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His mistake stopped Lewis from overtaking, no way should he of kept his place. For fairness though, he should of been told by the stewards to let Lewis through and raced on from there.
Somebody needs to research the difference between 'of' and 'have' methinks...
(Rhetorical) Question: is pressurising a driver and forcing them to make a mistake a valid racing tactic?
I didn’t watch the race or the incident on the interweb as I’ve just got back from a weekend rave 😎 ... weather was dry and sunny and the choons were ****ing awesome, thanks for asking 😉 . However, emotional reactions such as denial, anger and sulking are all borne from guilt and shame.
I would proffer that SV needs help to start dealing with his personal baggage and issues, otherwise he may never grow up.
(Rhetorical) Question: is pressurising a driver and forcing them to make a mistake a valid racing tactic?
Yes, definitely.
IMO, it’s the inflexibility that is the problem, not the penalty itself.
Verstappen did the same thing in Japan and that set something of a precedent, so Vettel got the same penalty. In fact it could be argued that he got off lightly as there was potential for LH to be pushed into the wall, while Verstappen was 'just' pushing someone off the track into an open area.
The 'where else could I go?' thing just doesn't really cut it as , if it had been a practice, he would have lifted off and made a better return to the track. He chose not to lift and paid the price.
A piece from Palmer that puts my view across far better than I could:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48583803
as his defence said, his natural momentum took him across the full width of the circuit. But in that case he is guilty of rejoining the circuit in an unsafe manner, as he was not in full control of his car, to the extent that he ran Hamilton off the road in an unsafe manner.
But this is the very description of a "racing incident". No way could he brake on the grass, and his momentum took him back onto the track and impeded Hamilton's ill judged attempt to overtake on the outside where it was obvious Vettel would end up. This is my opinion obviously and it doesn't count for squat, same as anyone's apart from the race stewards on the day.
Shame we don't get the telemetry, I'd like to know if he braked/steered out of the way of the racing line at all.
Taxi - there’s a queue of former high end race drivers agreeing with you.
https://formularapida.net/motor-racing-community-react-to-controversial-vettel-hamilton-penalty/
Me? Dunno. Never been that class of race driver (or any class) or an F1 steward.
I wonder what the penalty would have been if he’d slammed on the anchors to n the grass and slid across into car 44 (which wouldn’t have been able to avoid him)?
My best educated guess is that at the level of skill and experience these two top drivers possess, they both probably knew what they were doing. Brinkmanship, sportsmanship... both the same in the heat of competition.
Rosberg's take on it
His mistake stopped Lewis from overtaking
That makes zero sense. Had he not made the mistake, he'd still have been in front. It was his return to the racing line that stopped Lewis overtaking and which resulted in the stewards' decision.
Vettel kept his foot in across the grass knowing full well what he was doing. The clever choice after the incident would be to let Lewis through but they didn't.
What irks me more is the fact ferrari didn't tell Leclerc that Seb had a five second penalty. He was going much faster at this stage and i'm sure would have got under the 5 seconds on the last lap. He stopped pushing so much as he thought the race was done. Once again Ferrari stitched him up like a kipper.
I hope Sebs ridiculous behaviour after the race earns him a massive fine or something. Pathetic and childish.
Tricky one. Not really a vettel fan and his extended strop was most amusing. Lewis can be trying too, but ultimately an exciting driver that takes risks.
We are forgetting though, that Hamilton probably knew exactly what would happen and shoved his car as close to the Ferrari as he could to provoke a steward’s reaction. If he had backed off, Bottas-style, it may have come to nothing. These guys know what they are doing and play the media like they are innocent. Vettel made a mistake, his instinct caused him to defend, Lewis made a meal of it and got the result. It’s a bit like going down easily in the penalty area after a nudge. If you stay upright nothing will get given, if you crumple in a heap, who knows, maybe a penalty. Don’t blame the players, blame the rules.
These are ‘sportspeople’ at the top of their game and they will not give an inch. Do I like it? Not always, no, and if I was in their position I would be the gentleman, but obviously finish last. But when these things happen it really does bring out the ‘real’ competitors and it becomes compulsive viewing.
Vettel kept his foot in across the grass knowing full well what he was doing. The clever choice after the incident would be to let Lewis through but they didn’t.
I think you may be somewhat overestimating the ease with which an F1 car can be controlled on grass when it's just lost traction under braking and is slewing sideways.
