Weird, we’re told that very intelligent men have been working on this for millennia.
D’you think all the arguments have been settled?
Hold on, I'll look out of the windows.....
No, I can't see any peace on earth yet, and the cheesemakers don't seem to be any more blessed today than they were yesterday.
I can’t evidence it, but every piece of religious education I encountered within and without school growing up was presented as factual.
Well in mine too - but it was factual. Jews really do circumcise their kids and have Bar Mitzvahs. This is a fact.
Well in mine too – but it was factual. Jews really do circumcise their kids and have Bar Mitzvahs. This is a fact.
Doesn't really advance anyone's knowledge of RE though, does it? It's pretty commonly known that Jews do this so it could useful to know why, and an RE lesson would be a great place to pass that info on. If the answer is 'because God' that makes the lesson useless. And seeing as plenty on this thread will have been exposed to UK RE lessons at some point and we are still none the wiser, I think there may be something missing somewhere.
we’re told that very intelligent men have been working on this for millennia.
But they've always been and still are all stuck in a doom loop of shouting at each other - you said .....no you said ...(sounds familiar) and never get to an agreement and just go off and set up their own new religion based on some of the bits they did like (were strict enough for me) and then go and set up an even narrower version of that religion cos i want to become even more holy/adherent/strict/need a divorce - and then they'll eff off to a differenet city/country/continent sometimes on sailing boats to try and create a fenced off nirvana over there and it all just kicks off again, until some daft splinter group drinks industrial quantities of weedkiller
It's all a bit bl**dy ridiculous at some level
Weird, we’re told that very intelligent men have been working on this for millennia.
We've only given it a day or so, guessing most of us are men and surely some are intelligentish?
D’you think all the arguments have been settled?
We're getting there. Me, I'm with the fridge.
we’re told that very intelligent men have been working on this for millennia.
Imagine this thread continued for two thousand years, do you think it would get to a conclusion?
The US has a very strict separation of religion and state.
"One nation under god," that US?
I've driven around the Bible Belt, if there's a strict separation it ain't working.
Well in mine too – but it was factual. Jews really do circumcise their kids and have Bar Mitzvahs. This is a fact.
Oddly enough, I don't recall a deep-dive into ritual doctrine-based infant genital surgery cropping up in my RE lessons. It was more a feeding the five thousand with a box of Findus fish fingers and a Warbie's toastie sort of affair. It's a missed opportunity really, talking about willies would've been far more engaging to your average 14-year old.
Less flippantly: Non-Xtian religions didn't get a look-in, at all. Jesus was the king of the Jews, but Judaism itself was never mentioned as far as I remember. I grew up in an area with a way above average Muslim presence and I think(?) Jesus is held as a prophet within Islam but again, it was scantly acknowledged. Religious Education was Christian Education and delivered as a History lesson. It might as well have been Tooth Fairy Education for the value it carried.
Theology could have been an interesting topic, but droning on about CLEARLY BLINGINGLY OBVIOUSLY blatant gibberish like Moses parting the Red Sea and then using it to murder his enemies, not so much. There was not one kid in that class who wasn't thinking "well, this is nonsense of the highest order, how long till lunchtime?" Even if we accept today that it was supposed to be an allegorical tale (and spoiler: bollocks it was, this is revisionism) then what's the life lesson to be had here?
Imagine this thread continued for two thousand years, do you think it would get to a conclusion?
Not a chance - but there would be maybe 3 different main threads and multiple highly specialized threads within each of the 3 main threads. Some of those specialized threads would focus on coffee beans, while others would advocate for sourdough based diets. The third thread would be craft beer based, with a few gluten-free splinter groups differentiated by hop choice. The coffee beans would go to war with the beer drinkers over which is the best water resource for your coffee that is owned by the craft brewers
Theology could have been an interesting topic,
I'm sensing a missed vocation
Doesn’t really advance anyone’s knowledge of RE though, does it?
Oh aye. It was universally shit, but it wasn't any kind of proselytising. It could have been very useful but it wasn't - as this thread demonstrates.
“One nation under god,” that US?
