[Closed] Example of the over blown public sector?

In a business... if you get it wrong you’re out of a job.

Well, unless your a banker, or some other senior management figure, in which case you'll be largely immune to the consequences of your own f*ck ups, however much money it drains from the economy.

If people are going to start arguing that the private sector represents better value for money, they could start by illustrating it from our experience of the railways, Royal Mail and the water companies.

Hora - don't worry, you can watch Secretary as homework.

Bankers aren't in a magical job you know.

The big figures you hear about them making. its called Trading. **** that, you might make big money but it depends on LONG hours, stress and the City-culture. People are churned/burnt out after a couple of years. Only the 'survivors' last longest.

Well, unless your a banker, or some other senior management figure, in which case you'll be largely immune to the consequences of your own f*ck ups

No mate that's really not true and I can tell you I've seen the casualties from the finance sector in the last two years. Those guys are no longer there I can assure you.

it depends on LONG hours, stress and the City-culture. People are churned/burnt out after a couple of years. Only the 'survivors' last longest.

Bunch of wimps! The only stress they have is what ****ing Porsche to buy next! And if they didn't do so much Charlie, then maybe they'd be a little calmer...

Seriously, try working in an inner-city school, with some proper violent kids, not to mention the parents. Kids who are being abused. Kids with learning difficulties. Bullying. Having to meet performance targets. Walking on eggshells re H+S. Trying to get the little shits to realise the only way out of the holes they are in, is through education, when they're all too busy listening to Beyonce.

Stress? Those bankers are soft as shite. Ponces.

"What would the PA of a CEO of a company employing more than 100 staff get paid? "

Most companies of 100 staff (ish) won't have a full time PA to the CEO.

"What do you think a head does? Deal with thousands of (buzz word alert) stake holders, manage a multi million budget, accountable to government, lead a team of hundreds and to be honest that is scratching the surface. "

Surely the big difference between a head and a CEO is that the head doesn't raise the millions they get given to spend. Spending money is considerably easier than having to earn it.

There's also the question of competency here - many CEO's don't have full time PA's now - and even in very large companies (FTSE10) with hundreds oif thousands of staff the CEO will typically only have one CEO - Terry Leahy (Tesco) is one such person. So why does a school head with less than 100 staff need one if not to cover for that person not being terribly well organised?

You've never worked in sales have you.

Bunch of wimps! The only stress they have is what ****ing Porsche to buy next!

Mate I like that you're engaged in the debate but you're getting a bit offensive here. There are maybe 100,000 people working in the city of London that are in the really high earner category, i.e. the sort of earnings that could allow them to buy a porsche if they wanted. But they do work pretty ****ing hard. I know, I've seen it first hand and trust me I wouldn't want to do that job regardless of the money. But the more relevant point is that it's 100,000 out of around several million people currently employed by the banks. You're not being particularly discriminating when you make that statement.

I was making a point about the traders that Hora refers to; I've no doubt it's a moderately stressful job, but no more stressful than most, and far less stressful than others. People's greed puts them under 'stress'.

I know several people that work in the City. They have far less real stress in their lives than any of the teachers I know. And get paid a lot more. And by their own admission, are of less 'value' to society.

As for 'offensive'; I find that a bit rich, coming from someone who obviously values themselves above someone else whose job they have no knowledge about.

who obviously values themselves above someone else whose job they have no knowledge about.

When did I ever make that statement? And as I have already pointed out, I am pretty well informed about the job market and the role of a PA. I couldn't and wouldn' make the same claim about teachers, nurses or police men because I am not as well informed about them.

I think you think I am having a go at teachers and I am not. I support what they do entirely and think that whatever they are paid, frankly it's not enough. It's one of the hardest jobs I think you can take, one of the most valuable to society and one of, if not the, most undervalued in terms of pay.

But we're not talking about teachers, we're talking about a PA.

I couldn't and wouldn' make the same claim about teachers, nurses or police men because I am not as well informed about them.

But then you've posted this:

I support what they do entirely and think that whatever they are paid, frankly it's not enough. It's one of the hardest jobs I think you can take, one of the most valuable to society and one of, if not the, most undervalued in terms of pay.

