Lots of love for the UP! GTi.
Smith & Sniff off YouTube (Top Gear & 5th Gear presenters) rate the UP! As possibly the best modern GTi they’ve driven.
Even I looked at one, and I drive like yer-grandad.
Owned a s2 Rs turbo back in the 90’s it is by far the worst car I have owned, poor handling, lots of torque steer and not very fast, but it did enjoy breaking 3rd gear, I really have no idea worth so much money these days, I cold not get rid of mine fast enough, replaced it with a civil vti which was brilliant car back in the day.
Had an escort RS Turbo 89. Was rubbish to be honest. Nice seats. Got stolen and made into a C reg. Replaced with a Golf 2 Gti 16v. Much much better car.
Always like the XR2.
Anyone remember the even rarer Lotus Cartlon?
Be interesting to see what these ultimately sell for
Lots of love for the UP! GTi.
More or less the same size as a Mk1 Golf IIRC, and similar power:weight (though it’s heavier?)
Back in the day I used to envy my mates in there GTE's, Mexico's, XR2's and RS Turbos as though my R5 Gordini Turbo was no doubt just as quick I never had he patience to accelerate long enough for the turbo lag to finally end and it to then finally kick in.
I had an xr2 then an rs turbo escort then a cossie then back to an xr2 , xr2 was the best for razzing about, lost the cossie into a field on a wet corner when nipping to the shops with a mate in another car doh...
My mate had until recently a mint lancia delta hf integrale it was like being sat in a motorbike, he sold it for about 30k iirc madness now he scoots about in a clio 182 that's pretty mad, my dad had a bright yellow fiat mirafiori as mentioned above that was bonkers too
Mate of mine got a rs500, only because he was friends with the dealer and each dealer got an allocation of one. Poor chap sold it for what he paid, 22k I think, to buy a house. One last year with 10k on it and unmolested went for 115k at auction. He is still miffed....it was his wife who made him sell it.
^^^
Many of us could think like that though - anyone who had an Escort Mexico, Fiesta XR2, 3.0l Capri, 205GTi etc etc etc could have kept it wrapped up and made very good money on it. I had several and they all got sold to buy the next car...
Anyone remember the even rarer Lotus Cartlon
The rarity of that car was unfortunately part of the reason my friend died on that night in 1994.
My old man used to drive Sierra cossies v fast at times for work. I loved seeing them
A mates dad had a Cosworth, used to drive fast everywhere. We once got a lift from him to a race, got on the M5 at about 6 am it was very quiet. My dad had never been in it, was asking questions to Paul the owner, Paul mentions this new fangled ABS braking system! We had never heard of it. Paul turns round to me an my mate in the back “ hold on lads” he says and proceeds to do an full emergency stop from 120 to 20 mph in middle lane. I thought my eyes were going to fall out. It was a really impressive car at the time, he used to get so many people trying to race him all the time ( it may have been him mind you).
So what is the most' mad' in the same way car of today?
Fiat 595 seems bonkers to me.
So what is the most’ mad’ in the same way car of today?
Fiat 595 seems bonkers to me.
The current crop of Hot Hatches are very different things, a lot more refined than the Escort Cosworth, easier to drive too, but some of are putting out double the power. The new RS3 and AMG 45 that's coming soon will have about 400bhp. The Power is only half the story though, with double clutch gearboxes, massive tyres and clever suspension they'll be faster than Supercars from a few years ago on a track.
Lotus Cartlon
I was at a house party once and stumbled across one of these in the garage whilst I was looking for beer. It may have had the keys in it and I may have started it up. It may also have had some critical bits of piping detached in the engine bay as it left a fair amount of oil on the garage floor afterwards. I didn't find any beer 🙂
My first car was a MK1 XR2 - loved it but it literally rusted away in real time
Anyone remember the even rarer Lotus Cartlon?
There used to be two that sat outside the local Land Rover dealer here in Aberlour that belonged to the sons of the owner (Frank Ogg & sons, now in Elgin), rumour was that one of them previously belonged to Jasper Carrot...
Modern cars are much heavier everywhere - just look at the thickness of the doors on a 205GTI compared to a modern car and you'll see how these were well under a ton, which is unheard of these days outside of Lotus.
