[Closed] F1 Grid Girls under review

scotroutes has form:

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/do-you-think-your-children-are-attractive-serious-thread

Junkyard - you must remember what the judge said last time you were stalking her?

What's the next target and where is the line? It seems to be that everything and every subject is under the microscope ..... and who's making money out of all this?

But the opportunity is there for women to be F1 drivers......

You don't understand the problem. There is one, you just don't get it.

Grid girls won't make me return to f1. But replacing the drivers with the grid girls might. Mmmm, boobies under g force.

Why is freely accessible porn acceptable to many posters, but grid girls on pay-to-view F1 not?

What's the next target and where is the line? It seems to be that everything and every subject is under the microscope ..... and who's making money out of all this?

Pregnant asthmatic fatties joining the Parachute Regiment, because....everyone should be given the right to kill brown people! 😀

[img] [/img]

Her majesties finest in 10 years time.

Pregnant asthmatic fatties joining the Parachute Regiment, because....everyone should be given the right to kill brown people!

Straw men can't jump.

not even on a slippery slope?

😆

not even on a slippery slope?

Why is freely accessible porn acceptable to many posters, but grid girls on pay-to-view F1 not?

In the analogy porn and F1 are the industries, that either is sexist isn't good.

That porn is far from perfect doesn't excuse F1. That would be whataboutism.

On a serious note Junkyard, this report

was loaded with gems like

Stress fractures. The rate of hip and pelvic stress fractures in men during the Combat
Infantryman’s Course (CIC) is 25.3 per 1000 trainees. The risk of hip and pelvic stress fractures to
women should they undertake the CIC is estimated to be 250 per 1000 trainees (or 1 in 4 female
Infantry trainees); this is an extrapolation and needs to be tested using modelling, based on a
representative sample of the 4.5% of service women capable of passing GCC training.

and

On operations, British female military personnel have a higher
rate of Disease Non-Battle Injury (DNBI) (tri-Service data: 72 per 1000 vs 52 per 1000), than men.
US female soldiers present with more ‘all cause injuries’ on operations than men, in spite of
performing less physical roles. Aerobic fitness decreases more rapidly on operations in US female
soldiers than in men. Women also present post-operationally with more injuries. More women
present to the medical services with mental health conditions, and British female military personnel
are more likely to be admitted for in-patient psychiatric care than men, reflecting the severity of
illness. The graph presents the rate of surviving UK Service Personnel DNBI casualties on Op
HERRICK by gender between 15 April 2007 (the start of HERRICK 6) and 10 June 2014 (the end
of HERRICK 19). The average rate of DNBI casualties on Op HERRICK was 72 per 1,000 females
compared to 52 per 1,000 males. With the exception of HERRICK 10, the rate of DNBI casualties
is higher in females than males for all other roulemont

On recent operations, British female personnel have approximately a
15-20% higher rate of disease non battle injury (DNBI) than their male counterparts.
These higher DNBI rates will be further exacerbated by findings from work on
survivability, that women may sustain a higher combat casualty rate than males, due
the a lower ratio of explosive power in relation to the combat load carried.

I'd love to know how much the army actually really wanted women in front line combat roles and how much of it was politically motivated.

Some women are nice to look at, this is a perfectly natural feeling and important to the continuation of our species - struggling to see a problem if all parties are happy and the women are well treated and compensated.

Some women as nice too look at, this is a perfectly natural feeling and important to the continuation of our species - struggling to see a problem if all parties are happy and the women are well treated and compensated.

Its a matter of context though. The message it sends out to fans is boys can be racing car drivers, girls can wear bikinis and look good for them.

Two wrongs wouldn't make it right but you don't see a bloke in Speedo's holding an sun umbrella and blowing kisses to the camera at female dominated sports do you?

edit - bin dun

I have no problem with it working the other way, I think it does now, male objectification seems to get a free pass these days.

