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Got to say it took a lot of skill by bottas to do effectively take out both red bulls, chapeau bottas!
F1’s equivalent of a 7-10 split.
Brilliant race, gutted for Seb TBH.
Got to say it took a lot of skill by bottas to do effectively take out both red bulls, chapeau bottas!
Obviously a billiards player.
There needs to be fuel left to sample at the end – if it’s all gone it can’t be tested…
300mm left, I think they said?
Not quite. There needs to be 1 litre available for testing. Only 300ml could be extracted.
Got to say it took a lot of skill by bottas to do effectively take out both red bulls, chapeau bottas!
Maybe he’s lining up a career in billiards for next season? (Edit beaten by 5 seconds! 😂)
Remember the idea a few years to have water sprinklers turn on at random time to spice up races.
If you combine it with a with a new rule whereby one driver is chosen at random to down a line of shots before the race.
I think it’ll add the perfect dose of carnage to mix things up and get the tacticians throwing out the rule book!
THAT. WAS. ****ING. BONKERS. 😲
I know it'll never happen, but if you want exciting races, all you have to do is award equal points for pole position and the race and use a reverse grid.
Pity about Vettel, it's good to see him fighting for a win again.
Feel sorry for Albon having to recreate that all week...
Maldonado to replace Bottas next year at Mercedes, with Mazepin as reserve driver.
FACT
😉
To be honest I reckon Susan Tully will partner Lewis, she appears in this thread more than any other person. 😂😂
Maldonado to replace Bottas next year at Mercedes, with Mazepin as reserve driver.
Maldonado is still in the drivers heads…
"Feel sorry for Albon having to recreate that all week"
Perhaps the FIA could troll RB by asking them to recreate it for the stewards. Rain to be provided by Red Bull tears.
Crikey, Karen Horner's at it again 🤣
https://www.gpblog.com/en/amp/90644/red-bull-on-grid-penalty-bottas-makes-up-for-that-in-two-laps-at-spa.html
"What a great strategy by Mercedes: Valtteri did a super job for them today by taking out both our cars," sore loser much? 🤣
Reading between the lines it sounds like Horner’s idea of “strategy” is for one of the drivers to make a split-second decision to gamble on a dodgy move that has just as much chance of ruining one team’s race as the other. I mean, make of it what you will, but I guess it’s touched a nerve.
Personally I was just gutted that Norris and Leclerc were taken out.
Edit: to be fair to Horner, the quote here is a little different, and followed up by some rather more circumspect and rational points:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.horner-praises-red-bull-crew-for-verstappen-repair-job-after-bottas-does-a.6knHvGmK8453NzGmyx1Ja4.html
Aye, “gpblog” seems a bit suspect. Would be a shame if the cap ended up affecting the championship, don’t think anyone really wanted it for those reasons
Personally I was just gutted that Norris and Leclerc were taken out.
Yes, same here!
Would be a shame if the cap ended up affecting the championship
Would it be out of the question to exclude like for like repairs to damage sustained in crashes from the cap?
I could see something like that being introduced. Maybe either other teams agreeing with the work or the FIA overseeing. In the meantime, there could be some interesting leaps in carbon fibre repair coming!
I would like them to make parts that are stronger and more resilient to at least smaller impacts. Maybe that will come about if they don’t budge on the cost cap. It’s daft that a slight nudge can put someone out of a race or cause a puncture to either car or following cars from sharp debris.
Basically Karen is finding out there isn’t a bottomless piggy bank!!!
Would be a shame if the cap ended up affecting the championship
Financial limitations have always affected it though. Generally, there's only been three or four well-funded teams that could afford to keep throwing new parts at their cars for the complete season and they were the only ones that ever had a shot at winning titles. The others always had to make tough decisions about when to stop development and would have to patch up damaged parts to get through the year. One unlucky weekend with both cars written off could ruin their whole year. What the cost cap has done is put all the teams on the same footing, and the big ones aren't used to having to make those budgeting decisions. The whole point of the cost cap was to affect the championship by limiting the advantage of the big teams, now they're complaining that it's having the intended effect.