I competed in club level motorsport for many years and had some one to one tuition with Chris Hodgetts, who was British Touring Car Champion twice in the 80s. He said the Cosworth in RS500 form was the hardest car he'd ever raced, as the tyres were very narrow by modern standards, there was loads of turbo lag and the power was immense (I think easily 500bhp in race tune).
I've driven quite a few fast Fords and many of them were terrible. The Escort and Fiesta RS turbos had awful toque steer and turbo lag. The Cosworth was nicer to drive, but still had awful power delivery. The Escort Cosworth was better, but it was still laggy in original form (solved a little bit on the later models with a smaller turbo, IIRC, at the expense of tunability). My dad ran a Focus RS Mk1 for a while, and that was much quicker than the figures suggested. You had to be cautious in the wet, though - boot the throttle and it would change lanes on its own.
A modern Focus RS is probably the nearest thing to these - a bit lairy and not totally refined.
JP
bob_summers
The most ‘bonkers’ car I had was the 2L twin cam Fiat Mirafiori sport.
Bonkers is when your garage owning dad drops one of those engines into a ropey old Lada pick up to use as his shop truck. Fully mental in the wet with no load in the back.
Any excuse to post a picture of my series one!
My Aunty used to drive one of those. She used to knit at traffic lights and when the lights changed she'd only put the knitting down again to change into second.
I've just noticed that in one of those eBay listings I posted above, there's a magazine feature that actually mentions the grey series 1 I owned all those years ago.
hodgynd
Member
Northwind..depending on what kind of ” bog standard ” Legacy you have ..it wouldn’t “eat most of them”.. It’s not a particularly fast car ..
It's a totally as-it-left-the-factory Spec B, except that I removed the minidisk player. Against say a Sierra RS it'll win every top trumps round apart from Desirability, largely because it makes an arseload more power... but the real difference is just modernity. Like, turbos- a gen 1 sierra RS makes it to 205bhp, for the blink of an eye at 6000rpm, right? Mine gets over that 205bhp (on the dyno, not claimed) at about 4000rpm but stays above there to the limiter at just shy of 7000, peak torque at about 3200. It's just apples and oranges. Likewise brakes and tyres, I can't even guess what the 60-0 of the Sierra was, it wasn't a thing in the 80s. And of course it's also why mine will never feel as fast or get anyone excited.
Of course, all bets are off once you start tuning, mine'd shit itself in 5 different ways if I ever take it too far north of 300bhp, whereas the YB was built with the sky in mind. I always loved that Cosworth flat refused to deliver Ford's original request for a sub-200bhp engine.
Essex snobbery aside for a moment (as per my last post), I know from a friend who worked at Dunton during the early 90s that one of the test fleet was an Escort Cosworth fitted with a V6 - I assume to be a 2.9 given the Escort Cosworth's Sierra underpinnings.
<oops, too late to edit but I meant to say this>-
hodgynd
Member
It’s not a particularly fast car ..
That was kind of the entire point.
I love an 80s/90s fast ford. What's not to like.
It's a shame that the youth have really stopped buying 10 year old cars and modding them for doing laps. All the 20 year olds now seem to have white or black audis/beemers on PCP and here's me in a battered Berlingo and diesel Mondeo.
Old man had an xr3 (carb), xr3i and a series 2 rs turbo. I had a MK2 xr2 (loved that car) and a MK3 xr2i. Still for smiles per miles I loved my much maligned Saxo VTS the most. Rare now. Especially standard.
Not really Northwind ..you were claiming that your car would out perform a Cosworth ..I merely said that it wouldn't..
I've still got an original what/which car magazine from back in the day which reviews all the hot hatches and fast saloons.
Love digging that out. Surprising which cars did well at the time. Not what you think. Odd ones like the 309 Gti rear their head.
My personal fav was a completely unreliable Renault 5 Gt turbo I owned. Madness in a can. It kept shitting cylinder head gaskets.
Mate still has his original Escort RS Turbo. About 30,000.
Actually I do miss those days... Life was so pure; aspire to have a hot hatch. Drive pointlessly around on a Sunday, and lots of polishing. Might even get a girl. Work Monday.