It does not but it is starting to become more common

Some women are nice to look at, this is a perfectly natural feeling and important to the continuation of our species

no one is against people being pretty or the genders being attracted to one another or each other or however you wish to express your sexuality The objection is to where you express it,how and what message you send out when doing so

boys can be racing car drivers, girls can wear bikinis and look good for them

It's not a symmetrical situation. Congratulations on the self-awareness though:

[quote=g5604 ]struggling to see a problem

No it probably doesn't need to be in Motorsport, but it does make it more exciting / glamorous. I fear we are heading towards a very dull period of prudence

that word does not mean what you think it means.
I dont see how anyone thinks the ending of tacky exploitation at sports events will lead to anything other than the ending of tacky exploitation at sport events
Could you explain your reasons ?

It's only tacky to you because you think it is. It's like everything these days- people aren't happy just to hold a different opinion to somebody else! They seek to dominate and destroy anything they've decided falls the wrong side of their fundamentalist belief system.

The people who spend money on products that bring the sponsors to F1 must not find it tacky. Business is ruthless and it would be long gone if these companies thought it was harming their sales.

F1 is a global brand. It needs to appeal to blokes in countries where they don't yet have too many feremones in the water supply! 😆

And how is it exploitation? Can you explain your reasons?

Tacky? Exploitation? The grid girls want to be there because they want to cop off with a driver. That's objectification. They're objectifying the male drivers as being suitably attractive and wealthy to be seen with to further their own status. The young, fit, attractive and wealthy drivers should be banned too if the grid girls are; you can't have one rule for girls and another for men (gross generalisation based on most brolly dollies being female and most drivers being male in F1)

It's only tacky to you because you think it is

Business is ruthless and it would be long gone if these companies thought it was harming their sales

And how is it exploitation? Can you explain your reasons?

The grid girls want to be there because they want to cop off with a driver. That's objectification

Tacky? Exploitation? The grid girls want to be there because they want to cop off with a driver. That's objectification. They're objectifying the male drivers as being suitably attractive and wealthy to be seen with to further their own status. The young, fit, attractive and wealthy drivers should be banned too if the grid girls are; you can't have one rule for girls and another for men (gross generalisation based on most brolly dollies being female and most drivers being male in F1)

Not to mention they are being exploited to risk their lives for our entertainment.. If I had a daughter I think I'd prefer she was a grid girl then a racing driver, given the perils associated with with each.

Tbh I think it's more sexiest that people think the woman and getting exploited..it comes across that The poor darlings aren't able to make their own decisions or protect their own best interests.

This is page 3 - Why is it that some claim only Neanderthal charmless **** wit men with no social skills and low intellect enjoy them

I don't enjoy them, don't even watch motorsports. I don't care if they disappear but I think the girls involved should make the decision, not the self appointed guardians of public morality who seem to think they know what is best for everyone. I get the impression that you probably can't look at a pretty girl without self flagelatting at the thought of knocking one out.. We aren't all like that you realise?

I realise that not all of us have the restraint i have and clearly some posters on here are complete ****ers

DP

For women interested in and motivated by a career in modelling, these are dream tickets. What's important is that they are treated fairly and not exploited.

I have nothing to hand to back it up but I'm pretty sure that advertisers have proved that pretty or sexy girls enhance a products image for both men and women.

It's like the 'real women' ad campaigns on TV- they are done to play the virtue signalling trump card NOT because it makes women want to buy the product. Otherwise they wouldn't have to spend the whole advert basically saying "yes, we know these models are fat and a bit ugly but our market research has suggested that some of you guys on twitter think fit-ass models are to blame for your low self esteem so we are cashing in on the latest trend of ramming down everyone's throats how my beliefs make me a better person/company than yeow!"

And this is the same thing. F1 will review and investigate and ultimately a few years down the line ban grid girls because virtue signalling is now slowly becoming big business. But the only losers will be another closed door to the aspiring models who choose this career.
And the frumpy hand wringers will look elsewhere for something to ban and probably never watch F1 again 😆

[quote=Junkyard ]DP

steady on

What's important is that they are treated fairly and not exploited.

Nope.

I have nothing to hand to back it up but I'm pretty sure that advertisers have proved that pretty or sexy girls enhance a products image for both men and women.

