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Got to feel sorry for Alonso. He really must be the unluckiest driver out there. The one course his car is good for, in conditions he excels in, and he gets walloped by a three-wheeled Ferrari
And Kvyat forgets how to drive as soon as he's in free space 😆
...has he signed that contract for next year yet!? 😀
[quote=zokes ]Got to feel sorry for Alonso. He really must be the unluckiest driver out there. The one course his car is good for, in conditions he excels in, and he gets walloped by a three-wheeled Ferrari
and the only reason he was there to get walloped is because he was so good on the start
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the-muffin-man - Member
Yeeeeeeeeeeessssss!!!!!
for a potentially interesting season becoming dull as dishwater again?
for a potentially interesting season becoming dull as dishwater again?
If it was anyone but Vettel in the battle I'd agree. But I just can't stand him.
And even if the Championship fizzles out a bit it doesn't mean there won't be good races.
Seeing as the start incident is under investigation afterwards what's the possibility of Vettel getting a penalty?
[quote=milky1980 ]Seeing as the start incident is under investigation afterwards what's the possibility of Vettel getting a penalty?
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WTF is going on with this perpetual safety car? Whatever happened to the vitual safety car?
How much time is Hamilton going to lose in total? This is total BS not racing.
According to SkyF1 Ferrari have said that Max was to blame for the accident!!! 😯
Ferrari tweeting it was Verstappen's fault but they're all up to the stewards, maybe the Help button is broken 😉
I thing Singapore has more firepower in that fireworks display than South Korea 😀
And even if the Championship fizzles out a bit it doesn't mean there won't be good races.
bookies with give good odds against a good race happening
Dunno if the titles over yet. Lewis hasn't had a dnf this year, how often does anyone get through a season at the sharp end without one?
Lewis hasn't had a dnf this year,
Which means that his car is reliable and he's driving well. Which means that he is less likely to have a DNF than others. Ferrari are now in a position where they have to take risks, so they have more chance of DNFs than Merc, who can afford to cruise and give away minor points to avoid taking risks.
Pity. I'd rather see Vettel, who comes across as quite likeable, than Hamilton, who doesn't, win it.
Both good drivers though. No one could say this year that they were poor drivers in a car that they couldn't lose in.
Having met Hamilton in person earlier this year I have to say the media portrays him in a very negative light. He was really approachable and took time to chat about the forthcoming season. I have to say I really didn't think much of him up until then and it totally changed my opinion of him.
[quote=igm ]Pity. I'd rather see Vettel, who comes across as quite likeable
[img] http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/4010ffded972e7073379219a0fda3936 [/img]
Nope. Based on interviews, never met either of them, just find Vettel more likeable.
Well that ruined a potentially great race.
[i] aracer - Member
Well that changed the WC in about 5 seconds - and it was all Vettel's own fault [/i]
Yup!
Watched the start on YT and Vettel trying to put a move on a better starting Red Bull, precipitated results which would not please Ferrari.
Sometimes I wonder what's happening inside the helmet of car 5. Esp in light of Baku.
Seems to me, that being a [i]great[/i] requires at times that the driver arrests the red mist so as see the larger picture.
in that regard LH seems to be a better racer than SV.
Adjudged racing incident and no further action to be taken. No surprise there then. I'm sure Vettel could get away with carrying a gun in future and shooting out rivals' tyres - as long as he is driving for Ferrari that is.
I would oh so love to see Bottas overtake Vettel in the World Championship because he's a smug git who thinks he can get away with anything.
Ferrari, after taking a bit of heat on twitter are saying that they're first tweet was "a factual description of events, no need to speculate on this"
Arrogant cretins.
[quote=Solo ]Sometimes I wonder what's happening inside the helmet of car 5. Esp in light of Baku.
Oh yeah good point - another data point for why people dislike Vettel.
[quote=forzafkawi ]Adjudged racing incident and no further action to be taken.
To be fair, that's probably the correct decision. Because drivers do cut across like that on the start all the time and get away with it. Not that it wasn't a really stupid thing to do, but there's an argument that he's already got his punishment.
