MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
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The real hero of this race was whoever designed the Merc front wing. Two big whacks and still setting fastest laps.
Well, 11 out of 10 for structural engineering, maybe a question mark over the aero 😄
But yeah, I thought the same, both times I was expecting a new nose to be needed. Clearly they’ve been building cars with Max as a design parameter 😉
The Merc wings just flex out of the way don’t they, or so I heard.
I was slightly surprised that Hamilton wasn’t black flagged due to the obvious damage to the wing
You would only be black flagged if Race Control were worried that the car was damaged in such a way that it was either dangerous to drive or had the potential of shedding bodywork so as to be a a danger to others.
A bit of damage to a front wing endplate is not dangerous and the main elements of the wing were structurally sound and it did not look like it was going to fail and spew bits of carbon fibre all over the place.
I was slightly surprised that Hamilton wasn’t black flagged due to the obvious damage to the wing.
Why would they do that? I don't ever recall a car being black flagged in similar circumstances.
. Verstappen is clearly very talented but his behaviour is often childish and petulant
I think he just "reacts" too instinctively, even after what? 6 years, he's still treating every challenge as if he'll never get a chance to defend or attack again the next lap or next corner. Every move seems to be life or death for him, and there doesn't seem to be a appreciation that the race may still have 20-30 laps to go.
The other heroes were the marshalls who had to scamper onto to the track to pick up all the bits and bobs that had fallen off the cars.
Surely, some kind of hoover crane would be safer/quicker?
if Hamilton has the race pace and qualifies first then he will likely play the long game and let Verstappen past in any kamikaze manoeuvres then look to get past during pit stops.
No chance, Merc won't want to be anywhere near Max, if they have a choice.
Well, 11 out of 10 for structural engineering, maybe a question mark over the aero 😄
Shows that the end plates are only there because the rules mandate them, down to the square millimetre!
But yes, they were both lucky to have drivable cars after collision
And this is the root cause of the problem. Max needed some grown-ups to learn him some manners when he was a young-un.
https://twitter.com/redbullracing/status/1467798757232324614
How the hell is Max shortlisted for world sports personality of the year?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/sports-personality/59505132
Made the mistake of watching the C4 highlights: DC’s commentary is unbearable.
I’ll not do that again.
@WCA
Was L15 not the one where Hamilton bumped Verstappen off the track at the restart? (Followed by Verstappen rejoining where he saw fit)
And L16 the one where Hamilton “leant” on Ocon at the restart?
when all I am doing is trying to look at it neutrally
Oh TJ, you did actually make LOL with that. Mrs Boblo thought I was having a fit... 😝
I don't really give a shiny sh1t which of the playboys wins but do think some of the antics look to undermine the old spirit of fair play. However, I recognise that I'm not sitting in said motah and don't really know enough about fair play in this context to recognise it when I see it.
Ooo, self awareness... 🙃
It did, although Senna in 1990 did it as revenge for 1989, as much for Balestre screwing him over as Prost’s manoeuvre. So while it was absolutely a deliberate crash to win the title, it was to put right a previous injustice (at least in Senna and many other peoples mind
That's exactly correct. You have an excellent memory sir!
Two wrongs don't necessarily make a right though.....
Halfway though lap 50, Ocon was only 13 sec behind Max.
If Bottas hadn’t battled with Ocon, Max would have ended up third. It’s bonkers. 😜
They didn’t know at the time, but that would have changed next week a massive amount.
They didn’t know at the time, but that would have changed next week a massive amount.
You could well be right but I can't help feeling the 10 second penalty was the maximum they could give whilst still been immaterial.
Two wrongs don’t necessarily make a right though…..
You’re right. I was kind of ok with that one though 😀
[i]@WCA
Was L15 not the one where Hamilton bumped Verstappen off the track at the restart? (Followed by Verstappen rejoining where he saw fit)
And L16 the one where Hamilton “leant” on Ocon at the restart?[/i]
Possibly my subconscious bias.
On L15 I saw it as Hamilton clearly ahead and driving around the corner when Max didn't try to make the corner but did try to block Lewis.
L16 It was a really good start for Verstappen, no dispute. I will have to re-watch to see the Hamilton perspective on the squeeze on Ocon. You may well be right.
I will have to re-watch to see the Hamilton perspective on the squeeze on Ocon.
I’d have to rewatch it too, I think, but my recollection is that Hamilton was the jam in a sandwich and pretty much had nowhere to go. Too many incidents to accurately recall, though 😂
<blockquoteHalfway though lap 50, Ocon was only 13 sec behind Max.
