[Closed] F1: Is this an new classic rivalry in the making?

Could be - Alonso at Ferrari for a good while now and Hamilton likely to stick at McLaren so long as they keep delivering. Reckon that if they sort out the cars so that they can overtake, then we'll be in for some good racing...

yes i think so. can't wait for next year! Throw massa in to the mix to get in the way and throw his dummy out every now and then and there should be some interesting times ahead. loved Alonso's comment that they are both latin-blooded... and that should make them work better together. Surely it just makes the arguments louder and the tantrums bigger?

Don't forget Raikonnen, possibly back at McLaren...
I'm a bit worried that banning refuelling wihout any other changes that might aid overtaking might make it more processional though.

Yeah, but from a longer term view I just don't see Raikonnen sticking with F1.

Ditto your worry MrS

Re refuelling. Who knows, but maybe it could go the other way, given that at the moment they sit there doing sums to try and get the driver back out onto a clear track with no other cars around. I really hope Raikonnen goes back to McLaren, so that between them he and Hamilton can just shove it right up Alonso.

Who knows, but maybe it could go the other way, given that at the moment they sit there doing sums to try and get the driver back out onto a clear track with no other cars around.

That's true, but I think I'd prefer that to everybody playing the long game with their fuel and tyres- seems like it could just be more like everybody doing their own thing for 60 laps and then all coming together at the end.

Will they still have to use different tyres in the race or is that going too?

As long as Ferarri & Mclaren come up with good cars it should be fun

We're also likely to get Rosberg in a Brawn, I think he'll have the measure of Button & if the Brawn is on the pace - next year is going to be hard to call

Will they still have to use different tyres in the race

AFAIK - yes

Vettel and Red Bull could/should be right up there too... so I don't see it becoming a Prost/Senna type thing, because the 2 "best" guys aren't going to have it all their own way.

.....at the moment they sit there doing sums to try and get the driver back out onto a clear track with no other cars around

Only to a certain degree if things aren't working out for the 2nd stops
If they start the car with 18 laps of fuel on board - you can be pretty sure that they'll be in about then - there's usually no point coming in early & no chance of staying out any longer

I haven't seen anything to suggest that rule is scrapped for next year, although I think the spinners might be.

Was it about 1993 when refuelling came in? I'm sure it was less processional in those days. Or I'm just being nostalgic. My first memory of F1 was being allowed to stay up really late to watch the Aus GP when Mansell's tyre blew up near the end, mid 80's sometime I think.

I think (hope) it will make them race more like thegreatape says they wont just be putting in a couple of hot laps around the pit stops. I know they cant really go totally flat out for the whole race but now the cars will be going faster and faster as they get lighter and that combined with differing grip from the tyres should make for a nice building race where the last few laps are a frenzy of hopeful overtaking moves.

Qualifying is obviously going to be with empty tanks so we'll get a true pointer as to who is the fastest on any particular track by Saturday afternoon rather than having to rely on trying to compare Q2 times with Q3 & deducting time for fuel loads.

I'm not sure as banning refuelling will make the racing anymore exciting - IIRC when it was banned back in the 80's for the first season or so it was extremely processional. Cutting down on the aerodynamic/electronic aids etc etc would be the more sensible way IMHO.

I'd take the brakes off them [obviously not entirely] 😆

braking @ 60m from the corner from 200mph doesn't leave a lot of room for anyone to out-brake you
Make them brake from a lot further back & it'll get a lot more interesting

Drum brakes? 😉

Steel discs like they use in indy car

yeah give them some 4 leading shoe drumies 😆

...and what about not staging races at tracks where there is no chance of overtaking e.g. Monaco or Valencia

Valencia?, get rid of that - Monaco?, you'll burn in hell sir

I'd take the brakes off them [obviously not entirely]

braking @ 60m from the corner from 200mph doesn't leave a lot of room for anyone to out-brake you
Make them brake from a lot further back & it'll get a lot more interesting

IIRC there's a bit of dissent about allowing thicker discs/pads/whatever in light of the heavier fuel loads, so maybe some people will be out of brakes come the last laps anyway!

I liked it without refuelling (was brought back in 94, thegreatape). Prost was a master of working out when to go fast and when to go slow to get the best from his tyres and fuel. There was always that worry about whether a driver was going fast but using too much fuel.

With the aim to be pretty much empty when they get back to the pits at the end of the race, it could well be fun.

And the weight of the car will change more significantly from start to finish, affecting handling. Some will set their cars up to go (relatively) better when heavy som ewhen the car is light. The problem at the moment is there isn't enough change in the car start to finish - bring back turbos (with small fuel tanks and no re-fuelling, so you can't use full boost all the time)

The turbo era often had 7, 8, 9 or more seconds per lap difference between the cars - it is fondly remembered because it is selectively remembered.

One of the reasons why some of the more obvious "aids" such as carbon brakes and so on aren't banned outright comes from the fact that any changes like that don't just affect F1. Bear in mind that the FIA have a position (justified) that F1 is the pinnacle of motor-sport, ergo anything you do there do reduce performance has to be reflected in F3000, Formula Renault, Sport cars and so on all the way down to clubman racing.

