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Can't be long for Mercedes now, old Valterri
https://www.planetf1.com/news/valtteri-bottas-team-orders-spanish-gp/
Always pleasing when the geeks doing the sums back home behind their laptops produce a strategy, and the team act on that recommendation. That’s a seriously high functioning team.
Can’t be long for Mercedes now, old Valterri
I don't think they'll drop him mid-season...too disrupting for the team.
You’d have some sympathy for Bottas’s stubbornness if (a) he hadn’t spent the entire race being clearly slower than Hamilton, never mind the strategy, (b) he hadn’t spend the past few years proving he’s not going to win a championship, (c) he’d managed to get the fastest lap given that he had fresh tyres and the fastest car on the track, and (d) he’d managed to put up more than half a dozen corners’ defence before his bullishness got kicked into the dust anyway, but it’s a tough stance to pull off when you’re getting rinsed race after race and unfortunately he’s just made himself look a complete dick.
The “you’re gaining two tenths on Verstappen, at this pace you’ll catch him on the last lap” radio message was hilarious. I’m not sure whether I winced more at that or at his driving. Meanwhile Hamilton seems to have found yet another level.
That aside, for once I have high hopes of needing the edge of my seat for Monaco. A possible swing to Red Bull and Max is two wins down so he’ll be merciless; meanwhile the midfield is as tight as you like and everyone’s going to have to find their way past Mazepin (assuming he doesn’t stuff it into the barriers at Loews on the first lap). Five quid on multiple safety cars and another five on some sort of fireworks that set the season properly alight. In fact possibly at Ste Dévote on lap 1.
You're forgetting that they know that they could drop Russell in that car and he'd be no worse immediately. My guess is Bottas has already been told he's unlikely to be in that car next year and has decided to throw a hissy fit.
So in the alternate scenario Lewis could have stopped the lap after Max's first (slow) stop, emerged in the lead and then he clearly had the pace to pull a full pit stop clear of Max, come in for fresh Softs a few laps from the end try to set fastest lap and gain an extra point on top of his 25 from the weekend. Did the Merc strategists really get it right?
So in the alternate scenario Lewis could have stopped the lap after Max’s first (slow) stop, emerged in the lead
Wasn't the problem that if he had pitted after Max's first stop that he would have come out behind Perez?
With hindsight I reckon he'd have got past Perez easier than Bottas 😀
So, if STW thinks Bottas must go, who does it think should take his place and give Hamilton a run for his money ?
To me it seems Hamilton will beat anyone, even if they are in the same car. So anyone joining Merc will end up being moaned at just like Bottas seems to be now.
Bascially Bottas has one job and thats to give Merc the constructors championship - which he has done every year. Merc can only have one winner, which they do. So why would Merc spoil this.
The only driver who beat Hamilton was Rosberg, and that caused problems for the team.
If I was Toto Id leave the line up as it is, that way they win the constructors and the drivers championships.
If I was Toto Id leave the line up as it is, that way they win the constructors and the drivers championships.
I agree, for Mercedes it's a winning formula, Bottas has pretty much been a team player in a "team/not a team" sport for ages now, I'd forgive a bit of truculence every now and again, it must be pretty frustrating.
Bascially Bottas has one job and thats to give Merc the constructors championship – which he has done every year. Merc can only have one winner, which they do. So why would Merc spoil this.
Exactly. Merc are very happy with Bottas. He's very close to Hamilton in qualifying, which means they have two cars to play with for strategy. He's not as good a race driver, but Hamilton is one of the very best drivers ever, so that's not a disqualification. He works well with the team, that's their main concern. It's possible that Russell will turn out to be better than Bottas, but putting him in there mid-season is a huge risk. It's much safer to stick with Bottas and there's pretty much zero chance that Merc will dump him mid-year if he's regularly qualifying and finishing races on the podium.
I think Bottas' frustration is understandable. It must be bloody soul destroying to have possibly the GOAT as your team mate.