As above the "lesser" teams have always been budget capped and arguably run more risk of midfield damage. Horner just needs to put on his big boy pants and get on with the job in hand.
The difference is that now there is no option to scratch around looking for more cash for any team (that is at the cap). As mentioned, none of the teams that hit their personal "cap" in the past were anywhere near the title anyway. So I stand by my comment, see also: when things like mechanicals get in the way of a title fight.
Didn't Toto have a very similar gripe after Russel wiped out Bottas?
Didn’t Toto have a very similar gripe after Russel wiped out Bottas?
He wasn't at all happy with Russell and jokingly threatened to place him in the Renault Clio Cup! 🙂
Binotto has now said the guilty team should pay for the other teams damage. Ridiculous...every claim would end up in court arguing over who was at fault and the real cost of repair.
Red Bull should be careful what they wish for... I honestly can't see Verstappen going to the end of the season without causing an incident himself.
Binotto has now said the guilty team should pay for the other teams damage.
Could you imagine the look on Ron Dennis’s face at Spa in 1998? 🙂
But yeah, that’s just about the best idea anyone’s had to destroy the entire sport, let alone a single team.
As mentioned, none of the teams that hit their personal “cap” in the past were anywhere near the title anyway.
Because they were limited in how much development they could do. Red Bull and Merc have the same budget cap as anyone else. They can afford to repair their cars. The problem is that the money to repair the cars will limit how much they can spend on developing next year's cars. That's exactly the problem that smaller teams had in the past and exactly what the cost cap was supposed to achieve.
Also, I'm pretty sure that Williams in the 90s and Renault in the Alonso championship years had much smaller budgets than Ferrari and McLaren, but they were very careful about managing their budgets. I remember reading an interview with someone from Williams (Patrick Head, perhaps) about the active suspension. Williams used off-the-shelf aerospace hydraulic actuators which cost $5 000 apiece or something, so they refurbished them and reused them. Apparently, Ferrari used to just throw the used ones in the bin, they basically just had no budget limit. The big teams have just gotten lazy and are used to spending their way out of problems.
I know there's not much love for Max on this thread but...Driving the RB to a point (later awarded 2 obviously) with half the floor missing and most of the aero bargeboards on the offside ripped away...and only a few seconds behind the Williams pair (both undamaged)
Props.
It would probably ruin the sport if it became a post-race litigation contest recovering costs from competitors. It's racing. Cars collide, drivers like de Cesaris and Maldonado mangled their own teams' cars frequently. Accident investigations should be about improving driver safety, not recovering costs from competitors.
Didn’t Toto have a very similar gripe after Russel wiped out Bottas?
I'm going to say, I don't think Russell will be in the Mercedes team any day soon as he's got a reputation for being equally "elbows out" as Verstappen, and having just signed a 2 year deal with them, I think Hamilton will say no to it. As after all, who needs that sort of nonsense going on from your team mate. Hamilton will want some-one who's just "Happy to be here" (Like Perez) and understands that his role is to be the No2. I don't think Russell wants to be anyone's No.2
I think you might be right @nickc. I've noticed that Bottas seems to be doing his absolute best to to the team line too, versus his more recalcitrant attitude earlier in the season.
Maybe the 2022 design should be modified to include a giant solid rubber ring round the car, then they could play bumper cars and stop whinging
So do we think Perez will get a second season in the Red Bull?
I'm really not sure what they'll do.
Gasly needs to move somewhere, he can't stay in the 2nd team forever. And next season may be a good time to return to the 1st team as the cars will be a re-set for everyone.
Yuki needs way more experience and Alex is busy doing crash reconstructions! 🙂
No hate for Max here, he's got some growing up to do but so have his mentors, CH, HM and daddy. I reckon most see it as Max being let down badly by those around him. Compare that to Hamilton having his own father, Ron (bit is a whinger still) Dennis, Toto Wolf and Nikki flippin' Lauda in his corner.