Yes. The constitution mandates that there can be no official religion (unlike the UK) and there isn't. The fact that the actual people are religious is nothing to do with the government or state. A political candidate is free to share their religion and the people are free to vote for them or not depending on their view of that religion, but the state has no rules on this.
we’re told that very intelligent men have been working on this for millennia.
Imagine this thread continued for two thousand years, do you think it would get to a conclusion?
They said "very intelligent" though.
spoiler: bollocks it was, this is revisionism
Given your contempt for the subject I'm surprised you've done enough reading to assert that.
It’s no more bizarre than getting to do that because of who your ancestor is, or you’re mates with some-one who can get you appointed.
Absolutely correct. All bizarre and wrong.
I’ve driven around the Bible Belt, if there’s a strict separation it ain’t working.
That's sort of my point. In the UK kids have been to RE classes and concluded that the sky fairy is boring and irrelevant. In the US that doesn't happen so the feeble-witted are prey to indoctrination by cults (I may be over-simplifying, but you get the idea).
It’s all a bit bl**dy ridiculous at some level
If it happened today, we wouldn't stand for it.
If David Blaine walked across the Thames we'd all be going "well, it's obviously a trick." There are those today who still think the moon landings were faked despite there being multiple pieces of video footage, photos and corroborating evidence from across the globe taken within out parents' living memory. Yet an anthology of texts about a bloke mostly written several hundred years after his death two thousand years ago is sacrosanct? Do me a quaver.
Oh aye. It was universally shit, but it wasn’t any kind of proselytising. It could have been very useful but it wasn’t – as this thread demonstrates.
So, as a matter of interest, in your view what would have been the content of these "very useful" RE classes ?
Given your contempt for the subject I’m surprised you’ve done enough reading to assert that.
I'm genuinely surprised that you're surprised. Don't confuse a rejection of 'belief' with ignorance. I read plenty, and when I don't know or understand something I'll hold my hand up. Threads like this are really good for that.
So, as a matter of interest, in your view what would have been the content of these “very useful” RE classes ?
"Useful" is perhaps a poor choice of words there. Like, what use is History? I (vaguely) recall learning about the Roundheads and the Cavaliers at school. For all that some may cry "what use is long multiplication* when I have a calculator?" the usefulness of knowledge of a war in the C17 is limited to pub quizzes.
If there is a value in teaching History then there is an equal value in teaching Religion. Personally, I'd like to see it rub shoulders with Greek mythology.**
(* - I used this just yesterday.)
(* - I used this last week.)
Roundheads vs cavaliers? Johnson vs Corb and we're out of the EU. Played out in Union vs Confederacy... Lancashire cotton famine etc, and continuing with Harris v Trump... Rise of China, WW3 .
I may have abbreviated a bit but there is a thread.
Sadly we don't live in the moment, we live in history. Ask your fridge.
Imagine this thread continued for two thousand years, do you think it would get to a conclusion?
No, as we’re missing an infinite number of contributors.
Anyway…Back to Shabbat, this turned up in my Threads feed, d’you get it?
Hah. A loophole 😉
Explanation for those wondering (no one) - certain things that religious Jews aren't allowed to do on the sabbath (eg turning on AC, lights...), also aren't allowed to ask a non-Jew to do for them. If the non-Jew wants to do it for their own benefit, then everyone else can also use the results as well. Hence the solution of finding a random non-Jew and hinting something like "isn't it hot today, wouldn't you like to come into our shul (synagogue) and turn the AC on?" but not asking outright, which leads to awkward/hilarious situations unless said non-Jew is familiar with this!
Poke fun below.
I'm more than happy to be called a dick for ridiculing this. I've actually read quite extensively on many religions and I'm not seeing why I can't find something funny because it really is. If that makes me a dick, meh!
If any religious types want to take the piss out of my lack of belief, go for it. Having a fridge to comply with parts of an ancient text that has zero bearing on the modern world is equal parts funny and tragic to me.
On the RE thing I can unequivocally state that it is taught as fact in some schools. I had to have a word with my son's year two teacher when he came home and stated God placed the sun in the sky. When I tried to explain it was something some people chose to believe he called me and his mum liars. That didn't sit too well with me to be honest and I'm a live and let live kind of guy. Still find all religions pretty ****ing funny though, dick that I am. However, I'll defend anyone's right to believe whatever they like.
find all religions pretty * funny though
yeah, if it wasn't all so *ing sad how much grief they have caused in the name of god and enlightenment
Do your genuflecting and singing and stuff - just don't go to war over it. Some of the singing and stuff, architecture etc can be very lovely btw
If it wasn't religion, people would find another excuse. You don't get to be the dominant species without being a bit of a ****. Religion is sometimes used as an excuse, rarely is it the root cause.