But he is being remunerated pretty well by Merc (circa $10m a year) and realistically would he have won yesterday if he'd been Merc No 1 driver? Without Lewis, Mercedes would have no victories this season.
Oh and can someone sort out the track layout at Barcelona. There is literally a better track already there, they just need to delete the nobby little chicane at the end of the lap.
Yeah, agreed, Bottas is still the right guy in that seat, he just made himself look a bit daft trying to make a point when he's not having the season to back that point up, even if it is only round 4. But as noted above, it must suck being in the same car as either Hamilton or Verstappen and occasionally you're going to want to convince yourself that you're equal to them. Silly way to do it, though: either you get passed in the space of a few corners and your point is completely undermined, or you manage to keep him behind and wreck Lewis and Merc's race completely. Lose/lose.
So in the alternate scenario Lewis could have stopped the lap after Max’s first (slow) stop, emerged in the lead and then he clearly had the pace to pull a full pit stop clear of Max, come in for fresh Softs a few laps from the end try to set fastest lap and gain an extra point on top of his 25 from the weekend. Did the Merc strategists really get it right?
He wouldn't have had that pace if he'd had to look after a set of mediums until a few laps from the end (ie eke out an additional 12-13 laps from them, a 50% increase). I confess I wondered why they kept Hamilton out after Max's slow stop, which would have let Hamilton come back out a couple of seconds in the lead, but all became clear at the second stop: clearly they'd planned it well in advance. Did they get it right? They took the lead with 6 laps to go, so yes. But there probably aren't many drivers who could make that strategy work (Bottas was nearly a second off Hamilton's pace on new mediums after their first stops), which is perhaps why it looks so audacious.
and realistically would he have won yesterday if he’d been Merc No 1 driver?
It's an impossible question, and really a bit unfair it's not what he's there for He's been second behind perhaps the GOAT, in a car that even Hamilton has said "You can't just turn up, jump in, and win with" By all accounts it's fast but it's a handful. He picks up wins were he can, and his podium/race is something like 60%. Why would Mercedes get shot of that and bring in someone new and unpredictable? If I was Toto I'd rather smooth Bottas' injured pride than try to re-invent the wheel.
But there probably aren’t many drivers who could make that strategy work
Agreed, and even driving so close behind Verstappen in order to push him to work his tyres harder, seems, with hindsight, to be a masterstroke, but you need a driver like Hamiliton to be able do that.
The only way I could see Merc bringing someone new in is if they give someone like Russell a "No.2 until Hamilton moves on" kind of contract - it'd be the only way to preserve team harmony, would Russell accept it? I dunno. Would Merc want to operate like that given their spiel about "doing things the right way"? I don't think so. So Bottas it is.
A thought from yesterday, is Verstappen starting to look a bit desperate to anyone else? That first lap lunge would have likely ended both their races if Hamilton hadn't jumped out of the way which a few seasons ago he wouldn't have.
Another thought - as much as Hamilton's hero is Senna, he's reminding more of a Prost/Schumacher/Lauda type of driver now - calculating and doing exactly what he needs to do to win and no more, whereas Verstappen is more of a Senna/Mansell in the "win it or bin it" vein.
So STW seems to think Bottas is doing his job and should stay on. If he does he should get some advice from Eddie Irvine about being a No.2 driver - just take the money and smile! 🙂
Where does that leave Russell though - surely he can't do another year in a Williams. Perhaps a move to Aston Martin to replace Vettel?
a car that even Hamilton has said “You can’t just turn up, jump in, and win with”
To be fair, Hamilton’s unlikely to say “you could randomly pluck someone from Formula Ford and drop them in this seat and still win” 😉
driving so close behind Verstappen in order to push him to work his tyres harder, seems, with hindsight, to be a masterstroke, but you need a driver like Hamiliton to be able do that.
In a way, reminiscent of Mansell releasing Patrese at Monza to hassle Senna before Mansell later pounced for the win. Except Hamilton somehow manages to play both those roles 🙂
Though I think he was possibly focusing more on forcing the mistake, like at Portimao.