Ok - but why?

I will be banning stupidity, crap arguments and lazy insults and force people to explain their views without just insulting those who disagree

threads will be considerably shorter and some folk will be unable to post when all they can use is reason

F1 Grid Girls under review

Have they seen all the music videos on youtube with female models? Ban them too? I mean some of them really look like they have been exploited.

molgrips- At a guess, because men think the product will help them secure a mate that looks equally attractive and the women think they will magically become more attractive to a potential mate by associating themselves with the product?

I'm guessing your going to say that's not good because it means they are sub-consciously devaluing their self worth in order to do so?

Junkyard - lazarus
I will be banning ...... lazy insults

I’ve posted something similar to this before, but I’ll say it again...

It’s far from certain that the grid girls as individuals are being exploited. Likely most have chosen to be there, and are paid.

That’s not justification for the wider context: young pretty girls have been chosen to be there, as decoration. They don’t add to the actual sporting endeavour,

As a viewer, you see that the men (and a tiny minority of female drivers, in lower formulae) are there to drive, the young, pretty, often minimally dressed girls are there to look pretty.

Any girls watching see that. Boys watching see that. It contributes to their understanding of cultural norms. It may dissuade the girls from watching again. It certainly framed how the boys see the role of females in the sport, and the world.

I’d rather kids didn’t grow up watching this sort of differentiation.

As far as where to go from here...

I don’t think grid girls should be ‘banned’. But I do think that organisations like Liberty should [b]chose[/b] not to continue with having then there.

That’s a small but very important difference.

And the change sends a good signal to the next generation, and might take 20 years. Think how far things have come in the last 20 years with equality of all sorts, and the change is to everyone’s advantage.
That change comes about because people make [b]changes[/b]

The exploitation thing and ‘women losing jobs’, ‘they want to be there’, all seem to be distractions from the issue that are raised by supporters of the status quo, often quite successfully. But they block changes towards a more fair and equitable society.

I’d rather Liberty moved on, and set a fine example while doing it.

[quote=scotroutes ]Junkyard - lazarus
I will be banning ...... lazy insultsMote. Beam. Eye.

mine are not lazy 😉
TBH in this thread they were only replies to insult [its a fair point in general]

I lack the skill to express it like the poster above who says what I mean

Any girls watching see that. Boys watching see that. It contributes to their understanding of cultural norms. It may dissuade the girls from watching again. It certainly framed how the boys see the role of females in the sport, and the world.

I get that arguement, but then kids are exposed to things that influence their understanding of cultural norms in every walk of life, pretty much every time they stick on the tv or open a magazine, or browse the internet. I dont think in today's society girls grow up without role models or lack opportunity.

Kids see all sorts of things, and many of them include poor examples. Some include good examples.

Why, when you have the opportunity, choose to make things worse when [i]you could choose to make a positive contribution[/i]?

Would it really make the experience of watching the race worse if that change was made?

Sport is about being the best, and in doing so is about inspiring the next generation. It is both inspirational and should be aspirational. It should be aspirational for sporting excellence reasons only. Adding glamour as a side product doesn't fit imo. Kids take a lot away from watching sport. I don't see how glamour or modelling fits into this.

Would it really make the experience of watching the race worse if that change was made?

Well not for me as I don't watch the sport. But I imagine that they serve a purpose, i'm sure the glamour and spectacle they provide doesn't do any harm to viewing figures or revenue.

They are selling a product after all, no different than any other form of advertising in my book.

I do get the point however..what I don't agree with is the exploitation arguement that others have made.

I’ve posted something similar to this before, but I’ll say it again...

Good post. If people don't understand that as the reason then they never will. It is all about the wider implications.

That's the crux of it for me. It's cars burning precious fuel to drive fast in circles for cheap thrills, cash and the chance to spray booze over your rivals!
It's tacky to start with!!! It's a bit different from getting a stripper to hand out Nobel peace prizes!