We are forgetting though, that Hamilton probably knew exactly what would happen and shoved his car as close to the Ferrari as he could to provoke a steward’s reaction.
Plausible, but a whole lot less plausible than Lewis going for the gap that opened up, backing out at the last possible moment when it became clear that the gap was about to fall apart, and then making the inevitable radio call that's part and parcel of seeing if the regulations will give the result when the rapidly-vanishing gap doesn't.
I don’t doubt he would have gone for the gap but was there a gap? I think he knows vettel too well.
The clever choice after the incident would be to let Lewis through but they didn’t.
Because they are not permitted to do that. Having found that an offence had been committed, they were required to impose a penalty. The most lenient penalty available was to add 5 seconds to the race time.
I think you may be somewhat overestimating the ease with which an F1 car can be controlled on grass when it’s just lost traction under braking and is slewing sideways.
I'm sure burying your foot on the gas is going to help you control it on the grass...
Because they are not permitted to do that. Having found that an offence had been committed, they were required to impose a penalty.
I mean Ferrari not the stewards. If they had done so i'm sure the stewards would have let it ride.
Ricciardo weighs in...
https://www.planetf1.com/news/ricciardo-vettel-block-like-hamiltons-in-monaco/
I’m sure burying your foot on the gas is going to help you control it on the grass…
Did he bury it?
And autosport have more insight on the stewards. They see more than us including the second steering input and the mirror check. The drivers know how to play the game.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/143996/vettel-steering-inputs-key-to-fia-penalty-decision
I’m sure burying your foot on the gas is going to help you control it on the grass…
Have you seen some telemetry, then? Because it doesn’t look like he buried his foot. Do that on grass and you lose the back end.
I've said it before... but you are all missing the opportunity here.
Instead of a dead-duck 5-second penalty that effectively neutralises the race, confuses the fans, leaves everyone unsatisfied and drives all this staffroom chatter and gossip afterwards, just give Vettel a 'long-lap' penalty, like in motoGP.
Then what happens?
1. This puts Vettel behind Hammy on track.
2. He is annoyed, obviously, but charges back up to Hammy, red mist coming down
3. In a Ferrari that is fast on the straight, he takes it to Hammy and has a go for the win.
4. The fans love it.
So we can either have a load of gossiping or a decent race on track. Take yer pick.
That Autosport article gives the detail I’d expected to see. Watching the clip last night of the F1 website, you can slow it to 50% speed, which gives a clearer view of the steering input and Vettel’s head.
To me it looked like it was the fact that he rejoined over the kerb, rather than going left of it and rejoining at a shallower angle and on a flat transition, that necessitated the counter steering, but it was hard to see the subtleties which will be evident from telemetry. The stewards know their onions and they were unanimous.
Don’t get me wrong, though, I think it sucks, but it’s a question of how you fix the rules or the punishment, not the stewards.
just give Vettel a ‘long-lap’ penalty, like in motoGP.
Which is not an option under the current rules. The stewards had two options: ignore the incident or give a 5 second penalty.
To be fair they also had a 10 second penalty and a stop-and-go to play with, but those options would have raised everyone's eyebrows 🙂
Ferrari could release their telemetry data for the incident, in order to clear their diver (at least in the court of public opinion), unless of course it doesn't actually support their histrionics at the decision.
Thing with incidents like this is that appealing the decision is just a formality. I suspect that Ferrari accept that it was a reasonable decision, but they have to make a public show of supporting their driver and there's a remote chance that the appeal will succeed, plus no downside if it fails. It's not just Ferrari, teams always appeal decisions as a routine thing unless there's the possibility of being penalized further.
To return to the "long lap" idea: it's a nice thought, but it's convenient that Montréal happens to have a hairpin with a load of empty space to the outside. We're talking about cars, not bikes, so you need a lot more width to play with and there aren't many circuits at which you could incorporate a long lap option without modification to the track. Good luck making a long lap at Monaco 🙂 So, for better or for worse, time penalties is what we're stuck with for now.
You could dismantle the relevant regulations entirely, removing the difficult line between "hard racing" and illegal behaviour, but those regulations came about by the drivers asking for them so they had clarity. Take them away and you're back to seasons like 1990 and 1994 where the drivers' championships were decided by way of deliberate collisions. Both the drivers who caused those collisions are among the most iconic hard-fighters of F1 history, but it's easy to forget that at the time both incidents were ugly at best and were almost universally condemned.
