Forum menu
Bloody hell what a race!
Yep - fantastic race.
Norris and McLaren must be utterly thrilled with that result. Would love to be a fly on the wall in the Red Bull debrief. Actually, maybe on the ceiling, not on the wall, there'll probably be a couple of Verstappens punching holes in the walls right now.
Amazing drive by Oscar.
Inspired move to take the lead and then soaked up the pressure until Charles tyres ran out.
Strong recovery drive by Lando to chip away at Max's lead
Colapinto delivered on Williams faith to score points along with Bearman
Need to see the Perez/Sainz incident again to see what happened
I think Perez taps Saint rear wheel.
doing it with Haas ahead of his teammate deserves credit
I missed what happened to Hulk as he was clear of Colapinto just before Perez & Sainz crashed.
Ah, he hit debris from the crash.
Norris and McLaren must be utterly thrilled with that result.
Norris's expression says otherwise.
You can always rely on Perez to make a balls of a good race.
Looks like the majority of the blame is with Sainz.
He was drifting into the middle of the track, crowding out Perez.
Also worth noting that with the sunset, the visibility wouldn't have been great in that section of the circuit.
Ah, he hit debris from the crash.
looks more like he was mugged by Hamilton and Bearman immediately after the crash, but before the VSC
Norris’s expression says otherwise.
He seems to have gotten over it.
https://twitter.com/McLarenF1/status/1835327617576079625
He was drifting into the middle of the track, crowding out Perez.
There you go - I saw it the other way, Perez squeezing Sainz despite there being a wall on the other side of him.
We'll see what the stewards think - they usually fall on the side of RB
You can see Sainz drifting over, Perez maintains his line. Neither are innocent, but sainz is more to blame
The stewards seem to disagree - a 50:50 - no major blame for either.
Both sides likely pissed off, but that's showbiz.
Where is Bearman from?
Born in London, but suspect he’s had a very international childhood.
Yeah...weird accent. Weirder than Lando's even
I’ve a feeling Bearman is from Chelmsford! Doesn’t sound like it though…
Is his mother Italian? Hence the non engerlish accent
He’s been a Ferrari junior for the last few years, which may have had an effect
I feel old, I'm watching Sainz and Verstappen and Magnussen and thinking 'I used to watch your dads racing' And Alex Brundell and Mick Schumacher too when they pop up.
Not quite old enough to remember Nico Rosberg's dad, or Damon Hill's or Jaques Villeneurve's, but I've seen two generations of Nakajima
Though the commentator saying F1 is closer than it’s ever been made me think “you’re a lot younger than me”.
You used to be able to measure the gaps between teams with a sundial in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s & 90s. What era are you remembering?
You can see Sainz drifting over, Perez maintains his line. Neither are innocent, but sainz is more to blame
But Sainz was taking the normal racing line and Perez was the one who had forward visibility of the other car and had the opportunity to react, but he didn’t. Sainz never made a sudden move, and depending on which angle you watch the incident from it looks like either they both drift equally into each other or Perez is just napping and lets Sainz drift into him—it’s not as if drivers don’t squeeze each other on straights, so Perez really shouldn’t have been caught out there. The 50/50 call from the stewards seems pretty reasonable to me.
Sainz’s real mistake was in thinking he could have a pop at Leclerc: that move was never on and was only going to push him back towards Perez. So the last few hundred yards were certainly not the smartest bit of driving from Sainz, but I don’t see him as having significantly greater responsibility for the crash.
Great drive from Piastri though—another ruthless pass, and a supreme defence. Thought Leclerc’s defence from Perez at turn 1 was pretty stunning too. And a cracking job from Colapinto, emphatically vindicating Vowles’ decision in no time.
Great drive from Piastri though
Or is it another win he only got thanks to Norris helping him after the team messed up? If Norris hadn't slowed the Mexican Defence Minister and Perez had come out ahead after his stop I reckon Piastri would've struggled to pass him.
Anyhow, Singapore next where RedBull have tended to struggle in recent years. Could liven up the title fight!
Or is it another win he only got thanks to Norris helping him after the team messed up?
Piastri made the most of the opportunities that came his way. He qualified well and put in two mega laps before his pitstop to get the overcut on Perez, then he ignored his engineer's instructions to conserve his tyres and made a brilliant pass on Leclerc before the Ferrari had time to get its tyres up to temperature. That was the only real opportunity he was going to get to pass Leclerc and he seized it. He then defended brilliantly and managed to hold onto the lead. If that's not a great drive, hard to image what would count.