If the target audience and ultimately the customers who buy the stuff that encourages the sponsors to invest in the whole circus get a little buzz out of seeing a hot grid girl, and it makes the whole thing a bit more glamourous and alluring then they should not be ashamed of that.

I don't think the girls are being exploited either. As I said, for me that is not the issue.

The simple question is if they were not there now would you suggest adding them?
Leads onto if they were replaced with somebody wearing more clothes would you notice?

I do wonder why we have a number if these arguments, race, sex, gender, etc. Where we have groups of folks who just don't 'get it', on both sides. The seems to be no common frame of reference which allows folks to talk about the same thing. So arguments are orthogonal and we get nowhere.

Top post Sockpuppet.

Junkyard - lazarus
I lack the skill to express it like the poster above who says what I mean

Considering all the practice you've put in on here, maybe it's time to acknowledge internet arguing isn't really for you after all 😆

As a viewer, you see that the men (and a tiny minority of female drivers, in lower formulae) are there to drive, the young, pretty, often minimally dressed girls are there to look pretty.

Any girls watching see that. Boys watching see that. It contributes to their understanding of cultural norms. It may dissuade the girls from watching again. It certainly framed how the boys see the role of females in the sport, and the world.

I’d rather kids didn’t grow up watching this sort of differentiation.

Totally this.

It's the same as the TDF podium girls - they aren't being exploited at all, but their presence supports a damaging gender stereotype that we need to get away from.

maybe it's time to acknowledge internet arguing isn't really for you after all

* see what i did there 😉

I do wonder why we have a number if these arguments, race, sex, gender, etc. Where we have groups of folks who just don't 'get it', on both sides. The seems to be no common frame of reference which allows folks to talk about the same thing. So arguments are orthogonal and we get nowhere.

This. It's completely subjective. One person could consider posing on the podium highly desirable and driving cars fast in circles as utterly needless and demeaning. Another could think it's vice versa.

Some people who aren't fast drivers will see fast drivers on the podium getting money and status for being fast and will be sad. Some people who aren't sexy young women will see SYW on the podium getting money and status for being SYW and will be sad.

It's all totally subjective.

Always wondered what purpose they serve . When its slashing down, maybe but otherwise?
However, who does the job is no ones business but those who pay and those who do. No one in this world has the right to say "you can't do that because it gives a certain image or perception." If the girls are happy, good luck to them. If not, they can do something else.

No one in this world has the right to say "you can't do that because it gives a certain image or perception."

Why not?

Apparently this argument does not extend to women wearing the Burkha

Interestingly I wonder how many folk argue that titillating women is their choice but the Burka is oppression and vice versa

[quote=mattsccm ]Always wondered what purpose they serve . When its slashing down, maybe but otherwise?
The protective gear the drivers wear tends to result in them overheating while sitting about on the grid. The umbrellas are more important then than when it's raining.

and status for being SYW and will be sad.

Is this a new offshoot of STW?

People who object to this on the basis that it sends wrong signals to their kids should raise their children a bit better and leave everyone else alone.

Being honest losing pretty girls from the grid won't affect me. But when they try to take the pretty girls out of porn then they'll have to drag something from my cold, dead hands...

from my cold, dead hands...

Sitting on your arm again?

It helps.

People who object to this on the basis that it sends wrong signals to their kids should raise their children a bit better and leave everyone else alone.

Being a good parent goes like this:

"See how the women are just standing around looking pretty whilst the men are doing the exciting stuff? It doesn't have to be like that. Women can do exciting stuff too, they aren't just pretty things"
"But Dad, why do they only have women looking pretty and only men driving?"
"Because some people still think that racing is a men's thing and women are just pretty things"
"That's wrong, and it upsets me that people think that about me. I want to make things better when I grow up."

So then they grow up and campaign for change, and get criticised by people like you *because* they were brought up well. Can't win really, can we?

[quote=rene59 ]People who object to this on the basis that it sends wrong signals to their kids should raise their children a bit better and leave everyone else alone.

It will be quite difficult to argue societal norms dont affect children irrespective of the parents efforts. Still I am wiling to read your attempt.

