! [insert shocked face!]Are they pissed because their Aero God Newey missed the wing flex trick?
It's baffling to me that it's been deemed legal given what other teams have had to change in the past.
I don't know if anybody remembers the Red Bull rear wing where the entire assembly kind-of tilted backwards. Not so different and they had to change it despite it passing the flex tests (iirc).
Also as I mentioned Mclaren's wing also appears to contravene the rule stating that the AoA of the DRS flap must not change except by the DRS mechanism activating.
But hey ho, it wouldn't be F1 if such things were ruled on consistently. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It will be legal this season. I bet it isn't legal next season.
Much like Mercedes DAS system.
And I think Red Bull's issues go a bit deeper than a bit of wing flex.
Or he did he know it but just didn’t say anything?!
He's not infallible. He missed the double-diffuser trick which three other teams spotted, probably the biggest example.
He’s not infallible. He missed the double-diffuser trick which three other teams spotted, probably the biggest example.
I think the other teams understood the double diffuser, but didn't believe it would be legal. As I recall, it came down to the interpretation of the difference between a "hole" and a "slot". Slots, used to channel airflow between different elements of an aerodynamic device, were illegal. However, holes in the bodywork were legal as long as you could look down vertically and see the ground (or something like that.) So, the Brawn diffuser was legal because it had holes rather than slots, even though the holes functioned as slots.
I think the other teams understood the double diffuser, but didn’t believe it would be legal.
The story is that before the regs were signed off Brawn pretty much said "these rules allow you to do THIS, is that what you want?" and the other teams still let them through. So then Brawn did the thing he'd told them was allowed, and it was quick, then the other teams were suddenly questioning if it was legal.
lol verstappen got sentenced to do "accomplish some work of public interest" for swearing in the press session
Also Mclaren have now been asked to modify their rear wing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The FIA aren't fit for purpose - yesterday they said it was fine, now they say it isn't.
And now this - petty power-tripping!...
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/f1s-verstappen-swearing-punishment-is-a-farcical-overreaction/
...they went round lamping one-another back in the 70's! 🙂
Only in F1, can a legality judgement change within 24 hours!
Only in F1, can a legality judgement change within 24 hours!
McLaren have offered to "proactively modify" their rear wing. The legality judgement hasn't changed, the wing will change.
Listening to coverage on R5 it was said that that wing wouldn't be used this weekend anyway as it's only useful on high speed tracks. So COTA would have been the next possible outing.
thols2
McLaren have offered to “proactively modify” their rear wing. The legality judgement hasn’t changed, the wing will change.
Not according to AMuS/Tobi Gruner.
https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/1837087623434903593
The legality hasn't changed or they would be disqualified and lose points from the races they used it at. They have voluntarily agreed not to do it again.
thols2
Full Member
The legality hasn’t changed or they would be disqualified and lose points from the races they used it at. They have voluntarily agreed not to do it again.
The rule they were violating already existed. The previous ruling that the wing was legal was incorrect.
That they weren't DQ'd from the previous races proves nothing except the inadequacy/inconsistency of the FIA.
The rule they were violating already existed. The previous ruling that the wing was legal was incorrect.
That they weren’t DQ’d from the previous races proves nothing except the inadequacy/inconsistency of the FIA.
It passed the load tests so it's legal. McLaren voluntarily agreed to modify it for the future.
Stuff like this is impossible to police, the teams always find ways to evade the intent of the rules. Nobody wants a championship decided in a courtroom so stuff like this is sorted out by a backroom deal. Best thing for the sport.
thols2
It passed the load tests so it’s legal. McLaren voluntarily agreed to modify it for the future.
No I take your point, it passed scrutineering on that date but I'd say that was because it being tested inadequately. From now on it will be monitored more thoroughly and won't pass.
The wing never met the letter of the rules though, that's what I meant by 'illegal'.
And the change is only voluntary in as much that they are still free to run it if they want, but will be disqualified.
The wing did meet the letter of the rules and it passed the test designed to ensure it did. It almost certainly ignores the spirit of the rules, but there ain’t no test for that. It’s legal by the letter and affirmed by the test.
1) The letter of the law, the spirit of the law, the intent of the law are all open to interpretation.
2) The test is a measurable, repeatable exercise that determines if a part is legal.
3) The trouble is that not all tests can check all aspects of the law so if the engineer finds something that isn't being tested, then it cannot be illegal and can therefore be exploited.