Norris spoiled his own weekend in Qualifying. He was lucky that after such a poor show he's closed on the leader.
Anyway, Singapore next. What's the odds on a safety car?
Sainz’s real mistake was in thinking he could have a pop at Leclerc: that move was never on and was only going to push him back towards Perez.
Agreed. That was a move from someone frustrated at losing their seat, I think
You used to be able to measure the gaps between teams with a sundial in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s & 90s. What era are you remembering?
Monza '71 - top 5 covered by six tenths of a second.
Jarama '81 - top 5 covered by a second and a quarter.
Jerez '86 - Senna beat Mansell by 0.014 of a second. Etc. 🙂
Sainz’s real mistake was in thinking he could have a pop at Leclerc:
To misquote Senna, when you stop aiming for the gap etc etc. Had he pulled it off, everyone would be praising him for his ballsy overtake, and wondering if Ferrari were replacing the wrong driver. Brilliant drives by both the McLarens, Perez and Sainz crash seemed avoidable with hindsight.
Great race though, just highlights that tyres really shouldn't be limiting the racing. That they have to look after their tyres constantly is partly why we don't get more of this
I feel old, I’m watching Sainz and Verstappen and Magnussen and thinking ‘I used to watch your dads racing’ And Alex Brundell and Mick Schumacher too when they pop up.
Not quite old enough to remember Nico Rosberg’s dad, or Damon Hill’s or Jaques Villeneurve’s, but I’ve seen two generations of Nakajima
Also the Verstappens!
Great race, the Rookies certainly did well, usually a pay driver/rookie would have binned it long before Sainz and Perez got together. I wonder if the strategies of some teams were influenced by two new drivers on a street circuit.
Great drive by Oscar. Who knows what sainz and Perez were thinking. To crash in a straight line is more than a little careless from both of them.
What a great race.
What an absolutely stunning performance by Piastri.
Wonder how Lando feels, on the one hand he finally has a race winning car, on the other his team mate is easily the most talented new driver on the grid.
Singapore next, which is Red Bulls recent bogey track. Mclaren must be genuine favourites now for the Constructors Championship. Still can't see Lando overhauling Max though 59 points is still a big margin
Just watched the Youtube highlights again, absolutely sublime driving from Piastri. He's unbelievably cool under pressure and just perfect on the brakes. Not sure he has the outright pace to put it on pole every week but he's a brilliant racer.
To misquote Senna, when you stop aiming for the gap etc etc. Had he pulled it off, everyone would be praising him for his ballsy overtake, and wondering if Ferrari were replacing the wrong driver.
There was absolutely nothing there to pull off. He wasn’t ahead and would have had to go around the outside at turn 2 against a car with fading grip. That’s just not a move: Leclerc couldn’t have left enough space on the exit if he’d tried. Had he gone for it they’d both have been into the outside wall in tangle of wheels. Sainz is normally an outstanding race day driver but in the last few races he’s looked pretty lacklustre.
If that’s not a great drive, hard to image what would count.
No arguments that Piastri was sublime in his defence from leclerc - my comment was more that the pit wall seems to be the weak link at the moment. They've got two outstanding drivers and have developed the best car on the grid, but they have recently had to ask the drivers to get them out of problems of their own making.
Not quite old enough to remember Nico Rosberg’s dad, or Damon Hill’s.....
My Mum was a big fan of Graham. Largely due to a meeting in the car park at Oulton Park where she got me his autograph and was hugely impressed by how tidy his car boot was!
Me, I was a Jim Clark fan but there was no way you could get anywhere near him for an autograph.
Not quite old enough to remember Nico Rosberg’s dad, or Damon Hill’s…..
I was at Silverstone when Keke did that 160 mph average in quali - bit late for Graham Hill though. I think my earliest F1 memory is the squabble about the width of Hunt's car.
Not quite old enough to remember Nico Rosberg’s dad, or Damon Hill’s…
I think the earliest one that I definitely remember seeing was Mansell's losing the Championship at Adelaide when his tyre blew.
I was at Silverstone when Keke did that 160 mph average in quali
Ha! So was I. I was a schooloik though in my defence.
With all the talk of Piastri's brilliant defence, there's little of the folly of Leclerc staying 0.6 seconds behind him and cooking his tyres.
Why didn't he ease back for a lap and save some life and have a real crack. And repeat?
Me, I was a Jim Clark fan but there was no way you could get anywhere near him for an autograph.
Jim Clarks death was my JFK moment.
I think the earliest one that I definitely remember seeing was Mansell’s losing the Championship at Adelaide when his tyre blew.