Let's suppose a ban is implemented. If I were a driver and it was particularly sunny of wet I would want someone there keeping me in the shade or dry, couldn't give a toss if it's Mick the mechanic in his overalls or his Missus in a dress (or any other team member or friend) .... or maybe they are wearing team shirts or something else with advertising on it ...... and maybe especially if it's hot they choose to wear something like a vest and shorts.

So, like I said, where do you draw the line?

molgrips - Member

People who object to this on the basis that it sends wrong signals to their kids should raise their children a bit better and leave everyone else alone.

Being a good parent goes like this:

"See how the women are just standing around looking pretty whilst the men are doing the exciting stuff? It doesn't have to be like that. Women can do exciting stuff too, they aren't just pretty things"
"But Dad, why do they only have women looking pretty and only men driving?"
"Because some people still think that racing is a men's thing and women are just pretty things"
"That's wrong, and it upsets me that people think that about me. I want to make things better when I grow up."

So then they grow up and campaign for change, and get criticised by people like you *because* they were brought up well. Can't win really, can we?

Best Molgrips post ever tbh

Balance is the answer but as with most aspects of 21st century life, society just seems to swing wildly from one extreme to the other.

"See how the women are just standing around looking pretty whilst the men are doing the exciting stuff? It doesn't have to be like that. Women can do exciting stuff too, they aren't just pretty things"
"But Dad, why do they only have women looking pretty and only men driving?"
"Because some people still think that racing is a men's thing and women are just pretty things"
"That's wrong, and it upsets me that people think that about me. I want to make things better when I grow up."

Women can be F1 drivers, nothing stopping them if they have the talent and resources to do so. Nothing stopping men standing around looking pretty either if there is a market for them to do so.

Still don't see the problem, I'm sure the women 'just standing around pretty' work hard in order to maintain their appearance, who's to say what they are doing isn't exicitng to them?

[quote=rene59 ]People who object to this on the basis that it sends wrong signals to their kids should raise their children a bit better and leave everyone else alone.

Good point - I'll not let my kids watch F1 or anything else with podium girls then. That appears to be the only obvious way to "raise my kids better" so that they don't get sent the wrong signals.

[url= https://www.ted.com/talks/christiane_amanpour_how_to_seek_truth_in_the_era_of_fake_news?utm_campaign=social&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_content=talk&utm_term=global-social%20issues ]This is relevant for this and many other subjects![/url]

17 minutes of your time, have a coffee.

Male-dominated forum in "not getting everyday casual sexism" shocker.

[quote=rene59 ]Well it's only a small percentage who think like that

Tyranny of the masses who are happy to accept casual sexism?

Women can be F1 drivers, nothing stopping them if they have the talent and resources to do so. Nothing stopping men standing around looking pretty either if there is a market for them to do so.

Yeah, that's definitely the impression a casual observer (or say a child - though it seems molgrips' kids understand better than you do) would get from seeing the grid at a Grand Prix.

Men deciding what women can and can't do with their lives isn't sexist at all. 🙄

Yeah, that's definitely the impression a casual observer (or say a child - though it seems molgrips' kids understand better than you do) would get from seeing the grid at a Grand Prix.

Page 5 and no grid girl ratings? 😯

Lucy Pinder from Alonso's days at Renault...
Out of ten, I'd definitely give her one, no questions asked. 😯 😈

Oh, not that type of review of grid girls. 😉

which men the men of F1 who hire them or the men on this forum who object?

The most backward looking people in this thread are those suggesting that women who've chosen modelling for a career are inferior to those who've chosen to drive a stupid car in circles.

Even male drivers aren't chosen purely for their ability in the car! Where are all the ugly ones??
In a big money sporting enterprise, you are a commercial asset and need to look good on TV whether you have a steering wheel or an umbrella in your hands.

Women can be F1 drivers, nothing stopping them if they have the talent and resources to do so.

Doesn't sound like you've really thought about society much.

Women are often dissuaded from doing certain things because from a very young age they are conditioned to think that some things are for girls and some.for boys. Just look around a toy shop. They have a boys section and a girls section, FFS.

