[Closed] Forget tuition fees, how expensive is Diesel now

Why are some people so quick to assume that anyone who suggests gridlocked town centres and commutes measured in hours are not great ideas is advocating going back to the horse and cart?

It's called a [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man ]straw man argument[/url] and is very popular on internet forums 🙂 And in life actually - so much so that I don't think people realise they are doing it and how ridiculous they are being. It's how arguments degenerate quickly into slanging matches, because to build a straw man for someone's position is to insult that position. My sister used to do it all the time when I argued with her and it drove me bloody bonkers 🙁

That was a bit of a rhetorical question 🙂

To say that Surf_Mat mums car is a lifestyle choice is a bit of an oversimplification of the problem. The increased use of the car has allowed poeple to scatter far and wide, If you were deny the use of a car to poeple such as care nurse who go out on visits, you going see a lot of suffering and i dont mean not having someone to open a jar of picles for them when they need it. The commnuity spirit has long been lost, so you cant say "change your job" as someone would need to step in. Course you could move the poeple closer to the support, but thats feels/sounds a bit draconian.

mat are you paranoid *? tbh I have said little to you in the last few months iirc - do you have an excel spreadsheet where you keep count?
Ignoring me would be much more convincing argument if you did not keep replying 🙄 Yes you can choose to ignore me but you choose to ignore the question and then isnult me instead which does not reflect well on you. You keep doing this insult and they are not getting any better and I am still not trying to compete with them
I would clam down if I were you

* I missed delusional "stalking" you oh get a grip like I care enough what anyone says on here to track them. Mat that is realy rather tragic that you think you are that important that someone would do that.

Have the thread back people I am sure mat is big enough to walk away and leave the thread alone now as well

you're consumption of energy and resources is WAAAAY above average, if everyone did similar to you we'd still be using too much.

In global terms, definitely, but in UK terms, I'm actually consuming a lot less than the average person. Still some way to go though. I accept that.

[b]It's not about being 'sanctimonious' or 'self-righteous' ... if everyone did similar to me, then we'd save an awful lot of energy and resources.[/b]

you sir, are hilarious! - well done!

No you see what you've done is try to look clever by making me look silly but you've employed a sort of selective deafness, then taken my comments out of context, therefore you fail.

As a relatively low consumer of energy and resources,if everyone in the UK consumed only as much as me, then our collective consumption would be a lot lower. It's not sanctimony, it's just fact. Of course, this would mean that no-one drove cars or anything, and our society would collapse. I accept this. It's simply not viable as things stand. But we do all need to collectively look at ways to reduce out energy consumption.

Or we can bury our heads in the sand then our grandchildren will be fighting wars over stuff like clean water and that.

Not actually interested in the rest of this argument because it's silly and I'm right anyway. It's good to be right; saves an awful lot of unnecessary stress and bother. 🙂

Absolutely no problem with nurses driving around to visit people, it would be stupid to complain about that. Likewise no problem with people driving short distances in a truck to get their boat out or whatever.

But those things are clearly not the same as couples taking jobs 200 miles apart*, commuting from London to a chalet in the Alps or using a Range Rover for their 15k/year daily commuter.

* This is a thorny issue as the jobs in question may represent people's chance at things they really want very deeply. Cutting people off from their dreams is a pretty drastic thing to do.

As for Juan - a lost cause. Your post is so stupid and so full of complete lunacy that I will not even bother to respond.

Then I'm afraid you lose. Sorry, but there it is. The facts can't lie.

I don't make the rules, I merely remind others what they are.

Junkyard - it's a deal.

Mol - excellent post.

Your post is so stupid and so full of complete lunacy that I will not even bother to respond.

There's two views being expressed here and both are too simplistic.

Juan, Elfin and TJ's "no cars ever" (though Elfin is taking the softer "no cars in teh city" approach)- the world has changed. The economy depends on people being able to travel distances and rural communities especially are let down by modern bus services and rail networks where they used to be provided for. We do need less cars on the road but not a total eradication. They are a bit of a luxury, but so's central heating and the internet. Can you imagine what the world would do without the internet these days? It's the same with the car whether you like it or not I'm afraid.

