That well-known white protestant SNP MSP Humza Yousef
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You want a white protestant viewpoint?
http://www.scotsman.com/news/orange-order-mobilise-to-defend-union-1-1361741
[quote=robbespierre ]I find this concentration on the financial implications a bit depressing and pointless. Politicians on both sides will represent/misrepresent the economic situation to suit their own argument. And the electorate are then left to decide, purely illogically, on whom they believe.
You don't divorce your wife (or husband) purely on the basis that you will be a few pounds a week better off. Equally Scotland shouldn't decide to leave the UK purely on the basis of whether we will be a few pounds better or worse off.
I will be voting NO because I am very happy to be Scottish and British.
You will always be British, no matter what happens in 2014 (well - unless a rUK PM finally manages to get Englandandwales dragged across to the East Coast of the US.)
But I agree with the rest of your sentiment. Many folk have put forward their view that a society governed by Holyrood would be a different/better one that we currently have. Much of the financial argument on this thread has been put up to counter the "too wee, too poor, too stupid" mantra of the Unionists but it should not be the only consideration.
Yup. The importance of the financial argument is feasibility not profitability- it's great that we will come out ahead, but the real question was just whether or not it would be financial disaster.
Course, we've established that it won't be but lots of people refuse to believe it, so now we should probably be moving on from the financial argument, to the financial convincing.
The SNP are a bunch of racists
The SNP rep that's come round doing door to door work amuses me.
Starts of all cheery and positive, I say something and its like he's just lost bowel control. Can't get away fast enough.
I quite like the fact it's the same guy but he forgets.
Last time he came round (3rd time) I kept quiet for ages. Might try blagging a Scottish accent if there's a fourth visit.
[quote=piemonster ]
Starts of all cheery and positive, I say something and its like he's just lost bowel control. Can't get away fast enough.
Deuchars Caley causes mystic ex-pat halitosis?
Course, we've established that it won't be but lots of people refuse to believe it, so now we should probably be moving on from the financial argument, to the financial convincing.
I'd like someone to explain to me what the SNP think the currency will be that would be in use after independence. That's what this thread started with, and I still haven't seen a convincing answer.
What I've seen so far suggests they don't want to discuss that topic because they don't very much like the answer themselves.
However, I suspect I won't get a straight answer.
Orkney Ale thank you very much
[quote=oldnpastit ]
I'd like someone to explain to me what the SNP think the currency will be that would be in use after independence. That's what this thread started with, and I still haven't seen a convincing answer.
What I've seen so far suggests they don't want to discuss that topic because they don't very much like the answer themselves.
However, I suspect I won't get a straight answer.
The SNP think the currency will be the Pound Sterling. That's your straight answer right there. It's not a mystery and has been SNP policy for over two years. It's been discussed several times in this thread already.
he SNP think the currency will be the Pound Sterling. That's your straight answer right there. It's not a mystery and has been SNP policy for over two years. It's been discussed several times in this thread already.
I guess I'm going to have to be disappointed then.
They can't promise to have a full currency union with the rest of the UK. We've all seen the disaster that the Eurozone has become because of a lack of any kind of political union. So a full currency union would require a political union to work. That in turn requires agreement on *both* sides. I don't see how the SNP can promise that the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland will agree up-front to something that might suit the SNP and yet hasn't even been discussed.
The alternative is that they just use sterling in the way that Panama uses the dollar. Scotland would then have as much control over the currency as Panama gets over the dollar - i.e. none whatsoever.
So, which of these choices do the SNP think they are going to adopt? Both are pretty dreadful, and in comparison, a new currency (c.f. Norway) seems pretty tempting.
But I don't think I'll get an answer to this question. Maybe I've just made it too long for the interwebs to understand?
[quote=oldnpastit ]
So, which of these choices do the SNP think they are going to adopt?..... I don't think I'll get an answer to this question. Maybe I've just made it too long for the interwebs to understand?