The post-race interview with Ocon was one of my highlights of the race. Clearly he had a fabulous day and I'm a big fan (of him and Renault).
I'd have penalised Max at least one point to clean up next week's final race.
Halfway though lap 50, Ocon was only 13 sec behind Max.
If Bottas hadn’t battled with Ocon, Max would have ended up third. It’s bonkers. 😜
They didn’t know at the time, but that would have changed next week a massive amount.
It would have been quite a scene if the penalty had dropped Verstappen back behind either / both Bottas and Ocon!
As it was it was very much a "yeah whatever" type of penalty in that it didn't affect anything in the slightest.
I’d have penalised Max at least one point to clean up next week’s final race.
Not a bad shout. Assuming they'll be fighting for the higher placings, then with at least 2 points per position difference that point would be overturned. Although fastest lap could then re-equalise as well.
It also assumes LH wouldn't punt MV off to win by a point.
Wonder what team orders will be for the second drivers, and the junior teams as well......might need to treble the number of stewards to deal with the demolition derby potential.
I’d have penalised Max at least one point to clean up next week’s final race.
Would have been my preferred position - winner takes all and the one more likely to cause a crash can't risk DNF.
Interesting article on the BBC about the possibilities for next weekend:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59542219
I really wanted Lewis to be one point ahead going into the last race. That would mean both him and MV would have to play very fair in order to get ahead to win the WDC as a crash for either of them would be curtains.
As it is MV has nothing to lose, he can pile straight into LH and win the WDC.
As it is MV has nothing to lose, he can pile straight into LH and win the WDC.
I don't really believe he would do that (I know, I know) – if he did he would forever be remembered for cheating his way to winning it and I don't honestly believe he wants that to happen.
Yeah, I don't think Max would do it intentionally. But being level on points does mean that he can aggressively/dangerously (delete as appropriate for your viewpoint) barrel into corners, safe in the knowledge that if they both crash out, he'll have the championship. That does play into his hands somewhat, given his actions in Brazil and Jeddah.
It also seems that HAM is the guy in form with the faster car, so:
I can’t see VER winning without some in-race controversy next week.
In a clean race next weekend, the championship is HAM's, IMvHO.
I also thought a 1pt penalty would sort that out. Otherwise there is a very real chance that the championship is going to be decided by the stewards next week, which I'm sure the FIA do not want.
Yeah I doubt he would do it in a calculated manner but when he's doing his usual 'who's going to brake first, not me' stuff it's likely to be in the back of his mind, especially as he's largely got away with it so far. And I think it's fair to say impulse control is not a strength of his.
They'll both have to keep it clean - there's an even chance Max could come off worse in a crash situation and Lewis then limps his car home and rolls in 10th!
It also seems that HAM is the guy in form with the faster car
In form, and cooler under pressure, but not necessarily in the faster car. Remember Max was around half a second up in Q3 until the wall intervened.
Mercedes will presumably be putting all their energy into trying to secure a lights-to-flag victory with the fallback option being an undercut—they must know they need to keep Lewis away from Max if at all possible.
Thing is, I’ve never found Abu Dhabi interesting enough to have bothered comprehending the strategic options, so I don’t know what the practical options really look like 🙂
They’ll both have to keep it clean – there’s an even chance Max could come off worse in a crash situation and Lewis then limps his car home and rolls in 10th!
To be fair, if they come together then the chances of Max having a DNF while Lewis finishes in the points are—while not negligible—way less than evens.
I don’t think he’s a probabilities kind of guy, though. Schumacher would have calculated all that; I think Max is just wired no-holds-barred permanently, and the next race will only galvanise that instinct. He won’t give an inch, and he’ll take it to full contact if needed.
I’d have to rewatch it too, I think, but my recollection is that Hamilton was the jam in a sandwich and pretty much had nowhere to go. Too many incidents to accurately recall, though 😂
That's very much how I recall it. Ham didn't have anywhere to go as MV "stuck it up the inside" and Occon was trying to go round the outside so he was the jam in an uncomfortable sandwich. I personally felt that MV's move on that restart was reckless and would require the other drivers to take evasive action to prevent a collision - a favoured tactic of Max. Which Horner seems perfectly happy with when it's Max doing it and getting away with it but is decidedly unhappy when other drivers do it to Max and he comes off worse.
I also agree that Max should have had the title all sealed and delivered by now. However, he does seem to not grasp the concept of playing the long game. Over the course of the season he has driven superbly well for a lot of the time however, when the action gets tight and tense he tends to be quite aggressive and, for me, has frequently over-stepped the mark between hard racing and dangerous / reckless driving. It's races like yesterday and Brazil that make me hope Ham wins it next week. On balance, if Max wins the race he will have deserved to win the championship - but there is still a sour taste to it. If Ham wins the race it will also be both an incredible achievement in the context of the sport (8 times WDC) as well as the season for him and Merc.