OF course the rules could spec smaller carbon brakes, which would not last as long if you kept using them in the same way, and thereby force drivers to use longer gentler braking areas. Of course they might faile and lead to crashes, which while entertaining to watch, might be regarded as unsafe for drivers and spectators a like.

No refuelling is a bit of a nonsense if you ask me other than we could get the situation that we had last time they did this and cars running out of fuel on the last lap. Funny to watch but frustrating for the drivers. I don't think it is good for racing personally.

They could keep carbon brakes but reduce the pressure allowed - there's all sorts of ways
To my mind the best overtaking occurs into corners so that's where they need to look at making the rules to create the opportunities

there's usually no point coming in early

braking @ 60m from the corner from 200mph doesn't leave a lot of room for anyone to out-brake you
Make them brake from a lot further back & it'll get a lot more interesting

I agree with uplink.

I don't think drivers should be forced to save the car. I'm all for reducing the power of the brakes but they should last the race. If you made braking distances 100m rather than 60, you would have much more chance of making up a car length under braking.

Hamilton is too reckless to be classed as an all-time great driver imo

Its too early to say if Hamilton is and all-time great seeing as he's only just finishing his 3rd season!

He's certainly exciting to watch, and I'd rather see a driver pushing like he did in Imola than one who sits back and collects the points.

Re the cars - IMO they are far to reliable nowadays. The random element of leading cars engines blowing, gearboxes failing etc., has virtually been taken away.

Hamilton is too reckless to be classed as an all-time great driver imo

Alonso is already in the truly great category, whereas Hamilton is headed that way. This era's battle of the young guns is between LH and SV.

Hamilton is too reckless to be classed as an all-time great driver imo

You're kidding right?

Alonso is already in the truly great category,

My bestmate thinks Mika and Alonso picked up their championships when Schu wasnt at his strongest apperently..

I personally dont rate alonso. If you can be beaten by a rookie team mate your either passing your talent window it or not a true great IMO. The way he tried handling Hamilton was off-track. Not good. Plus lets not forget he was the one on record threatening Mclaren to go public over Tapegate unless he got his deserved number1 status. Thats when Ron decided to come clean.

I dont rate him at all. When has Schu ever honked about a team mate or threatened/bad mouthed his team to the world?

I think more like Massa vs Alonso, Massa would do similar to Barrichello Vs Button.

Hamilton will obviously be a target for Alonso, I think this will be good for racing as a whole....

BUT THEN,

Whats the point of it all if the stewards ruin it all with in race / after race shenanigans that have spoilt this season to a degree ?

and what of Button?

and what of Button?

Nico Rosberg will give him something to think about

Uplink Why do you rate Rosberg so highly? Just out of interest?

Give Rosberg another 100+ GP starts and he too will one day be threatening for a championship like Button... 😉

I do rate Rosberg
He's ragged the arse of that Williams all year, scoring every single one of their points
He's got a great attitude & he fights like hell for every inch of track

He's looked a class act in a very average car

Uplink Why do you rate Rosberg so highly? Just out of interest?

Well either Nakajima really is that bad (I doubt it having got into F1 in the first place) and the williams is a pretty good car.

Or, the williams is a mediocre care and Rosberg is a stellar driver.

Either way, nowhere on the grid is there a bigger gap between two drivers in the same machine. And it's widely regarded that in the same car, most drivers would normally be within 3 tenths of each other. Which is why it is believed that Rosberg is potentially something special.

He'll be in a Brawn next year & - I believe - will have the measure of Button

Nakajima is only in the williams because of his passport and toyota engines.

I think that they should keep the refuelling rigs, always funny to see half the rig flying down the pitlane still attached to the car or a bit of a fire now and then!! 😈
They might as well get the teams to prepare the cars as they see fit but then draw straws before the start of each race to see which driver gets the ferrari or the force india. At least then the best drivers should stand out and the teams would still have a constructers trophy to battle for!

I read that william is despanding from toyota, so what engine will they have next year!!?

Renault probably but they're still looking at Cosworth

Everyone will have the measure of Button next year.

Now, I can see this partnership getting off to a flying start next year 😀

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/79435

Nakajima is only in the williams because of his passport and toyota engines.

So why not Sato? Who when BAR were doing ok managed an 8th overall in 2004? I accept Nakajima is not exactly a great driver but I personally think it's more about Rosberg out performing the car...

Frank Williams sums up Rosberg quite well

[i][b]""Nico is, on any three or five lap, he is the most exciting driver on the track. He digs himself out of some holes that we put him in some times - comes by three places up at the end of the first lap.

"He is single minded, chirpy, a little arrogant which is good - he is always very good with the promo people, never an objection, he is very good."[/i][/b]

I personally dont rate alonso. If you can be beaten by a rookie team mate your either passing your talent window it or not a true great IMO.

But if Hamilton is a "true great" then your argument falls apart doesn't it? And didn't Hamilton only beat him by one point in their time together at McLaren?

Know any other rookies up there in their first season?

I think the only rookie to come close to Hamilton would be Jackie Stewart
although I think John Surtees' rookie season was [arguably] the most impressive given he jumped off 2 wheels straight into a car

Know any other rookies up there in their first season?

I'm not saying Hmailton's no good, but if he's as great as you reckon then doesn't that make Alsonso just as good if there was only a point between them?