I bet none were quicker than the white Astramax van I drove back then...
I bet none were quicker than the white Astramax van I drove back then…
I'll raise you my mum's AX GT.
Tupperware on wheels.
Actually I do miss those days… Life was so pure; aspire to have a hot hatch. Drive pointlessly around on a Sunday, and lots of polishing. Might even get a girl. Work Monday.
Indeed, it struck me that in those days MPG and such like wasn’t even on my radar, you drove it, put more petrol in it and drive it some more.
Indeed, it struck me that in those days MPG and such like wasn’t even on my radar, you drove it, put more petrol in it and drive it some more.
Lol and 30 years later I’m still doing the same - bit more expensive in a 4.2 V8 😬
Indeed, it struck me that in those days MPG and such like wasn’t even on my radar, you drove it, put more petrol in it and drive it some more.
Yep, admittedly petrol was about 60p a litre at the time. My Mk2 Golf 16v had a MPG readout, drive it like a saint - 28mpg, drive it like a dick, 28mpg. My VR6 was similar, but it just said 22mpg.
My current old mans cruiser is bigger and faster than both of them, but if it drops below 40mpg I get all twitchy.
He had a series of Granadas including a 2.9 V6 Cosworth
My dad had a few Granadas. I was too young to worry about performance, but I do know that on the long journey to our cousins in the Lake District travelling in the Granada was travelling in style. It was huge, like going up the motorway in a living room.
Astra Van?
I raise you one of these, driven by “one of the lads”
Back then I worked for the Halifax BS, we had a Property Service Division and a fleet of these things.
I was heading into work one day when one of these overtook me on a dual carriageway, I was doing about 60mph and as it passed me it literally shook my car..
I noticed it looked like one of ours, we had sequential number plates, so I floored it and I almost caught it up about 4 miles or so down the road... he was doing just under 100mph.. I slowed to 70, and it just took off swerving in/out of vehicles..
Told my boss, he “had a word”
That word wasn’t enough because the lad did the same the following day 🤷♂️
An Escort RS Turbo was not even that fast in the 80's but the main difference with the 80's cars compared to modern cars is the weight. For cornering, braking, handling that is more important to me that outright speed (especially driving on the road) and that is what I miss from the older cars.
Having said that, I would rather be in an accident in a modern heavier car...
They weren't far off a baked bean tin on wheels. Lots of fun on twisty bits, bit of a dog in a drag race against anything modern, death on a stick in an accident.
Ex XR2i owner here.
And I'd still like a nice S2 RS Turbo.
http://www.norrismotorsport.co.uk/performance-tuning/cvh-engine-rebuild/rsturbo-400bhp/
A mate back in the 90s was a suspension designer doing work on Ford rally cars. I think one year he did parts of the Acropolis rally course three times as a passenger, first time checking the roads out and working what the suspension should be doing, the second time was as the race progressed he was getting feedback from the drivers in the evenings and working out what wasn't working. The third time was going down bits of the course after the event to see if the fixes work.
The last time I saw him before he pushed off to the states to work for an Asian manufacturer ( I want to say Hyundai but cant be certain) as a developement engingeer he was driving a Escort Cosworth with active suspension he could tune from his lap top. A brilliant fun car but a bit disconcerting when he changes suspension from sport mode to 2CV halfway round a corner.
I had an AXGT back in ’94 for a couple of years. Horrible little thing, but around town it could shift. Someone above described it as “Tupperware on wheels”, I thought it was more like a jet propelled egg box. Everything fell apart on it and it would piss water in through the rear windows. But I loved it!
I picked it up from the showroom on the Friday night and by 9:00am the following morning I was sat facing the wrong way on the road between Helmshore and Holcombe after losing it big style on a damp corner. An incident which probably saved my skin as I never tried to “GIVE IT LOADS” again. Then one summer I drove it on a 800 mile road trip with my missus and when we got back I sold it as we were both deaf and suffering from bad backs.
A mate round the corner bought it and over the next year or so proceeded to bounce it off various walls and parked cars until it finally died.
I saw a mint condition one at a car show last year and was absolutely horrified by the flimsiness of it. One proper wreck in it would have been nasty.