With the class and composure that Lewis Hamilton has shown this season he is in danger of dragging the sport into repute.
I personally felt that MV’s move on that restart was reckless and would require the other drivers to take evasive action to prevent a collision
Conversely, I thought it was extremely well-judged. Hamilton had to move right to prevent Ocon holding the outside line; Max saw this coming and took advantage of the resulting gap, then it was basically up to Hamilton and Ocon to sort it out. Absolutely the right thing for Max to have done.
Thing is, I’ve never found Abu Dhabi interesting
Don't forget they have made some fairly significant changes to the track this year. It will definitely be much faster but whether overtaking opportunities have been improved I don't know.
With the class and composure that Lewis Hamilton has shown this season he is in danger of dragging the sport into repute.
Good point. He has left the brattish image well behind him now and I respect him far more than I did a few years ago. He has done well to grow into a well rounded human being considering the highly unusual and high pressured upbringing he has had.
MV has now, in 6 years of racing, managed to accumulate more penalty points on his super license than any other driver including Grosjean. Max has a total of 28pts. The next nearest is Grosjean with 21. LH who has been racing longer is at 10. The system was introduced in 2014 and MV didn't start until 2015.
This year the Redbull team drivers have the highest pts (7 each) of anyone except Yuki Tsunoda, who runs a real risk of being a Japanese stereotype. By comparison, LH has 2.
"Conversely, I thought it was extremely well-judged. Hamilton had to move right to prevent Ocon holding the outside line; "
Or counter conversely, Leiws was trying to stay as far away from Max as possible? Which was his strategy for the whole race I think!
Plus, knowing Max was on mediums, perhaps Lewis was prepared to let him go and catch him later in the race when the tyres deteriorated?
I’d have penalised Max at least one point to clean up next week’s final race.
Is that even an option under the rules and penalties as they are?
We've ended up in this position because the rules have been badly / unfairly / inconsistently applied at other races this year (notably Brazil as mentioned by others) and it's in a grey area where (some) drivers are doing as much as they think they can get away with and then relying on the team to sort it out over the radio with Massi while howling in disbelief that they can't get away with it.
If you knew you were going to get a 10" penalty that, in the grand scale of things, meant absolutely nothing to the end result, would it affect what you did? Compared to if you knew you were going to lose 1 WC point.
It's a similar argument to the restricted number of gearboxes / engines etc. Yes you can take more but it means a grid penalty - however if you choose your circuit wisely and play to the strengths of your car and driver, you can negate that which swings the ball firmly back into your court and means that the rich teams can use more parts. If using extra engines meant points off the Constructors Championships, I'm willing to bet that reliability would suddenly be far higher!
Perhaps one thing to come out of this is its shown how poor the rules can be with too much open to interpretation and too much room to game the rules which may lead to a clean up of the rules?
Here's the 2 restarts if anyone wants to refresh their memory
(the onboard and overheads later in the videos are more useful than the initial shots).
In my view, for the first one - Hamilton gets a much better start than Verstappen and is clear of Max as they reach the braking zone (so Max isn't entitled to any space on the outside), but Verstappen brakes later and tries to hold on round the outside anyway. Hamilton takes a legitimate line, running out to the apex kerb at T2. There's no contact but rather than yield Verstappen runs off the track and rejoins at a very acute angle forcing Hamilton to avoid him as he comes back on so he can retake the place (contrast to Bottas rejoining just behind him)
In the second restart Ocon is slightly slower away than the other two, meaning that Hamilton and Ocon are side by side into T1 and so Ocon is entitled to some space. Verstappen brakes way later than either of them and sends his car into the disappearing wedge at the T1 apex, it's a high risk move that relies on the cars in front realising what's happening and avoiding a collision. Hamilton tries to avoid him but sandwiched between the two hits Ocon (who probably had no idea Max was also on the inside) and bumps him out wide instead. Verstappen then takes the same T2 apex kerb that Hamilton did on the first restart, making sure anyone on who'd survived on his outside had no space.
A big shout has to go out to Hamilton's sports psychologist. Have you noticed how often he makes a bee line for her immediately after the race?
By the time he's doing the post match interviews he's completely centred, having already put the days events behind him, ready for the next race already.
Toto plays the perfect counter to the sports psychologist as well, allowing emotions to get the better of himself so that Lewis doesn't.