Clearly Vettel wasn't trying to take Hamilton out—merely to block the pass at most, as any competitive driver would have done—but there's a whole baby/bathwater consideration here: no-one wants to see races or championships decided by stewards' penalties, but nor does anyone want to see them decided by deliberate collisions. There may be better ways of wording the regulations, but if there was a perfect solution it probably would have presented itself by now.
Can we add Ferrari International Assistance to the banned phrases list now?
I seems to remember Vettel getting away with a nasty, double move block on Hamilton at the russian GP last year. Ham got past in the end, using rage as an elbow, but that was typical Vettel, so was Sunday - he doesn't change. Sometimes he gets away with it, sometimes he doesn't.
To return to the “long lap” idea: it’s a nice thought, but it’s convenient that Montréal happens to have a hairpin with a load of empty space to the outside. We’re talking about cars, not bikes, so you need a lot more width to play with and there aren’t many circuits at which you could incorporate a long lap option without modification to the track.
How much time does a 'long lap' add over a normal lap?
Entirely unsurprisingly, Alex Wurz is absolutely spot on:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48593772
Sometimes he gets away with it, sometimes he doesn’t.
I took this as the gist of Hamilton's view of it when he said that he'd have done the same. As track position is king you keep it at all costs, then work it out from there.
I like the idea of a penalty lap/infringement lane though, about the only circuit you couldn't add one to is monaco (or maybe baku) the res all have multiple layouts anyways.
At Monaco you could send them the other way around the casino roundabout and add a little chicane in it. Plenty of room.
I don't think Vettel was trying to put Hamilton into the wall, he was trying to make sure that Lewis couldn't get his front wheel into the gap and Hamilton was the reverse, as they both know that once Lewis' wheel is alongside it's his space.
Reading back over the past couple of pages, I really don't understand the vitriol directed at Vettel. He comes across pretty well, he definitely has a sense of humour and is pretty quick.
As for the penalty, I cannot see how Vettel could've avoided the situation. It's not as though he did an Adelaide '94 on Hamilton, he was already committed to correcting a slide when Hamilton attempted to pass.
No vitriol here. Hamilton would have done the same, as would the rest of them, apart from maybe Bottas. Rosberg would have slammed Hamilton into the barrier, punched him, stamped on his head then say it wasn’t his fault. Like I said, they don’t give an inch.
Here’s an idea, get rid of the grass and put gravel traps back. That’ll slow the nuggets down. And, as the argument goes, they’ll have to be more careful about losing it on a corner and drive properly, damn it.
One alternative to these rules is Schumacheresqe weaving and bullying drivers into the wall, just like the good old days. They’ll soon be whinging about that.
I really don’t understand the vitriol directed at Vettel. He comes across pretty well, he definitely has a sense of humour and is pretty quick.
Erm...
At Monaco you could send them the other way around the casino roundabout and add a little chicane in it. Plenty of room.
Hmm. The occasional car slowing unexpectedly online on the way into the Square? Not sure that'd pass the risk assessment.
As for the penalty, I cannot see how Vettel could’ve avoided the situation. It’s not as though he did an Adelaide ’94 on Hamilton, he was already committed to correcting a slide when Hamilton attempted to pass.
He could've, but he would have had to work at it, and he would have lost the spot - definitely opened the wheel to block LH once back on track. Wurz's observation in Bez's post above is spot on.
On another front - Bottas has better get next years contract pushed through asap! He's reverted back to Bottas version one in the last few races.
pondo - He could’ve, but he would have had to work at it, and he would have lost the spot – definitely opened the wheel to block LH once back on track. Wurz’s observation in Bez’s post above is spot on.
Wurz in Bez’s link
Therefore I would have not seen it as action to be penalised, very much as I would have not penalised Verstappen in Suzuka either.
Bottas has better get next years contract pushed through asap! He’s reverted back to Bottas version one in the last few races.
Shame, I liked watching him really push Hamilton but he is starting to fade again.
I guess the only person who wasn't pleased with his revival would have been one Mr E Ocon, he'll be hoping for a return of last year's Bottas
igm -
pondo – one thing
Wurz in Bez’s link
Another, unrelated thing
He … definitely opened the wheel to block LH once back on track. Wurz’s observation in Bez’s post above is spot on.
Hm?