I have to admit I did think at the time he should have been penalised for causing an accident, but the silence from the commentators (who all know much more about it than I do) on that issue was telling.
[quote=Ming the Merciless ]Ferrari, after taking a bit of heat on twitter are saying that they're first tweet was "a factual description of events, no need to speculate on this"
Arrogant cretins.
https://twitter.com/ScuderiaFerrari/status/909444924227096576
I'm not sure I've seen a team mess up quite as badly on social media by refusing to accept their driver's* blame like this.
* note the placement of the apostrophe - driver singular
To be fair, that's probably the correct decision. Because drivers do cut across like that on the start all the time and get away with it. Not that it wasn't a really stupid thing to do, but there's an argument that he's already got his punishment.I have to admit I did think at the time he should have been penalised for causing an accident, but the silence from the commentators (who all know much more about it than I do) on that issue was telling.
I don't accept that. If he had caused that crash and got away with it would he have been punished then? If so, the crime is the same, just the outcome is different.
We've seen plenty of "racing incidents" result in time and drive through penalties in the last few years. I don't see this as any different.
The fact is, to punish Vettel effectively would harm the World Championship race even further and they can't risk that can they?
There was an article by Darren Heath, the F1 photographer, a few weeks backs basically calling Ferrari a nasty team with an attitude problem. Looks like he wasn't wrong.
Ferrari tweeting it was Verstappen's fault but they're all up to the stewards, maybe the Help button is broken
Max doesn't even get to turn the steering wheel for the whole race and ends up in a ferrari sandwich 🙂
Where's that Darren heath blog sobriety? My Google Fu is letting me down
Pity. I'd rather see Vettel, who comes across as quite likeable, than Hamilton, who doesn't, win it.
Most rosiest tinted glasses ever.
Pity. I'd rather see Vettel, who comes across as quite likeable, than Hamilton, who doesn't, win it.
Ditto
Sometimes I wonder what's happening inside the helmet of car 5.
TBH, he probably didn't realise that Raikkonen was steaming up the inside.
TBH, he probably didn't realise that Raikkonen was steaming up the inside.
You might have thought he'd have considered the possibility of more than one car to his left though. Given he has at least a little experience with racing cars.
Sebs move was dangerous in the circumstances. Wet conditions and he knows he's gottaway slowly. Punishment would have been harsh though because the start is generally considered a free-for-all
[url= https://www.darrenheath.com/blog/disgracing-themselves ]Darren Heath blog[/url], I think.
Fair to say he's not a fan:
Ferrari really are a horrible team right now. Dismissive of interest, completely devoid of any grace, charm or humility, they exude an aggressive arrogance that is bitter in its mien and wholly unpleasant to experience.
Pity. I'd rather see Vettel, who comes across as quite likeable, than Hamilton, who doesn't, win it.
Hamilton often seems childish, but at his best, he seems like quite a nice, genuine guy. Vettel seems like an arrogant, spoiled prick. After the road rage incident, I just don't see how people could find Vettel likable. I think both are exceptionally good drivers, Vettel deserves to be a multiple champion, but Hamilton has had some extremely good teammates and beat them fair and square. It will always be a question mark over Vettel that he's never had to fight the same quality of teammates without the team giving him favored status. Ricciardo handed him his arse and Vettel moved on pretty quickly once he realized he was no longer the favored one. Plus, Ferrari as a team seem to be back to acting like pricks, so I'd be happy to see anybody win except Vettel.
Given he has at least a little experience with racing cars.
Fair enough, then by the same token Riakkonen shares some blame as he must have realised Vettal would likely want to force Verstappen to brake hard into the first corner, and cutting off his line of retreat would likely cause an accident as he has "a little bit of experience" also.
Agree that this reveals arrogant driving by the Ferrari team
Given Raikonen's start, he probably had some justification in thinking he might be race leader by the end of turn 1.
Vettel, having fluffed his start, had no excuse for lunging around, full in the knowledge that rather than cutting off a rival, he'd at best be dead alongside. But then he's an arrogant little shit when it doesn't go his way, as already demonstrated many times, but most overtly in Baku.