That’s Angela Cullen, actually his physio but she does a lot more too nowadays…….
You’re right. I was kind of ok with that one though
Yeah I'm with you there. Justice was (belatedly) done.
“Lewis has driven up the back of Max, which we have to go and explain in front of the stewards,” said the Red Bull chief before his driver received a post-race penalty.
“Max was trying to give the place up, we informed Race Control we were going to give the place up, he lifted off – you can hear I think Lewis has actually lifted off, I don’t know if he was messing around with the DRS line – but you know, it was clear we were giving the place up.”
I’d have loved to hear Christian “explain” the brake telemetry. Plonker.
Toto rational and measured as usual.
Verstappen runs off the track and rejoins at a very acute angle forcing Hamilton to avoid him as he comes back on
That's the issue right there, re-joining the track in a dangerous manner and deliberately forcing the guy who stayed on the track to take avoiding action.
MV overtake in the later re-start was spot on, he was just much later on the brakes, and if you notice Ocon came back onto the track at a much shallower angle and later round T2. in other words the correct way to re-join.
I'm as much a fan of F1 politics as the racing, so yesterday's race was just fantastic!!
Two of the all time greats going at it hammer & tongue on track and all of the pitwall communications being broadcast - listening to Massi negotiating with Red Bull about who should give what back and then Massi realising he'd messed up with the first offer
Then watching the team principles sprouting what ever BS after the race, seeing Max's utter self belief that he is right, but also watching Lewis's very calm and thoughtful reactions.
What a season - so much drama on and off the track. A great circuit to really mix things up at a critical time in he championship.
We really are being treated to a stonker of a championship!!!
I wonder if channel 4 will call out Horner for lying about Max breaking and blaming Hamilton for the incident, probably not 🤷♂️
[i]I wonder if channel 4 will call out Horner for lying about Max breaking and blaming Hamilton for the incident, probably not 🤷♂️[/i]
Hasn't David Coultard already pointed this out and explained what a lying whiney man he is and how stupid asnd dangerous some of Max's driving has been this season?
Thought not
I wonder if channel 4 will call out Horner
Steve Jones might (he was very direct at Silverstone) but Coulthard? I very much doubt the Red Bull apologist would do anything to question them.
Sadly, I had to watch the C4 highlights yesterday and the commentary was dire...
At the moment C4 commentary is actually less appealing than just watching the live text commentary on Autosport
The bbc radio 5 commentary is really quite good
I’d agree about 5live commentary- it’s great! They conveyed so much drama, yet when I watched the C4 highlights later they seemed to turn the most exciting and controversial race into boring!
Sadly, I had to watch the C4 highlights yesterday and the commentary was dire…
I watched the sky highlights and C4 as I was bored/injured at home. I wouldn't say the C4 highlights were worse or better.
Coulthard compared the alledged brake test to when Schumacher hit him up the arse in the peeing rain.
Really not the same, his colleague (can't remember her name, I'd necked a few pain pills) was pointing out how if Max was found to be braking, he's in big trouble.
Coulthard largely brushed it aside, as it's reasonable to slow a car using brakes.
It seems the stewards don't agree with Crazy Dave.
Crazy Dave who's still on the payroll at Red Bull as a constult iirc.
The angle Verstappen rejoined the track could have caused carnage and deserved an appropriate penalty instead of just giving Redbull the option to give the position back, Verstappen's driving is right on the edge of legal, the rules need an overhaul to be made a lot clearer before Max kills someone.
Just watching the highlights (well - the f***ing adverts....) on C4 - Coulthard's take is clearly partisan. Is disappoint. 🙁
Just watching the CH4 highlights and I’m chuckling about how awful Coulthard is these days.
I’m sure he wasn’t as bad when he first got behind the microphone. His lack of any criticism of RB is farcical.
Just had a look at the standings, and if Verstappen has all of his points taken away à la Schumacher that would drop Red Bull down to 4th behind McLaren
Well, one result of all these shenanigans, is that I have to get up at 4:30 in the morning this Sunday so I can watch the race live 😳😠
I can't imagine I can maintain a news blackout otherwise
(One of the downsides of living in Vancouver is F1 timezones don't work for me)
Just had a look at the standings, and if Verstappen has all of his points taken away à la Schumacher that would drop Red Bull down to 4th behind McLaren
Schumacher had all his points deducted but Ferrari did not. Pretty much the opposite of what happened to McLaren in 2007, that did cost them a constructors title
I've been watching F1 a good few years.
