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Professor Matt would love my road. Some of the old boys still use house coal on their open fires.
I think it smells quite nice.
It's not great if you're asthmatic, most of my neighbours have wood burners and on a still day it's a bit unpleasant. I assume particulates are a big issue with even the best wood burners? must be better than coal but that's not saying much.
Incidentally removal of EGR or DPF is another blind spot many people have...
Another one to add to the list of things you're not supposed to question the environmental impacts of on STW:
1. Eating meat.
2. Pets (particularly dogs).
3. Wood burning stoves.
If you are responsible at least check the local authority smoke free zones before you install a wood burner, the 1956 clean air act wasn't just brought into force for the hell of it
Pretty much all wood burners are permitted in smoke free zones now as their emissions are low enough (we live in one and have a fire).
Another one to add to the list of things you're not supposed to question the environmental impacts of on STW:
You're forgetting children, who will consume far more resources than any stove / SUV / dog ever will throughout their life.
Stoner - your mate could do well to read the chimney heights memorandum - that part of the clean air act certainly does differentiate between urban and rural areas and fuel sulphur content, otherwise a pretty balanced article and to be fair he is concentrating on the domestic side of things
Footflaps - depends on what fuel you burn, check with your local authority to be sure
You're forgetting children, who will consume far more resources than any stove / SUV / dog ever will throughout their life.
Are you seriously suggesting people shouldn't be having children?
It will certainly reduce our carbon emissions but what will we do in 50 years time?
I think the biggest part of the problem is people not using them right and that probably accounts for a large proportion of lifestyle users. People who actually have a need to use them due to no other fuel supply are more likely to use them correctly as they want to minimise fuel burn.
Now I have no doubt the wood burning conosiurs of stw all use the correct seasoned wood and have air vents and baffles all set for optimum burn but what about dick head down the road who throws in any old crap, including plastic, and hasn't got a clue how to actually set it?
This is quite a contrast to cars, power stations and domestic gas boilers which are tightly controlled to burn clean.
I did read somewhere that in this country we are now consuming more wood for burning than at any other time since the industrial revolution and that really can't be good no matter what kind of spin you try and put on it.
gobuchul - MemberAre you seriously suggesting people shouldn't be having children?
no, he's not.
but i'm sure he'll thankyou for proving his point.
meat
stove
dogs
kids
all off-limits with regards environmental consideration.
([s]we all[/s] most of us agree that we should fly less to save the planet, few will question that logic. But suggest that maybe a [i]hypothetical[/i] couple might think about stopping at 2 kids, for the sake of the planet, and you're heartless psycho.)
Are you seriously suggesting people shouldn't be having children?
I'm merely pointing out that everyone seems to overlook the fact that the single most selfish thing that people do, in terms of the damaging the environment is to have children. I realise this is what is known as an 'uncomfortable truth'.
Basically, once you've had kids you've guaranteed such a huge environmental impact that whether you buy an SUV, recycle or have a log burner is in the noise.
Footflaps - depends on what fuel you burn, check with your local authority to be sure
All modern wood burners are absolutely fine. You're about 30 years behind the times.
I'm merely pointing out that everyone seems to overlook the fact that the single most selfish thing that people do, in terms of the damaging the environment is to have children. I realise this is what is known as an 'uncomfortable truth'.
But that's making a rather large value judgement/assumption that humanity has no place on planet earth? Also, what population are you looking across? The 'indigenous' populations of Europe are probably reproducing at less than replacement rate?
I think the biggest part of the problem is people not using them right and that probably accounts for a large proportion of lifestyle users. People who actually have a need to use them due to no other fuel supply are more likely to use them correctly as they want to minimise fuel burn.
Does trying to keep my house warm without running my boiler make me a 'lifestyle user'?
If so, I'm guilty as charged 😯 :lol:. I have an endless supply of free wood washed up on the beach on a daily basis, a days cutting will keep me going for a fair bit.
Though I really should think of my chainsaw emissions. 😆
I'm merely pointing out that everyone seems to overlook the fact that the single most selfish thing that people do, in terms of the damaging the environment is to have children.
I think the 'panda and tiger penis' burner I recently installed in our 4th holiday home on the coral reef is more of a travesty to nature, TBH... 😉
DrP
just remembered we've done this one!
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-we-done-stoves-the-environmental-cost
anyway - surely in terms of fire-related pollution issues, the garden bonfire should be well ahead of the stove in the banning queue? That pile of damp logs and leaves probably counts for months worth of fires in a decent modern stove....
what about BBQs? How bad are they?
But that's making a rather large value judgement/assumption that humanity has no place on planet earth?