😆

What I think and what I can speak knowledgably about are not the same thing.

In the absence of any information to the contrary, I am prepared to believe that teachers have a difficult job that they are unerpaid for. It's not the same thing as saying, I know this to be relatively true.

What I think and what I can speak knowledgably about are not the same thing.

I concur.

I'm not sure what the relevance is of teachers of violent inner city kids, we're talking about a PA in Milton Keynes, sure the place is a shite-hole but I doubt he/she will have to wear body armour whilst taking minutes.
My parents are ex-teachers and my sister-in-law teaches now and I wouldn't (and nor do they) call their jobs stressful. Especially once you've taught an entire year and have class notes already done.

I concur.

Touche! 😆

This is nothing to do with the thieving scum (sorry my autism ruining my chance of ever being diplomatic) in the City - they need lining up and shooting. I just think, to get back to the original question, that £38,000 is too much for a secretary / PA. In MK I would expect it to be about 26-30,000 assuming a 52 week year (I imagine there is still alot of organising to be done even during school holidays). Comparison with our secretaries and PAs here (central London - £28-32,000, moderately hard working); teachers themselves, police, military, clerical staff typically and so on suggests, to me at least, that £38K is more than needs to be offered even for an exceptional person. Its true I don't know the precise job spec but the clue is in the name - organising mainly, some typing. Not an easy job but not a £38k job.

The public sector needs to get real over the excess of pubic spending since 2002. Believe it or not I am a Guardian reading Liberal voter but the clear out is going to be big and its long overdue.

Stress? Those bankers are soft as shite. Ponces.

You sound quite bitter - have you considered retraining as a banker? Apparently the most stressful thing they have to do is working out what sort of Porsche they are going to buy.

That is pretty stressful though. Have you seen the options list???

In a business... if you get it wrong you’re out of a job.

I don't buy this private sector = efficiency argument one little bit. Some of the easiest jobs I've ever had were working for private enterprises. My GF's dad works on the railways for private contractors and the tales of waste, inefficiency and ludicrous multiple layers of subcontracting there are absolutely shocking.

he clear out is going to be big and its long overdue.

The hardest hit will be the poorest and most vulnerable people in our society.

As long as the bankers are ok though, eh? 🙄

[img] [/img]

yep, teachers should get paid more, I agree.

But, and I admit I could be wrong here, this isn't public sector gorn mad is it? Isn't it the school deciding what budget they have available to pay for this post, rather than some union demanding higher wages for PA's?

And some job's just pay more. I've got a job in a hospital, and a post-grad qualification is essential. But I get paid less than a bin man. But there's less demand for my job, so they can offer a lower wage.

I reckon the public sector is applying market forces on the sly.

[i]My point was that this is a small organisation, it's 1000 pupils, it's not a large massively complex orgnisation[/i]

It takes a team of 4 people (including a part timer, me, a chair of governors) to run a primary school of nearly 160 pupils (foundation to yr2) our budget is nearly £1.5 million, there literally aren't enough hours in the day to do what we need to do. If I didn't run my own business and so dictate largely my own hours I don't know how I'd fit the work i need to do in my day, and we're a successfully performing small school in a reasonably well off town with no major problem children. A secondary school with a 1000 pupils? in a large urban setting? Yep I'd want at least that sort of money to be a PA to a head...

People in the public sector haven't yet woken up and smelt the coffee when it comes to the recession. There can't be many private companies that haven't stopped wage increases, bonus, asked staff to take a 10% pay cut, sacked people, etc. The public sector just seems to want to carry on as normal and doesn't seem to get it that they should be doing the same for less. Everyone else has so why not them.

How about this for a job advert
Bristol based charity teaching under privileged and disabled children to ride bikes. Great idea which I do support, however!!
Co-ordinator wanted, 2 days per week, work from home and choose your hours,
Remember this is a charity
£19,000 fixed 2 year contract

if you are so jealous apply for the jobs FFS as you point out its free market, if you dont want it **** off and stop moaning would be my advice.

