MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
In better news the new commentator, who's name I have forgotten, is sounding less and less like an overenthusiastic local radio DJ as time goes on, big improvement on Bahrain.
and the stewards have given Mazepin.....
...a three place grid penalty...
even though he qualified last....
Jesus wept, his Dad isn’t funding the FIA as well is he?
Carlos Reuterman is in a bad way in hospital. Not covid, some stomach problems
Reutemann story here:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/carlos-reutemann-hospital-intensive-care/6505265/
Diagnosed with liver cancer a few years back, has been very sick since then, now has intestinal bleeding. Does not sound good.
In better news the new commentator, who’s name I have forgotten, is sounding less and less like an overenthusiastic local radio DJ as time goes on, big improvement on Bahrain.
He still pronounces "maintain" as two words tho
Yeah I agree he’s got way better. Pleased to have DC as second man too, rather than Billy Monger. Bahrain was awful.
(Mercedes trackside engineering director) Andrew Shovlin was just saying that if you put all his pole laps together in a video it would last two hours. And that just shows what he has achieved.
seems bottas is not expecting to get a contract extension
Bottas will be polishing his cv tonight. That was appalling
the merc is a beast in the hands of hamilton
un ****ing believable!!!!
Wow Hamilton classy aggressive and classy work.
Too good, his lap delta consistency is remorseless!
Mercedes need to move Bottas on - if he want to be treated like a winner he needs to drive like one. He can't do stroppy blocks on Lewis if he's nowhere near the same pace.
That is a strategy you can only consider if you have total faith in your driver.
I think Bottas just lost any chance of keeping a seat at a top team.
Red Bull team boss Christian Horner, speaking to Sky Sports: "I don't think we could [have done anything differently]. In fairness, hats off to Mercedes and Lewis.
"They were just quicker than we were today. We were surprised they didn't go for the early undercut. [At the end] We knew he was probably going to catch us.
"They just looked like they had a quicker car today. They were able to follow so closely. They had nothing to lose when taking that pit stop into the clean air."
the law of unintended consequences.... rule changes to help high rake cars narrow the gap has made the merc a racing car par excellence.
This seems to be the only saving grace of the new aerodynamic rules from a Mercedes perspective. RedBull et al may not have lost as much performance, but it does seem to have allowed other cars to follow more closely without turbulence, which would make sense given the high rake and the floor cutouts.
the law of unintended consequences…. rule changes to help high rake cars narrow the gap has made the merc a racing car par excellence.
The rule that everyone initially said was going to affect high rake cars more remember
Can't be long for Mercedes now, old Valterri
https://www.planetf1.com/news/valtteri-bottas-team-orders-spanish-gp/
Always pleasing when the geeks doing the sums back home behind their laptops produce a strategy, and the team act on that recommendation. That’s a seriously high functioning team.
Can’t be long for Mercedes now, old Valterri
I don't think they'll drop him mid-season...too disrupting for the team.
You’d have some sympathy for Bottas’s stubbornness if (a) he hadn’t spent the entire race being clearly slower than Hamilton, never mind the strategy, (b) he hadn’t spend the past few years proving he’s not going to win a championship, (c) he’d managed to get the fastest lap given that he had fresh tyres and the fastest car on the track, and (d) he’d managed to put up more than half a dozen corners’ defence before his bullishness got kicked into the dust anyway, but it’s a tough stance to pull off when you’re getting rinsed race after race and unfortunately he’s just made himself look a complete dick.
The “you’re gaining two tenths on Verstappen, at this pace you’ll catch him on the last lap” radio message was hilarious. I’m not sure whether I winced more at that or at his driving. Meanwhile Hamilton seems to have found yet another level.
That aside, for once I have high hopes of needing the edge of my seat for Monaco. A possible swing to Red Bull and Max is two wins down so he’ll be merciless; meanwhile the midfield is as tight as you like and everyone’s going to have to find their way past Mazepin (assuming he doesn’t stuff it into the barriers at Loews on the first lap). Five quid on multiple safety cars and another five on some sort of fireworks that set the season properly alight. In fact possibly at Ste Dévote on lap 1.