You're right nickc, he didn't getting the credit he deserved for dragging a car held together by gaffa tape into the points.
RB have had a nightmare filling the second seat alongside Verstappen, either Verstappen is a genius who can wring amazing performances out of a recalcitrant car, or he has a car designed around him and his specific feedback requirements. Since Ricciardo left, RB have had a habit of putting unpolished, but talented rookies in that second car and we've seen the likes of Albon & Gasly struggle to get on top of it.
Tsunoda is on a shoogly peg. Yes ideally he needs a second season to get more experience but that's not the game Red Bull play with their young drivers.
Perez is an odd one. He seems to perform best on some sort of amazing "recovery" drive where he gets punted off near the start and has to fight his way back to fourth place.
When he starts in fourth he ends up fourth or fifth (after getting passed by Norris near the end of the race).
I'd say he's basically at the same level as Bottas. Bottas is better on a Saturday but struggles if he finds himself out of position. Perez isn't as good at qualifying but is good enough in the race to get back to his customary fourth place most of the time.
thols2
I think you're missing my point a bit, which is simply that crash damage repercussions from earlier in the season is a crap thing to get in the way of a title fight. Same as when a random puncture or whatever gets in the way
nickc
I’m going to say, I don’t think Russell will be in the Mercedes team any day soon as he’s got a reputation for being equally “elbows out”
That didn't really have much to do with the Russell-Bottas crash though. OTOH putting a wheel on the grass and going into him like a spear.....
MV driving the damaged car was no biggie, it’s not as if he did much on the track afterwards.
Compare to Alonso who pretty much dragged kicking and screaming a dead Mcclaren with 2 punctures into the pits at Baku, the much more significant damage to the car went unrepaired yet he still outperformed his team mate.
Not the first time he’s done it either. Legend.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/43973625.amp
I never thought much of Alonso in the past but it turns out he is a properly nice guy with a racing mentality and ability most other racers would pay good money for!
I know there’s not much love for Max on this thread
I think everyone holds him in very high respect for his driving ability, but he is a very aggressive driver and seems to expect other drivers to let him through to avoid an accident. He came across as very immature and petulant when he first joined Red Bull, but then he matured and started driving like true title contender. This whole Silverstone incident really showed him and Red Bull at their worst. It was a racing incident between two guys battling for the title. Hamilton was judged to be more at fault, but it wasn't a deliberate crash on his part. Verstappen had a faster car so conceding the place to Hamilton would have been the smart thing to do. Afterwards, Red Bull were entitled to a bit of grumbling about it, but then they should have shut up and got on with preparing for Hungary. The Albon recreation was just laughable, did they really expect anyone to take that dumb shit seriously?
I don’t think Russell will be in the Mercedes team any day soon as he’s got a reputation for being equally “elbows out” as Verstappen, and having just signed a 2 year deal with them, I think Hamilton will say no to it.
Hamilton doesn't make the decision and doesn't have a veto over his teammate. Russell is very fast, teams don't care if drivers are "elbows out" if they are fast. I think it's almost certain that Russell will replace Bottas next year.
Red Bull are not going to promote Tsunoda next year. Gasly would be the obvious candidate, but I think they've already ruled that out. Bottas is the only other candidate that I can think of besides retaining Perez. My money is on sticking with Perez.
I just don’t like MV cos he’s turned into a nasty potty mouthed violent bully like his dad.
Couldn’t give a crap about his driving ability.
Still not sure how he got away with physically attacking another driver in the pits, I would have banned him for life for that, there’s no excuse.
Hamilton won’t care less who partners him. He tends to work on his own and if the threat is that someone will be faster than him he’ll just see that as a challenge.
