Yeah I’m with you there, if Horner’s doing it and Masi’s allowing it then Toto has to join in to try and maintain a balance.
For safety. Wasn’t it introduced to reduce the number of first-corner collisions on restarts?
Partly, it was also brought in to enable the race to continue and not overrun due to restarts back in the days when TV stations had to book a specific slot of satellite time so they could show the race live. The initial idea was one of safety but over the years its role has evolved. The initial idea was for a medical car to follow the first lap and it moved on from there, there's a very good explanation of it all and the pitfalls they went through (Vauxhall Cavalier safety car one race, Lamborghini Countach the next!) in Prof. Sid Watkins' book Triumph and Tragedy in Formula 1.
It's interesting that none of the normal sites (Planet F1, Autosport etc) think that what happened was anything other than a farce. While all of them are very quick to point out that they think Verstappen's a worthy winner of the season (I don't think many think that he's not) most also think that those decision will definitely echo on.
1. Don't let cars un-lap themselves
2. Let only on a select few un-lap themselves
3. Change the rules about when the race starts again after the SC has come back in.
what a bin fire.
In the early days of the safety car, wasn't the pit lane closed automatically when the safety car was deployed, until the RD deemed it was safe (or fair) to open it, and maybe something about returning to the original position in the pack (although I am less confident that was a thing).
By early days I eman probably some point in the 90's or early 2000's when it seemed to become a regular thing.
thegreatape
Free MemberSeems reasonable, although would actually negate the need for the SC, just make them all pit (essentially a red flag
Except you can’t just drive these cars into the pit lane, turn them off whilst the track is cleared, then fire them back up and hammer out of the pits when you get your countdown. Anything like this turns into a massive faff and 20+ min delay
I see the biggest hypocrite is whinging again that Merc unworthy sore losers and that if the protest is successful then DedCow will take their ball and not play.....
Ha! I was about to post the exact same. Marko in “mouths off with total lack of self awareness and threatens to have a flounce” shocker! You could set your watch by him, assuming you wanted your watch to behave like a dick.
I’d love him to do it just to see Max’s reaction… “I love you guys, let’s do this for 10-15 years!”—“**** that, Max, you’ll have to go to Formula E, I’m pulling the whole thing because I can’t stand people who over-react to something that they don’t like!”
It’s not even his team anyway. It would be a more credible threat if the guy who carries the left rear wheel to the box threatened to walk out.
Except you can’t just drive these cars into the pit lane, turn them off whilst the track is cleared, then fire them back up and hammer out of the pits when you get your countdown. Anything like this turns into a massive faff and 20+ min delay
Fair point
1. Don’t let cars un-lap themselves2. Let only on a select few un-lap themselves
3. Change the rules about when the race starts again after the SC has come back in.
what a bin fire.
The thing is, had that SC been at any other point in the race, it'd largely have been OK.
They tried to rush it to finish so they could get one more lap in, pulled out half the cars but not all of them (as though the placings below 2nd and the midfield battles didn't matter) and made all that up on the fly.
If they'd have had another 5 laps in hand, it'd (probably) have been OK. Equally if the SC had come out with 1 or 2 laps to go, they'd have had no choice but to finish under it.
For me, I think the only 'fair' way of treating the SC / pit stop rule is to either make cars that stop join the back of the tail, so there is some cost - and would restrict drivers to pitting under the SC for safety reasons - or it would be to freeze the positions as they are when the SC is deployed and allow all the drivers to reform in their original positions.
Ultimately, the rushed ending guaranteed Max the win, I'm not surprised Mercedes are kicking off..
Except you can’t just drive these cars into the pit lane, turn them off whilst the track is cleared, then fire them back up and hammer out of the pits when you get your countdown. Anything like this turns into a massive faff and 20+ min delay
It wouldn't take 20 minutes to restart the cars if this was a normal part of races. Teams would be prepared to stop and restart in a hurry. The reason it won't happen is because everyone is used to doing it the way it is now.
and made all that up on the fly.
I think that's the nub of Mercedes' complaint, isn't it?
WEC have a “full course yellow” and the pit Lane is closed until the race director opens it. They use the safety car keeps frequently. It’s not prefect, but it’s better than F1
I too was about to post about Helmet bleating. There's only one thing worse than a bad loser, and that's a bad winner.
It would be good if the sites just stopped reporting anything he (Marko) says - it never seems to add anything to the discussion
Sainz might have attacked
I’m struggling to see this. Reckon it’d be more likely he’d not want to interfere with a title fight in the last round
I agree...but what if Sainz finishing above Max had meant Ferrari beating McLaren to 3rd place, and he was unable to because he had back markers but Max didn't? I know, all hypothetical but you can't have one rule for some back markers and another one for the rest!
How about to finish the SC, all into the pits and let out by lights timed to the pre-SC time gaps. If you need to change tyres for safety reasons, you can, but leave the pits last.
