[Closed] Flexible working hours for all.

nealglover - Member
You seem to have have misunderstood what "the right to request" means.

There you go slowly slowly catchy monkey ...

First you have the right to request then at a later stage it becomes law then everyone is in deep poo poo, when everyone is forced to adapt this practice.

It's not hard to show that there will be increased costs, if there will indeed be increased costs.

Job done.

Storm in a tea cup, lots of bluster over nothing.

If only it is that easy to keep the morale up by rejecting the employees' request. If it is so easy to justify what is the point of the announcement by Deputy PM? Win votes?

imnotverygood - Member
....except that what this means is that managers will screw everyone else in order to accommodate the requirements of a PITA who knows their rights.

chewkw

All the ruling means, is that an employee can ask the question. All the employer has to do is [i]be seen to take the request seriously[/i], i.e., "Yes, great, we'll discuss this request and get back to you in a week". One week later, "No, sorry".

No-one screwing the system for a chosen few who know their rights, no managers screwing their staff (any more than usual). Just another layer of bureaucracy and paperwork.

First you have the right to request then at a later stage it becomes law then everyone is in deep poo poo, when everyone is forced to adapt this practice.

It's a bit like saying legalising gay marriage will lead to lots of straight guys all marrying each other.

All the ruling means, is that an employee can ask the question.

Did it need a govt policy to allow employers to ask questions? Before this announcement I could ask my employer anything and they can refuse if it doesn't suit them.

Without any extra rights this is meaningless waffle.

i wouldnt work anywhere that wasnt flexible anymore, unless i absolutely had to.
i do 6am - 7pm mon to weds - then eff off thursday dinner, 6am - 12. 45hrs.

Did it need a govt policy to allow employers to ask questions? Before this announcement I could ask my employer anything and they can refuse if it doesn't suit them.

Without any extra rights this is meaningless waffle.

what is the point of the announcement by Deputy PM? Win votes?

probably, it gets some headlines in the papers at least.

Cost. Flexible hours will cost more to the company

really? i work a 4 day, 30hr week. Costs the company 20% less, I get nearly the same amount done as most full-time employees. I get a 3 day weekend, every weekend. everyone is happy.

Cost. Flexible hours will cost more to the company

It costs less in the knowledge economy, you get higher productivity and less staff turn over. This is why pretty much all high tech firms have been offering flexible working for years....

Worked in a steelworks , production worked 3 shift system, foundry and patternshop started 7.00 till 3.30, maintance and trades worked 8 till 4 .30, and office staff 9.00 till 5.00.

Except for production , nobody could ever explain the difference in start finish times.

Does you company operate on 4 days per week? If not someone still need to cover for that one day and the associated cost.

No, but nobody else works on my jobs. So there will be minimum change when my working hours go back to 5 days, they'll pay me more but i'll do more. My point was that it really probably doesn't cost any more or any less, in my situation.

I also think that some people are confusing flexible working with flexi time. Two very different things.

I also think that some people are confusing [s]flexible working[/s] shouting at the Internet with [s]flexi time[/s] a reasoned argument . Two very different things.

I've had flexi time for the last 7 years, it's the norm in my industry. It works well because it's all project based work so it allows people to build up time when there are deadlines / project demands and then work less hours when it's quiter. I'm fairly sure it improves productivity. Also means people can better manage their commute and child care so turn up at work in a better all round state.

I can see why it might not work in every industry or work place, but it shouldn't be dismissed as a some sort of scam to pander to the lazy and hammer "hard done by" employers.

I've had flexi time for the last 7 years, it's the norm in my industry. It works well because it's all project based work so it allows people to build up time when there are deadlines / project demands and then work less hours when it's quiter. I'm fairly sure it improves productivity. Also means people can better manage their commute and child care so turn up at work in a better all round state.

I can see why it might not work in every industry or work place, but it shouldn't be dismissed as a some sort of scam to pander to the lazy and hammer "hard done by" employers.

Saved me a lot of typing that.

I hate to say this but I think there are elements of truth in all your arguments. I have a sneaking suspicion that extending this beyond families has something to do with age discrimination in employment law - ie the current situation benefits younger workers as they are more likely to have families so could (at a push) be challenged as being discrimination on age grounds.

In terms of how it will work...

Flexible working does help in many environments - but I can't believe any organisation that works in these areas doesn't already operate some flexible system or it would not be competitive in recruitment or output.

Flexible does not necessarily mean flexi-time - it may be part time but regular hours which is can actually be useful in areas with peak demand or don't require much continuity ie retail

There will almost certainly by the odd PITA that pushes the employer to the limit - but I assume that any company of any significant size will put in place a policy on this - all sorted through employment lawyers - probably be more or less off the shelf policies soon. Where probs will occur I imagine is in small businesses.

In places that run shifts, particularly skilled manufacturing, I think the options will be limited and that the reasons to refuse are readily justifiable.

