So the telemetry shows a brake application from Verstappen causing the collision and the penalty is effectively nothing?
With all the pit-to-car communication available, how come Hamilton wasn't made aware that Verstappen had been told to let him past? That whole issue seems a bit random. Maybe the cars need to be fitted with indicators 🙂
Yup, not his fault Bottas was miles away
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scotroutes
Full MemberWith all the pit-to-car communication available, how come Hamilton wasn’t made aware that Verstappen had been told to let him past? That whole issue seems a bit random. Maybe the cars need to be fitted with indicators
Race control hadn’t told Mercedes yet, adding their own bit of spice to the overall mess
So he did brake test him. Which is a/ disgraceful, and b/ idiotic to think telemetry won't show it up.
And makes Horner and Marko look like bellends for defending/denying it when one assumes the team would have had that data almost immediately.
Just had the news of the steward's findings.
Absolute disgrace. Deliberately braking in the middle of a fast straight, causing a competitor to hit you and being found to have done so dangerously is dealt with by 10 second penalty and 2 points on your license? Any other series and that would have been a disqualification and a race ban.
Max and Red Bull are bringing the sport into disrepute and they don't care. If they win either or both championships then they will be forever tainted. Massi and the stewards need to have a good, hard look at the precedents they are setting with these decisions as at some point it's going to lead to a massive crash.
I'll have to give it a lot of thought over the winter break whether this version of F1 is one I want to watch.
oh this page is gonna have a meltdown when they see the outcome…..
How right you are. Its really rather funny as well as predictable.
Both drivers level on points. If both crash out next weekend then by virtue of more wins, Max is WDC.
That ^^^ reprimand is an absolute pisstake. @reluctantjumper has nailed it in a much more eloquent manner than I can manage, hear hear 👏.
The cynic in me would be surprised if the WDC were decided upon a Verstappen DQ and Hamilton then waltzing to a win at Abu Dhabi, which would otherwise be stuffed with rich folk buying shit.
Good, the race report officially finds Max a cheat, correct result.
A 2.4g braketest according to the report!??!! :-O
Race control hadn’t told Mercedes yet, adding their own bit of spice to the overall mess
Jeez - what a cock-up. You'd surely think that penalties - especially that particular one - would be communicated to all teams/drivers simultaneously. I wonder if the stewards realise that culpability and have applied the penalty in respect of that.
A 2.4g braketest according to the report!??!! :-O
Is that correct? Was the brake pedal pressed or was it a lift off and aero drag deceleration? I genuinely haven't seen the report BTW.
Good, the race report officially finds Max a cheat, correct result.
No it doesn’t.
Max went too far today. He needs to learn and get that extra maturity that sometimes it’s better to finish second and bank the points and he could’ve already been champion by now. And maybe without looking like an idiot.
It says in the report posted above. 69bar of pressure going through the brakes.
MV is dangerous. I’ve always thought so. I sincerely hope he’s never the cause of a serious or fatal accident but I’m worried it might happen.
It says in the report posted above. 69bar of pressure going through the brakes.
Also, oof. Not cool.
This conversation with FIA AND RB is embarrassing. Why the * is the race director making them offers?! Just apply the rules you * cowboys.
Race control has been pretty shocking this year. If they're not going to be positive in their decisions in accordance with the rules then all kinds of weirdness will ensue on track. Communications seem to be pretty poor too.
Ha ha. 2.4g off braking. That's not just a dab.
Horner said to the C4 crew that "Max lifted, didn't brake hard or anything like that". Eh? You what...?
The woman interviewer (can't remember her name) then specifically asked whether Max braked because Lewis claims that he did and Horner said nope, he didn't (in more words than that). Whoops.
Weird. He kinda hovered around the middle of the track, weaved around a bit and then jabbed the brakes before driving off.
Can't believe for that he got a penalty-non penalty...
I can't see how the last race won't be a case of Max taking out Lewis if it comes down to the wire.
That the one of the worst gp's I've seen that's run the distance in 30 years of watching.
Unnecessary street circuit, a driver that can't be overtaken without an accident and a backwards step in safety. Sure it made great TV but as a race it was shit.
Well… I must admit I didn’t really give any credence to the allegations of Verstappen actually braking. Because to have braked would have been really stupid. The fact that he slowed on the racing line and repeatedly changed direction while doing so was somewhat out of order, and flooring it immediately after the collision was really weird… but you’d have to be really dumb to actually hit the brake. You’d also have to be pretty dumb to be a team principal saying “absolutely not” when asked directly whether your driver braked. It’s as if they’ve forgotten that telemetry exists.