Verstappen is more of a Senna/Mansell in the “win it or bin it” vein.
Verstappen’s first season reminded me hugely of Senna: he would put himself in a position where he wasn’t driving into people but he put his opponents in a position where they had a choice: back out or collide. It was smart driving and made it clear to everyone from day one how he rolled. Sure, he went on to overstep the mark in terms of defending, but his overtaking was clever and ballsy. I think he’s now back at that point, and yes, very Senna-like in that respect.
a car that even Hamilton has said “You can’t just turn up, jump in, and win with”
Russell had a bloody good go last season
Where does that leave Russell though
Neither Mercedes seat is inked in for next year and Russell’s Williams contract is up. I can’t see a good reason why Mercedes wouldn’t want Hamilton and Russell in 2022.
Bottas looked a prat not letting Hamilton through, and then being passed by Hamilton 3 corners later, effectively putting up no fight.
I'm sure he'll keep his seat this year but I think his own ambitions don't match the reality that Lewis is the GOAT.
there were rumours of Bottas being replace before yesterdays escapades.
Mazepin made history at the weekend? First driver to ever be brought up in live TV radio messages between a team and race control?
there were rumours of Bottas being replace before yesterdays escapades.
There were also rumours of Hamilton moving to Ferrari a while back, also that Joe Biden suffers from dementia and Kamala Harris is really in charge, also that Hillary Clinton drinks the blood of babies. Check on the internet, you'll see there are rumours, definitely.
Russell had a bloody good go last season
Last years car was apparently VERY easy to drive fast right from the outset which is one of the reasons it was so dominant. By the time Russel got his hands on it, they understood it perfectly and how to dial it in with finesse. This years car is more flighty at the rear and doesn't turn in as well as last years. It was one of the things Hamilton mentioned after qualifying and the thing they were struggling with in testing.
This isn't to say that Russell coulnd't handle this in time, I mean he's put up with the Williams, but just saying last years Mercedes was quite a bit more "about the car" than perhaps this year. Russell has also shown that he can make some serious errors in a slightly flighty car.
IMO, the advantage of having Russell there is to have him train-up next to Hamilton in preparation for the next phase of Mercedes dominance.
I know what a rumour is, condescending ****. I mentioned it cos it cropped up on sky previous to his incident yesterday
Here's what we know for sure.
Hamilton is serious about racing next year and Merc is keen to have him stay. That means that it's nearly certain that he will drive for Merc next year. However, Hamilton will retire sometime in the next few years and Merc need a top calibre driver to replace him. Bottas is probably not that guy, I think there's widespread agreement about that. However, he is a solid, dependable guy and Merc like him so he would have to massively screw up for them to dump him mid-year.
Russell looks promising, but he wouldn't be the first promising guy to disappoint. Vandoorne looked really good on his debut and then ended up disappointing, for example. Putting Russell into a Merc next year alongside Hamilton would make sense. Putting him in this year would be a big risk that would make no sense.
On the rumour front, "people are saying" that Lando Norris would also be a good contender for the Merc seat. He has accomplished much more than Russell and Merc could probably do a deal with McLaren to swap Bottas or Russell for Lando, plus a discount on engines. That's just speculation from people imagining what they would like to happen. There's utterly no evidence that Merc are seriously considering Norris.
I can't see Bottas being replaced mid season as Merc on the whole don't do that. As long as he can bring good points home on race day and help Merc to win the constructors title then he will have done the job they require of him. Obviously he has his own ambitions and does still seem to think he is capable of winning the drivers title. Unfortunately, the evidence suggests that he isn't a strong / good enough racer to be able to do that over the course of the season. Sure, if you believe the little hints he has dropped now and again that here have been races where he was dealing with an issue, then we could cut him some slack, but in reality we have seen over the last 3 seasons that he just doesn't quite have that winning x-factor. He can drive very quickly and certainly helps to push Lewis and Max to their best in qualifying but is not fast enough or consistent enough throughout the race. He should have been better / more competitive in Portugal and he should have been able to do better in Spain. But he was too far off the pace and therefore his lack of letting Lewis through just ends up looking petulant and silly.