Max was just there, driving on his own spot of road, and under no obligation whatsoever to move out of Seb's (or anyone else's) way.
Max was just there, driving on his own spot of road, and under no obligation whatsoever to move out of Seb's (or anyone else's) way.
If it was anybody except Max, I would agree, but he seems to have no problem swerving around in front of people. He's obviously very talented, but to me, he gets second prize in the arrogant, entitled prick status after Vettel. The irony of those two taking each other out at the first corner is magnificent. Just a pity Alonso didn't survive to win the race. That would have been perfect.
But then he's an arrogant little shit when it doesn't go his way
Of course he is. You just described a successful F1 driver. All of them, without exception.
Although I will accept whining instead of arrogant.
Hamilton often seems childish, but at his best, he seems like quite a nice, genuine guy. Vettel seems like an arrogant, spoiled prick.
Hamilton is likeable enough on the track and they're all whiny or arrogant, but it's the off track behaviour that just leaves me cold.
Same as Wiggins and Froome. I enjoy Wiggins showboating sitting in golden thrones and pretending to be a Mod-star about as little as Hamilton doing the equivalent.
Vettel on the track / in the paddock is arrogant and ruthless, same as Senna or Schumacher (or Hamilton - none of them known for leaving a door open that could be slammed) but off the track seems to come across as a guy who's just there to race.
Anyone who thinks F1 champions get there by being nice needs their head examining.
Each to their own though.
Agreed on all fronts hols2, but on this occasion I do offer Max's mitigation that aside from being there, he appeared to have no part to play in the collision, no matter how deserving he might have been for a clout. It's also worth noting that he's only young - I hope I wasn't that much of a prick 15 years ago, bit I'm aware I didn't exactly cover myself in glory a few times. In that respect, Max is just a very high profile young man with a bit too much cash and a bit too much ego. Hopefully he'll moderate it in time, as lets face it, he'll be around for quite some time yet.
at his best, he seems like quite a nice, genuine guy.
Tax avoiding narcissist
TBH all racers will be ruthless on the track and a little selfish this drive is what gets them to the very top of a very competitive sport
All of them, without exception.
Well, maybe not Massa or Baraccelo, but then that probably also explains why they never won anything...
Zokes - possibly Coulthard too. Oh wait, theme developing?
Damon Hill sort of bucks the trend I guess
Zokes - possibly Coulthard too. Oh wait, theme developing?
...and add Bottas to the list. Fast becoming a World Class No.2 driver. 😀
Anyone who thinks F1 champions get there by being nice needs their head examining.Each to their own though.
Button
on this occasion I do offer Max's mitigation that aside from being there, he appeared to have no part to play in the collision
Yes, that's the irony of it. On other occasions, he got away with stuff that he shouldn't have. In this case, he was innocent but got taken out. Karma, eh.
Yes, all top sportspeople are ruthless and arrogant to a degree, but I always found Webber, Ricciardo, and Button to not seem like arseholes, for example. Alonso has acted like a right prick at times, but as he's matured, his behavior on track seems to have been impeccable. He seems to be able to race extremely hard without needing to swerve around trying to intimidate people. Same goes for Ricciardo. I do hope Max improves as he matures, he clearly is a very good driver.
What I don't understand is why a manoeuvre like Vettel's is even allowed at the start of a race. All the cars are tightly bunched to begin with and under full acceleration to get to the first corner. The pole is already staggered to allow the best qualifier a slight advantage, if he doesn't get away smartly then tough shit, he should have to hold his line.
How many times have we seen multiple car pile-ups at the start of a Grand Prix over the years? You think the authorities would have ruled all this nonsense out by now or had a rolling start like many other forms of motorsport.
How many times have we seen multiple car pile-ups at the start of a Gran Prix over the years? You think the authorities would have ruled all this nonsense out by now or had a rolling start like many other forms of motorsport.
If they did that they might as well (in most cases) proceed under safety car all the way to the podium! The start is usually the only bit of semi-guaranteed action.