If the Public Sector's so cushy and well paid it's a miracle that it hasn't sucked all the top talent out of the Private Sector.

Yet there hora remains...

woody74 - is that job ad not pro rata?

Also - lots of people in the public sector have taken pay cuts, lost bonuses, had reduced hours etc

woody74 - Member

Remember this is a charity

So why then, give it as an example when slagging off public employees who are paid by the government ?

Woody might have chosen a poor example, but he is right. The public sector is going to experience a lot of pain. This is not schadenfreude, it's just that it is going to happen.

The Institute of Fiscal Studies today said that none of the three main parties has got even close to addressing the very real spending cuts that we are going to have to make. The Tories have identified £6bn; the lib dems around £18bn. The IFS says we need to make around £45bn in savings. It is going to have to come from somewhere, (well everywhere actually)

It was not a poor example. It was a wrong example.

Nice work if you can get it!

It does seem odd that a headteacher's PA would be paid more than most of the teachers.

if you are so jealous apply for the jobs FFS as you point out its free market, if you dont want it **** off and stop moaning would be my advice.

FuzzyWuzzy has a point.

He's the corollary to that argument. As the holder of a private pension that is invested in various funds, provided by the financial services industry, I have a vested interest and therefore a legitimate grievance with the wrongs that have been wrought in that industry and even without tax payers money being used to support that industry, I have a right to say how that industry is run and how its leaders are compensated.

You see I am ideologically promiscuous and sometimes I like to make other peoples’ arguments for them!
😉

It does seem odd that a headteacher's PA would be paid more than most of the teachers.

+1.

If it is anything like our head of department's PA (university), I imagine this kind of administrative role is much harder than you would think, and might involve a lot more responsibility than being a PA in the private sector. The difference between academia / education, and a standard PA, is that in academia, the PA is supporting someone whose focus is both on education (or research in a university), and also on the general running of the school, which in practice gets pretty much entirely done by the support staff. Whereas in a business, there is one clear focus, and the PA is basically a purely administrative person, looking after diaries, booking plane tickets etc. for someone who has the job of making the business run.

Now, if schools hired professional managers as heads, rather than teachers, then perhaps this would be different, although I'm betting they'd not be anywhere near as efficient as the combination of someone who has a clue about education in the actual leadership role, and a decent administrator.

Joe

It's not about jealousy it's about not wanting public money being wasted paying public sector roles at a higher rate than their private sector equivalents.

Firstly you have no idea what the job entails so you dont know what the equivalent is and secondly what is the principle that makes you assume a public sector job should be paid less than a private sector job?

y what is the principle that makes you assume a public sector job should be paid less than a private sector job?

How about guaranteed final salary pension schemes; extraordinarily generous redundancy terms; greater job security and better working hours.

Will that do you?

FWIW I don't think that PS jobs are worth less than private secctor. No one on this thread did. This thread was always about the point that this PS job was paying MORE than an equivalent PS job.

How about guaranteed final salary pension schemes; extraordinarily generous redundancy terms; greater job security and better working hours.

Better working hours? What do you base that on? How many parties are talking of pension reform in the public sector, is job security better given impending cuts? Or are you just making assumptions?

Firstly you have no idea what the job entails so you dont know what the equivalent is and secondly what is the principle that makes you assume a public sector job should be paid less than a private sector job?

As a very very rough rule - Private sector makes money, public sector spends money. And in my experience (running a company that deals with both sectors) it's easier to spend than make money.

Our local Council head gets paid well over £200k. In the UK's poorest county. And from a Council that's riddled with issues. "They" say they need the "best" people - I rarely see any evidence of this massive level of competence from the numerous cock ups made by every big public sector organisation.

It's a culture of job security, waste and a huge pension in many cases.

You fail in business - you close down. You fail in public sector or banking - you get a big payout. That doesn't compute.

In a business, no one is telling you what to do, you have to figure it out on your own and you have to compete in what is often a crowded and complex market place. You’ve no way of knowing whether the decisions you make are right or wrong and if you get it wrong you’re out of a job.