Pit lanes aren't designed for lots of people doing a high speed start together - imagine if a car near the back of the lane is say 0.5 seconds ahead of one at the front - and it is released just as the rear car is passing. if you are doing "timed release" it would be far better / safer on the grid - but then cold tyres aren't that safe either...
I'm sure 2022 telemetry could be used to restore pre-safety car positions. But then if you were gaining 0.5s per lap with a 4sec gap and 12 laps to go and the safety car comes out for 6 laps you are still unhappy.
There is potentially an argument that SC laps shouldn't count (or perhaps count as 1/2 laps) - the TV schedules shouldn't be too screwed up if it avoids stop/start, but then if you do 10 extra laps under safety car with tyres and fuel calculated for less you are penalised.
What is clearly unacceptable is to have inconsistent rules. But to have finished yesterdays race under the safety car whilst people were unlapping themselves would have been criticised as an anticlimax. I think anyone who reads this:
The race directors’ job is to direct a race, not a movie.
and doesn't think - are you sure - there would be no race if it wasn't a "spectacle"...
The FIA have rounded up a whole bunch of roles ... ...and thrown them all at Masi who’s probably got too much to do come race day, and hasn’t got nearly enough support.
I'm quite sure if Masi wants help he could just ask and have assistant race directors or clerks of the course or whatever separation he needs - its not like budget is the problem. If he doesn't have that its because he or the FIA (or most likely both) prefer it to be more interesting/controversial than a very smoothly run race.
Pit lanes aren’t designed for lots of people doing a high speed start together
It doesn't have to be high speed starts. When the SC finishes:
All cars drive into the pit lane in race order.(note, nobody actually pits)
Set up timed lights at the top of the pit lane. \
You aren't allowed over the line until your light goes.
Pit lane speed limit still applies.
It doesn't even need to be the PL, it could be the starting grid. Just a way of preserving the pre-SC time gaps.
I’m quite sure if Masi wants help he could just ask and have assistant race directors
I thought he'd already appointed Christian Horner as his assistant.
All cars drive into the pit lane in race order.(note, nobody actually pits)
Set up timed lights at the top of the pit lane. \
You aren’t allowed over the line until your light goes.
Pit lane speed limit still applies.
How do you restart 4 cars that are within 2s of each other?
I think we are getting a bit bogged down in the SC stuff. Yes, it's not perfect but by and large it works pretty well because everyone knows how it works and what to do ,they accept there is a random element or chance in the timing but that is the same for everyone.
The problem here isn't that an SC was called but that one team (Merc) made a strategic call based on the assumption that the procedure would be followed and understandably feel aggrieved that it wasn't.
Whatever SC rules we come up with will inevitably favour some teams or drivers at some times and others at other times but as long as the rules are followed and everyone can see that it was fair then they accept the element of chance. It's the changing the rules mid race which is the issue, not whatever those rules happen to be.
RB are not at fault here (yes, they were on the radio to Race Control but that is allowed so they will do it, they broke no rules) Merc broke no rules, and were also on the radio arguing their corner. The issue is not to do with what the rules are, the issue is to do with just making up new ones whenever they feel like it. That is simply unacceptable and heads must roll.
I disagree, the SC is still stupid as someone with a two minute lead can lose it completely, how is that fair? It often isn't such a big issue because everyone pits for new tyres and retains their position. More racing on circuit is needed rather than undercuts and strategy
It doesn’t even need to be the PL, it could be the starting grid. Just a way of preserving the pre-SC time gaps.
And when the last car away was also just about to be lapped, your idea starts to get dangerous
Yeah, agree the SC isn't really the problem here. Yes it does generally penalise the leader more than anyone else but if you've got different drivers vying for the lead at different GPs it should even itself out over the course of a season.
The issue was the race director deciding he didn't want the title race ending behind the safety car (which it would have done at any other race) so changed the rules but in doing so (possibly) inadvertently almost guaranteed Max the win (whereas until the SC he had almost no chance of a win, it would have needed Hamilton to have a mechanical/crash for Max to have caught/passed him).
If Max had have been closing fast enough that he would have caught Hamilton then it would have made a lot more sense to do what Masi did as finishing the race behind the SC would have prevented an inevitable on-track battle but the reality was Lewis had won bar a mechanical issue (or crashing himself).
I disagree, the SC is still stupid as someone with a two minute lead can lose it completely, how is that fair?
Because everyone knows that is a possibility and will think accordingly. I'm not saying it's perfect, just saying that consistency and following the rules is probably more important than tweaking those rules, no point having any if the RD can just make up new ones
Well Bernie said on R4 this morning that the results should stand apparently.
So that’s all right then.
dc1988
Free MemberI disagree, the SC is still stupid as someone with a two minute lead can lose it completely, how is that fair? It often isn’t such a big issue because everyone pits for new tyres and retains their position. More racing on circuit is needed rather than undercuts and strategy
It’s just the least bad option. Little delay to the race and the marshalls get to recover the car(s) and clean up the track in safety as everyone is in one spot.
Well Bernie said on R4 this morning that the results should stand apparently.
Which cements his position as chief dick in my mind.