The SNP think the currency will be the Pound Sterling.
The Yes campaign and a number of independent analysts have already pointed out that it would be in the interest of the rUK to share a currency with an independent Scotland. But you're right - a rUK government could decide not to enter a currency union out of spite. I guess that an informal currency union might then be adopted, much as Australia, New Zealand, RoI and others did. Or maybe a post-independence Scottish Govt will decide to take a different approach. There's no guarantee that the SNP will remain in power for ever or will always have the same policies. Perhaps a currency union with Norway would be on the cards?
You don't need a political union to use another countries currency.
But you're right - a rUK government could decide not to enter a currency union out of spite
Pre-referendum I expect this to be laid out as a likely eventuality.
Post-referendum not a chance. Business comes first.
[i]The alternative is that they just use sterling in the way that Panama uses the dollar. Scotland would then have as much control over the currency as Panama gets over the dollar - i.e. none whatsoever.[/i]
And maybe that'll be fine, might even work out cheaper overall as there would be no 'cost to change'.
I think they should create their own currency, using historical examples.
I bloody love the idea of paying for something with a Half-Unicorn.
You don't need a political union to use another country's currency.
...provided you're happy for that other country to ignore your needs. For example, if you find that you need to print a lot of money in a hurry to sort out your banks, or cut interest rates because your economy is in the doldrums, you would be out of luck. That other country has absolutely no reason to oblige you. You'll just have to hope they do it out of the kindness of their hearts.
EDIT: Independent currency seems most believable to me.
No you don't need political union to use another countries currency. But who would voluntarily enter into a currency agreement with a country who's government is presently going to be regarding you as, at best, a right royal PITA? I wouldn't be expecting any favours.
But there's always the Euro option. That's worked out really well for smaller countries on the peripheries so far. Either way, if the scots think their economic priorities will be getting anything more than cursory consideration in any monetary union, they're delusional! Independence would inevitably lead to considerably less influence over economic policy, really
The ironing!
WOw it took you 5 pages I never knew you had such levels of self restraint 😉
piemonster - MemberPre-referendum I expect this to be laid out as a likely eventuality.
Post-referendum not a chance. Business comes first.
Yup. Likely we'll run into what I think of as Independence Bullshit- the No campaign will demand hard facts on what will happen post-independence. Westminster will refuse to provide the same and instead will furnish us with scare stories. No campaign will pretend this is an argument against independence when the reality is it's another black mark against the UK government for resorting to dirty tricks.
The key question you need to ask about sterling-without-union is whether you expect UK-Minus-Scotland's intentions for the pound to be significantly different from Scotland's. It doesn't seem likely to me, our economies are so linked and interdependent that what's good for the goose will generally be good for the gander.
In the longer term, further changes are possible of course- the euro might conceivably un**** itself, or we might switch to a midge-based economy.
[quote=piemonster]
Starts of all cheery and positive, I say something and its like he's just lost bowel control. Can't get away fast enough.
Deuchars Caley causes mystic ex-pat halitosis?
* Sorry - I couldn't let that one lanquish at the bottom of page 4.
Bugger off
I wonder what you'd get for a Unicorn anyway?
Is that like an iPhone?
my fellow 'Scots' .... say I'm an Englishman, and I tell them there is no such thing as English, Welsh, Scots etc as we all share the same passport.
You're confusing nationality and citizenship.
You don't divorce your wife (or husband) purely on the basis that you will be a few pounds a week better off. Equally Scotland shouldn't decide to leave the UK purely on the basis of whether we will be a few pounds better or worse off....I will be voting NO because I am very happy to be Scottish and British.
I would like to see a refocussing of all like minded UK citizens on a clearer and better identity for the UK/Britain.
On the contrary - if you make a decision on what form the state should take, you should make it for concrete reasons like economic development - not flagwaving romantic bollocks (in either direction).