As far as I can see, Wurz disagrees entirely with your assessment of Vettel's actions. His comments from the linked article:
"It wasn't intentional to close the door and squeeze Lewis … I don't think he drove in front of Lewis intentionally, as aggressive as it might look on TV, because his head moves to look in the mirror [only] after the correction is finished."
I thought it was ****ing obvious, but let me separate the two things.
1 - Vettel opened the wheel to prevent Hamilton passing him (IMVHO).
2 - The rules are sufficiently detailed as to specify that a penalty in that case must be applied.
I don't agree with Wurtz where he says Vettel's move was not deliberate - I also don't particularly agree that the punishment fit the crime, or that any punishment even need be necessary. I do agree with him that the rules specify that a penalty be applied, as a result of the community insisting that behaviour be increasingly moderated,.
Well it wasn’t obvious to me pondo.
When you said Wurz was spot on, I assumed you meant you agreed with what he said, not some bits of what he said.
However. You are clear now so that’s fine.
I thought it was **** obvious
To be fair, writing "[Opinion X]. Wurz's observation is spot on." rather implies that you're referring to Wurz's observation about Opinion X, not Opinion Y 🙂
Anyway, no matter. We (and Wurz) agree that a punishment wasn't necessary in this case, at least.
Personally I don't agree the steering was for blocking. It's exactly the steering input I'd expect to see when the front end bumps over a kerb and hits tarmac while the back end's still on the grass. Without that the car would spin, which would be more dangerous than what Vettel did.
For me (and I think, logically, for anyone who takes the above view about the steering) the only question is whether Vettel could/should have rejoined the track at a shallower angle across the flat transition to the left of the kerb, which would have kept him off the racing line and required less steering correction. But getting the car under control—which takes time and thought in itself—and then making that non-instinctive decision and getting the car appropriately positioned and turned while on grass in the heat of the moment is a big ask. It takes someone with more insight into a top F1 driver's cognitive capacity to make the call as to whether it's too big an ask or not.
Personally I don’t agree the steering was for blocking. It’s exactly the steering input I’d expect to see when the front end bumps over a kerb and hits tarmac while the back end’s still on the grass. Without that the car would spin, which would be more dangerous than what Vettel did.
But they're not talking about the steering when he bumps over the grass/kerb/immediately after rejoining the track to avoid a spin; they are talking about him opening the steering after the corrections are all done. He (allegedly) opens the wheel again to let the car run wide into Hamilton's path. They think he could have steered away from the wall once the car was stable.
Anyway, back to the serious business 😎 Rich Energy are making more friends:
https://twitter.com/harrismonkey/status/1138540745168752640
But they’re not talking about the steering when he bumps over the grass/kerb/immediately after rejoining the track to avoid a spin; they are talking about him opening the steering after the corrections are all done. He (allegedly) opens the wheel again to let the car run wide into Hamilton’s path. They think he could have steered away from the wall once the car was stable.
Mm, it's a bit hard to pick apart the exact details because in this scenario the rules don't differentiate between a deliberately dangerous manoeuvre and a recovery that happens to be dangerous. From watching the onboard in slow motion my thoughts were the same as what Wurz seems to be saying: that he regained control on the grass but then (quite understandably) didn't try to turn the car once it was controlled, bumped back onto the track and inevitably had to open the steering to correct the effects of going from a low-friction surface to a high-friction one at an angle and over a kerb, and then once he'd collected that he looked in the mirror and didn't appear to steer to the right again.
The stewards have access to more data than I or even Wurz do, though, so it's all a bit moot; I'm sure they made a quite justifiable decision. But I don't think I've seen anything from the stewards to suggest that there was intentional blocking. Happy to change opinion if that does appear, though.
Without that the car would spin, which would be more dangerous than what Vettel did.
Indeed, if he'd spun and centre punched Hamilton with the rear of his car we wouldn't be talking penalties only that S%&# happens, pity but thats racing.
It was all just racing. Blocking is part of racing. And Vettel’s course of action was totally foreseeable for anyone who’s done even done a bit of racing, let alone Hamilton who’s spent 12 years at the top. He knew it was going to be close when Vettel rejoined and he went for the gap as much as possible until it was clear it was likely to end up with a collision if he didn’t back off. Both of them did the things, the right things, that any decent racer would do.
Unfortunately the rules are what they are now, which lands us with this silly mess.
Although at least we no longer have to listen to Alonso radioing in every time someone so much as farts in front of him.