You're forgetting that they know that they could drop Russell in that car and he'd be no worse immediately. My guess is Bottas has already been told he's unlikely to be in that car next year and has decided to throw a hissy fit.
So in the alternate scenario Lewis could have stopped the lap after Max's first (slow) stop, emerged in the lead and then he clearly had the pace to pull a full pit stop clear of Max, come in for fresh Softs a few laps from the end try to set fastest lap and gain an extra point on top of his 25 from the weekend. Did the Merc strategists really get it right?
So in the alternate scenario Lewis could have stopped the lap after Max’s first (slow) stop, emerged in the lead
Wasn't the problem that if he had pitted after Max's first stop that he would have come out behind Perez?
With hindsight I reckon he'd have got past Perez easier than Bottas 😀
So, if STW thinks Bottas must go, who does it think should take his place and give Hamilton a run for his money ?
To me it seems Hamilton will beat anyone, even if they are in the same car. So anyone joining Merc will end up being moaned at just like Bottas seems to be now.
Bascially Bottas has one job and thats to give Merc the constructors championship - which he has done every year. Merc can only have one winner, which they do. So why would Merc spoil this.
The only driver who beat Hamilton was Rosberg, and that caused problems for the team.
If I was Toto Id leave the line up as it is, that way they win the constructors and the drivers championships.
If I was Toto Id leave the line up as it is, that way they win the constructors and the drivers championships.
I agree, for Mercedes it's a winning formula, Bottas has pretty much been a team player in a "team/not a team" sport for ages now, I'd forgive a bit of truculence every now and again, it must be pretty frustrating.
Bascially Bottas has one job and thats to give Merc the constructors championship – which he has done every year. Merc can only have one winner, which they do. So why would Merc spoil this.
Exactly. Merc are very happy with Bottas. He's very close to Hamilton in qualifying, which means they have two cars to play with for strategy. He's not as good a race driver, but Hamilton is one of the very best drivers ever, so that's not a disqualification. He works well with the team, that's their main concern. It's possible that Russell will turn out to be better than Bottas, but putting him in there mid-season is a huge risk. It's much safer to stick with Bottas and there's pretty much zero chance that Merc will dump him mid-year if he's regularly qualifying and finishing races on the podium.
I think Bottas' frustration is understandable. It must be bloody soul destroying to have possibly the GOAT as your team mate.
But he is being remunerated pretty well by Merc (circa $10m a year) and realistically would he have won yesterday if he'd been Merc No 1 driver? Without Lewis, Mercedes would have no victories this season.
Oh and can someone sort out the track layout at Barcelona. There is literally a better track already there, they just need to delete the nobby little chicane at the end of the lap.
Yeah, agreed, Bottas is still the right guy in that seat, he just made himself look a bit daft trying to make a point when he's not having the season to back that point up, even if it is only round 4. But as noted above, it must suck being in the same car as either Hamilton or Verstappen and occasionally you're going to want to convince yourself that you're equal to them. Silly way to do it, though: either you get passed in the space of a few corners and your point is completely undermined, or you manage to keep him behind and wreck Lewis and Merc's race completely. Lose/lose.
So in the alternate scenario Lewis could have stopped the lap after Max’s first (slow) stop, emerged in the lead and then he clearly had the pace to pull a full pit stop clear of Max, come in for fresh Softs a few laps from the end try to set fastest lap and gain an extra point on top of his 25 from the weekend. Did the Merc strategists really get it right?
He wouldn't have had that pace if he'd had to look after a set of mediums until a few laps from the end (ie eke out an additional 12-13 laps from them, a 50% increase). I confess I wondered why they kept Hamilton out after Max's slow stop, which would have let Hamilton come back out a couple of seconds in the lead, but all became clear at the second stop: clearly they'd planned it well in advance. Did they get it right? They took the lead with 6 laps to go, so yes. But there probably aren't many drivers who could make that strategy work (Bottas was nearly a second off Hamilton's pace on new mediums after their first stops), which is perhaps why it looks so audacious.
and realistically would he have won yesterday if he’d been Merc No 1 driver?