Villeneuve at it again. Stroll to Merc in a swap with Bottas! 😀
https://www.planetf1.com/news/jv-lance-stroll-mercedes-idea/
b230ftw
Free MemberMV driving the damaged car was no biggie, it’s not as if he did much on the track afterwards.
Probably an absolute doddle and he just wasn't trying
Hamilton doesn’t make the decision and doesn’t have a veto over his teammate.
I'd be very surprised indeed if he doesn't have a direct say (which personally I think he does) or that the team won't listen "very carefully" to any suggestions he makes.
Hamilton won’t care less who partners him
I think he'd care very much if Russell (like Verstappen has a habit of doing) putting his car in a position where you're either forced into a crash or forced to avoid, and ceding the place...
Hamilton.... doesn’t have a veto over his teammate
You can't possibly know that...just cos that's what they say in public. I'd be amazed if Hamilton doesn't have a huge influence on who is next teammate will be (formally or otherwise)
Stroll to Merc in a swap with Bottas!
I've heard the Stroll to Mercedes rumour before TBF, it pops up reasonably frequently. Stroll snr and Wolff are friends apparently, and after all, it's not like Stroll is unfamiliar with the car!
I’d be amazed if Hamilton doesn’t have a huge influence on who is next teammate will be
Oh, they'll certainly listen to his opinion, and he seems to be very happy having Bottas as teammate, but the team will make a decision based on what they think is best for the team. Hamilton cannot veto another driver if the team decide that's who they want, especially when you see how impressive Russell has been this year and how unimpressive Bottas has.
Perez goes well on hard tyres on long stints while others pit around him.
Hope Gasly gets a chance somewhere else. He's in a good environment a the moment whereas RB seems a bit poisonous unless you're MV.
Hamilton cannot veto another driver if the team decide that’s who they want
again, how do you know? for all we know he could have an explicit veto written into his contract
Hope Gasly gets a chance somewhere else. He’s in a good environment a the moment whereas RB seems a bit poisonous unless you’re MV
yeah he shouldn't go back there even if he's offered it. he's making noises suggesting he would but I guess that's to make himself more saleable elsewhere
for all we know he could have an explicit veto written into his contract
He doesn't.
Maybe you could have answered the important part in the question, the part that you failed to quote.
again, how do you know?
I think thols2 is actually Toto.
Or Lewis.
Because Hamilton is not part of the management team, he's an employee. A very important employee, but he's not hired to be part of the management team. They will listen to his opinions, especially on matters relating to the car, but the managers make the ultimate decisions. That's how Mercedes is organized, as a business, run by business people. So, they probably wouldn't hire a driver that Hamilton had a good reason to object to (somebody who engaged in racist trolling online, for example), but that's kinda moot anyway because Merc wouldn't consider anyone who didn't behave professionally on track and off track. George Russell has not behaved in any way that Hamilton would have a genuine reason to object. Being a good driver is not a reason that Hamilton could raise as an objection - the Merc management are not going to have an employee tell them they cannot hire somebody because they are too good. Does anyone seriously believe that Merc will let Hamilton refuse to drive alongside someone because he's afraid of being beaten?
Let's have a think who Hamilton's team mates have been!...
• Alonso
• Kovalainen
• Button
• Rosberg
• Bottas
...three World Champions, one OK driver in Kovalainen, and very good driver in Bottas.
I'd say Lewis doesn't care who sits on the opposite side of the garage.
I’d say Lewis doesn’t care who sits on the opposite side of the garage.
Exactly.
Quote from Toto at the Styrian GP a few weeks ago...
Speaking in today’s FIA press conference, Wolff said any discussions regarding who will drive alongside Hamilton at the team will be held openly but primarily with whichever driver would fill that role. "Lewis is part of the team and has always been in the inner circle of decision making because simply we value his opinion,” Wolff said. “And in the same way, when we’re talking about drivers, there’s nothing we’re not sharing with him. It’s transparent.
That, for me at least indicates that if Lewis had strong opinions about a driver, it would carry more than a little weight
Does anyone seriously believe that Merc will let Hamilton refuse to drive alongside someone because he’s afraid of being beaten?
