MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
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thols2
Free Member
No, just like the McLaren isn’t a Norris specific design or the Merc isn’t a Hamilton specific design. The engineers work on making the fastest possible car. Those top cars are very difficult to drive, the drivers have to be able to adapt to the car. Verstappen, Hamilton, Norris, Leclerc, Sainz, Alonso, and Russell seem to be able to adjust themselves to the demands of the car. Perez, Ricciardo, Gasly, Albon, Bottas, etc. seem to struggle with this. It’s not that the engineers have designed the car for a specific driver, it’s that the very best drivers can get the best out of difficult cars.
That's basically the complete opposite of anything I've ever heard
I don’t know if it’s fair to say the rake on Max’s car is similar to that which gave Seb four titles at Redbull and whether it handles similarly.
From what I remember, Vettel really mastered the blown diffuser. I think it took confidence in having grip to get on the throttle early in the corner exit and that gave a boost all the way down the next straight, that need stable rear grip. Max seems really comfortable with an unstable rear. That's allowed Red Bull to design a car that has a good balance of drag versus downforce, but is really difficult to drive on the limit. I think the current Red Bull is completely the opposite to what Vettel won his titles in, that's why nobody else seems able to drive it.
That’s basically the complete opposite of anything I’ve ever heard
Would you care to explain in detail what it is that you've heard?
It’s not that the engineers have designed the car for a specific driver,
No, the idea that a company investing several hundred million pounds per year in an F1 outfit would not design a car around a driver they are paying upwards of $50m a year is crackers. You may have guessed I'm referring specifically to Mercedes here due to the numbers, Lewis is a sure shot and it's a given that they would design a car to what his driving style requires and the second driver can just suck it up.
it’s that the very best drivers can get the best out of difficult cars
This much is a given
With a Group B/A rally driver dad as both nature and nurture, Sainz ought to be able to drive anything on anything.
I read an interesting piece about Alonso where he said that he does all his speed-grip-feeling through steering wheel feedback to his hands. Without a powered steering wheel system that allows him to do this, he's essentially "blind" through a corner. It took the Alpine team slightly longer than they expected to get this right. See how his results suddenly improved half way through the season when they gave him a car he could feel properly/drive at the limit in the corner.
It's not so much that he prefers understeer or a back end that steps out, what he needs is to be able to feel what's happening, then he can drive it.
Pato O'Ward seems to like how F1 cars drive!... 🙂
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/oward-addictive-first-test-mclaren-abu-dhabi/6884959/
Good job Marko’s not a strategist:
“Marko said he "understood" why Mercedes were "unhappy". But he said: "What I don't understand: they had also the ability also to go to the pits. They didn't. So it was their mistake."
Stick to the day job, eh, Helmut. The day job mostly being a massive ****ing hypocrite:
Marko added: "And [for Mercedes] to influence Michael Masi, the race director, not to give a safety car…”
Remind me who said to Masi, “We just need one racing lap…” after which he changed his decision? 🤦
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59649304
The man really is a prize bell end, even by F1 standards.
Only because I’m sat here waiting for so. To finish swimming…
Anyone looked at the lap times of the safety car between 1st and 2nd times it was deployed? Ham was complaining a bit about its pace, just wondered if it added to conspiracy if times showed it was definitely slower so they had more time to clear Latifi and get that last lap in.
Anyone looked at the lap times of the safety car between 1st and 2nd times it was deployed?
Possibly overthkniing it, wasn't the first one a VSC and the second one a full SC?
So, when do we think Mercedes will make their announcement re: appeal? Will they leave it until the last minute for maximum media coverage?
Well the time limit runs out after the Prizegiving Gala starts so my guess would be an hour or two before that. Should make every question thrown at Verstappen about it instead of how it feels to be given the trophy.
Doesn't Hamilton have to be there too to hand the trophy over? That could be interesting.
Lewis has so far been a gentleman and shown great character. I’m sure he’ll be there and hand Max the trophy in a sporting way. Not sure there will be many words said between them though.
Nice piece here...
And here
Lewis will hand over the trophy no doubt about it assuming Merc don't continue with the appeal. If they do continue then would handing over the trophy prejudice their position?