There was an article by Darren Heath, the F1 photographer, a few weeks backs basically calling Ferrari a nasty team with an attitude problem. Looks like he wasn't wrong.
To be honest, I've always thought that you could say that about Ferrari at any time in the last 70 years.
The start is usually the only bit of semi-guaranteed action.
Really? You get a semi *every* time?
hols2 - Member
After the road rage incident, I just don't see how people could find Vettel likable.
And after multi 21 when he lied about it and pretended it was a mistake. I would have liked & respected him a lot more if he'd just told the truth.
I'd like to add James Hunt and Jim Clark to the 'seemingly nice guys who were world champions' list
If they did that they might as well (in most cases) proceed under safety car all the way to the podium! The start is usually the only bit of semi-guaranteed action.
So you just what the start of a race then do you?
that is very unfair have you forgotten the thrill of seeing who has the best tyre strategy, who pits at the right time and what team can change them the fastest.The start is usually the only bit of semi-guaranteed action.
PURE RACING 😉
that is very unfair have you forgotten the thrill of seeing who has the best tyre strategy, who pits at the right time and what team can change them the fastest.
And which Honda keeps barking longest.
So you just what the start of a race then do you?
Given the time of day that it's broadcast here in Oz, frequently but unintentionally yes 😆
You are however going to go some way to convince me that on average, the start isn't the most interesting bit. Sure, some races are crackers, but there are many that are not.
10 points for qualifying and 25 for the race.
But start in reverse qualifying order.
That'd make it more interesting both in the race and across the season.
Starting with the fastest car at the front is unlikely to make for good racing.
But good drivers in good cars have often come up through the field.
And it would probably reward not all following the same pit / tyre strategy.
I think Hamilton comes across quite well, a truly worthy world champ in my humble opinion.
But we're talking about a male dominated sport which requires measured aggression and the need to physically tame a 1,000hp F1 car. You're going to get more than your normal share of knobbers. Remember Piquet and Salazar having a punch up by the side of the track? Or when James Hunt floored the marshal sent to help extricate him from a broken down car? Or Mansell's behaviour in press conferences during the end of his tenure with Ferrari and his second tenure at Williams?
He's a worthy champion no doubt.
And if he kept it in the car / press conference I'd probably quite like him.
It's the showboating away from the track that has me thinking "come on, really?"
Or when James Hunt floored the marshal sent to help extricate him from a broken down car?
Oof, I don't remember this! I can see why it didn't make it into 'Rush' lol
The problem is we all know who are the best drivers all that F1 does is say who has the best car
Even this year where merc and ferrari are racing they are essentially winning on different types of tracks so there is still very little on track racing
I have not watched for years as its easier to just watch the start then read the report afterwards as there is very very little "pure racing" going on
I cannot imagine every sitting through one live
Even the commentators discuss tyres and strategy more than racing
10 points for qualifying and 25 for the race.But start in reverse qualifying order.
You'd have to give even points otherwise the top guys wouldn't compete in qualifying at all. Thgey'd start in the front 6 positions and guarantee more points than Q + R.
Knock out anyone not within say 10% of the top Qualy time
Knock out anyone not within say 10% of the top Qualy time
In which case you hire a number 2 to set the pole time. The team with the fastest car will have the best idea of what the likely pole time will be, but will sandbag up until the final lap of qualifying. They will then send their number 1 out to set a time just inside the cutoff. The other teams will not have such a clear idea of the cutoff time so will either have to qualify more quickly and hence start further back or risk elimination. Fascinating strategy wise, not sure that tv audiences will find the spectacle of a slow-race very exciting.
If it was anybody except Max
I don't agree with that at all, he is the one that initally opens the door and then chops into Kimi. End of the day it's a bit of a racing incident, but Max isn't without blame in my book
he is the one that initally opens the door and then chops into Kimi [b][u]whilst trying to avoid being mangled by a veering Seb[/u][/b]
FTFY
Isn't there reverse qualifying grid positions in one of the other formulas? So it must work for them, right?
Honda mud-slinging has started - this could be good as the season draws to a close!...