The car heads- we don't need to depend on cars for everything, but the answer isn't carrying on as normal. We need to accept alternative lower emission fuels such as hydrogen fuel cell. While we've not reached peak oil yet as previously claimed we aren't far off it and constantly burning oil that we will need for plastics in the future isn't a great idea, regardless of your opinion on "green" lifestyles. And we do need better public transport so the majority of people in towns of a medium size (Huddersfield, Dumfries, Swansea) do have a genuine alternative to the car for day-to-day use.

So, yes, we do need cars in the modern world, and we can't go back, but we need to change how they work to sort out the problems associated with them.

Elfin and TJ's "no cars ever" (though Elfin is taking the softer "no cars in teh city" approach)

No I'm not. Again, my comments are taken out of context. I'm simply saying too many people use cars unnecessarily.

We live in a reasonably free society, therefore it's up to individuals to make choices and that. But don't blame someone else when it is in fact you yourself who are part of the problem too. We all are. Hence the need for collective efforts to decrease our consumption.

Spokes - If that was what I had said. You could start by actually reading

it will take a generation to remove the dependence on the car. It will have to be done. The days of cheap energy are going fast. Make commuting non viable, invest in public transport.

Surf matt - you really are a horses arse. classic bluster from the stupid and selfish. Beneath contempt. Ignorant, stupid, selfish

Jeremy- we don't have to lose dependance on the car, just the oil that fuels it.

Yes we do spokes - we simply will not have the cheapo energy in the future. Energy will become expensive and scarce. Moving vast numbers of people around individually is a huge waste of energy that we will not have.

Zulu - I'll just come back to you on one thing. What about the rest of the costs of motoring you forgot in your analysis. From the cost of enforcing motoring law to the cost of the thousands of dead and injured to the costs of local roads to the cost of ill health from pollution to the cost of - oh you get the point. Or rather yo won't as usual.

*adds surfmatt to ignore list*

Surf matt - you really are a horses arse. classic bluster from the stupid and selfish. Beneath contempt. Ignorant, stupid, selfish

Still worth six insults though eh?

Still if it makes you feel better oh lord of "opinion backed up by zero facts" (you've just spouted more nonsense with nothing to back it up) then do carry on.

*adds TJ to the "just leave him be dear, he's just a bit confused" list.

Beneath contempt. Ignorant, stupid, selfish

This a good debate. I really don't see how this is going to change, people will still use their cars until they can not afford to do so, simple. When that happens then people will look for alternatives, which means the world will catch on and invent/produce something cheaper. We won't suddenly regress in to a world where everyone walks to work, or uses a non existent and financially unviable public transport system.

How do you think all those nice shiny bike parts are delivered? Will everyone accept that the price of bike parts, in fact everything not produced in the UK, will have to go up due to the massive rise in cost of transportation? It may mean we are riding around on £5K Orange 5's after a nice long walk to pick it up from Halifax 🙂
I will bet £10 that in £50 years time the cost of personal transport will still be mainly affordable after all the magical oil has gone 🙂

Jeremy, since a major part of what I do is study cheap energy alternatives, I can fairly comfortably say that, despite prices going up, we will have reasonably affordable energy. It just won't be carbon based.

But don't blame someone else when it is in fact you yourself who are part of the problem too. We all are.

This reminds me of that TomTom ad on billboards at the moment- the slogan is something like
[i]You're not stuck in traffic. You are traffic.[/i]
I always read it as something like
[i]You're not experiencing congestion. You are congestion.[/i]

which is probably not what they were going for

Mol - excellent post.

Thanks for reading. The thread's better when there aren't poison barbs flying around the place TANDEMJEREMY! 🙂

We live in a reasonably free society

An illusion.

Back on topic: I think that many cities could also do a lot more to help public transport. For example Cardiff badly needs concentric routes that go around the city rather than simply radial ones.

Jeremy, since a major part of what I do is study cheap energy alternatives, I can fairly comfortably say that, despite prices going up, we will have reasonably affordable energy. It just won't be carbon based

Amen!