Next car was a Fiat Bravo HLX. Big engine, terrible understeer, awful build quality and worse reliability. Followed by a Vectra and 2 x SMax. I do miss my AX, but not enough to want another.
hodgynd
Member
Not really Northwind ..you were claiming that your car would out perform a Cosworth ..I merely said that it wouldn’t..
No, really- my point was that my car'd outperform the cars the OP linked (which is true), despite not being particularly fast itself.
An ex had an AX GT, which replaced an orange MK2 Escort Sport.
The AX was one of the most fun cars I ever drove.
I love old Citroen's, but it used to fall apart remarkably often.
First drive from new the rear view mirror just fell off, the red paint had faded within a year and the alloys were porous.
The passenger seat detached itself after six months too - 'They all do that' apparently.🙂
I still miss that car, but not the ex who was even less reliable.
The only car that was even more shoddily put together was a 1995 Escort RS2000, a company fleet car, which creaked like my left knee.
Bits of interior trim used to come away on bumpy roads and the fuelling was lumpier than a Thai mattress.
Last person out of the office had to take it home. It was horrible.
I live in the past mostly with a Mk2 Golf GTi and a Corrado VR6. Whenever I drive a modern car I'm amazed at how fat and blunt and remote they feel. Anyway... back to fast Fords. I knew a fellah from my motorcycling days who'd put a Cosworth turbo motor in a Ford Transit. I have lasting memories of the thing bearing down on a BMW 3-series at triple figure speeds on the M60 and the look of horror on the BM driver's face as it went past.
A mate of mine had one of the first Escort RS Turbo’s, and he had no end of issues with it; the front suspension units kept failing, the front discs warped, and there were internal trim problems, like the front seats coming apart. Then there was the evening four of us were on our way back along the A4 through Savernake Forest; we’d been to a hifi show in London, (he helped run his dad’s hifi shop), and we were enjoying a nice empty A-road. There was a bit of a dip in the road, which we hit at around 70-ish, and there was a loud bang as the car bottomed out! There was a shower of sparks that lit up a car going in the opposite direction, like a flashbulb going off, and I can still remember seeing their faces, open-mouthed, in the brief flash.
We had no idea what caused it, until my mate had a close look underneath the next day.
It was the fuel pump, which stuck down under the car, and had deep gouges in it from hitting the tarmac at 70!
Not a clever bit of design, really.
PJM1974
Member
Essex snobbery aside for a moment (as per my last post), I know from a friend who worked at Dunton during the early 90s that one of the test fleet was an Escort Cosworth fitted with a V6 – I assume to be a 2.9 given the Escort Cosworth’s Sierra underpinnings.
Yep, saw it lots, but never got to drive it, canary yellow, no big wing, and blue tinted wheels. Was running 2.9 24v Cosworth V6 and auto box. Was apparently a hoot to drive.
Also worked on the 2nd phase Escort Cosworth, as mentioned above, smaller turbo meant that drivability in standard spec was better, but less tuning potential unless you changed the turbo.
Wasn’t all Cosworths and RS2000s mind, if you know how to decode a memory dump from most 90s EEC IV or EEC V ECU you’ll find my surname in there.
I had a 5 GT Turbo, 205 1.9gti that became and Mi16 and the Moonstone Blue sapphire Cossie.
My dear departed Dad rolled it for me and saved me the hassle 😂 To be fair he left me 30grand in his will which was for the express purposes of buying a car to keep. I bought a 993 4s which was a rather sound investment !
So my hot hatch list was:
MK1 Astra GTE 1.7 loved it my first proper car at 17.
Fiesta XR2 MK1 I think. Dangerous, didn't drive in a straight line - seller went to court.
Renault 5 GT Turbo mk1. Flexy body work. Great 2nd - 3Rd gear change. Not stable. Fun. Totally unreliable
Escort RS Turbo s2. Modified. Quick but a handful. Then stopped being quick. Gearbox went. Got nicked in the hot hatch era. Got a decent payout.
GOLF Gti mk2 16v - revved its nuts off. One of my favourite cars ever.
I think a lot of these cars would feel pretty crap to drive these days.