It's an impossible question, and really a bit unfair it's not what he's there for He's been second behind perhaps the GOAT, in a car that even Hamilton has said "You can't just turn up, jump in, and win with" By all accounts it's fast but it's a handful. He picks up wins were he can, and his podium/race is something like 60%. Why would Mercedes get shot of that and bring in someone new and unpredictable? If I was Toto I'd rather smooth Bottas' injured pride than try to re-invent the wheel.
But there probably aren’t many drivers who could make that strategy work
Agreed, and even driving so close behind Verstappen in order to push him to work his tyres harder, seems, with hindsight, to be a masterstroke, but you need a driver like Hamiliton to be able do that.
The only way I could see Merc bringing someone new in is if they give someone like Russell a "No.2 until Hamilton moves on" kind of contract - it'd be the only way to preserve team harmony, would Russell accept it? I dunno. Would Merc want to operate like that given their spiel about "doing things the right way"? I don't think so. So Bottas it is.
A thought from yesterday, is Verstappen starting to look a bit desperate to anyone else? That first lap lunge would have likely ended both their races if Hamilton hadn't jumped out of the way which a few seasons ago he wouldn't have.
Another thought - as much as Hamilton's hero is Senna, he's reminding more of a Prost/Schumacher/Lauda type of driver now - calculating and doing exactly what he needs to do to win and no more, whereas Verstappen is more of a Senna/Mansell in the "win it or bin it" vein.
So STW seems to think Bottas is doing his job and should stay on. If he does he should get some advice from Eddie Irvine about being a No.2 driver - just take the money and smile! 🙂
Where does that leave Russell though - surely he can't do another year in a Williams. Perhaps a move to Aston Martin to replace Vettel?
a car that even Hamilton has said “You can’t just turn up, jump in, and win with”
To be fair, Hamilton’s unlikely to say “you could randomly pluck someone from Formula Ford and drop them in this seat and still win” 😉
driving so close behind Verstappen in order to push him to work his tyres harder, seems, with hindsight, to be a masterstroke, but you need a driver like Hamiliton to be able do that.
In a way, reminiscent of Mansell releasing Patrese at Monza to hassle Senna before Mansell later pounced for the win. Except Hamilton somehow manages to play both those roles 🙂
Though I think he was possibly focusing more on forcing the mistake, like at Portimao.
Verstappen is more of a Senna/Mansell in the “win it or bin it” vein.
Verstappen’s first season reminded me hugely of Senna: he would put himself in a position where he wasn’t driving into people but he put his opponents in a position where they had a choice: back out or collide. It was smart driving and made it clear to everyone from day one how he rolled. Sure, he went on to overstep the mark in terms of defending, but his overtaking was clever and ballsy. I think he’s now back at that point, and yes, very Senna-like in that respect.
a car that even Hamilton has said “You can’t just turn up, jump in, and win with”
Russell had a bloody good go last season
Where does that leave Russell though
Neither Mercedes seat is inked in for next year and Russell’s Williams contract is up. I can’t see a good reason why Mercedes wouldn’t want Hamilton and Russell in 2022.
Bottas looked a prat not letting Hamilton through, and then being passed by Hamilton 3 corners later, effectively putting up no fight.
I'm sure he'll keep his seat this year but I think his own ambitions don't match the reality that Lewis is the GOAT.
there were rumours of Bottas being replace before yesterdays escapades.
Mazepin made history at the weekend? First driver to ever be brought up in live TV radio messages between a team and race control?
there were rumours of Bottas being replace before yesterdays escapades.
There were also rumours of Hamilton moving to Ferrari a while back, also that Joe Biden suffers from dementia and Kamala Harris is really in charge, also that Hillary Clinton drinks the blood of babies. Check on the internet, you'll see there are rumours, definitely.