Definitely a burned-on image from that era 🙂 I’m reasonably confident I recall watching Prost and Arnoux in the Renaults, which puts me at 1982, which tallies with my memory of having a poster of John Watson in the McLaren from that year on my bedroom wall. I recall few specific races from before ‘86 though.
Why didn’t he ease back for a lap and save some life and have a real crack. And repeat?
My memory may be off here (see above) but wasn’t Perez close behind him from right after the pit stops?
Are we ready for Flexi-Wing Round 2!...
Saw this crop up on twitter but now Motorsport.com have featured it if feels like the story has more weight...
the-muffin-manFull Member
Are we ready for Flexi-Wing Round 2!…Saw this crop up on twitter but now Motorsport.com have featured it if feels like the story has more weight…
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/did-mclarens-mini-drs-rear-wing-trick-help-piastri-keep-leclerc-at-bay-in-baku/10654884//blockquote >
It's a clever solution, however, I think it's illegal. The DRS system is not only regulated by the normal 'flexiwing' rules that affect the front wing, there are specific rules about the DRS flap not being allowed to change angle without being commanded to by the electronics (assuming that is what is happening, it's hard to tell on the video where the movement actually is).
Jim Clarks death was my JFK moment.
Yes mine too. It was the end of my young self having heroes.
I can remember exactly where I was when I heard that Aryton Senna had died.
He was the first one I remember, I hadn't watched qualifying for that weekend but obviously must have heard about Roland Ratzenburger on the race broadcast.
There's been a few while I've been watching, since the early 90s, those two in F1 plus Jules Bianchi and Maria Comba. I can also remember the names of two marshals killed, Graham Beverage and Paulo Gizlemberti. And there's a few others I remember seeing, Greg Moore, Justin Wilson, Dan Wheldon, Henry Surtees, Antoine Hubert.
That's in just over thirty years of watching, there will have been others but they are the ones I remember. Probably as many as in single a bad year back in the sixties but it's still a sobering list.
But Senna is the one where I remember exactly where I was and exactly what the newsreader on the radio said.
I've no idea where I was for Princess Diana or Margaret Thatcher for instance, although i do remember the announcement of the Queen's death, but not word for word like Senna.
Rather bizarrely I can remember exactly where I was when I heard that Michael Jackson had died, as I was watching a UFO at the time and that definitely sticks in the mind, but that's another story.
Are we ready for Flexi-Wing Round 2!
Christian Horner said over the weekend that the authorities had clarified matters and now the other teams will be working to take advantage of the permitted flex, so it will be all on for next year to see who can make the flexiest wing that passes the load tests.
I was at Silverstone when Keke did that 160 mph average in quali – bit late for Graham Hill though. I think my earliest F1 memory is the squabble about the width of Hunt’s car.
I have a memory so faint that it's just a memory of a memory, if that makes sense, of seeing Hunt in the number 1 McLaren at Silverstone. I was only allowed to go to practice - we stayed with relatives on a farm near Towcester and I have an equally-vague memory of hearing the race start on the Sunday. Of course, that means I saw Gilles at his first grand prix, and even the first turbo grand prix car. 🙂
Then we got into BMX and motocross and I didn't go to another grand prix until 1991. 🙁
If Norris doesn't win the championship this year (which he isn't going to from 2+ race wins back), I reckon Piastri will be defacto no.1 driver by the start of next season.
I should probably also bookmark this to see how wrong I got it
I reckon Piastri will be defacto no.1 driver by the start of next season.
McLaren don't have no. 1 and no. 2 drivers. If Piastri can beat Norris over the first half of the season, he will get priority if he's in title contention and Norris isn't. Otherwise, he'll have to race Norris same as everyone else.
McLaren don’t have no. 1 and no. 2 drivers.
Hence "de facto", just like Norris is being put forward as the key driver at the moment.
Also no reason why they couldn't get rid of that Ron Dennis hangover if it gave them a better shot at the title. Especially when racing a team that will clearly push for a single driver to hoover up maximum points.
There's only Red Bull who have a defined No.1 driver from the start of a season.
Also no reason why they couldn’t get rid of that Ron Dennis hangover
I think they believe it's a better long-term philosophy than having an official no. 1 driver who is favoured right from the beginning of the year in the way that Schumacher was at Ferrari. It means that they can hire two top-level drivers, which is better for the constructor's championship. AFAIK, all the teams have the same policy of both drivers being allowed to fight, but one driver being asked to support the other when only one of them is in title contention. Problem is, Max is a much better driver than Perez so they don't actually have to impose team orders on Perez. Same as Bottas at Merc - he took care of the team orders problem himself.
no. 1 driver who is favoured right from the beginning of the year in the way that Schumacher was at Ferrari.
