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Yea, I was surprised when I saw one in the flesh as my boss has an A3 E-tron hybrid thingy which looks the same in a photograph, but is A3 sized, the new electric E-tron looks about the size of Q7?
Personally, as someone who drives ~250mile each way commute occasionally (well, once or twice a week for 3 months then very little in-between jobs) that <250 mile range wouldn't bother me. By the time I'd stopped, used the facilities and bought a coffee it'd be 80% charged anyway. Driving 4 hours straight at motorway speeds is something I did, especially towards the end when I was getting fed up of the commute but it's not something I'd boast about or want to do regularly. I'd not want to take a reaction time test towards the end of it for sure!
Moot though, my car cost £600, not £60k, it'll be a while before I can afford the CAPEX even if the OPEX would actually make it cheaper.
Yeah they’re around Q7 size so rather big.
Poly - so you got an ID3 - how are you finding it, it's on our shortlist
Given she drives about 25-30 miles a day with probably half the time in slow moving traffic it seems like that’s a very sensible range. The question was really is it better to charge it once a week, only when it is dead, or more often (no home charger yet).
I don't honestly think it much matters to the battery beyond the best practice to avoid running it very low or charging it very high. If you've got off street parking I'd get in the habit of plugging it in every couple of days just so it's generally charged enough to go a bit further if you so choose.
Whether that's into a 3 pin plug (10a), 16a, 32a or home charge point (also 32a) is maybe then a bit of a moot point. Most of the time at least.
In theory, an SUV gives you more space to hide batteries in the floor
Yeah, this is a factor. The floors on all the cars I tried was quite high - in the back, I couldn't get my feet under the front seat - just my toes. Fortunately legroom was ample in all of them so it wasn't an issue, but if you were taller maybe.
ID4 and Enyaq seem to have traded crazy acceleration for range, they are comparible to long range teslas from a number of early tests. I should be getting an ID4 in September as my next company car. It will be a different way of thinking and defo long journey planning but different is good and I'm all for it.
Already got an ebike so well used to range anxiety!
ID4 and Enyaq seem to have traded crazy acceleration for range
I don't think the trade-off is range, because no matter how big a motor you fit you're still only using the same power at the same speed. However if you dial up the current to give crazy acceleration you'll not only degrade the battery faster but you'll also have to fit much bigger tyres and brakes etc and have to put in a lot more fancy electronics to control it. And probably two motors too for 4WD. So the tradeoff is cost. But then with money saved you could probably fit more batteries at the same price point so maybe 🙂
ID4 and Enyaq seem to have traded crazy acceleration for range
There must be some tradeoff carrying around the bigger motor, but isn't it overall the other way around? The limiting factor being how quickly can you get power out of the batteries, more batteries = more power. The exception that proves the rule being race cars where the battery doesn't have to survive many charge cycles.
Hence why Tesla offers 2 tiers, the normal range and 0-60 in 3 seconds, or long-range and 0-60 in 2 seconds because the second actual motor required to pull off that party trick isn't the expensive bit.
Having said that (and relevant to the OP) Audi say the e-tron has a 95kwh battery of which 86kwh is useable (that ~80%), Skoda say theirs has a 82kwh battery. In which case, how does it pull off the trick of longer range if, presumably, it's going to be an e-tron in a primark t-shirt? Or are they using a different basis?
traded crazy acceleration for range
Generally doesn't seem to be that much of an either/or. Up to a point EVs just do have fast acceleration, presumably because the motors they're using for all sorts of reasons do it anyway. For me, the rate of regen feels right so I wonder whether that has an impact on sizing the motors.
If those SUVs have really good real world range I assume they must have bigger batteries or have made some strides in efficiency. Or not actually be SUV tall.
Skoda say theirs has a 82kwh battery. In which case, how does it pull off the trick of longer range if, presumably, it’s going to be an e-tron in a primark t-shirt?
Isn't it a smaller car?
I just plug mine in to the mains overnight so it's often fully charged and I get no warnings about 80%. Had it a year and there's been no drop in range and it's back up to 150ish since the weather warmed up a bit. BMW i3s btw, it's ace.
I've had my ID3 for a week, its great and the 80% charge is sufficient for 95% of usage including my 140 mile round trip commute.
On the days I go beyond the range of the vehicle in one go it will get 100% charge.
That was my interpretation of how to use. If I was doing close to the 100% range every day I would be looking for destination charging to top up anyway.
Great cars though despite the software teething issues, my daily commute was £17 a day in diesel and now its 1/10th of that or less if I get enough solar into the car 🙂
Isn’t it a smaller car?
I fell for that trick when I saw the e-tron (I don't know, just assumed VAG would be trying to get one platform to market first before investing in another one)
Transporting it [hydrogen] is no harder than propane which we do already.