What a huge generalisation. The parts of the private sector i've worked in are nothing like that. Plenty of people get things wrong, and they can carry on. As grum has said there is a huge fiction about the public vs private sectors and stuff like efficiency, perfect competition etc. I used to work for Tesco and there were massive amounts of waste and so many incompetent managers it was laughable.

Better working hours? What do you base that on?

I think it's called 'overtime' although I can't be sure because I've never been paid 'overtime' ever despite sometimes putting in 20 hours a week more than my contract stated.

talking about pension reform in the public sector

Emphasis here on the word 'talking'. Talk is very cheap. Public Sector pensions are not.

Not now it isn't. Brace yourselves guys. Oh and for ****s sake make sure you've got mortgage insurance. It's not expensive and will save you life in the event you get made redundant.

 

Our local Council head gets paid well over £200k

That's a lot of money. In the open market (presumably that's how they recruited him/her?) that should get you a capable individual. What would paying less get you?

It's a culture of job security, waste and a huge pension in many cases

I can't speak for the job security or waste, but there are huge pensions for very, very few in the public sector. On average the wonderfully cushy index-linked final salary pensions which are coming under attack are around the £4k mark. Since that's based on final salary, how piss-poor were these people's wages during their working lives?

Your little diatribe is a synthesis of all the anti public sector spin that's now coming at us from all sides, and it does't compute.

Your little diatribe is a synthesis of all the anti public sector spin that's now coming at us from all sides, and it does't compute.

You know you may well be right and I would extend an olive branch now and say that a lot of the diatribe, from me and everyone else is based in part on what we see, hear and learn from the world around us and in part on miss held perceptions.

But the reality is that there is a lot of resentment of the public sector from those in the private sector just now, and you really have to ask why, because it doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong. This is a game just like any other; what is 'real' has very little to do with it, the game is structured around what people believe and you have to adapt your strategy around that.

I fear for many people in the public sector because you're going to get hit really hard in the next few years and having been there myself, I know it's not pretty. The real question is, what are you going to do when it happens? Those of us in the private sector who have already been through this pain had to get on and make the best of it. I hope that the public sector can do the same.

johnners - most of our clients are public sector. We advise on strategy for the public sector. We go right under the skin of public sectors organisations and help them have more impact - some do really well with often limited resources, others just couldn't organise a pi55 up in a brewery.

Your tone suggests that I just read a few tabloids and make assumptions - you couldn't be more wrong.

The reason for resentment of the public sector - as I said they spend money and rarely make it. And they spend OUR money. So when money is seen as wasted (I bet a £100k head of the Council could do the job just as well) then anger rises. Some of it is just naive jealousy, some of it has a point.

The fact is that too many are being paid six figure sums for jobs that just don't justify it. The jobs market is pretty limited for senior execs - if they can't survive on more sensible pay, they really need to consider a shelf stacking job at a supermarket - that's where many out of work private sector ex execs now are.

I resent the pay of COs in the public sector and I work in the public sector. Their pay is yet another manifestation of increasing inequality in terms of income and wealth in this country. The fact that people may have anecodotal evidence of incompetence and inefficiency doesn't mean the whole organisation is like that. Also with reference to this public/private dichotomy, all of my budgets get spent on private suppliers so if I face cuts it will quickly impact on the private sector incomes.

Just had confirmation of a nice contract from a well known public sector client (10 minutes ago). I love the public sector 😉 Their execs can get paid what they want...

There has always been an incessant drip of briefing against the public sector in general and it's turned into a torrent over the past couple of years. From many of the posts on this thread it's evident that it's working well. A future administration will be able to cut public sector jobs to a chorus of approval, and when the public services suffer as a result that can be spun as a consequence of the laziness and incompetence of the remaining public servants. Win-win.

I fear for many people in the public sector because you're going to get hit really hard in the next few years

Why are you assuming I'm in the public sector? I'm not, and my future job prospects are looking sketchy at best. That doesn't mean I have any misplaced envy for public servants.

The reason for resentment of the public sector - as I said they spend money and rarely make it

The whole reason for the public sector to exist is to provide public services funded from taxation. Resenting it because it takes money to do so is odd.