Maybe they are waiting to gauge public reaction. They must be in two minds about it, nobody wants to look like a sore loser but what happened on Sunday was such a joke it would be for the benefit of the sport to kick up a fuss, if only to push the FIA into making some much needed changes
Ultimately, Max won the race under the rules as they were applied by the official governing the race. For that reason he deserves to keep the championship title.
However, Mercedes, Ferrari, and the other teams affected, have a very good case to argue the rules were improperly applied, to the detriment of their race.
That IMHO is what Mercedes should appeal, stating they don’t want the outcome of the championship altered, but want a public acknowledgment from the FIA that mistakes were made, and the rules are amended to ensure it cannot happen again.
Well the time limit runs out after the Prizegiving Gala starts so my guess would be an hour or two before that. Should make every question thrown at Verstappen about it instead of how it feels to be given the trophy.
Which would make Merc look petty in the extreme.
Merc have a very expensive lawyer working on it. Any good lawyer will use all the available time to review things and decide how to proceed. I expect Merc will announce whether they intend to appeal a few minutes before the deadline.
There will also be the might of the Mercedes marketing department working out which scenario is best for them.
a) Evil corporate car company stealing F1 title from Max.
b) Sportsmanlike, good losers and get loads of positive press coverage.
Which would make Merc look petty in the extreme.
They can't do that - it's Red Bull's MO! 🙂
I’ve just had a, frankly brilliant, idea to amend the sprint race format.
Have the regular race then add on (random number, between 1-10) laps for just the top two in the title race, with 2nd place getting to spin a one armed bandit for what advantages they get over 1st place in those laps. Points only awarded if 2nd place beats 1st.
Would keep the title race spicy, eh?
There will also be the might of the Mercedes marketing department working out which scenario is best for them.
I can't see them reversing the result of the WDC. Maybe an acknowledgement from the FIA / compensation (behind closed doors). To a point, Mercedes have to be careful about undermining the sport, lest their recent dominance seem less impressive. Meanwhile, all this publicity has no doubt been great for the teams / sponsors - The FIA can be the 'bad guy' while RB/Merc rake in a few extra dollars. I suspect the prize money pales in comparison and Merc already have the higher value WCC prize, so while RB have had a massive win here, Merc are also benefitting from the controversy (financially and reputationally).
The only person it really affected negatively is Lewis and his legacy and he's been a great sport about it all so far (Outwardly, at least).
with 2nd place getting to spin a one armed bandit for what advantages they get over 1st place in those laps.
Red shells? Banana skins?
Stable doors slamming shut
I ain’t clickin’ no Daily Mail link
That's half the issue - at least now team managers can't try to influence the race directors decisions.
But that doesn't help if the race director is altering the rules on the fly with at least one eye on "the show"
I honestly don't think Masi would've had the "one racing lap" if Horner hadn't been on the blower so I'm glad they're hopefully doing away with it. Toto's moaning earlier in the race was awful too.
thols2
Free MemberMerc have a very expensive lawyer working on it. Any good lawyer will use all the available time to review things and decide how to proceed. I expect Merc will announce whether they intend to appeal a few minutes before the deadline
Any good lawyer should also be acting in their clients best interests. In this case that wouldn’t involve going for the high-drama last minute announcement
Unless that's in their client's best interests, of course.
Indeed, but this isn’t really about the race team now. The Mercedes PR engine (BIG Mercedes rather than Mercedes F1) won’t want to come out of this looking like the corporate monsters. Remember a few pages back when everyone was saying how amazing it was that Mercedes were somehow (well, courtesy of Red Bill’s behaviour) now looking like the underdog?
That’s half the issue – at least now team managers can’t try to influence the race directors decisions.
Binotto - "Does any team principal mean all team principals?"
His position does seem pretty untenable now. I've seen a few bits on Twitter about getting Eduardo Freitas in as F1 race director. I don't know too much about him, other than he is the RD for WEC with a zero tolerance for bullshit.
Lewis will hand over the trophy no doubt about it
Whilst wearing his newly acquired gong from HM."Here you go Max, I've got seven of those and now one of these. Oh and it's SIR Lewis".