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mclaren-finds-adapting-to-change-hard-says-honda-954909/
he is the one that initally opens the door and then chops into Kimi whilst trying to avoid being mangled by a veering Seb
Watch it head on and Max is going to his right and Vettel to his left, so both are to blame. If Max hadn't gone right Kimi couldn't have got through and the rest could never of happened.
[quote=zokes ]
How many times have we seen multiple car pile-ups at the start of a Gran Prix over the years? You think the authorities would have ruled all this nonsense out by now or had a rolling start like many other forms of motorsport.
If they did that they might as well (in most cases) proceed under safety car all the way to the podium! The start is usually the only bit of semi-guaranteed action.
If you mean a rolling start, then yes I agree, no need for them to do that. However I do tend to agree that swerving across the track in the way Vettel did should be outlawed - at any other point in the race you would be penalised for moving that far off the line on a straight (in theory - Rosberg got away with it when he put LH on the grass).
[I]dragon - Member
Watch it head on and Max is going to his right and Vettel to his left, so both are to blame. If Max hadn't gone right Kimi couldn't have got through and the rest could never of happened.
[/I]
Not sure I agree entirely there.
Imo that accident started with SV making a poor start which he then tried to recover from, during the run into the first corner. I think better racers would have made a different call.
However, that doesn't address the psychological war between SV and MV.
If it hasn't already been established, then both will want to prove to the other that in such a situation, They ain't gonna budge. Who "[I]owns[/I]" who, etc, etc.
With the benefit of the wisdom of hindsight, it's easy to suggest SV should have backed out, in order to address the larger goal of scoring points with which to take the title fight onwards.
It's not over by any stretch, but SV could and should have made a different choice, imo.
By comparison, I believe LH has made several poor starts during the last 18 months, but when doing so rarely ends up crashing at the first corner, [b]IIRC[/b].
[I]aracer - Member
However I do tend to agree that swerving across the track in the way Vettel did should be outlawed[/I]
Indeed, wasn't MV the subject of similarly dangerous driving, changing position in the braking zone?
Furthermore, I'm also reminded that AFAIK, doesn't SV has a very high number of points on his super license?
[quote=dragon ]Watch it head on and Max is going to his right and Vettel to his left, so both are to blame. If Max hadn't gone right Kimi couldn't have got through and the rest could never of happened.
I've watched it head on, and yes Max does initially move right, then he moves back to the left when he sees Vettel coming across. Sure the first contact is between Max and Kimi, but at that point the whole thing is inevitable given Vettel's trajectory - you could argue that Max should have stayed further to the right and not hit Kimi first, but in that case Vettel would have shunted him into Kimi anyway. Fundamentally the question is what could any of them have done to avoid the incident - anything Max did different wouldn't have prevented the crash (and the same goes for Kimi) the only person who could have avoided it was Vettel, hence he's the one who is to blame for it and I don't think you can reasonably blame Max at all.
Or are you suggesting that Max opening the door for Kimi way before Vettel chops across makes him to blame? 🙄 In case you hadn't noticed there was still space on the right of Max for about 3 cars even after he moved slightly to the right and him giving Kimi space only caused the collision in the sense that it allowed Vettel to cause it. Also check out the overhead, you'll see most of the cars on the left of the grid moving to the right as they come off the line, presumably because they need to be on the right to make the first corner - and Vettel was trying to stop Max getting a decent line by chipping across.
What exactly do you think Max should have done differently (preferably without requiring ESP)?
Isn't there reverse qualifying grid positions in one of the other formulas? So it must work for them, right?
I don't know how they allocate points. Key thing about the proposal above is that there were many more points for winning the race than winning pole position, plus prize money is awarded for the constructor's championship, not the drivers. If equal points were awarded for qualifying as for the race, then it would make sense for the teams to prioritize pole position, then aim to pick up whatever points they could from the race. With many more points for the race than pole position, the strategy options will become complex and teams would probably hire designated number 2 drivers to optimize strategy for the constructors championship. I don't see how it would improve the tv show.