Russell had a bloody good go last season
Last years car was apparently VERY easy to drive fast right from the outset which is one of the reasons it was so dominant. By the time Russel got his hands on it, they understood it perfectly and how to dial it in with finesse. This years car is more flighty at the rear and doesn't turn in as well as last years. It was one of the things Hamilton mentioned after qualifying and the thing they were struggling with in testing.
This isn't to say that Russell coulnd't handle this in time, I mean he's put up with the Williams, but just saying last years Mercedes was quite a bit more "about the car" than perhaps this year. Russell has also shown that he can make some serious errors in a slightly flighty car.
IMO, the advantage of having Russell there is to have him train-up next to Hamilton in preparation for the next phase of Mercedes dominance.
I know what a rumour is, condescending ****. I mentioned it cos it cropped up on sky previous to his incident yesterday
Here's what we know for sure.
Hamilton is serious about racing next year and Merc is keen to have him stay. That means that it's nearly certain that he will drive for Merc next year. However, Hamilton will retire sometime in the next few years and Merc need a top calibre driver to replace him. Bottas is probably not that guy, I think there's widespread agreement about that. However, he is a solid, dependable guy and Merc like him so he would have to massively screw up for them to dump him mid-year.
Russell looks promising, but he wouldn't be the first promising guy to disappoint. Vandoorne looked really good on his debut and then ended up disappointing, for example. Putting Russell into a Merc next year alongside Hamilton would make sense. Putting him in this year would be a big risk that would make no sense.
On the rumour front, "people are saying" that Lando Norris would also be a good contender for the Merc seat. He has accomplished much more than Russell and Merc could probably do a deal with McLaren to swap Bottas or Russell for Lando, plus a discount on engines. That's just speculation from people imagining what they would like to happen. There's utterly no evidence that Merc are seriously considering Norris.
I can't see Bottas being replaced mid season as Merc on the whole don't do that. As long as he can bring good points home on race day and help Merc to win the constructors title then he will have done the job they require of him. Obviously he has his own ambitions and does still seem to think he is capable of winning the drivers title. Unfortunately, the evidence suggests that he isn't a strong / good enough racer to be able to do that over the course of the season. Sure, if you believe the little hints he has dropped now and again that here have been races where he was dealing with an issue, then we could cut him some slack, but in reality we have seen over the last 3 seasons that he just doesn't quite have that winning x-factor. He can drive very quickly and certainly helps to push Lewis and Max to their best in qualifying but is not fast enough or consistent enough throughout the race. He should have been better / more competitive in Portugal and he should have been able to do better in Spain. But he was too far off the pace and therefore his lack of letting Lewis through just ends up looking petulant and silly.
I still think Russell will be one of the Merc drivers next year which could make things quite spicy with Lewis but could also leave Merc being very dominant with two very strong drivers
true or false, if it's being aired by a premier f1 broadcaster then chances are Bottas has heard them too (or even watched the sky piece before sundays race).... and yet he still pulls yesterdays stunt.
Bottas is the perfect number two points hoover. When he finally realises this, he’ll be an even better second driver. Yesterday showed he hasn’t yet realised it. There is no shame in being the best number two in a team sport - maybe maturity will bring that.
Max has looked much more mature this year. He can see his trajectory. He will be a WC eventually. Now he seems to have patience and be enjoying it. Even losing yesterday. Bottas does not look as if he is enjoying it.
“The secret to happiness in middle age is to lower one’s expectations” Jo Brandt.
It's human nature to get frustrated in situations like that. Merc had to deal with much worse when Rosberg and Hamilton were teammates, and it's nothing compared to Hamilton-Alonso, Senna-Prost, Piquet-Mansell, etc. Bottas is generally fairly level headed so Merc will sit him down and have a word with him, tell him he is a valued member of the team but they don't appreciate that sort of thing. Then things will go back to normal and it will go down as a minor footnote in the history of the sport.