Spokescycles - rubbish. it will not be cheap and plentiful. That is 100% certain.

Or does one first year undergrad know more than the rest of the worlds energy scientists put together?

What are you proposing?

Or does one first year undergrad know more than the rest of the worlds energy scientists put together?

Probably knows more than you about the subject though eh?

Si - I'd take a thousand pounds on that.

Personal transport as we know it will have to go. Its unsustainable and we will not have the energy to power it.

1st year? You really are on another planet.

Scotland in particular is excellently placed for renewable options, including-

geothermal (relatively cheap as no inputs at all- just fire water down into the lovely warm radioactive rock you have up there and it'll come up hot and turning turbines).

wind. (cheap enough, and improving year on year. just need to deal with the nimbys)

Hydroelectric (not cheap by current standards but will be in reach as oil reserves dwindle. again, needs some serious anti-nimby work)

Tidal/wave (Edinburgh is home of the developer of the world's best wave system, the Pelamis snake. This one of the lowest impact and most impressive future systems and has the lowest cost per kwh of any energy system, r+d costs excluded).

Solar (again, improving daily and excellently affordable personal energy with prices set to drop eventually).

The world's energy scientists are, actually, quite hopeful, and the cost of these technologies will drop relative to oil eventually. More will be developed and the existing ones will be massively more efficient.

Personal transport as we know it will have to go

If you mean the car powered by an internal combustion engine
Not in your, or my life-time it won't
& I even doubt in my kids life-time too

Heh.. Spokes - having the price of something drop RELATIVE to an alternative is not the same as having it actually drop!

Big big big difference!

Yep, but makes it relatively affordable. That and the costs will be going down relative to current costs for renewables so it'll keep us going quite nicely. There's no doubt it'll cost us more than it will now but not so much that we have to give up what we've got.

I think there are other problems with wind than just NIMBYs- unpredictability of supply being one.

That's not to say it's not a good thing though.

elf - i apologise, i was hoping to strike a happy balance between mockery/banter, and attempting to raise what i thought to be a valid point*.

i'm sorry.

(*if there is a problem with energy/resource consumption, then we're all part of it. yes, even you - future generations will only be able to dream about a lifestyle as 'rich' as yours, however modest it seems right now)

I work from home. Live in an urban area. Don't need a car to survive but life would be much more difficult without it. Try to minimise my carbon footprint but sometimes I am guilty of driving 4 miles to meet my friends for a ride. I have just read this thread and probably lost over an hour in productive work time. There is some vitriol on here. Most mountain bikers I meet get on really well. Not so here it seems! TJ - I am sure that we will find an alternative to oil (although I am no scientist) - if someone had told the avaerage person in the late 19th century man would visit the moon within a hundred years I'm sure they would have expressed similar disbelief to yours and our transport problems. Entertaining read thanks to all!!!!!

Spokes - I know a fair bit about these alternatives. I first met the chaps in charge of pelarmis ten years ago.

Serious question. How are you going to power cars with them? One that no one has been able to answer.

Hydrogen? Fuel cell?

Needs a lot of expensive rare earths,in the fuel cells, needs a so far impossible to engineer delivery and distribution system as well as being a massively inefficient way of using energy.

Electric? Batteries I say to you.

Supercompressed air? Again innefficeinces on a massive scale but actully has some potential for town transport. ?Very hard to get enough energy in a msall enough space

This is the issue. Its getting the amount of energy in a portable form and avoiding a conversion from one form to another. Running cars on hydrogen is hideously inefficient. Wind converted to electric used to crack water to produce hydrogen to make electricity to provide movement. Inefficiencies at every stage

So what tech are you going to use to power cars?

I am sure that we will find an alternative to oil (although I am no scientist) - if someone had told the avaerage person in the late 19th century man would visit the moon within a hundred years I'm sure they would have expressed similar disbelief to yours and our transport problems.