I still think Russell will be one of the Merc drivers next year which could make things quite spicy with Lewis but could also leave Merc being very dominant with two very strong drivers
true or false, if it's being aired by a premier f1 broadcaster then chances are Bottas has heard them too (or even watched the sky piece before sundays race).... and yet he still pulls yesterdays stunt.
Bottas is the perfect number two points hoover. When he finally realises this, he’ll be an even better second driver. Yesterday showed he hasn’t yet realised it. There is no shame in being the best number two in a team sport - maybe maturity will bring that.
Max has looked much more mature this year. He can see his trajectory. He will be a WC eventually. Now he seems to have patience and be enjoying it. Even losing yesterday. Bottas does not look as if he is enjoying it.
“The secret to happiness in middle age is to lower one’s expectations” Jo Brandt.
It's human nature to get frustrated in situations like that. Merc had to deal with much worse when Rosberg and Hamilton were teammates, and it's nothing compared to Hamilton-Alonso, Senna-Prost, Piquet-Mansell, etc. Bottas is generally fairly level headed so Merc will sit him down and have a word with him, tell him he is a valued member of the team but they don't appreciate that sort of thing. Then things will go back to normal and it will go down as a minor footnote in the history of the sport.
Here’s a thing; if you were Lewis and had won the 8th World championship, therefore having more than any other driver ever, more poles and more wins than anyone ever,would you bow out at that point? He doesn’t need to stay, he’ll retire as the GOAT at a point the cars will change radically. Best to step out then than risk the tail end of your career in a vary different car with no experience in it.
If Lewis goes Russel could step in and Bottas gets another year, or one of the reserves steps up. If Lewis stays Russell goes to no 2 as his protege.
If I was Lewis, I’d be keen to prove that “It’s not about the car”. One more season to do that. Then retire.
Hamilton is serious about racing next year, that's why he did the tyre test of next year's tyres. He's in talks with Merc about his contract. He pretty much has the best job in the world and seems to be still enjoying it. He has no intention of retiring at the end of this year.
That’s the difference between doing a job and doing what you love which happens to be your job. Hamilton seems to be absolutely LOVING driving at the moment. So why not stay and get paid for it?
Is he really bothered about his legacy any more?
100 poles, soon to be 100 wins and likely 8 WDCs. It’s a healthy legacy.
Best to step out then than risk the tail end of your career in a vary different car with no experience in it.
He'll have as much experience as everyone else on the grid. Added to which he's in a team which has (uniquely, IIRC) proven that it can sustain championship-winning form across significant changes to the formula, and he's one of a handful of current drivers who have a reputation for being able to adapt his driving to the car. Next year might throw a lot of things up in the air, but there's absolutely no-one better placed to catch them all and run with them. There's a slim chance that future events might lead him to focus on other interests than racing, but there's zero chance that he's looking at 2022 and feeling scared by some notion of not winning.
He's clearly very motivated at the moment, as the results don't just happen and he's driving better than ever. Even if he won an 8th this year that fire is still going to burn strongly so can't see him stopping.
Sounds like standard F1 teams working their way around the rules. See also: bendy front wings
No more dodgy than a steering wheel you can pull on to adjust the toe-in of the front wheels...
I think F1 teams push the de-facto rules, and the interpretation of those rules in order to gain an advantage. Other teams get to call them out on it...just another form of competition.
mashr
Full MemberSounds like standard F1 teams working their way around the rules. See also: bendy front wings
Yeah they're changing the test which implies they found a cheeky-sneaky way to circumvent the original tests e.g. by moving the flexible part out of the scope of the test.
Video of the flex. Be surprised if it's worth 3/10 as claimed but you never know.
https://streamable.com/6xb9xv
There’s quite some movement there though - it’d be interesting to see if RB cars get slower on the straights next month.
Wow! That’s way more movement than I expected to see. You’ve got to give them praise for engineering and building that