Here’s a thing; if you were Lewis and had won the 8th World championship, therefore having more than any other driver ever, more poles and more wins than anyone ever,would you bow out at that point? He doesn’t need to stay, he’ll retire as the GOAT at a point the cars will change radically. Best to step out then than risk the tail end of your career in a vary different car with no experience in it.
If Lewis goes Russel could step in and Bottas gets another year, or one of the reserves steps up. If Lewis stays Russell goes to no 2 as his protege.
If I was Lewis, I’d be keen to prove that “It’s not about the car”. One more season to do that. Then retire.
Hamilton is serious about racing next year, that's why he did the tyre test of next year's tyres. He's in talks with Merc about his contract. He pretty much has the best job in the world and seems to be still enjoying it. He has no intention of retiring at the end of this year.
That’s the difference between doing a job and doing what you love which happens to be your job. Hamilton seems to be absolutely LOVING driving at the moment. So why not stay and get paid for it?
Is he really bothered about his legacy any more?
100 poles, soon to be 100 wins and likely 8 WDCs. It’s a healthy legacy.
Best to step out then than risk the tail end of your career in a vary different car with no experience in it.
He'll have as much experience as everyone else on the grid. Added to which he's in a team which has (uniquely, IIRC) proven that it can sustain championship-winning form across significant changes to the formula, and he's one of a handful of current drivers who have a reputation for being able to adapt his driving to the car. Next year might throw a lot of things up in the air, but there's absolutely no-one better placed to catch them all and run with them. There's a slim chance that future events might lead him to focus on other interests than racing, but there's zero chance that he's looking at 2022 and feeling scared by some notion of not winning.
He's clearly very motivated at the moment, as the results don't just happen and he's driving better than ever. Even if he won an 8th this year that fire is still going to burn strongly so can't see him stopping.
Sounds like standard F1 teams working their way around the rules. See also: bendy front wings
No more dodgy than a steering wheel you can pull on to adjust the toe-in of the front wheels...
I think F1 teams push the de-facto rules, and the interpretation of those rules in order to gain an advantage. Other teams get to call them out on it...just another form of competition.
mashr
Full MemberSounds like standard F1 teams working their way around the rules. See also: bendy front wings
Yeah they're changing the test which implies they found a cheeky-sneaky way to circumvent the original tests e.g. by moving the flexible part out of the scope of the test.
Video of the flex. Be surprised if it's worth 3/10 as claimed but you never know.
https://streamable.com/6xb9xv
There’s quite some movement there though - it’d be interesting to see if RB cars get slower on the straights next month.
Wow! That’s way more movement than I expected to see. You’ve got to give them praise for engineering and building that
Even tiny deflections in large aerodynamic surfaces make a massive difference to drag.
One of the Aircarft wings we designed was manufactured 0.07deg out of position and the result was a 2% increase in fuel burn.
nickc
Full Member
No more dodgy than a steering wheel you can pull on to adjust the toe-in of the front wheels…
It really is - Mercedes told the FIA about DAS to make sure it was compliant. Redbull seems to have specifically designed their wing to pass the test, but still deflect due to asymmetric loading. The rule is quite clear. NO moveable aerodynamic device. That's a rule violation.
It also seems that the FIA are aware that RBs wing will fail the test and are giving them the chance to sort it without a penalty. Christian Horner was his usual deft wordsmith self when asked if the wing was complaint, he said that the wing passed all of tests...It's not the same thing and he knows it.
It's just F1 innit! 🙂
Flexi-wings have been used for donkeys years. If your's passes the tests then your design team have done their job well.
Horner has answered the question. As the rules are currently enforced it’sa legal car which is all it has to be.
@Daffy, yes you're correct, I forgot that DAS was legal. I guess what I meant is that teams are always trying to push the limits of the regulations.
In addition to new, more targeted static tests, the FIA plans to use on-board cameras to monitor the behaviour of wings while cars are in motion in an attempt to spot any excessive movement of bodywork.
looks like the chap that put the camera on the back of the F1 car for the classic Monaco race will get his wish for it to be on a current F1 car earlier than expected!