Once the team does something like the flexi-wing to exploit point 3 the law makers either change point 1, the law, or improve point 2, the test, and the engineers go off to find a new point3, the loophole.
those saying it's legal need to read this:
and this
Neither of those links say it wasnt legal (or was legal)
Its just in the grey area between them, which is what F1 has always been about.
The FIA are now just clarifying the rules, removing some of the grey area and McLaren (and others) will be making modifications ahead of using that type of wing again.
Anyway...Lando & Max on the front row for tomorrow. Could get spicy again....
Colapinto making himself look very handy again. 0.01s away from embarrassing his teammate
Lewis for the win then?
Colapinto making himself look very handy again. 0.01s away from embarrassing his teammate
Handy for James Vowels as negotiations for 2026 line-up goes.
What a superb job Nico Hulkenberg is doing right now. Obviously the car is much improved this year but still, that was epic.
those saying it’s legal need to read this:
An article that states “there are no doubts that the wing fully complies with the current regulations, and passes all the static tests”?
if the engineer finds something that isn’t being tested, then it cannot be illegal
Except that’s completely and utterly untrue.
Bez
An article that states “there are no doubts that the wing fully complies with the current regulations, and passes all the static tests”?
Yes, read the rest of the article, autosport believe it passes the regulations but not the technical directive regarding excessive flex or movement outside the plane of the static load tests.
[i]if the engineer finds something that isn’t being tested, then it cannot be illegal
Except that’s completely and utterly untrue.[i/]
But if the engineer can find something that does pass all legal tests it is legal. Hmmm...
It is a bit like the British Cycling 'rule' that states the basic coaching course only qualifies you to coach on trails where "the route is obvious and there are no drops more than axle height" or something similar. It is therefore not against their rules to coach someone to ride along a plank 10m in the air. Obviously not what they meant but still within their rules.
or the London Underground rule that you are allowed to break and most people do break every day "Dogs must be carried on escalators" I don't have a dog but happily use the escalators without carrying one.
Right, but the point is that TfL don’t have a dog-detection machine to test with, and they don’t test by putting a scrutineer at the bottom of every elevator in every station checking that everyone is carrying a dog. So if one of the other people using the tube dobbed you in and said you’d been using the escalators without a dog, then TfL would look at the CCTV recordings and see that indeed you hadn’t been carrying a dog at all this year. At which point they might decide they should take action against you for breaking the rule.
But first they’d need to hear your argument about how you’d interpreted the wording of the sign, and how you thought everyone else was being a bit daft to be lugging dogs around when you’d found an alternative and completely defensible meaning of that sentence.
No. Using the TfL example above, the rule/law can be tested and proven in multiple ways. Under F1 rules, there’s a rule which is tested using a very specific means. As such it’s much more akin to drink driving and a breathalyser. There’s a law regarding drink driving, but the law is enforced by a specific test. Pass the test, you didn’t break the law even through you might knowingly have done something to obfuscate the results of the test.
Colapinto making himself look very handy again. 0.01s away from embarrassing his teammate
And Albon was the only one with the upgraded car as well.
Quite! Colapinto has really shone, shame there’s not really a seat for him next year
It sounds like Vowels is trying to loan him out to Sauber for a year or two. As much as I like Bottas and Ricciardo, I think they should both be dropped to make way for Lawson and Colapinto.
I think they should both be dropped to make way for Lawson and Colapinto.
And Bearman at the very least. There are too many 'place holder' drivers on the grid. It could do with a shake up
Well Bearman definitely has a seat for next year and after quali Ricciardo had the air of a man who'd been told what was needed to keep his seat and hadn't delivered so I expect Lawson to be confirmed before Austin. Colapinto is trickier - Audi is his best option but I think they will be looking for someone who can give accurate feedback on the car, so might go for someone (Bottas?) with a bit more experience in F1.
Audi have already signed Hulk for experience.
Bortoleto was the name being touted for the second Audi seat.
I agree. I would still want bumpers if I was lando. Verstappen causing an incident leaving him out of the point even if it results in no points for max would be a win for him.
Edit - Doh didn't realise race had started! I'll now be avoiding this thread until after the C4 highlights
I'm not as up on tactics as some on here, but seemed to me like McLaren missed a trick not pitting Piastri earlier to give a chance of going for MV and second place?
Very annoying Danny Ric at the end as well!?
Lando delivered, but was lucky not to crash on several occasions.
McLaren were keeping Oscar out as long as possible, to cover off the safety car risk.
(if there had been one Oscar would have pitted and exited ahead of Max, and could have backed him up at the restart to help out Lando)
I'm sure they worked out, that without a SC Max was out of range. 3rd was the best he could achieve under normal racing, so it was worth the gamble.