So fundamentally a fuss about nowt unless you are a small business with arsey workers

[img] ?v=1361805933[/img]

The pic there illustrates one of the biggest problems where people confuse turning up every day with being productive at work.

I just applied for flexible working last month.
I'm hoping to drop my Fridays (7hrs).

Reasoning is simple: I want to spend more time with my kids (who are 1 and 4) and child care is so expensive that dropping a day and looking after them myself doesn't actually cost us very much.

Applying involves filling out forms explaining what you want, why, what impacts you think this will have on the business and how you think they can adapt.

The company are free to say no with a suitable justification.

I really don't see what the issue is? 8 till 6, five days a week, doesn't suit everyone for their entire life. And most companies would rather retain staff they know and trust, even if they work less hours.

Of course, the unwritten and realistic fact is 'what happens to those who avail themselves of the right'?

I witnessed close hand a case whereby a request for flexible working was initially told by their manager that it would be unlikely to be granted, but when it went through the process, HR department overruled (as it was a perfectly reasonable request, and other similar ones in different departments had been granted) - Of course the inevitable happened and the manager then set about on a crusade to force this person out...

I just applied for flexible working last month.
I'm hoping to drop my Fridays (7hrs).

That'd be cool as ****. Don't think I can quite get that, but afternoons here and there, working from home etc. is all go as unless I actually have to meet face to face (which being an IT spod I actively avoid of course :-)) I could work anywhere with a decent connection. And often doo.

irc - Member
Without any extra rights this is meaningless waffle.

+1 and very suitable for a Cleggy manifesto/policy promise!

Flexible working has pros and cons and is more suitable to some environments than others. I find that this is often approached largely from the "me, myself, I" perspective rather than the team or company perspective (ok appreciate that theses can and should be aligned) but I find flexible working is often a major PITA for others - a fact that is easily overlooked.

That'd be cool as ****. Don't think I can quite get that

Well, thanks to this legislation, you can at least ask and they have to consider it. 🙂

I could work anywhere with a decent connection. And often do

I already work on my own in a remote serviced office.

I find flexible working is often a major PITA for others - a fact that is easily overlooked.

All workplaces already have to accommodate staff holidays and people off sick, which can happen any time. I'd say that regular reduced hours are generally much easier to accommodate.

First you have the right to request then at a later stage it becomes law then everyone is in deep poo poo, when everyone is forced to adapt this practice.

Ok I see, so your argument against this boils down to what you have [i]imagined[/i] will happen in the future.

Glad we have cleared that up 🙄

Are there any other future events you have made up, that you disagree with ?

We've had quite a few staff resign over the years due to personal circumstances, eg family emigrating, moving back home etc etc. In all cases the company has offered them flexible working, working from home, etc as it's cheaper to accommodate that than hire someone new and spend years getting them up to speed.

We now have two people in Oz (12 hours out of sync, working from home), someone WFH in Poland and a dozen or so WFH in the UK.

No, but nobody else works on my jobs. So there will be minimum change when my working hours go back to 5 days, they'll pay me more but i'll do more. My point was that it really probably doesn't cost any more or any less, in my situation.

I dunno, presumably the company employs you as you turn a profit? It costs them X per day to employ you, but the goods or services you produce earn them X+Y.

So if they employ you 5 days a week, they earn 5Y a week. If you drop to 4 days, they've lost one Y worth of profit....they're not spending as much, but they're not making as much either...so there is a cost there.

Flexible working has pros and cons and is more suitable to some environments than others. I find that this is often approached largely from the "me, myself, I" perspective rather than the team or company perspective (ok appreciate that theses can and should be aligned) but I find flexible working is often a major PITA for others - a fact that is easily overlooked.

If your or your colleages work equipment involves no more than a PC and it is a major PITA if someone works from home then your company has too many meetings involving too many people and/or the senior management have control issues.

Having a significant proportion of people who are not always available in the office drives good behavious from the people that are.

Obviously all bets are off if the work you do is more tangible but most office work isn't.

dunno, presumably the company employs you as you turn a profit? It costs them X per day to employ you, but the goods or services you produce earn them X+Y.

So if they employ you 5 days a week, they earn 5Y a week. If you drop to 4 days, they've lost one Y worth of profit....they're not spending as much, but they're not making as much either...so there is a cost there.

Yes sort of, there will always be a payoff some where but assuming i work an extra few hours in the 4 days i work, they are getting something for free. When I go back to 5 days I could justifiably only work the hours i'm paid for. At the moment i work extra as i need to because i don't want to be swamped the next week. So it's never quite as simple as a+b=c.

Like i said earlier it won't always work in all environments but peoples needs change through their lives and this ruling gives people more of a chance to accommodate the changes. These changes could be child care, but could also be looking after a sick partner or relative or just looking after their own mental health. Flexible working is something that could really help some people but at the moment lots of people don't know it exists and lots of company's are in the dark ages when it comes to employee welfare and modern life.