At the current rate of progress I think mankind will wipe itself out at some point in the next few 100 years, so the argument is largely academic.
.Does trying to keep my house warm without running my boiler make me a 'lifestyle user'?
There we go, woodburnerist in flounce mode.
Let's just ignore 90% of what was written and go for the "but poor me is only trying to heat my home with all this free wood I get" 🙄
No flounce here fella, I'm basking in the warm glow of my lifestyle choices! 😆
We use a log burner most days and as it saves heating the whole house via CH, I suspect it's more energy efficient than using the boiler (they're both supposedly 80%+ efficient).
Footflaps - woodburners aren't magic but then again you knew that didn't you?
Footflaps - woodburners aren't magic but then again you knew that didn't you?
I honestly have no idea what you're on about...
However, I do know I'm in a smokeless zone and the Local BC were quite happy to sign off my log burner (along with quite a few neighbours who also have them).
.We use a log burner most days and as it saves heating the whole house via CH, I suspect it's more energy efficient than using the boiler (they're both supposedly 80%+ efficient).
Which leads in to a valid point: a lot of it comes down to how each heating method is used in a certain application.
Some people don't have access to mains gas, some people have old difficult to heat houses and just want to heat one room they are in most of the time, some people have back boilers fitted and it powers their house as they don't have gas and don't want oil etc etc. There are still plenty of valid reasons for legitimate use but there is also an increasing amount of lifestyle users who just do so as it's trendy and whose sole motivation for doing so is selfish and with no real need.
The flouncing nobeerinthefridgeasitdoesntwashuplikemyfreewood 😉 just states he his heating is house via his wood burner despite having a boiler. No justification despite there potentially being a perfectly valid reason, just I am doing this, end of. Hence me declaring it a flounce 😛
I think nobeerinthefridge can justifies the use of his burner by the fact he runs it on driftwood. Seems completely green to me.
It's not really though is it? It's just free. If a load of tyres washed up on the beach should i burn those as they are free?
It's not really though is it?
Well it's just going to rot and release carbon that way.
He has to heat his house with something so he may as well use the driftwood. Especially if he burns it to STW standards and not like Joe Public who doesn't understand the subtleties of the top and bottom vent balance. 🙂
but there is also an increasing amount of lifestyle users who just do so as it's trendy and whose sole motivation for doing so is selfish and with no real need.
But is burning wood (which is a renewable) really more selfish than burning oil / gas CH (which isn't renewable)?
NB With Ash die back, we're going to have a lot of wood going spare in the next 20 years.
Some people don't have access to mains gas, some people have old difficult to heat houses and just want to heat one room they are in most of the time, some people have back boilers fitted and it powers their house as they don't have gas and don't want oil etc etc. There are still plenty of valid reasons for legitimate use but there is also an increasing amount of lifestyle users who just do so as it's trendy and whose sole motivation for doing so is selfish and with no real need.
...although one could probably argue that a lot of those 'legitimate uses' aren't all that legit, if we were to go full SanctimonyTrackWorld about it.
If you're a farmer then fair enough (perhaps) but those who just decided to go and live out in the wilds because it's nice, well that's just as much of a 'lifestyle choice' is it not?
😉
such is the problem with the kind of absolutist moralising we get on here. We could all sell our cars, changing jobs and downsizing if needs be, and clothe our children in charity shop garb, if we were really serious about the environment. Beyond that you just have to make your peace i guess...
and clothe our children in charity shop garb, if we were really serious about the environment
Too late if you've had kids, their impact will dwarf any steps you undertake to make yourself feel better..
gobuchul - Member
Well it's just going to rot and release carbon that way.
there's a lot more to 'clean' than CO2.
Footflaps - fair enough, and it is the local authority I am having a go at here, just because bc have signed it off as safe it doesn't make it legal to burn anything you want on it in a smokeless zone, in fact it could at the very extreme end not be legal to use it, still doesn't stop bc from signing it off though :-S
Footflaps - fair enough, and it is the local authority I am having a go at here, just because bc have signed it off as safe it doesn't make it legal to burn anything you want on it in a smokeless zone, in fact it could at the very extreme end not be legal to use it, still doesn't stop bc from signing it off though :-S
Well yes, I could only burn plastic on it, but I'm pretty sure most people just burn wood in their wood burners....
NB pretty much any new wood burner will be certified for use in Smokeless areas as they all burn much cleaner than older designs. When we looked at which one to buy, they were 100s to chose from.
BN12 pah... wrong side of the Adur, never trust anything from the wrong side of the Adur 😆
(went back to look over WHO figures)
In 2012 they calculated 600,000 Africans died from particulates because of domestic solid fuel use. High earning europe was aprox 18,000 deaths - In Europe about the same as road deaths.