Just had confirmation of a nice contract from a well known public sector client

So you work for the public sector, and are being wholly funded from taxation. That puts you squarely in the firing line...

Errmmm - no. I run a company that has a few public sector clients. We have a decent number of private sector clients too. Thanks for asking.

You seem to be struggling to grasp a simple concept - people get irritated when public sector organisations appear to WASTE money on things like daft exec salaries. Of course they don't resent money being spent - that's what the public sector is there for. It has an enormous "client" base and guaranteed billions in income - somehow it often manages to waste this huge stream of revenue.

overtime in the public sector? cool I'm off to find the right form to fill in...........

Actually only ever been paid overtime in the private sector

I can oly share my experiences as a teacher. 1) MK will still have the London enhancement of salary. 2) Enen the headie of a huge school is not earning £100k +.30 It is difficult for the head teacher to take on a regular class as the have to be able to attend any "happening" in the school.HT also needs to meet any number of parents when they complain because their wee darlings history teacher has dared to suggest that a school tie is a better investment that new trainers. 😳 3) Schools, even where I teach,my email gives a clue,will not exclude because of the league tables,hence kids informing you that you are an effing c,will not be removed.

On to the public sector gravy train,I qualified 6 years ago,1 in 8 got a job.Now a lot of Councils are giving temp contracts,two years being the usual.The idea that we do few hours for a decent salary is a laugh,50 per week min,same as everybody else,and that is before I factor in rugby,DoE etc. I would imagine.Somebody posted above that once you had a years worth of notes you had it made.Not in my experience.I was a shopfitter and put through 50% more in salary in my final year at that that I will at top of scale as a teacher.Aberdeenshire recently offered every teacher over the age of 55 a lump sum to retire.So job security is no longer one of the attractions.

That said, I love the job

A future administration will be able to cut public sector jobs to a chorus of approval, and when the public services suffer as a result that can be spun as a consequence of the laziness and incompetence of the remaining public servants. Win-win.

Back to the 80's anyone? You can remember that far back can't you?

Surf-Mat, I'm just struggling to grasp how you can spout absurd generalisations like "It's a culture of job security, waste and a huge pension in many cases".

Thanks for asking.

Kettle

Black

Pot

Now I am all for people getting on in life and being paid a decent salary, but £38k would put that person into roughly the top 15% of earners in the UK. Do we really think that a PA to the head teacher of a mid sized school (or any public sector school for that matter) does a job that justifies a salary in the top 15% of UK salaries?

And don't forget to add on around 37% to this salary to get the equivalent private sector rate with parity on their pensions!

£38k is not a bad salary, but it's not great either. The 37% pension adjustment makes it very good however. If someone is absolutely outstanding in their field, I reckon this is a fair rate.

If only 15% make it to this level of income, this demonstrates what a poor country the UK actually is. Wage inequality is a massive issue when you consider the misery this causes with the cost of acquiring things like a home. I'm begining to sound like a lefty, but what is needed is some sort of balance between unashamed capitalism and the commercial naivety of the socialist ideals.

Now look at Premiership footballers. Some make £140,000 a week!. Sure, they are outstandingly talented and many argue they should get this sum as a result (I certainly don't!). There are outstanding people in all areas of work. Take a teacher who is simply jawdroppingly brilliant, who stands head an shoulders above his/her colleagues. What extra money are they going to get paid for their extraordinary ability? A couple of grand per annum?

So yeah, if a school needs a top performing PA, the money on offer is about right. However, if they take on any old PA who's just got a lot of experience, but is mediocre and/or not motivated, it's a waste of ratepayers and tax payers money.

MK will still have the London enhancement of salary

Not sure if it does to be honest, I'm in Reading and dont even get the lower London fringe addition..... You Scottish teachers get paid more as well dont you...if only I could convince the Mrs to move away from London....

I love the idea that public sector jobs just involve spending money which is easy... I get to spend exactly nothing as a classroom teacher and dont have to make any money so my job should be piss easy!!

A-A, but we have the best education system in the world,of course we get more! six years in £32,000 FWIW. I have just managed to convince my PT to get a different size of jotters for next year,such waste of the taxpayers money!