I don't think it's that, we see what happens when drivers who have little to no responsibility currently suddenly have the pressure of having to routinely put a car on the first couple of rows. (see Albon and Gasly) I think in Russels' case if I was Hamilton I'd be worried about him driving recklessly.
I’d say Lewis doesn’t care who sits on the opposite side of the garage.
As long as he comes out on top...Of that list he had a fraught/difficult relationship with Alonso, Button and Rosberg.. Button even says in his autobiography that Hamilton was clearly annoyed/peeved by his arrival at Malaren and was clearly worried that Button would shift the focus of the team away from him. Hamilton a Rosberg don't speak after 18 years of friendship after their time together at Mercedes.
I'd imagine Hamilton can do without the distraction of a team mate that he has to think about
if Lewis had strong opinions about a driver, it would carry more than a little weight
That's not the same thing as having a veto. It's pretty hard to see any reason to object to Russell. Hamilton likes having Bottas as a teammate, but Russell looks to be outstandingly fast and that's what matters to Merc. Sure they'll talk to Hamilton, but they will hire the best driver they can find. If they decide that Russell is the best available, they'll ignore Hamilton.
Hamilton a Rosberg don’t speak after 18 years of friendship after their time together at Mercedes.
That feud was pretty childish, but Rosberg was a bit of a dick. I don't think I'd really want to hang out with either of them, to be honest, they don't sound like fun dudes.
If they decide that Russell is the best available, they’ll ignore Hamilton
If you're right and Russell is in the Mercedes, it'll be exciting times ahead! I get the point you're making that teams don't care as long as a driver is fast...I think they will care if Russell starts with the sorts of driving he earned a rep for in the lower formulas alongside Hamilton and it starts to eat into the budget
either Verstappen is a genius who can wring amazing performances out of a recalcitrant car, or he has a car designed around him and his specific feedback requirements
Well, if you’re the former then you get given the latter, so it’s most probably both.
On the Mercedes second seat, I don’t doubt that Hamilton gets to have his input, but fundamentally the team know that he’s now in his 15th year in F1 and has a long and growing list of side projects. He’s not going to be hanging around like Kimi just hoovering up money because the young driver programmes aren’t delivering; personally I think they’ll need to start getting Russell properly bedded in before long.
And Bottas’s total reversal of his petulant driving earlier in the year could imply one of two things: it could mean he’s angling for a new wingman contract, or it could mean he knows he’s moving on next year and will look better being the consomethinge team player than deluding himself that he’s ever going to win a title with Mercedes.
Second seat for Red Bull has to be Perez, I think. They know Gasly will want to compete with Max but won’t be able to, and they wouldn’t let him anyway—they were protective enough of Vettel, they’re doubly so of Verstappen—whereas Perez is happy enough in the second driver role, he just needs to get on top of the car more consistently.
And—especially in light of Honda’s withdrawal—I’d wonder whether Tsunoda is barely clinging on to his Alpha Tauri seat, the way he’s handling everything. Judging by the radio, running him in a team must be like pumping Nigel Mansell full of amphetamines and giving him a megaphone, but without the ballsy drives that make it worthwhile.
And—especially in light of Honda’s withdrawal—I’d wonder whether Tsunoda is barely clinging on to his Alpha Tauri seat,
My guess is that Red Bull want to keep Honda as a potential technical partner or sponsor. I think a lot of people within Honda wanted to continue but were overruled by the board (who have decided to focus on decarbonization). The engine program along with some Japanese technical staff has been transferred to Red Bull, but I'm sure Honda retain IP ownership. There are a lot of F1 fans in Japan and they are really proud of Honda's achievements, so pumping $50 million into the Red Bull teams to keep the Honda name on the cars is probably not a big deal for the Honda marketing budget. I'm pretty sure Tsunoda is there because there are people within Honda who want to stay involved and are willing to pay for it.