If Masi loses his job, how on earth can the FIA allow the results of the last race to stand - sacking him is a total admission that what he did wasn't right.
If Masi loses his job, how on earth can the FIA allow the results of the last race to stand – sacking him is a total admission that what he did wasn’t right.
Could be some behind the scenes negotiations with Merc et al along the lines of what others have suggested here. A quiet word with the FIA that they will drop any formal appeal against the race result, nod and smile and hand Max his trophy etc but on the understanding that Masi goes and the rules are smartened up?
Masi then goes for personal reasons, to spend more time with his family, more time reading the rule book or whatever and everyone is more or less happy...
Agreed
As Danny says, sneaky enough to do what must be done, leaky enough so that everyone gets a whiff and thinks something stinks
Yeah, it's a way out without admitting up front in public that they were wrong but with everyone knowing that they were wrong and have at least done *something* to resolve it.
Maybe some extra cash bunged at Merc as well by way of an increased Constructor's Championship prize to offset the Driver's Championship loss.
Probably with a few non-disclosure agreements in there too about "thou shalt not say what we did" or how much we paid Masi to bugger off quietly.
If Masi loses his job, how on earth can the FIA allow the results of the last race to stand – sacking him is a total admission that what he did wasn’t right.
Promotion or a sideways move, avoids any issues around recent events.
This won't happen overnight and they now have time to quietly roll something out before the start of next season. It appears the process has already started with the appointment of Peter Bayer as Secretary General for Motorsport who will no doubt have his own ideas for the shape of his team going forward - expect to see more appointments.
It was so clearly a stitch-up that even if Mercedes exhaust (get it?!) every possible option to get it overturned I can't see them ever looking like the bad-guys in this. Being good or bad sports or "professional" is more about how they go about doing what they're going to do rather than what they're going to do imo.
Personally I think if they say, "we think the rules were applied incorrectly, we're taking it to the CAS and we'll say nothing further until they've decided what's what" then that's about as professional as you could ask for.
It was so clearly a stitch-up
Cock-up, not a stitch-up.
Anyway, the timing of the appointment of the new Big Cheese is useful. They’ve got something very visible to get their teeth into from day one.
I think now we just have to sit back and hope Mercedes will maintain their dignity, and trust that the FIA will get its house in order.
Who is going to be the next grande fromage? I had heard that Jean Todt was going but heard anything of who will take over. He wasn't there long was he?
12 years
Shame we can’t bring Max Mosley back. He’d have everyone whipped into line in no time.
Cock-up, not a stitch-up.
Nah, I'm happy with using stitch-up, seems more accurate to me.
Lewis to me is 8x world champion....sorry Sir Lewis
and trust that the FIA will get its house in order.
ahahahahahahahaha ha ha ha
Shame we can’t bring Max Mosley back. He’d have everyone whipped into line in no time.
👏👏👏
Apparently we are all to blame for questioning what happened and are “tarnishing” f1 and MV’s title. What an utter joke.
I don't quite read it like that. I see it as an (almost) admission they've cocked up and that cock up has tarnished the championship as it has led to people questioning the validity of the result.
I've just edited my post as it maybe open to other interpretation as you mention Danny. On first reading it seemed they were shifting blame but I can see your point now.
I’m with Danny, that’s as close to an admission that there’s been such a bad **** up that it’s devaluing Max’s title.
@dukeduvet - I agree the wording is pretty vague and probably intentionally so and there is an element of trying to shift the focus away from the fact they cocked up and onto those questioning the decision.
But, they wouldn't be implementing all those measures if they thought they hadn't made some pretty serious mistakes.
What a crock of **** that statement is. “Generated significant Misunderstanding”, “detailed analysis and clarification exercise”. BS bingo at it’s best!
"Clarification" for god's sake. The ****ing arrogance of it!
And it's not "the argument" or "misunderstanding" tarnishing anything FIA, it's your own mistake.
So, we've misunderstood. So explain it then!