In those years I've seen last race title deciders featuring Schumacher, Hill, Villeneurve, Irvine, Hakkinen, Alonso, Massa, Hamilton, Vettel, Raikinen, Webber, Rosberg and now Verstappen.
Of those thirteen drivers, each within touching distance of fulfilling a lifetime's ambition, only in the cases of Schumacher and Verstappen have we gone into the race thinking that they might deliberately crash into their rival.
I think that says a lot about Verstappen.
Prost and senna, red and white liveried mclaren japan gp
Think it was first lap.
Am I the only person in the world who would quite like Verstappen to win next week?
Mostly because IMHO it would be good for someone other than Merc to win but a small part of me would like to see the reaction…
I speak as a lapsed F1 fan with no vested interest either way tbh
I’d like someone to take him aside, give him a good shake and then see hi go out and obliterate the field. Can’t see it happening for many different reasons though
On the point of Steve & Coulthard's co presenter...I don't remember seeing her before.
Did they just wheel a woman out for the Saudi GP?
Am I the only person in the world who would quite like Verstappen to win next week?
No, I think about 200 million Dutch people are with you 😁
Am I the only person in the world who would quite like Verstappen to win next week?
If he can win it fairly then fine. But he hasn't raced that way for a good month now so it's odds-on he'll take Lewis out in Abu Dhabi and win it by professional foul.
Prost and senna, red and white liveried mclaren japan gp
Think it was first lap.
Both in Marlboro McLarens in '89, Prost in a Ferrari for the first corner fandango in '90.
On the point of Steve & Coulthard’s co presenter…I don’t remember seeing her before.
Did they just wheel a woman out for the Saudi GP?
If she was the one I heard in the highlights, she was really good! 🙂 Only DC let them down.
She’s Alice Powell from the W series. Has been on before, but conveniently it was Saudi this time!
Am I the only person in the world who would quite like Verstappen to win next week?
I believe the majority of motorsport fans want to see them race hard, but fairly, and whoever wins would be a worthy champion.
What we don’t want is another event, where it’s decided on by the stewards/incidents making everything look like a farce as it did in Saudi.
Prost and senna, red and white liveried mclaren japan gp
Think it was first lap.
1989 - McLaren/McLaren - was nearer the end of the race.
1990 - McLaren/Ferrari - was first lap corner.
I believe the majority of motorsport fans want to see them race hard, but fairly, and whoever wins would be a worthy champion.
What we don’t want is another event, where it’s decided on by the stewards/incidents making everything look like a farce as it did in Saudi
Definitely this. Verstappen winning by professional foul or worse would be such a disappointing way to end one of the best seasons for a very long time
What we don’t want is another event, where it’s decided on by the stewards/incidents making everything look like a farce as it did in Saudi.
This.
It won’t be the stewards decision in the end - who’s ready to wait until January and a sitting of the court of arbitration??
It's been a farce for over a month now with stewards failing to make decisions after Marx's previous indiscretions, leaving the door open for him to do basically whatever he wants.
Am I the only person who thinks that were or not the penultimate race of the season (with all to play for at the last race) Verstappen would have recieved a one race ban for the antics he pulled off with (not) giving the place back.
That was the most petulant, stupid and dangerous piece of (non) driving I have seen since I don't know when. If it had happened earlier in the season I'm sure he'd be sitting out the next race.
Up until Sunday I felt that if Max wins the championship then he deserves it. After that display I don't think he does anymore,
That was the most petulant, stupid and dangerous piece of (non) driving I have seen since I don’t know when. If it had happened earlier in the season I’m sure he’d be sitting out the next race.
Seb v Lewis in Baku a few years back? Ended with Seb intentionally sideswiping Lewis IIRC - at lower speed but equally reckless, and there was a 10s penalty.
Seb v Lewis in Baku a few years back? Ended with Seb intentionally sideswiping Lewis IIRC – at lower speed but equally reckless, and there was a 10s penalty.
Good point
There is a short interview with either Herbert or Hill (Herbert I think) and he noted that even after the race Max said something along the lines of he would still win the WC if neither of them finish.
Herbert felt this was a very significant comment and eluded to the fact that, whilst he may not just straight punt Lewis off the road, he would certainly not back down in any situation where a crash might end both their races.
I hope this is not the case, I really do, for Max's sake as much as anyone's. I get the feeling the rest of the field don't respect him much anyway and that would do it for him in the paddock...
Luckily Abu Dhabi is a very different track. If Lewis can keep out of trouble in the first few laps then he should win it fair and square. Whereas Max will lunge and push like he's on a stag-do karting trip...
I still think it's odds-on that Max will take Lewis out.