All F1 wings will flex to some extent - materials being like that and all - so the no moveable aerodynamic device can not mean absolutely no flex.
It can only mean flexes less than a certain amount under certain conditions - or in other words passes a test.
Red Bull do appear to have gotten a good amount of flex while still passing the criteria - which will lead to tighter criteria.
But everyone will have been designing as close to that criteria as possible - and if others have to strengthen a wing to pass the test that didn’t actually flex that much on the racetrack it might be them that lose out.
I think the FIA are considering cameras monitoring the wings for that reason but good luck with interpreting the result and the challenges that follow
Wow! That’s way more movement than I expected to see.
Me too - a quite visible change in wing shape which is surely going to have a significant affect on straight line speed.
That’s the difference between doing a job and doing what you love which happens to be your job. Hamilton seems to be absolutely LOVING driving at the moment. So why not stay and get paid for it?
That’s the crux of it. Hamilton chuffin loves racing. When he’s got competition he gets even better, you never want to see him in your mirrors! If he sees that he’ll have a new younger driver - hopefully Russell - who has already proven himself in a Merc by beating Bottas he will just see it as a challenge and love it even more!
The guy just seems unstoppable. Did you see the interview with C4 guys, he was saying he was up till well last midnight the day before the last race going though ways to improve the car with the engineers. He is also still very fit and doesn’t seem to be showing any lack of talent/sharpness/eagerness compared to Verstappen.
The only thing I think that will change his mind about racing is if the Merc team changes a lot and he doesn’t have that really tight knit team round him, maybe a new boss would change the dynamic?
9 or 10 time world champion? I don’t think I’d bet against it.
The rear wing issue - I wonder how they test for deflection to see if it’s within the rules? That video of the bending seems to show that it flexes from the bottom of the wing structure, maybe where it is attached - not the top pieces. If the testing is done off the car maybe it won’t reflect real world usage?
I am guessing the FIA have already thought about that but it got me thinking.
The test is a static one where they apply a set load at a certain point or points to simulate aero loading at a given speed. The part is allowed to move a certain distance before it fails the test. The thing is with carbon fibre (and any other laminate) is that you can engineer in progressive/regressive rates of flex so what RedBull have done is engineer the layup to be stiff enough to pass the test but any more load makes it flex more. They did exactly the same thing with the front wings a few years ago. All very clever and within the letter of the rules but not the spirit.
It's just another example of the team pushing the envelope and waiting for the rule makers to catch up. Same as McLaren with their DRS tubes through the chassis, the second brake pedal or Brabham with the 'Fan Car'. Brilliant lateral thinking that makes the technical side so interesting. RedBull will have been waiting for the wing to be spotted and just making the most of it until then, same with every team.
If the testing is done off the car maybe it won’t reflect real world usage?
I believe the load tests are carried out on full cars during scrutineering at races. iirc some of them are quite simple - hang a certain weight off the wing, if it moves more than a set amount you get done for it. Also iirc on front wings they (RB) changed the wing so that when the FIA started looking at deflection they changed the design to twist it instead. Suppose these are the tricks you can pull if you're Adrian Newey!
All very clever and within the letter of the rules but not the spirit.
I don't believe that it is within the letter of the law, they have designed it to comply with the tests, not the actual law, it's like VW's emissions test workaround, or drugs cheats never falling a test.
What does the law actually state?
Most specifications can only be interpreted in light of how you measure them.
Like your 230V electricity supply into your house for example.
What does the law actually state?
That moving aero surfaces is a no-no. However, as said above, there will always be some flex so it starts to get murky at that point, then there’s the “we pass the test” part too. It’s all just what they’ve been doing since F1 started
From the BBC
Article 3.8 of the F1 technical regulations states that bodywork must be "rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car" and "remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car".
So the test itself isn't the law, it was just a method of testing probable compliance, if RB have designed the wing to flex under the load created by speed but remain rigid under the specific test that is breaking the law.
I guess that while it is suspected that it is a design feature rather than a design accident they can't prove it, so have issued guidance and updated future testing rather than punishment.