That did backfire though, one race fairly early in 1999 Irvine moved over for Schumacher. I can't remember which, Schumacher broke his leg (Silverstone IIRC?) and Irvine went on to lose a very close title battle with Hakkinen. Had they not moved him over earlier in the season Irvine would have been World Champ.
Ferrari at the time would rather Schumacher lost the title than Irvine won it. Irvine has said he was only in F1 for the money as he already had a lucrative racing career in Japan.
And no team plans for their lead driver being injured.
AFAIK, all the teams have the same policy of both drivers being allowed to fight, but one driver being asked to support the other when only one of them is in title contention.
I'm sure they all do, but I also bet they all have an unofficial top driver too. At the very least the wage bill will ensure they have a particular driver to try and get their money's worth from.
I think at least half the teams have a clear lead driver
And no team plans for their lead driver being injured
This is the issue of having a number 1/2 driver.
If something happens to your lead driver it puts you in a difficult position as a team.
Lets say that Max looses faith in RB and moves elsewhere.
Now you're stuck with Checco and having to convince another top line driver to a team, where one has just left believing its no longer a title winning team.
I think at least half the teams have a clear lead driver
Ooh, I wonder if we can all agree on who that is?
Red Bull Verstappen
McLaren Norris now, but subject to change
Ferrari LeClerc, but Sainz is still up there
Mercedes. Hmm. Hamilton ahead and has greater expectations of him, but he's heading out...
Aston Martin. Should be Alonso but Stroll is a Stroll
RBVCA Tsunoda. Maybe? But he keeps being passed over for promotion. I think Ricardo is the team favourite but I don't think he's just justifying it right now
Alpine. They are very close. Usually to the point of trying to occupy the same piece of track. Probably favour Gasly as he's staying
Hass. Hulkenburg. I don't think the team are biased, I think he's earned it by beating KMag
Williams. Albon. Same as above, he's earned it. But looks like he's going to have bring his A game to keep it, even more so next year!
Sauber. Bottas. Although Zhou is actually ahead in the championship.
I think the only one which would systematically favour one driver is RB, the others who are doing so will change which that is from race to race according to whoever is in the best position or whatever the Papaya Rules say.
I think at least half the teams have a clear lead driver
Some of them have a driver who is generally faster, some have a driver who is paid more because they have a better record or are more marketable, but the only example I can think of of a driver actually being treated as a number 2 is Sargeant at Williams being required to give up his car for Albon (and let's face it, that was completely justified). The lead drivers got that status by being faster than their teammates and the minute they stop being faster, they lose that status.
Theres a difference between having a lead driver due to one of them having a pace advantage and a #1/#2 driver due to decisions.
McLaren/Williams/Mercedes have always let the drivers sort it out between them.
Ferrari had a 1/2 system in the Michael days, but will have to operate on a equal basis once Lewis arrives.
RedBull have generally operated a 1/2 system throughout the Seb/Max periods.
(all the other teams arnt competitive enough for it to matter)
The issue McLaren have is that Lando is only ahead, because of the preferential treatment he had at the start of the season. He was given all of latest upgrades with Oscar having to run a B spec car (plus Oscar was still developing)
Post Imola, Oscar has outscored everyone on the grid.
The constructors title is still up for grabs by either McLaren/Ferrari/RedBull, so all of the teams need to keep both drivers motivated to maximise the points to the end of the season.
RedBull have generally operated a 1/2 system throughout the Seb/Max periods.
Vettel become their no. 1 because he adapted to the blown diffuser better than Webber, he became team leader because he was faster. When Ricciardo replaced Webber, he outpaced Vettel and became their no. 1 because he was faster. When Max joined, the two drivers were neck and neck and Red Bull offered Ricciardo a pretty decent paycheck to stay on. If he had stayed on and was faster than Max, he would be a multiple champion now. But he didn't. Since then, Red Bull hasn't been able to find a driver able to compete with Max on pace so Max is the team leader.
Red Bull rapidly need to be moving some young drivers up the ladder or they'll be left behind. Merc, Ferrari and Williams now have all shown they've got talent ready to go. McLaren have got Bortoleto currently leading F2.
Yuki and Ricciardo should be binned IMO. As much as their old system was brutal, it worked. Hadjar and Lawson should be in there.
