[Closed] F1 car can drive upside down?

on a treadmill, or on an (upside down) road?

unless you know the overall co-efficient of lift for the aerofoils and their dimensions I doubt any calculation is anything other than an estimate

If the downforce is similar to previous times I've heard that quoted it's about 70mph. The cars only weigh about 500kg and they produce so much downforce they can corner at over 3G. To take a flat corner at 3G requires about double the vehicle's weight in downforce IIRC.

pretty sure that f1 cars generate more than 1G downforce, so yeah, they could

[img] [/img]

[url= http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10705 ]GEEK-A-THON !!![/url]

Yes very possible, as above they weigh very little. The wings are kept small to reduce loads and reduce cornering speeds, with larger wings they'd generate even more downforce (or up force if driving on an inverted road). I saw some very interesting footage (could have been top gear) where unless the car was going pretty fast it was very unstable and didn't corner at all as car is light and grip is poor without the downforce,

I saw this ad earlier and thought similar. Ok, mathematically they could, but why don't they?

<I wouldn't want to be the guinea pig content>

But if we estimate a weight we could work out how much downforce is required and therefore if it's feasible?

Tom, there are too many assumptions and variables to accurately make a guess. If it is obviously feasible then maybe, but the assumptions may make the result marginal then there is little point.

A quick Google returns slightly more educated figures:

[url= http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10705 ]linky[/url]

I'd start watching again if they had some upside down sections on the track.

Gary Anderson film:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24772746

As for why don't they? How would you get it up there?

slowoldman - Member
Gary Anderson film:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24772746
As for why don't they? How would you get it up there?

Helical track.

Before I read any geek links, presumably any car that can generate more than 1G of downforce, irrespective of the car weight, can be driven upside down?

Now off to read geek links.

Yes, now I;ve thought more about it I'm completely wrong. 😉

Put the wings on upsidedown see if it flys 😆

I think its around 120mph, they produce I think 1600kg of downforce at 150mph, massively more than the cars weight, around 690kg

Pretty sure this has been quoted since the 90's and it's true. But the car would have to get up to speed the right way first, obviously, and then have a spiral track gradual enough.

A quick google throws up some similar race car data quoted here: http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41451

An f1 car weighs about 1500lbs so at 150mph we could pretty confidently assume that one would have twice it's weight in downforce at 150mph-ish.

Using the square law for lift then that would give about 70mph for the break even point, obviously you would need to exceed that by a safety margin. Of course you could also set up the wings in Monaco high downforce mode to get a better CL etc.

Wouldn't the oil I the engine just oil the plugs up or seep out the breathers or starve the oil pump

mav12 - Member
Wouldn't the oil I the engine just oil the plugs up or seep out the breathers or starve the oil pump

OOh, I know the answer to the this question.

Dry sump is the way forwards. Dirt bikes and planes use it.

If you bolt one F1 car upside down on the top of another, and drive at high speed into a mine...? 😉

OP. Have ever been on an aeroplane? Same principle, just turned upside down. You'd first have to get the car up to a speed where the downforce created exceeds the weight of the car, but then spiral round onto the ceiling and it would stay there.

The helical track mention made me think of The Man with the Golden Gun with the helical jump.
[url=

footage[/url]

KevJ, andy Craig - thanks for links and info.

Flying Ox - yes I have been on an aeroplane and have a working knowledge of aerodynamics. I am an airline pilot.

So why do you find it hard to believe? You obviously understand the physics of it all (I would hope...)
If you can create enough lift to get a 70-odd ton aircraft off the ground, why would it be BS to suggest that you can create enough lift to get a 500kg car off the ground. That's all you're doing. You're just stopping it going any higher with the ceiling it's driving on.

Some have tried..
[img] [/img]

I'm sure they could with the right tweaks

Downforce gives you grip for corners, but makes you slower on the straights, so its a balance that is adjusted by circuit. Its also why you have thing like DRS so you can reduce the downforce generated by the wing

If they tweaked it for pure downforce and ignored top speed I'm sure its possible, just unnecessary for F1 use!

It would be easy to do in a wind tunnel, with a rotating floor...

Start the right way up. Get wind speed to 150mph. FLip that bad boy over!

DrP

Start the right way up. Get wind speed to 150mph. FLip that bad boy over!

Dry sump 😯

( that's the level of my input to this thread)

My sumps, my sumps, my greasy oily sumps.

I saw a documentary once where they drove a car upside down in a busy tunnel.
It was hosted by Tommy lee Jones and Will smith.

DrP

...
Here's a screen grab of it...
[img] [/img]

DrP

[quote=D0NK muttered bleakly]if we're going to prove it works I want some fantastical bit of tarmac construction and a nutter to drive it not some namby pamby simulations, be gone with your simple safe ideas

this, 100 %

[img] [/img]

This year they can barely drive the normal way up.

It would certainly make engine failures more interesting...

sure this one's been done before?

don't forget when doing the sums that the aero downforce upsidedown needs to have an additional 2x the weight of the car to get the same force into the road surface, if you want the same traction.

and when did kg become "force"?

I hope RB don't try it with their current car, breaking down upside down would surely injure someone's finger

and when did kg become "force"?

Since we've been all hanging out on the same planet 🙂

Since the 'mericans have always used lbf, and no one can be bothered to convert from lb to kg to N whem unless your NASA* g is always a constant.

*who use lbf but still define it on earth

Before I read any geek links, presumably any car that can generate more than 1G of downforce, irrespective of the car weight, can be driven upside down?

"1G of force"..? 🙂

And yet I reckon everyone understands exactly what was meant by it.

From recollection, F1 cars at top speed generate over 2000kg of force ( 😆 ) and currently weigh 691kg with an empty tank (or 100kg more with a full tank) so they'd very comfortably drive upside down. Or at least they would if they were designed to actually work upside down

helix, or loop the loop, very comfortably

drive, ie with enough upforce for the car to be able to put enough power down (err up) on the ceiling to be able to maintain enough velocity to generate that aero force? not convinced.

needs 2 * 691kg of aero "force" at 0 km/h just to stick to the ceiling with the same force as a car pulling out from the pits. we'll go with empty tank cos it'll need all the help it can get. don't recall if that mass is with or without driver?

anyone got a plot of a typical F1 car aero force vs velocity in Monaco spec ?

691kg of force is including the driver. And DF is related to (IIRC!) the square of the speed.