It waould be quite easy to have a rule which says you can't finish the race under a safety car. If it looks like that is waht is going to happen then the race gets red flagged. You could even have a minimum number of laps to be raced after the race restarts. Job done.
Personally I think the results should stand. Does anyone want to see the WDC decided in court?
But the FIA should admit to their failings and either issue clarifications or change the safety car procedure. Automatic red flag after a set percentage of race distance (85 or 90% for example) is a good suggestion.
I'm still in disbelief over yesterday result.. Lewis did everything right and deserved the title and to be robbed in that manner! The way in which it was done was purely for TV entertainment regardless of the drivers... Like giving a boxer who is on the ropes after been knocked down several times to have a free shot and knockout.. crazy!!
Race should have finished under the safety car but that doesn't make for good TV
From Autosport forum:
AMuS is reporting Ross Brawn saying that next year the team principle-to-race director radio communication will be cancelled. So not just the broadcast, but the actual communication. It leads to too much pressure on the race director.
https://forums.autosport.com/topic/218801-michael-masi/page-18#entry9722957
someone with a two minute lead can lose it completely, how is that fair?
It’s not fair. Like it’s not fair when Bottas skittles everyone in a wet start. Or when a tyre fails when you’re leading the race Or when someone triggers a yellow flag in Q3 when you’re on a pole lap. Or a million other things. Welcome to motorsport!
But everyone accepts it’s not fair and deals with it, because it’s out in the open and agreed and on the whole better than the alternatives.
Nicely put Bez, can easily add a dozen more things like that onto your list too
Personally I think the results should stand. Does anyone want to see the WDC decided in court?
I would prefer it was decided fairly and I don't believe the result yesterday was fair so yes – I would prefer it was decided in a court (and not just an FIA hearing).
because it’s out in the open and agreed
However the decision made on the fly yesterday that effected the outcome of the Championship was not agreed.
AMuS is reporting Ross Brawn saying that next year the team principle-to-race director radio communication will be cancelled. So not just the broadcast, but the actual communication. It leads to too much pressure on the race director.
Good. I said it a few pages back, having arguments and whining and, in one case, a debate on what position the driver would like in the restart is just insane. TP's should be concentrating on their driver and team strategies, RD should be concentrating on the safety and fair play of the race. Not arguing back and forth on radio and certainly not on a publicly broadcast channel.
Automatic red flag after a set percentage of race distance (85 or 90% for example) is a good suggestion.
Yep with a set of rules on how to manage the end of the race. If (say) <3 laps to go, result stands as at that time. If 3-6 laps then a 1 lap race, grid start using the positions at the time of the flag. If 6-10 laps then a 3-lap race, grid start using the positions at the time of the flag. Teams can change tyres while under red flag. For example.
Although that does bring out the option that someone might "accidentally" pile it into a wall to trigger a race stop, fresh tyres and a grid start again - imagine if LH is out in front by 8 seconds, MV is chasing but his tyres are going off rapidly. Ask Perez to just bounce off a wall, race stops, brand new tyres for MV and he gets to line up right alongside LH for a final 1 lap shootout. I can certainly see some issues with policing all that!
It waould be quite easy to have a rule which says you can’t finish the race under a safety car. If it looks like that is waht is going to happen then the race gets red flagged. You could even have a minimum number of laps to be raced after the race restarts. Job done.
You'd have cars running out of fuel with any extra laps
They use a lot less fuel behind the safety car.
Anyway, it would be a good test of fitness if all the drivers had to push their cars to the finish... hell, I'd watch that.
I remember Mansell trying to do it
Bez
Full Member
someone with a two minute lead can lose it completely, how is that fair?It’s not fair. Like it’s not fair when Bottas skittles everyone in a wet start. Or when a tyre fails when you’re leading the race Or when someone triggers a yellow flag in Q3 when you’re on a pole lap. Or a million other things. Welcome to motorsport!
Bez all your examples are uncontrollable whereas the SC is rule that could be changed to be more fair.
Makes you wonder if they short fuelled Perez not with the intention of slowing Hamilton in the middle of the race, but with the intention of having him run out of fuel toward the end, thus triggering a safety car in the event they were trailing in second...The scenario would've played out similar to how it did in the race. If you don't need it you simply retire the car and no-one is any the wiser. They'd already pretty much given up on the constructors championship.
I’ve heard a lot of folks saying MV deserves to be champion, but it was unfair the circumstances that he won it. That’s surely a bit contradictory
Surely the only way he would deserve to be champion is if he had fairly accumulated more points than Lewis over the season, something which he would have failed to do if not for the intervention of the race director in highly dubious circumstances
I'd have been happy with MV as champion had he actually won the race yesterday, but he didn't, he was gifted it by a purposefully skewed application of the rules. It doesn't seem right. It doesn't sit right.
ctk
Full Member
Bez all your examples are uncontrollable whereas the SC is rule that could be changed to be more fair.
Yet not one suggestion so far has showed fairness, all they've shown is swapping a rule that favours one party for one that favours another