I think most people doing a 4 day week are as productive as if they were doing 5 days a week, so the company just gets the same work done for 80% of the cost.....

If your or your colleages work equipment involves no more than a PC and it is a major PITA if someone works from home then your company has too many meetings involving too many people and/or the senior management have control issues.

Thanks for the advice. Actually engaging brains and talking to each other helps. But I will bear my control issues in mind! Having wasted lots of time this week already negotiating a plethora of flexi- time arrangements, I will also stick by my own judgement all the same.

[quote=footflaps ]I think most people doing a 4 day week are as productive as if they were doing 5 days a week, so the company just gets the same work done for 80% of the cost.....

I reckon that relatively speaking I got about 4.5 days work done for 4 days pay.

I think most people doing a 4 day week are as productive as if they were doing 5 days a week, so the company just gets the same work done for 80% of the cost.....

Depends entirely on what the job is.

In 4 days, I would get 4 days work done.

Those wanting 3 days week will say they can do 4 days work yet deliver 100% effort saving the company even more.

Looking into the future ... looking into crystal ball ...

Companies will then have to redesign the entire structure to deal with flexi-hr because which employees do not want one eh? I would.

In order to deal with flexi demand companies will move towards "earn as you work" kind of/similar to zero hour contract with others being assigned as "contractors". Yes, if HR wants then HR will find a way. Not difficult to be frank. Outsource the rest to individual contractors so you work where ever and when ever you like. As for job security etc you are on your own.

Otherwise, they cannot compete with other low cost companies all over.

😈

True, but there is a lot of evidence that more hours does not increase productivity. A nice summary here: http://www.salon.com/2012/03/14/bring_back_the_40_hour_work_week/

Also, another take on the 4 day week, from a different persective: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jul/01/uk-four-day-week-combat-stress-top-doctor

NB I worked 4 days a week for about a year, but figured I was still doing 5 days worth, just paid less. Ended up going back full time.

Those wanting 3 days week will say they can do 4 days work yet deliver 100% effort saving the company even more.

If folk can live on 3/5ths of their current salary and the company is happy for them to do so then why not? Who says that work has to be 9 till 5 (or 8 till 6) five days a week?

Companies will then have to redesign the entire structure to deal with flexi-hr because which employees do not want one eh? I would

So this is something you actually want, but you're against it?

GrahamS - Member
If folk can live on 3/5ths of their current salary and the company is happy for them to do so then why not? Who says that work has to be 9 till 5 (or 8 till 6) five days a week?

If that is the case then the job can be outsourced or reduce the day on contract accordingly. I seriously doubt some works can be cramped into or adjust at will to fit the employees, yes some can but not all.

So this is something you actually want, but you're against it?

I am on zero hr contract yet I am doing as much as those on "flexi-hr". 🙄 Shouldn't they be on zero hour contract as I do?

9am was pretty tough??? What happened? Did you have a 4 hr commute? My heart bleeds for you. Most mollycoddled post ever, I'm afraid.

Circadian Rythms, everyone's is different. Homo Sapiens never evolved to wake up everyday to get into work at 9.00am. Hunter Gatherers also only worked about 2.5 days per week.

[img] [/img]

If that is the case then the job can be outsourced or reduce the day on contract accordingly. I seriously doubt some works can be cramped into or adjust at will to fit the employees, yes some can but not all.

I'm not cramping mine into anything. If my flexible working application is approved then I'll just move from 39hrs/five days to 32hrs/four days.

I am on zero hr contract yet I am doing as much as those on "flexi-hr". Shouldn't they be on zero hour contract as I do?

Sorry but that sounds like your criticism is simply down to jealousy.

Why should someone in my situation be put on a zero hour contract when all I want to do is drop a day? There is plenty of work for me to do.

If my flexible working application is approved then I'll just move from 39hrs/five days to 32hrs/four days.

good luck. best thing I ever did.

Thanks jam bo, it was the experiences of you and others on here that helped me make the decision to do it.

GrahamS - Member
Sorry but that sounds like your criticism is simply down to jealousy.

😆 I am in no way jealous as this is one thing I can never be - jealous. Not in my life. You can have all the cash in the world yet it makes no difference to me.

In fact from a competitive stand point if this turn into full flow compulsory law, UK industry will definitely be digging herself into deeper hole. Does not affect me much ...

Why should someone in my situation be put on a zero hour contract when all I want to do is drop a day? There is plenty of work for me to do.

If the company continues to value you then you have no problem but once the company loses their competitive edge then there is such possibility.

😮

[quote=chewkw ]I am in no way jealous as this is one thing I can never be - jealous.

No, not at all:

[quote=chewkw ]I am on zero hr contract yet I am doing as much as those on "flexi-hr". Shouldn't they be on zero hour contract as I do?

Thanks jam bo, it was the experiences of you and others on here that helped me make the decision to do it.

bear in mind also, depending on the tax bracket you are in, its not in real terms a 20% paycut, more like 15-16%