Having lived in NZ where they actually have a rather forward thinking policy on wood stoves.
Live in an urban area and want to replace a wood stove? I must be an ultra efficient one.
Want to install a new wood stove where there was non before? Not a chance.
This is where there is arguably much more need for a wood stove too - no mains gas for gas boilers and central heating, earthquakes likely to knock out infrastructure and electricity supply....
They've lived through decades of poor air quality and are trying to clean it up now.
We've been through the same a generation ago, with smog, towns covered in coal fired haze, poor health and an asthma epidemic. Now the new generation want a lifestyle choice of axes, beards and log burners.*
Some links for the bored:
http://www.mfe.govt.nz/air/home-heating-and-authorised-wood-burners/about-list-authorised-woodburners-and-requirements
https://www.mfe.govt.nz/air/home-heating-and-authorised-wood-burners/burners
http://www.pce.parliament.nz/media/pdfs/The-state-of-air-quality-in-New-Zealand-web5.pdf
*flamebait, not to be taken seriously.
We've been through the same a generation ago, with smog, towns covered in coal fired haze, poor health and an asthma epidemic
But, to be fair, there is a huge different between a whole city relying on house coal for its heating and cooking, and a few trendy beardies getting in touch with their "inner man" by using woodburners as a lifestyle accessory.
My point is that it isn't a few wood burners that create a problem so much as the millions of cars and power stations. Getting rid of them would clean up the air but that's not popular is it. After all how would people get their bikes to the trail centres and what would power the jet washers and fancy coffee machines?
Banning open fires is the same as moving into the countryside and then complaining about the cow muck that covers the field next door. Its the new that's wrong not the old.
I have an endless supply of free wood washed up on the beach on a daily basis
I've read that the salt in drift wood corrodes the stove. Do you have any experience of this?
Well it's just going to rot and release carbon that way.
AAARGH
I'll say again, decomposition = slow release. Burning = fast release. Decomposition =/= burning.
MrsBouys been thinking about putting a small burner in her workshop, she's plenty of wood for the fire, but now considering binning the idea in favour of an oil fired burner..
But we have two log burners in the main farm houses, they're both in rural locations on the edge of the Yorks Moors but still you can see the smoke from them especially if the woods a bit damp.
..
Is this a bad time to ask if anyone needs any wood I've got a lot of scrap pallet crates here I've been drying out.
Nobeerinthefridge not anywhere near Weston super mare are you? Feel like I should give you first dibs for giving you a hard time 😉
I have it all stacked like a bonfire but no intention of burning it, just drying it out so if it's all suitable anyone is welcome to come collect. But you must promise to burn it properly not like so e lifestyle woodburnerist Muppet and take any left over metal brackets to the recycling centre 😉
Plan is to take mosr down to the tip but I have a feeling they will accuse me of dumping trade quantities.
No thanks Andy, I'm about 8 hours drive from WSM and the diesel fumes I'd create could be an issue for those weaker-of-chest type souls. 😀
My point is that it isn't a few wood burners that create a problem so much as the millions of cars and power stations. Getting rid of them would clean up the air but that's not popular is it.
I can't provide a reference for this as it's from memory, from an exhibit in Te Papa, the National Museum in NZ. It's a fantastic museum and well worth a trip. Anyway, an exhibit on air quality and what NZ is doing about it.
They monitored the airborne pollutants in lots of places and found that in winter, upwards of 75% of some size of particulate (PM10? Total Suspended Particulates? not sure) in lots of in major cities (in particular, ChCh) were of the type produced by domestic stoves.
Not industry, not cars, but 75% of that smog was from wood burning stoves.
Nbitf kind of makes sense! I had to abreviate as my phone now auto corrects your name to the really long version.
But is burning wood (which is a renewable) really more selfish than burning oil / gas CH (which isn't renewable)?
Someone posted an interesting article on here last time this was discussed. Sorry I don't have it to hand, but the authors pointed out that while wood can theoretically be carbon neutral (if you ignore the distribution, etc impact) gas can be carbon negative. This is because gas produces around half the CO2 of wood for the same heat output. So you offset the gas by growing trees, but because you only have to plant half as many trees (compared to wood) you can use the saved space to plant more trees and take out some existing atmospheric CO2. If you use the harvested wood for building materials, insulation, etc, you have sequestered more C02 than you produced from the gas in the first place, hence carbon negative. The article was written by two people who have wood burning stoves. They liked burning wood, but admitted it's not the best energy solution from an environmental point of view.