Thing is you can't just assume some magic fairy dust will come along to sort things out given enough time. There are also lots of things people (just after the moon landings, say) assumed would have happened/been invented yet that haven't and don't look like they will in the near future- manned missions to Mars, anyone?

It's not necessarily just a question of science solving everything given enough time or motivation. There are some hard limits to things.

MrSalmon

Thing is you can't just assume some magic fairy dust will come along to sort things out given enough time. There are also lots of things people (just after the moon landings, say) assumed would have happened/been invented yet that haven't

Yeh. where's my hoverbike. I was promised a hoverbike

Yep, but makes it relatively affordable

Where'd you get that logic from?

If diesel suddenly went up to £100 a gallon then we'd be stuffed. If biodiesel was £80 we'd still be stuffed!

Most mountain bikers I meet get on really well

You would with these people too. Internet forums do something strange to people's minds 🙂

if someone had told the avaerage person in the late 19th century man would visit the moon within a hundred years I'm sure they would have expressed similar disbelief to yours and our transport problems

Doubtful. Back then they believed that technology would solve every problem and the world was theirs to exploit. D'oh!

Re TJ - in my view, the alternative energy sources most likely to replace fossil fuels and continue enabling mass personal transport in the future would be battery electric vehicles powered by nuclear power or hydrogen fuel cell powered by hydrogen extraced with nuclear or renewable energy sources.

So perhaps massive H generating plants powered by volcanoes and piped all over the world. Iceland, Italy, Greece, Cornwall etc etc would become the new energy rich nations. It would have significant technical problems though since the energy density of H is very low and perhaps more importantly the value is negligible since you can't make plastics from it etc etc.

Oh almost forgot - cellulosic ethanol produced on a local scale is another option.

Not saying I would LIKE to see mass personal transportation continue on the current scale mind...

I have a few gallons of ethanol if anyone's stuck 🙂

[url= http://world.honda.com/automobile/index.html ]World Honda [/url]

Honda are putting a lot of effort into alternative fuels so much so I think they're considering dropping diesels soon.

They've come up with some pretty clever ways of producing hydrogen too, like a central heating boiler for your home that as a byproduct produces hydrogen for your car. But i think they're big vision is stand alone solar fuel stations but then who's going to pay for all that.......

Honda don't make those diesel engines anyway.

But i think they're big vision is stand alone solar fuel stations but then who's going to pay for all that.......

£20k for a car, or £30k for a car that fuels itself.. hmm let me think.. 🙂

OMFG! Check out the video on that Honda link of their little robots showing people around and serving drinks at a press launch!

THAT'S THE COOLEST THING I HAVE EVER SEEN!!

Honda don't make those diesel engines anyway.

Only non Honda diesel engines I know of aren't very current?

I thought that was made by Suzuki but I could be wrong.

Still - little walking robots serving drinks! Who cares about diesel engines!

The current 2.2 idtec and the previous ictdi are Honda.

But if you are unlucky enough to own a previous gen 1.7 civic that'll be an isuzu/vauxhall engine urgghh.

I suppose if they actually ever need to make some money they could mount some guns to an asimo.....

DYK, the Diesel engine was invented before Diesel fuel.

Also, TJ really is coming across as a massive plonker.

ASIMO rules!

Come on guys. Oil is running out. What is the fuel to run the car of the future?

In my post above I listed the three likeliest at the moment. All with massive disadvantages compared to what we have now.

Electric - battery limitations. We simply cannot get enough energy in a small enough space / weight.

Hydrogen - infrastructure to distribute it. Its a whole load more difficult that gas or petrol. Massive inefficiencies. 1 kw of elec will not give 1/10th of that as usable power in the car.

Supercompressed air - range.

This is not some minor technical issue. This is fundamental and even if solved it will be an expensive solution.

Teh only answer is to plan for this now - and move our society in the direction where energy is more sensibly used.

I think that battery technology is one area that could keep on improving in the future.

Hydrogen distribution is difficult - as I said in my post.

I think they will come up with a solution to either battery capacity, biofuel creation or hydrogen distribution that would be JUST enough to meet our needs IF we radically cut down on wasteful transport as TJ and the rest of us say.