Kids learn from the world around them. And when the world teaches them sexism things, it gets baked into everyone's minds, so they don't notice it any more. Like you rene59.

Same as how there are so few women snooker players. You think that's because women are inferior?

I think that's nonsense. Men and women are not intrinsically motivated in the same ways.

http://time.com/4322947/men-women-sports-evolution/

Even male drivers aren't chosen purely for their ability in the car! Where are all the ugly ones??

Obvs a model is chosen for their appearance obviously a driver is chosen for their driving ability - and possibly ability to fund their drive/sponsorship.
Their looks are neither her nor there and anyway who thinks it is is either making a poor joke or has very poor understanding

Kids learn from the world around them. And when the world teaches them sexism things, it gets baked into everyone's minds, so they don't notice it any more. Like you rene59.

I see and recognise plenty of sexism. I don't believe having a girls toys section and a boys toy section is sexist. Telling a girl she couldn't have a boys toy is. Nothing wrong in my opinion of having two separate genders with different likes and dislikes and individuals free to choose from either or both. Whether society created that or responded to natural lines I don't think you could say conclusively either way. I believe that people should be who or what they like and they should have the freedom to do so.

Men and women are not intrinsically motivated in the same ways.

None of this means that socialization, gender bias and all of the other cultural variables are not at work in the largely male world of sport. “An evolutionary approach is fully compatible with socialization playing a large role,” the researchers write, and so it is

At least quite the whole paragraph Junkyard 🙄

Play has always been a big part of the life of all humans, and sports can be a big part of play. But that doesn’t mean the genders don’t still do it in many different ways—and for many different reasons.

It doesn't change the fact that the motivation is different. Women just aren't interested in sport as much as men even when participation is largely equalised.

Similarly, the fact that there are far fewer women than men who earn their livelihoods playing sports can be viewed as an effect, rather than a cause, of lesser female sports interest. For example, the premier men’s basketball league in the U.S., the National Basketball Association (NBA), has sponsored a women’s professional league (WNBA) since 1997, and the attendance and viewership is a small fraction of the NBA’s and has not grown [114]. Similarly, in the late 1990s a magazine was launched called Sports Illustrated Women (SI Women). SI Women was targeted to appeal to girls and women who wanted follow high-level women’s sports in the way that Sports Illustrated caters to the interests of male sports fans. However, publication of SI Women ceased in 2002 because there was not a market to support it [115], [116]. Other magazines focusing on elite female athletes have also failed to gain large readerships [115].

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0049168

The exercise results indicate that both males and females are motivated to be physically active, but that males are generally more interested in pursuing this in a competitive way

Another reason perhaps why Darts, Snooker and Motorsports aren't intrinsically motivating for women- they don't provide the exercise fulfilment and only appeal to a males innate desire to prove their qualities over their rivals?

Another set of studies addressed historical convergence in a less direct fashion, focusing on sex differences in willingness to train competitively in distance running. Deaner [85], [107], [108] showed that, although the number females that participate in distance running in the U.S. has grown steadily since the 1970s, so that there is no longer a sex difference in participation, there are still roughly three times as many males that run fast relative to sex-specific world class standards. For example, in a typical local 5 K road race with equal male and female participation, for every female that finishes within 25% of the female world record, there are roughly three males that finish within 25% of the male world record. This pattern holds robustly for elite runners and non-elite (i.e., recreational) runners, and tests reveal no indication that the sex difference in the number of relatively fast performers has diminished over the past few decades. Because relative running performance is an equally strong predictor of training volume (e.g., kilometers/week) in men and women [109], these patterns indicate that the sex difference in willingness to train competitively is large and stable [85], [107], [108]. Apparently, the large increase in female runners has mainly involved those who run for non-competitive reasons; most competitive females were already competing by the 1980s or early 1990s.

More evidence that men are predisposed to race each other and women aren't.

At least quite the whole paragraph Junkyard

It doesn't change the fact that the motivation is different. Women just aren't interested in sport as much as men even when participation is largely equalised.