I don't think Audi or Haas are interested in Colapinto, unfortunately, however Audi might change their mind of he keeps this up. That said, is he keeps outperforming Albon then I'd be feeling a bit twitchy if I was him!
Possibly Danny Riciardo’s last F1 race - if you were given the chance to have your last lap be an all out effort for the fastest lap - I think you’d take it too.
I’ve never stopped watching F1 even when it’s got a bit dull but I’m more excited about it now than I have been for years
Yep 2016 and 2021 are probably the most recent ones.
Slightly gutted my cheap sky deal ended. I’m actually finding myself looking forwards to the highlights, which hasn’t happened for ages.
As much as I want the close championship, I do think watching the onboard today, looking down the nose of Landos car, the front wing flex is looking very suspect.
McLaren really need to keep that livery…
Great drive from Colapinto again.
Have to say it leaves a bad taste in the mouth when Red Bull have the luxury of a second team running way out of the points so they can deploy a car for free to take a point away from their competition. (I mean, I don’t blame them for doing it—I just think owning two teams, or any on-track collaboration between teams, shouldn’t be allowed.)
I thought the extra point for fastest lap was restricted to top ten finishers only. I guess that's another rule change I missed...
I thought the extra point for fastest lap was restricted to top ten finishers only. I guess that’s another rule change I missed…
It is. If someone outside the top ten scores fastest lap, no points are awarded for fastest lap. Ricciardo prevented Norris from scoring one point, he didn't score any points for himself.
At the end of the season that fastest lap point is only significant if Lando misses out by 8 points - that's the 7 that he gave back to Piastri and this potential parting gift from Danny Ric.
Sad to see the Honey Badger looking so broken up at the end of the race - hope he goes on to find success in some other series, and I think he might make a decent pundit too.
At the end of the season that fastest lap point is only significant if Lando misses out by 8 points – that’s the 7 that he gave back to Piastri and this potential parting gift from Danny Ric.
theres another 3 points from where they didn’t swap the drivers in monza too.
Honestly, I thought that was pretty much the best response to the FIA trying to slap his wrist.
I'd love to see a show of solidarity from all the drivers & team principals where they all swear at the start of every response in an FIA press conference.
aw, Daddy says I’m not allowed to swear, I’m LEAVING wah sulk wah ? (streaming eyes emoji)
Does anyone know what he said in the first place for the FIA to get so upset?
[i]Does anyone know what he said in the first place for the FIA to get so upset?[i/i]
IO think he said ***** ** * * **********!
At the end of the season that fastest lap point is only significant if Lando misses out by 8 points
If he’s 8 points adrift then it makes no difference at all, but I’d say it’s pretty significant if they’re tied on points and Max has more wins, or Lando is one point behind with more wins…
Honestly, I thought that was pretty much the best response to the FIA trying to slap his wrist.
I thought it was petty, immature and contemptible. He is earning millions living a very comfortable lifestyle because of the TV coverage his chosen branch of motorsport gets. Don’t screw up the press conference by swearing. Don’t give one word answers to the questions when the FIA tell you off. He is trying to make out that’s it’s ok in other sports - I can’t think of many where swearing in the press conference would be normal. He wasn’t sanctioned for his team radio in immediate response to an incident - he was swearing about his car/team. Even without the FIA sanctioning him I’d expect Horner to have been having a strong word about how a team works. However he’s clearly pissed off and that means the FIA have found a sanction that works! A fine would have been trivial to him.
Quite funny when Colapinto sent it down the inside of both of next year's Williams drivers 🙂
For anyone else who missed the actual move it's 0:45 in this:
Don’t screw up the press conference by swearing.
Did he screw-up the presser? I thought it was refreshingly non-corporate TBH. I'd rather drivers express themselves honestly than have them be bland and make the sorts of non-comment that you see in other sports. I don't mind the FIA having a word and saying "Can you all mind your P's & Q's please", but to try to impose a sanction is really treating them like children.
Hamilton said he hoped Max would ignore the punishment and certainly wouldn’t do it if it was him. I reckon the drivers are pretty much behind Verstappen on this.
Because they are all spoiled children! I suspect they don't like the idea that the FIA might have found a punishment that actually hurts them rather than a fine and the overreaction from the drivers will just tell the FIA they've found a way to control them. Who'd have thought that being told to do something "useful" with your time would be such a punishment. I noticed last night he was ranting that he already does useful stuff for the sport including having spent HALF AN HOUR with some junior stewards earlier this year to support their training!