Dude seems pretty determined to make himself unhireable.
Seidl thinks Horner's a dick too
And I definitely will not go in the direction Christian is going, mentioning in every second sentence the cost cap and how much you get hurt by it by every accident on the track
Ticktum is one of those people who cannot seem to be able to help himself and rarely misses an opportunity to sabotage his own career.
So far we've seen the F4 race where he overtook ten cars under the safety car to t-bone a rival and nerf them off the track, accusations toward Mick Schumacher of cheating, getting hammered with his equally graceless then g/f and being abusive on social media, an ill considered remark that he might intentionally crash into a rival and allegations that he physically assaulted an engineer.
He must've consistently pissed someone off at Williams to be ejected mid-year like this.
Dan Ticktum dropped mid-season from Williams
"wow, what a surprise, didn't see that coming" Said no-one ever. Wasn't he kicked of the Red Bull programme for...er...being a dick?
nickc
“wow, what a surprise, didn’t see that coming” Said no-one ever. Wasn’t he kicked of the Red Bull programme for…er…being a dick?
Yeah, also known as Devon Butler if you've played F1 2019.
His crash in 2015 should have been a lifetime ban imo. Proper 🔔🔚
Dan Ticktum, the guy who makes Tommy Byrne look like a marketing man’s golden boy…
I may have missed it here, but questions are being raised about Spa's again safety after another massive crash last weekend in the GT race. Absolutely amazing no one was hurt.
Absolutely amazing no one was
hurtkilled.
Jeez, that's a really bad one...
I wonder if that spot would be better off with the barriers that are designed to "catch" the car, techpro I think they're called, as the problem there was that the car that crashed initially bounced back onto the track off of the tyre wall.
The only other options I can think of are moving the bank back and reprofiling the crest so it isn't blind which are huge jobs, or tightening eau rouge so that the cars are slower through Raidillon, which would make me sad.
as the problem there was that the car that crashed initially bounced back onto the track off of the tyre wall.
That and either yellows not being shown immediately or the following cars not heeding them (sufficiently) The car which was hit had already come to a halt, the following cars must have seen something amiss up ahead but kept their foot in, I know it's blind but there was a.lot of tyre smoke and then (presumably?) yellows
[Edit] watched it again and there really wasn't much time before the second impact with the other car but that second car clearly hadn't lifted, never mind braked, and he must have seen the initial impact
Same place as the crash which killed Hubert 2 years ago, and very similar in that a car rebounded into the track before being collected by another. They have to change something here - despite it being one of the classic sections of track it has simply too dangerous as it stands.
Needs big run offs on both sides do cars that go off the track stay off the track. A big job with the trees and grandstands etc. but how else can they keep the layout there.
thegreatape
Needs big run offs on both sides do cars that go off the track stay off the track. A big job with the trees and grandstands etc. but how else can they keep the layout there.
They're putting gravel in on one side to meet bike regs I think, not sure if anything can really be done on the other given the building is there. The real issue as I see it is that the top part is entirely blind.
PS Anyone remember kimi going flat throguh the smoke there? People said it was brave at the time. I always thought it was pure madness.
Yup, I always thought it was a dumb move - but then the striking thing about most racing drivers/riders is their complete lack of imagination. You or I look at situations like that and imagine all the ways things could go wrong, those scenarios never even enter their heads.
It's also why I'm a huge fan of Le Mans style slow zones rather than double waved yellows - it gives the drivers a proscribed delta that they must be over in a given area, and if they're under it they get a drive-through.
PS Anyone remember kimi going flat throguh the smoke there? People said it was brave at the time. I always thought it was pure madness.
Was actually the first thing I thought of when I was the video from last weekend.
I know a lot of people think Nascar is pretty neanderthal, but I think I'd be too terrified to drive one of those things at those speeds, let alone race in a pack of a couple of dozen of them.
love this. Interesting to see how much the drivers know about their sport