100% stitch up, worn out hard tyres versus fresh softs with Versappen right up Lewis' butt after a free pit, then only allowing the the cars between them to unlap, safety car going too slow to give time for a lap, Masi being swayed to change his mind by Redbull, Lewis had no option to pit because Max would have ended up infront, Lewis didn't stand a chance. Horner is such a little sht, let them race, let them race, yeah you would say that when the hard earned 12 second gap has vanished and you've got fresh soft tyres from a free pit stop, definitely wouldn't be saying that if the roles reversed. The rules need to change, it's too easy for another team to totally change the outcome by safety car from the back of the field, intentionally or not, and the bunching up under safety car needs changing or the time gaps should be reinstated, and don't allow free pit stops.
That’s as much of an admission of guilt as you’ll get outside of a court case. Mercedes’ barristers now have open season should they choose and I presume that the FIA recognise this. The previous precedent is crushing.
It's going down quite badly in the US, which is a market Liberty is trying to push.
Mercedes’ barristers now have open season should they choose and I presume that the FIA recognise this. The previous precedent is crushing
Sadly I think the legal action may not be to overturn the result but to quit F1 before the 2025 agreement to supply engines.
Hopefully I'm wrong but to there's probably clauses over rules and fair play.
I personally don't want them to overturn the result. It wasn't Maxs fault. It happened, he was positioned well to take advantage and he did.
I want the FIA to apologise properly for the mistake they made.
I want massi out but I can almost forgive him as he was under huge pressure to get the race going from liberty and Horner.
But trying to frame this as a misunderstanding by the fans, I'm absolutely seething.
I've spent literally thousands of pounds and god knows how many hours following this sport, the disrespect for us fans is astounding.
100% stitch up,
I don't think anybody who knows Masi believes this was anything other than a mistake made under extreme pressure. Part of the problem was allowing team bosses to badger him during races, that should never have been allowed. However, he made an enormous **** up that leaves him and the FIA lacking credibility. He should resign and the FIA should acknowledge that safety car protocols need to be made explicit if their aim is to avoid having races finishing behind the safety car. Forcing teams to try and guess what's going to happen just makes them look like amateurs.
I personally don’t want them to overturn the result. It wasn’t Maxs fault. It happened, he was positioned well to take advantage and he did.
I want the FIA to apologise properly for the mistake they made.
I think this is what the majority of people want. Awarding the championship to Hamilton now would make things even worse. I'm pretty sure that Merc know that and they are using this incident as leverage to get changes, not in any serious hope of reversing the race results.
It wasn’t Max’s fault, but it was, at least partially RedBull’s fault. They pressed Masi hard to get the “one lap of racing”. Without this, it wouldn’t have happened. Being stripped of the title for helping to bring the sport into disrepute would be rather fitting.
Being stripped of the title for helping to bring the sport into disrepute would be rather fitting.
It would just bring the sport further into disrepute. Hamilton would never really be able to claim it as a legitimate title, it would just be an embarrassment for everyone.
Sometimes in sports two competitors are so close in performance that it just comes down a bit of luck or favourable conditions that decides who wins. That's what happened here. The refereeing was abysmal, but Max drove superbly through the year and deserves to be a champion. Same goes for Hamilton. Best thing is for Max to keep the title, but the FIA acknowledge that they need to improve the race management.
That’s the thing - Max didn’t drive superbly - he was bloody awful all through the year culminating in the penultimate GP which also put the stewards into the spotlight. Had he not been so much of an aggressive, selfish sod all year, maybe the stewards wouldn’t have felt so pressured to do something. Hamilton made some accidental mistakes in a car that was difficult to drive at the start of the season. The more I think on it, the less I believe that Max and RB are worthy champions. Which was where I started out at at the beginning of the penultimate race.
Controversial driving, controversial lobbying, always whining about Mercedes’ wing, engine, steering but never filing a protest, running dodgy wings which flex, then break, but somehow don’t get punished and get many races to fix them.
They’ve pushed and pushed and pushed - THE RULES, not their capabilities.
Massi showed himself to be unable to do the job in the previous race. Too many buttons to press to communicate with the teams. It should be a broadcast to all from him so all know the communication and no whining on private channels.
I think it's pretty clear at this point that Masi is going to go.