Not fully up to date on where this thread currently is, my apologies. However at some point it caused me to think about bicycles, you know, a religion based upon riding bicycles. Basically, rather than worhshipping a god or gods, we dispense with all that and instead strive to be reach the highest state of being - pure bicycle riding - bicycle nirvana - at one with the bicycle, our minds empty of all other than this body perched upon this bicycle, riding it. THE END.
One other thought too, but unfortunately forgotten it during recollection of the bicycle religion.
Hence the solution of finding a random non-Jew and hinting something like “isn’t it hot today, wouldn’t you like to come into our shul (synagogue) and turn the AC on?”
What if it was on to start with? Is the act of turning it off not "work?" Do you wait until tomorrow to do anything if your house is on fire?
a religion based upon riding bicycles
But i was cast out because i professed my love for my downcountry bike, so i shall create a new religion where downcountry is the chosen one
What if it was on to start with? Is the act of turning it off not “work?” Do you wait until tomorrow to do anything if your house is on fire?
Off is usually the same as on.
On fire gets a bit complicated and it depends what's at risk, purely monetary loss then possibly still can't do anything directly, any chance of life in danger then do whatever is needed asap.
a religion based upon riding bicycles
Ah yes, I was thinking of our depth of knowledge on the bicycle and riding the bicycle, the seriousness (and not) with which we may sometimes discuss it. And what that looks like to an outsider... Grown men playing on bicycles in the woods, on bikes that can easily cost, for a lot of people on STW upwards of £2k.
I (vaguely) recall learning about the Roundheads and the Cavaliers at school.
Is somewhat relevant here considering the wars of the three kingdoms kicked off with a dispute about whether the divinely mandated monarch (both sides agreed on that) was in charge of both state and church or just the former. Charles thought both and a lot of people in the Church of Scotland thought just the former.
That gave us the Scottish Bishops war and after the English parliament went "not really interested in funding that thanks" some rather ill advised moves in Ireland by Charles triggered the 1641 rebellion there. Giving us two of the kingdoms in the wars of the three kingdoms.
Then finally the English civil war started due to the political disagreements in England around the repercussions of Charles losing the Bishop wars and how to deal with the Irish rebellion.
there is a difference between mainstream religion and cults.
I laughed.
What if it was on to start with? Is the act of turning it off not “work?” Do you wait until tomorrow to do anything if your house is on fire?
There are teams of scholars in funny hats working on this issue as we speak. They should have an answer in a thousand years or so.
Anyone want to join me in a theological debate about which is the purer form of cycling - track or trials - which brings one closer to nirvana - seated pedaling cycling around in pointless circles on a track, or standing with perfect control on a funny little bike hoping over obstacles, covering virtually no distance at all?
I would question why "pure" cycling has to cover no distance. Perhaps a purer form (in that it maintains cycling's origins as a mode of transport) would be marathon long distance cycling: as far as possible with as much suffering as possible and yet still retains the inherent pointlessness of doing anything but cycling.
hoping over obstacles
Faith is a wonderful thing
Anyone want to join me in a theological debate about which is the purer form of cycling
If it gets going I am ready to market a range of leg-wigs so shaven-legged roadies can wear shorts off the bike without attracting ridicule.
You don’t get many sandstorms outwith the Middle East
The biggest sandstorm ever was from Finland.
I think the purest form of cycling is commuting. Surely the original intent for the usage of the bicycle is as a simple mode of transport. Therefore the Brotherhood of the Wheel (that I have stolen from Malcolm in the middle) is the one true church of the cyclist. Something, something, god
I think the purest form of cycling is commuting
On an ebike? How about one you don't have to peddle?
Also, like fridges, I understand they have an ecco mode? Can you get some scholars on it to work out how that might make a difference?
If it gets going I am ready to market a range of leg-wigs so shaven-legged roadies can wear shorts off the bike without attracting ridicule.