Let’s just hope the next one’s a clean fight.
I don’t see what the fuss is about Massi sorting out the giving the place back matter the way he did. It’s in the regs that it’s at the race directors discretion to give a driver who has gained an advantage by going off the track an opportunity to concede that advantage back. And that opportunity is nearly always given, and if taken negates the need to refer it up to the stewards. The only difference here is that the red flag so soon after it happened meant the normal practice couldn’t be followed, so they sorted it out in the pit lane.
Mental race but pretty poor really despite lots of drama.
Are there no rules about giving places back whereby you can't just do it strategically with an aim to immediately take it back again. If there isn't surely there should be?
I don't think it was a brake check as such, just a dumb move by Verstappen. He was required to let Hamilton past, but wanted to do that before the DRS zone so that he (Verstappen) could then retake the lead using DRS. Hamilton knew this and was holding back until the DRS zone. Max tried to force Hamilton to pass by braking. It was a dumb move but I don't think it was a deliberate brake check.
Verstappen has had penalty points added to his licence. This is similar to Hamilton's Silverstone penalty, where the time penalty was meaningless but the driver was given penalty points. The stewards have made their decision, I think it's time to drop it and look forward to what should be a smashing final race.
what should be a smashing final race.
Interesting word to choose, you might be right 🙂
Are there no rules about giving places back whereby you can’t just do it strategically with an aim to immediately take it back again. If there isn’t surely there should be?
Rules were brought in after Hamilton and Raikkonen both did the same thing to each other at Spa in '08 but for some reason Massi has ignored that completely.
Verstappen has had penalty points added to his licence. This is similar to Hamilton’s Silverstone penalty, where the time penalty was meaningless but the driver was given penalty points. The stewards have made their decision, I think it’s time to drop it and look forward to what should be a smashing final race.
Not similar at all as one was in a corner with an overtake and defence whereas this one was a deliberate act in having to give a place back and the conscious actions of Verstappen being found to be dangerous.
As for dropping it? This has set the tone for the final race and how the championship will be remembered. This will run on until lights out on Sunday and will also be a deciding factor in how any moves in the final race are judged. If you want to see how this should all be happening correctly go watch the '98 and '99 seasons for when Hakkinen and Schumacher slugged it out just as intensely but with the utmost respect for each other.
Quite funny that when the "investigating" graphic came up for verstappen the commentators didn't know which of his many incidents it was for.
Also quite funny that both helmet and Karen said categorically that Max did not brake according to "their data".
If you want to see how this should all be happening correctly go watch the ’98 and ’99 seasons for when Hakkinen and Schumacher slugged it out just as intensely but with the utmost respect for each other.
After Schumacher had all his points taken off him in ‘97 for trying to ram Villenueve out of the title race… is that where Max is now?
I don’t think it was a brake check as such, just a dumb move by Verstappen. He was required to let Hamilton past, but wanted to do that before the DRS zone so that he (Verstappen) could then retake the lead using DRS. Hamilton knew this and was holding back until the DRS zone. Max tried to force Hamilton to pass by braking. It was a dumb move but I don’t think it was a deliberate brake check.
Whether he meant for Hamilton to hit him or not, these are supposed to be drivers at the peak of their powers. How dumb does it have to be before it's called for what it was. I can't believe he didn't realise what the outcome could be.
2.4g is 24m/s/s give or take, or scrubbing the equivalent of 80kph or 50mph off in a second. I just looked up and the reaction time at a F1 start is between 0.2 and 0.3s (measured as time from lights out to action, not just the time to process that the lights are out) That's for something they know's going to happen; assuming LH wasn't waiting for MV to brake test him, it's probably reasonable to accept LH would have a reaction time at the top end or above that. By which time MV has taken 25-35kph off his speed.
Which the video shows; MV comes backwards into LH rather than the other way round (LH doesn't accelerate into him) I just can't believe Horner and Marko didn't have the data immediately, and still came out (and MV too) and pointed the blame at LH. Makes them look even more arsehole than previous incidents.
Is there a 'disrepute' charge, because they're regularly bringing the sport into disrepute.
Odd one in that verdict.
Hamilton apparently did not know Verstappen had been told to give the place back.
But did know that Verstappen was trying to give him the place before the DRS line and didn’t want it back before the DRS line.