The SNP are a bunch of racists. It's subtle, but it's there. That whole thread of "Scottishness" that runs through their policies is a very white protestant highland view of Scotland. They said it couldn't happen in Germany.
This is a lot of bollocks.
I have a flat in Edinburgh...If independence is voted in and the big companies go back to London, all the South of England folk who live up here will sell their property and head back to the Home Counties.
This is fair enough but I think it's misplaced. There's no particular reason why all the big companies will go back to London (which companies moved from London to Edinburgh in the first place?) - it's not going to be any cheaper or more expensive to administer rUK business from an indepedent Scotland than it is from a union Scotland. It's not like Austrian companies don't have business in Germany or vice versa.
The alternative is that they just use sterling in the way that Panama uses the dollar. Scotland would then have as much control over the currency as Panama gets over the dollar - i.e. none whatsoever.
Why do you think that is such a bad idea? It just reduces investors' costs and political risk, and reduces politicians' scope for buggering around with the economy.
In any case, is it really true that Scottish economic needs would be that different from rUK's? Scotland is like a microcosm of the rUK economy: there's financial and professional services, high and low tech exports, and economic baskets cases all together. It's not like Nireland trying to go independent.
But who would voluntarily enter into a currency agreement with a country who's government is presently going to be regarding you as, at best, a right royal PITA?
A currency agreement is unncessary.
Deuchars Caley causes mystic ex-pat halitosis?
Very good 😀
Yup. Likely we'll run into what I think of as Independence Bullshit- the No campaign will demand hard facts on what will happen post-independence.
If we're being realistic, both sides will be spreading [i]Independence Bullshit[/i], and thickly.
mogrim - MemberIf we're being realistic, both sides will be spreading Independence Bullshit, and thickly.
Yup, but there's bullshit and then there's Bullshit. Demanding something from the other side of an argument while withholding the information they need to respond, then blaming them when they can't, that's Bullshit.
No: Hey, what are we doing on friday night?
Yes: I don't know, I asked you if you fancy going to that restaurant but you never answered- we're all waiting for you to decide.
No: God, you're such a disorganised prick! Can't trust you with anything!
Or:
Yes: Hey, do you want to go to that restaurant?
No: No, I've checked with David Cameron and the only thing on the menu is dog poo sandwiches
Yes: That's rubbish! There's no chance they'll even offer that never mind serve it, it'd be mad
No: Dog poo sandwiches! You want to eat dog poo sandwiches!
Deuchars Caley causes mystic ex-pat halitosis?
Very good
🙁
The "we will keep the pound" idea shows how poorly thought out these arguments are. The notion of independence is to have control over your own affairs by definition. To ignore this basic premise and accept what would be in effect a currency union without control of monetary or fiscal policy is mere folly. We want independence from Westminster, sorry, but can you still set our interest rates etc?????
How many years have they been thinking about this, or was it a knee-jerk to the idea that the € was a little more complicated than first thought?
The "we will keep the pound" idea shows how poorly thought out these arguments are. The notion of independence is to have control over your own affairs by definition.
That kind of sovereignty has been dead for years, if it ever existed. Capital controls markets, and capital is stateless.
True, but a different point, if related point surely?
True, but a different point, if related point surely?
No. 😀
So presumably if we don't use the pound, then Scotland gets its share of the reserves of the Bank of England just like it will be taking its share of the national debt.
I think for that reason alone the rUK will want to keep us in a currency union.
But I'm quite happy to have our own currency or the Euro and I don't think it's a big deal.
Reserves of the Bank of England? Are there any? I imagine them opening a mahooosive safe to reveal a Greggs pasty, half a packet of fags, and a few empty Cans of Stella
Okay we'll take the fags you can have the pasty:-)
Just for the record, I believe a Unicorn to be worth something in the region of £612.80
Internerd says so so fact innit
I'd be checking the Stella cans, they not might all be opened.
Or dare I say it, empty.