Will they be made from real hair?
What about gravellistas? Neither roadie not mountain biker. Where will they fit in the Cult of Hairy-Legged Riders / Cult of Hairless-Legged Riders?
an ecco mode
Follow the shoe!
Users of pedals will be damned forever, and cast out to join the heathens and unbelievers, sayeth the Lord. Only the one true path of Drasine riding follows to the truth to righteousness
On an ebike? How about one you don’t have to peddle?
Blasphemy! Only single speed with pedal backward brakes is permitted.
Like, what use is History? I (vaguely) recall learning about the Roundheads and the Cavaliers at school. For all that some may cry “what use is long multiplication* when I have a calculator?” the usefulness of knowledge of a war in the C17 is limited to pub quizzes.
If there is a value in teaching History then there is an equal value in teaching Religion. Personally, I’d like to see it rub shoulders with Greek mythology.**
I'd suggest that we are taught the wrong history - mainly of English victories in long ago wars, interesting characters like Henry VIII, or really boring stuff about Victorian legislation. What we don't get taught is any history of our own communities - I was never taught any Welsh history - or our peer groups, the poor, common people. Obviously, if we were it may lead to some discontent about WHY we are the poor common people.
And, if we were taught history properly then we may not have to suffer dimwits trying be experts on conflicts in the Middle East which have been going on for generations but they only heard of yesterday on Snapchat. Anyway, rant over. 😀
If it happened today, we wouldn’t stand for it.
If David Blaine walked across the Thames we’d all be going “well, it’s obviously a trick.”
Do you think cynicism is a modern invention?
I’m genuinely surprised that you’re surprised. Don’t confuse a rejection of ‘belief’ with ignorance. I read plenty, and when I don’t know or understand something I’ll hold my hand up.
Hmm. I think there are still things you don't understand but perhaps don't realise that you don't understand. Humans are highly irrational and illogical. When people say 'we believe that the world was created when two gods fought and one threw stones at the other' or whatever, it may not mean that they actually literally believe that's what happened. Founding myths are important for a variety of reasons and actual literal explanation of things is not really one of them.
Last time I discussed this subject with SaxonRider he suggested that I consider the difference between belief and faith, which I found a pretty interesting concept.
So, as a matter of interest, in your view what would have been the content of these “very useful” RE classes ?
Well, it should be theology, it should discuss why people believe what they do, which seems to be the thing people are missing and the cause of much of the contempt.
Hmm. I think there are still things you don’t understand but perhaps don’t realise that you don’t understand.
Or, as a radical idea, possibly they do understand and it is you failing to do so? That you confuse your experience of RE with everyone elses suggests it might be you.
Founding myths are important for a variety of reasons and actual literal explanation of things is not really one of them.
Could you get much more condescending? You arent telling anyone here anything new although what you are doing is going in for sweeping statements. It also fails the obvious test of when exactly we should consider something allegorical vs a statement of fact. Especially given that things tend to move into allegorical only once the evidence is overwhelming. Admittedly often with a lot of bloodshed.
Well, it should be theology, it should discuss why people believe what they do
What is your definition of theology here? Since the standard one is generally Christianity based and often from the position of belief. Which isnt exactly ideal.
If you want to teach people about why people believe what they do then you would want anthropology and psychology.
This thread reminded me of childhood holidays with the great aunts in Lewis. Old croft house with open peat fire. Although she now had an electric cooker she still kept a big pot on the fire. The water out the taps was brown with visible bits of peat so we walked 1/4 mile to get drinking/cooking water from a spring. Nearest pub was Stornaway 30 miles south. Nobody spoke English except to visitors.
Sabbath! Enough peat had to be brought in from the peat stack on Saturday night for the fire on Sunday. Incidentally the fire never went out. At night it was banked. The embers covered with fresh peat close togethjer so no air got in. In the morning move the peats blow on the fire and away it went.
The sabbath was a bit flexible in that essential work was allowed. Lambing etc or if you worked in essential services.
Well, it should be theology, it should discuss why people believe what they do, which seems to be the thing people are missing and the cause of much of the contempt.
A school curriculum to explain why people don't open their fridge on Saturday? A winner, I'm sure.