Which do the stewards think it was?
Ahhh, the memories - that race took me back to my youth.
Unfortunately it's a great memory of playing Wipeout on the PS1 rather than watching F1 😉
Which do the stewards think it was?
I think the stewards decided in the end that 1. they knew LH at that point hadn't been told that MV had to give the place up, and 2. MV lent on the brakes a bit too heavily to force the issue to take advantage of the DRS zone. That's what the penalty was for.
That LH didn't go for the O/T was a bit of misdirection really.
Ceding your position after you’ve gained an illegal advantage is sportsmanship 101. The whole point is to put your hands up and say “yeah, sorry about that old boy, I shouldn’t have done that!” Not to game the rules so you can do an instant re-overtake making the whole gesture meaningless.
Max and Red Bull are bringing the sport into disrepute and they don’t care. If they win either or both championships then they will be forever tainted.
Yeah, this. Meanwhile Lewis has been looking graceful and serene by comparison. If HAM wins, it’ll be deserved and he’ll have achieved it despite some very desperate tactics from VER/RB. If VER wins, it’ll define his career as the aggressive guy who will take you out to win.
I can’t see VER winning without some in-race controversy next week. It’s certainly going to be an interesting one.
Whether he meant for Hamilton to hit him or not, these are supposed to be drivers at the peak of their powers. How dumb does it have to be before it’s called for what it was. I can’t believe he didn’t realise what the outcome could be.
That's why he was given penalty points. The stewards decided that it was not acceptable driving. They've made their decision, time to move on.
I’m not in the slightest bit familiar with the rule book on giving a place back but surely the wording should be something like “it must be carried out by clearly moving off the racing line, holding your position and slowed by lifting off the throttle. Braking is not permitted.”
Either that or put an orange LED in the brake harvesting lights so they can indicate that they’re pulling over…
time to move on.
It's like decolonising the curriculum all over again...
They’ve made their decision, time to move on.
Except RB are appealing the decision.
Can stewards increase the punishment? I'd be tempted to say it's better be good Helmut because we're now playing double or quits.
I have some sympathy with Max questioning why he was penalised 5 seconds for forcing Hamilton (and himself) off the road as Lewis overtook....after all, he did exactly that in Brazil and was told it was fine!
And funnily enough, that's exactly what all the other drivers said would happen after the Brazil verdict!
RB are appealing the decision.
Really? Why would they give themselves that distraction heading into the most highest-pressure weekend they’ve had in about a decade, given that the penalty basically cost them nothing?
Except RB are appealing the decision.
Got a source, haven't that reported anywhere - and not sure why they'd bother appealing a non penalty unless they want to lose the 2 points off Maxs tally, just so there's a bit more headroom in the unlikely event that he does something controversial again
Its not like Hamilton has been squeaky clean either - earlier incident in the season where he was found to be in the wrong after punting Verstappen out but did not get significant punishment
IMO put another driver out - you should not be able to benefit. Both these guys have done this this season and got away with it.
The one eyed view of some on here is funny
this has been escalating all season with tit for tat foul play but some of you cannot see
The whole race was a farce
Can stewards increase the punishment?
Happened to Irvine - got a 1 race ban, increased to 3 on appeal, I think. Jos was involved in that, IIRC! 🙂
The one eyed view of some on here is funny
Yes some people are so desperate to be anti anything with an English connection despite being English themselves. Very strange.
The one eyed view of some on here is funny
In the world of the blind, the one eyed man is king.
Anyhow, mods to Yas Marina so we can't compare with last year, and of course Merc & Ham had wrapped everything up so it was a vanity race, but Max got pole and walked away with the race. Whatever happens I hope we get something a bit more interesting (but not too interesting!) next weekend.
The one eyed view of some on here is funny
Ok, I think by now we get your message, even if it lacks a fair chunk of self-awareness.
Inadvisably raking over old coals, I would point out that one notable aspect of the Silverstone penalty is that the stewards seemed to contradict the FIA’s own direction for judging who “has” a corner in that scenario. Mercedes were clearly already very familiar with this prior to the incident, so Hamilton would have engaged on those terms, and when viewed in that light it looks entirely like Max was primarily at fault.
the long lap penalty in motogp has worked really well. I'm a bit surprised F1 hasn't gone the same route. Maybe the tracks don't accommodate it so easily? But with all the run-off areas these days you'd think it'd be a simple job to paint a loop in.