From watching the onboard in slow motion my thoughts were the same as what Wurz seems to be saying: that he regained control on the grass but then (quite understandably) didn’t try to turn the car once it was controlled, bumped back onto the track and inevitably had to open the steering to correct the effects of going from a low-friction surface to a high-friction one at an angle and over a kerb, and then once he’d collected that he looked in the mirror and didn’t appear to steer to the right again.
I still think you're still looking too early in the incident (if I'm interpreting the autosport article right).
Once he's on the tarmac, count how many times he steers right. One big turn to correct the snap, then after that two or three more times to (allegedly) adjust his line to block hamilton when he could continued going left.
I say allegedly because I'm not sure I agree with their view, but I think that's what they're taking about.
"Although at least we no longer have to listen to Alonso radioing in every time someone so much as farts in front of him."
We've now got Groanjean for that.
then after that two or three more times to (allegedly) adjust his line to block hamilton when he could continued going left.
I dunno, I'm not seeing anything that looks beyond what I'd expect for correcting the car. Meh 🙂
We’ve now got Groanjean for that.
Yeah, true, Perez's (excellent) pass at turn 1 was a good example; I guess it's normally overshadowed by his constant complaints about his brakes or various other bits of his car. Though it seems that last weekend that job was taken on in toe-curlingly spectacular fashion by his teammate 🙂
Verstappen in a Merc next year with Vettel?
Hamo to Ferrari?
Can't see that happening, but would love to see Lewis in a Ferrari.
Why on earth would Merc be interested in swapping Hamilton for Vettel? And why would Hamilton want to leave the most dominant team in history for one that can't even get simple strategy calls right?
Why on earth would Merc be interested in swapping Hamilton for Vettel?
German team - German driver. Board may feel they have milked Hamilton's profile for as much as they'll get.
Can't see Vettel shifting many units to the U.S. rap crowd though! 🙂
And I feel Lewis will end his career in a Ferrari. Possible jumping in a year before the new regs come out may be a sensible option.
And I bet secretly Lewis would love to give Ferrari their first drivers title since Kimi - getting one over Alonso and Vettel into the bargain.
Merc have already had a WDC with a German driver, not too long ago...
My money is on Lewis staying at Merc until he equals Schumacher's tally of WDCs before moving to Ferrari. He might feel that the aggravation of building a team around him there is fraught with difficulty given that it's stymied people of the calibre of Prost, Alesi, Alonso and Vettel.
German team – German driver.
They're a German owned team, not a German team. I don't think they care about where their drivers come from, just whether they can deliver. Hamilton breaking record after record is much better for marketing than Vettel throwing away title after title.
Ferrari Appeal thrown out.
There are no significant or new elements which were unavailable to the parties at the time
Clucking bell, Williams are miles off the pace still. And Kubica slower than Russell and Latifi.
Hamilton under investigation in FP2 for rejoining in an unsafe manner and forcing another driver off the track 🙈
Old news?! He was cleared of it as he, verstsappen and the stewards all agreed there was nothing he could do about it, he rejoined slowly and there was no chance he could see verstsappen coming from the circuit profile, corner and mirror visibility
Good to see Maclaren getting some decent times in.
mr pole at it again.
Fingerboy not having a good day...
Who's going to get the boot first - Gasly or Kubika? Horner made it pretty clear on C4 that Gasly needs to start delivering, and I read that Kubikas sponsors are looking for other options for him. Oh and will that be before Seb quits?
McLaren doing the usual Alonso leaving a team bounce! Also just how good does Lando Norris look, no wonder they dropped Vandoorne to give Norris a seat.
Maybe, just maybe, Ferrari might try helping Leclerc to capitalise on that 3rd place? Or will then still move him out the way to let FingerBoy through...?
Wild predictions for next year:
Kvyat promoted back to Red Bull senior team to replace Gasly. (Quite likely IMO).
Vettel retires, replaced by Ricciardo. (Less likely, but possible).
Alonso back to Renault to replace Ricciardo. (Not likely, but can't hurt to hope).
Can't see Hamilton leaving Mercedes for ferrari, ferrari are only capable of shooting themselves in the foot, anyone hear the exchange between leclerc asking Vettel to get a move on. Classic
a lot of nursing some very hot and bothered motors out front
Safety car please. This is shite.
Struggling to stay awake here!!
Terrible race from Gasly. Another 'too-soon' promotion from Red Bull?
Gasley is for the chop at this rate