I agree that Max should hold on to the title, trying to give it to someone else would make F1 look even worse
I think that this whole 'Max deserved it' shtick needs to end though. The FIA have been giving Red Bull a massive leg up all season, from the aero changes that hugely benefitted their high rake design philosphy to dropping Hamilton to the back of the grid in Brazil for having a broken wing. And even then they still would have lost if it hadn't been the that ridiculous final lap in Abu Dhabi! I get it, Max drove really well, but so can a bunch of other people, that doesn't mean you should get the WDC handed to you on a silver platter to the detriment of the other guy who actually deserved it. The whole thing's a crooked shambles, it's Senna in '89 all over again
The only potential issue with the FIA making some form of tacit admission/apology is that it would delegitimise Max's title.
The counter to that is that it is clear to even the most ardent RB/Max fan that the race and therefore the title was basically handed to him anyway.
This is why, mistake or something more sinister, the whole thing is a huge mess. And Masi is 90% to blame. But, Toto begged for the safety car not to be deployed under the VSC so did he feel it evened things out by bowing to Horner's without fully running through the possible consequences.
I notice he has stayed silent whereas after Brazil and Saudi he was out defending his and the stewards decisions.
TBH their ****ed. It will either be the title Max won in a 'fixed'* race or the title Lewis won in court.
Neither of these are a good outcome.
.
* perception that it was fixed by some fans, even if the 'fix' was to engineer a show at the finish rather than necessarily for a particular driver to win. Would it have been the same the other way round? Who knows.
The other problem the FIA have is that if they get rid of Masi and make him the scapegoat, then what’s stopping him spilling the beans on the whole thing. Some sort of NDA I suppose.
The title's tarnished no matter what happens now. I'm sure that won't bother Max much as the yes men that surround him will never say so but it'll always be remembered as the one that Hamilton was robbed of.
That’s the thing – Max didn’t drive superbly – he was bloody awful all through the year culminating in the penultimate GP which also put the stewards into the spotlight. Had he not been so much of an aggressive, selfish sod all year, maybe the stewards wouldn’t have felt so pressured to do something.
I think a lot of people agree that Max is too aggressive and steps over the line quite often, but nobody seriously denies that he is incredibly talented and has put in some stunning drives this year. The irony is that if Max just learned to be a bit more patient and collect the points instead of pushing everything to the absolute limit, he would have wrapped up the title quite comfortably. That's what kept Hamilton in contention - he was willing to back out of potential crashes and collect the points. They both drove superbly, Hamilton a bit more intelligently, Verstappen pushing to the limit without looking at the bigger picture. I wish that Hamilton had won the title, but Verstappen is a deserving champion.
Any desire to continue working in motorsport will likely depend on keep his mouth shut, assuming there is even something to tell other than "i ****ed it guys"
then what’s stopping him spilling the beans on the whole thing.
I honestly don't think there's much to spill - it's pretty open that the "let them race" mantra had been agreed and then masi just made some poor decisions under pressure. A lot of his alleged failings for other issues during the year are actually decisions from the race stewards.
Anyhow, MGU-H is gone from 2026 but are VW still interested in joining the grid?
Yeah probably, but it wouldn’t surprise me if there is at least some degree of ‘setting the tone’ for how races are run by others in the FIA.
Lewis was robbed, but I can't blame anything on Max so to take it away from him now would also be iffy, could sharing the title be a possibility, that seems a fair outcome in an ideal world.
Or is it like Highlander.
And that just makes it look even more like a deal is being brokered. And fair play to Lewis, I genuinely think he is prepared to accept what it is and move on and Merc will be content with the constructors and the knowledge that the FIA have conceded they cocked up.
Now, if it were the constructors title with all the money that goes with it and Merc being able to remove Lewis from the action by saying it is a team decision. I am sure that would be different.
Yep, that won't do Lewis any harm. Probably the best outcome for all.
Perhaps Lewis has told Merc he still expects his WC win bonus though. But, yes for sure, his reputation as one of the GOATs is enhanced by this more than it would be than having 8 titles with one of those won in the courts. Indeed the latter may tarnish his image some.
And Merc started their 2022 car a fair while ago so maybe he is quietly confident the 8th will still come. Team orders to Russell that he is No2 until that point and then he can go for it himself?