Sorry, missed this little gem from the last page
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Did you sleep through GCSE chemisty?
It's such an absolute faff to transport that refineries would rather use it as fuel. They usually have one small storage facility that holds enough of the excess they produce to do a black-start of the hydrotreater/hydrocracker, the rest just goes into the fuel gas system.
It will be a different way of thinking and defo long journey planning but different is good and I’m all for it.
The need to plan journeys is getting less and less all the time. We started using an EV as our main car in 2017; journeys are a lot easier now than they were only a few years ago. There are so many more chargers, new ones are being installed all the time, and our second car charges faster than the first so stopping to recharge is less of a bother. Gridserve have just started a program to massively improve the number and speed of chargers at motorway services, and they're popping up at supermarkets, pubs and other places all over the place.
A couple of weeks ago there was an article where they were installing something like 25 chargers at a services on the M1 (some low junction number I forget) and whilst searching for a link for it I found out about a new EV filling station in Essex:
https://www.gridserve.com/2020/12/06/gridserve-opens-uks-first-electric-forecourt/
Sorry, missed this little gem from the last page
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Did you sleep through GCSE chemisty?
It’s such an absolute faff to transport that refineries would rather use it as fuel. They usually have one small storage facility that holds enough of the excess they produce to do a black-start of the hydrotreater/hydrocracker, the rest just goes into the fuel gas system.
Look at California, thanks to government grants they have a huge number of hydrogen filling stations now and it's increasing every year, it's not beyond the wit of man to work on making it easier as time goes on. It's attitudes like that which kept us using coal fired power plants 50 years after we should have stopped because "nuclear is too hard". Musk is putting a man on Mars soon, I'm sure with some investment we can make moving a gas around a bit easier.
Poly – so you got an ID3 – how are you finding it, it’s on our shortlist
its fine, its a lot of "space age" weird design. I think if you have a wide choice you might want to take one for a spin and see how you get on with the dashboard / computer thing... everything is done through it and as I don't drive it every day I certainly don't find it intuitive.
Look at California, thanks to government grants they have a huge number of hydrogen filling stations now and it’s increasing every year, it’s not beyond the wit of man to work on making it easier as time goes on. It’s attitudes like that which kept us using coal fired power plants 50 years after we should have stopped because “nuclear is too hard”.
Yeah no, doesn't work like that.
Nearly 40m people in California.
655,000 EVs
22,000 public charging points
43 hydrogen filling stations.
One major factor in this is that most places already have electricity, and the ability to add more capacity is very well understood and cheap to do.
How are the early adopters finding the motorway service station recharge experience? Is waiting for a charger a thing yet? I guess the last year with reduced traffic might not be the best time to judge.
But given most folk who bother to stop at a motorway service station have got a reasonable journey still ahead of them I guess when us luddites join the party way more than 50% of parking places at one will need to be a charging station.
Look at California, thanks to government grants they have a huge number of hydrogen filling stations now and it’s increasing every year, it’s not beyond the wit of man to work on making it easier as time goes on.
It's not that hydrogen infrastructure can't be done, it's that it will always be a PITA.
Really liking the look of the Hyundi Ioniq 5 (never thought I'd say that as a car fan!). Cool looks (hate the front of teslas) v fast charging (800v tech), decent performance, roomy for big teenagers in the back. Wonder how much the lease deals will be when it comes to UK later in the year.
Do not kid yourselves - electric cars are no more sustainable than ICE ones. Its greenwash
Reduce!
Reuse
recycle
How are the early adopters finding the motorway service station recharge experience?
I don't really rely on them because Ecotricity have had a (government grant funded) monopoly on them for a decade and not invested in it much since. At least now Gridserve have taken a stake and will be replacing old units and expanding much more in the coming year or so which is badly needed. New sites like Rugby M6 have a dozen units for all, plus a dozen more for Teslas. Some sites now have Ionity (expensive though), or BP/Shell units going in on the petrol forecourt.
Lots of just-off-motorway hubs springing up though, I tend to stop at Milton Keynes Parkway (8 Polar rapid chargers, plus some Ionity ones) or Banbury (8 Instavolt chargers).
It’s not that hydrogen infrastructure can’t be done, it’s that it will always be a PITA.
In the same way that electric cars will always be a massive pain in the arse yes. Pick a worse fuel than petrol and get used to it. Petrol is as convenient as you can get, and neither of the alternatives are good substitutions but we will be forced into one of them for a while before personal use vehicles are taken away from the masses completely.
In the same way that electric cars will always be a massive pain in the arse yes
Well no, because they are not the same. For one thing, I don't think many people have a hydrogen tank on their driveway.