Did he screw-up the presser? I thought it was refreshingly non-corporate TBH.
Its a live press conference broadcast on media around the world, including in many nations who are much more prudish than we are in the UK about swearing. The business reality of F1 is that those are particular growth markets for them. if you don't want to be in "business" of F1 then don't drive an F1 car. You can't complain your sport is too corporate when that's exactly why you make millions.
I’d rather drivers express themselves honestly than have them be bland and make the sorts of non-comment that you see in other sports.
But you don't need to say the car is "F****D" to say that there's a problem with it. Indeed it actually adds no insight to the problem. Is it handling, acceleration, breaking, etc. I get why he's not happy, when he had a great car he was winning, nor he's having to fight to be on the podium. A more mature response could have got that across without swearing, but if I was Horner I'd not be happy even if he'd said "the car just isn't right" - a bit of press training would teach him that you don't throw your team under the bus like that, especially when they are the ones tightening the bolts on your 200mph plastic box. The corporate response would have been something like "some of the changes we've made to the car this season haven't brought us the improvements we hoped they would, the guys are working really hard to try and catch up, but that is F1 - we only see how successful they've been once the lights go green. I know we will take the data from the weekend and use it to make more improvements for the next race. Its not ideal for me, but it certainly makes it more interesting for the spectators." There's loads of opportunity outside the press conference for him to show his personality.
I don’t mind the FIA having a word and saying “Can you all mind your P’s & Q’s please”,
The FIA ruling strongly suggests that all drivers have previously been warned: "But, as this topic has been raised before and is well known by the competitors, the Stewards determined to order a greater penalty than previously"
but to try to impose a sanction is really treating them like children.
Because they behave like spoilt children! Its not surprising F1 drivers behave like kids - they live in a weird bubble like premiership footballers etc, but sometimes kids need told to behave and they need some form of sanction that makes them try to avoid doing it again. Other kids watching need to see that sometimes being a smart arse isn't actually that smart.
Because they behave like spoilt children!
Do they - really!?
They may have big egos and be a bit stroppy sometimes, but compared to many sports F1 drivers live pretty clean lives.
When did you last see photos of an F1 driver falling out of a nightclub at 4am?
When did you last see photos of an F1 driver falling out of a nightclub at 4am?
Probably best to add a ‘No Kimi’ clause to that ?
Anyone who has walked around a supermarket in France thats playing the uncensored version of US and British music will know that they don't see the F word in the same way we do over on the continent.
Now I know that most of the F1 drivers are very international and should understand what words they are using but I'm not sure it really warrants all of this.
When did you last see photos of an F1 driver falling out of a nightclub at 4am?
Norris - Amsterdam in May.
Anyone who has walked around a supermarket in France thats playing the uncensored version of US and British music will know that they don’t see the F word in the same way we do over on the continent.
Well, that’s probably largely because they speak French and those who do speak English probably aren’t paying enough attention to it. I suspect they’d be less likely to play the uncensored versions of native pothymouthing.
I suspect if Gasly started describing his Alpine as “niqué” or as a “boîte de merde” you’d get a lot of raised eyebrows across the channel.
Because they are all spoiled children!
I think judging the character of any sports people let alone F1 drivers on the two or so hours of intense media scrutiny, that they're required to do under their contracts, the pressure to perform, and physical toll that the average GP weekend involves based on one driver saying the word "****ed" is probably not a good idea.
.
It’s an interesting contrast with F1 (via Netflix) using Guenther Steiner’s constant barrage of f-bombs as a marketing tool to raise the profile of the sport though…
…way more than F1 has ever managed on its own.
I reckon the drivers are pretty much behind Verstappen on this
If you watch the post race FIA press conference Lando backed Max and gave very limited answers as well.
If you're Dutch the F-bomb is just another word. If you're not a native English speaker these things will happen (see Yuki's outburst)
If F1 want the drivers to be personalities then these things are going to happen and a fine would be acceptable.
Otherwise you just go back to the 2000's where Kimi would say 3 words across a whole press conference....
If you’re Dutch the F-bomb is just another word.
Honestly, think most people use it to signify that the next word in the sentence is going to be a noun.
If you’re Dutch the F-bomb is just another word
That's as maybe but he's been media trained to within an inch of his life. He knows what is expected he just doesn't want to. Definitely spitting the dummy. Why is he getting back up tacitly as it may be? Well how do you think he'd treat you if it were you between him and the wall exiting a corner?