Agree. I don't understand why RB binned Gasley and Albon out of RBR after half a season each, and have kept Checo in underperforming (and loosing them the constructors this year) for so so long.
The point of the junior team was to develop drivers for RBR and it isn't doing that with the incumbents. Yuki is fine but isn't going to the big time. Riccardo is old news with lacklustre performance. Time to BIN and bring through young talent.
To be fair to Checco, the car has been a handful this year.
Even Max couldnt get any performance out of it at Baku.
Hopefully they drop Ricciardo and put Lawson in the seat for next year.
kittyr
Free Member
Agree. I don’t understand why RB binned Gasley and Albon out of RBR after half a season each, and have kept Checo in underperforming (and loosing them the constructors this year) for so so long
Checo brings sponsorship from (iirc) telmex
Checo's dad had a mild heart attack when he saw the crash, found unconscious at his home. In hospital and apparnetly doing OK now.
[i]In hospital and apparently doing OK now.[/i] Glad to hear that
Rumours on Twitter that Ricciardo won't see out the rest of the season to be replaced by Lawson.
Possibly replaced even as soon as Singapore, but I'm not sure even Red Bull are so heartless they'd not allow Ricciardo to bow out at a Grand Prix rather than be dumped between races.
The point of the junior team was to develop drivers for RBR
Until you employ a problem like Verstappen. He's both the answer to all your prayers and your worst nightmare all at the same time. Give him a car that he likes and he'll win everything, but at the same time,; anyone paired with him looks amateur by comparison. I genuinely think that at the time of Albon Gasly etc RB probably didn't even realise the monster they'd created, and those drivers were released with probably nothing more than a discussion around a table with Horner and Marko, until they realised that the cupboard of junior drivers capable of driving like Verstappen was empty. Hence you then need to find some-one with bags of experience, has some talent (or enough to not embarrass themselves) and will bring some sponsor money as well.
When Perez goes, they'll be in the shit. If Verstappen goes, I reckon part the team will probably breathe a bit of sigh of relief that they don't have to worry about it anymore.
Give him a car that he likes and he’ll win everything, but at the same time, anyone paired with him looks amateur by comparison
The same thing happened at Benetton, with Schumacher & Brundle.
At the time nobody knew how good Schumacher was, and Brundle looked poor in comparison.
Flavio dropped him for Patrese and that gap to Schumacher grew.
Flavios always said in hindsight, they should have kept Brundle.
I think a lot of the problem is that they are trying to find someone with the same driving style/car preference as Verstappen, which I believe is quite unusual. Riccardo appeared to. I do wonder if he's just not found a car suited to him since he left. RB don't appear to have found anyone who gets on with a similar car since.
The real greats can of course drive anything rapidly, Senna or Clark for instance, but they are few and far between. There's a few who were very, very good once they got the car in the sweet spot, but would struggle a bit if it wasn't quite right, Button or even Vettel for instance.
RB trying to make a car suit very different driving styles is always going to be difficult. Now Checo is happier with the car, as he said at the last couple of races, he appears to be good again, I don't think he's suddenly rediscovered some talent, he's just more confident with the car. But it appears to not suit Max so well, he's not suddenly lost talent.
There is a lot of luck involved here, especially for people like Riccardo who appear less able to adapt to different cars, you need to be in the right team at the right time when their car is how you like it. Which I guess is very difficult to judge before you join them.
The real greats can of course drive anything rapidly, Senna or Clark for instance
It's impossible to know really, the change to this currently regulation of cars is really unlike anything that's gone before, a real difference in concept, and often meant that the fastest drivers in them has been the luck of the draw based on nothing more than than a particular way they drive around a corner - or don't. I don't think Verstappen is uniquely gifted to drive these particular cars, it's just that the team, the car designer and driver worked out a way of exploiting each of their individual strengths to its maximum in a way that other teams failed to do
I think a lot of the problem is that they are trying to find someone with the same driving style/car preference as Verstappen
The issue is that Verstappen has incredible reflexes and can cope with a very nervous rear end on the car. Red Bull didn't develop the car to suit Verstappen in the way that a lot of people seem to believe, they just developed the car to be fast, but that made the rear end nervous and only Verstappen has been able to drive it on the very limit.
However, in trying to get more downforce out of the car, they seem to have gone too far (maybe like Merc did a couple of years back) and it made the car unbalanced and impossible to drive. Last weekend they tried some new things and it was improved on Friday, but then on Saturday they changed the setup on Verstappen's car, but not Perez's. That was a mistake and Verstappen just couldn't get any pace out of it.