Do not kid yourselves – electric cars are no more sustainable than ICE ones. Its greenwash
Nah, it's a positive step. And I know what you'll say so no need to type it out again.
In the same way that electric cars will always be a massive pain in the arse yes.
No they aren't. Plenty of happy users even on this very thread. So no. Having to stop every few hours on your long trip isn't really a massive pain in the arse.
FunkyDunc
ie a trip to the lakes might not be possible, not without an 1hr long stop in between etc, and then no where to charge when you get there
Funnily enough I'm currently sat at the rapid charger in Ambleside, just given it 20mins to give me enough to drive to Patterdale tomorrow, pick up a bike in Kendal and then comfortably get home (Bingley).
Look at California, thanks to government grants they have a huge number of hydrogen filling stations now and it’s increasing every year, it’s not beyond the wit of man to work on making it easier as time goes on. It’s attitudes like that which kept us using coal fired power plants 50 years after we should have stopped because “nuclear is too hard”. Musk is putting a man on Mars soon, I’m sure with some investment we can make moving a gas around a bit easier.
Go on then, why despite a worldwide surplus of hydrogen, do we not use it for cars?
Every refinery I've ever worked on has produced a surplus of it. And refinery margins are tight, really tight. If there was a way of monetizing hydrogen they'd do it. We're now in the process of running plants on hydro electric power because products are valuable and burning them doesn't make sense. But hydrogen.......
As soon as you (very inefficiently because it's such low density and won't liquefy under economical conditions) try and put it in a pipe, it's trying to get it out. It works it's way out of flanges because they can never be that tight, it makes metals brittle because it can get inbetween the individual crystals in their structure, it'll even seep out through the metal itself.
By all means, just tell me to pull my finger out. If it worked and the Hydrogen economy took off I'd be a trillionaire 🤣
In the same way that electric cars will always be a massive pain in the arse yes.
Mine is needing charged. I’ll put it on the free charger on my way home and then walk home. The wife will walk and collect it when she sets off for work, another 170 miles that will see us until Sunday unless we go somewhere at the weekend.
@molgrips if that service station story is right then Keith (small town, north east Scotland) is a real trail blazer because the petrol station there has included a fast charger for the last couple of years!
I just plug mine in to the mains overnight so it’s often fully charged and I get no warnings about 80%. Had it a year and there’s been no drop in range and it’s back up to 150ish since the weather warmed up a bit. BMW i3s btw, it’s ace.
I do too, BMW have decided that you can charge to 100% all the time, because it’s not really 100% of the battery, they have built in a buffer/over sized battery. Other manufacturers have chosen to do it differently and allow you the option.
To me it makes sense to get in the habit of plugging it in as soon as I get home, it charges overnight off peak unless I need it sooner. It’s much less hassle than filling up with diesel after a nightshift.
'In the same way that electric cars will always be a massive pain in the arse yes'
As a long term user I can vouch that's just bosh. Easiest car I've ever owned, and mine is primitive with rubbish range. Charge at home, don't pay for petrol, and super reliable, easy to drive. Apart from range ICE cars are rubbish on most every practical measure
Mine is needing charged. I’ll put it on the free charger on my way home and then walk home. The wife will walk and collect it when she sets off for work, another 170 miles that will see us until Sunday unless we go somewhere at the weekend.
Is that out of choice (because it's free) to charge not at home or don't you have the facility there? I'm guessing free charging will cease to be a thing once it becomes a more significant proportion of the car pool.
Is that out of choice (because it’s free) to charge not at home or don’t you have the facility there? I’m guessing free charging will cease to be a thing once it becomes a more significant proportion of the car pool.
Yeah it’s a choice to charge free or pay to charge at home. It was supposed to end last month but typically the council are rubbish so it’s still free, it’s also 7x faster
Well I’m lying in bed post nights meanwhile my car is ‘refuelling’ ready for my wife to collect.
Apart from range ICE cars are rubbish on most every practical measure
Yeah, whilst everyone worries about battery longevity they don't seem at all bothered by flywheels, transmissions, injectors, turbos, EGR valves, coil packs, spark plugs, valve stems, HT leads, and all the rest of the crap that goes wrong with IC cars whilst they spew pollution over pedestrians and other road users.
molgrips
Yeah, whilst everyone worries about battery longevity they don’t seem at all bothered by flywheels, transmissions, injectors, turbos, EGR valves, coil packs, spark plugs, valve stems, HT leads, and all the rest of the crap that goes wrong with IC cars whilst they spew pollution over pedestrians and other road users.
I would think most ICE cars make it to ten years old without replacing any of those except spark plugs as per service schedule. Clutch maybe.
Whereas there is a very real possibility that the range of a BEV could be cut by 30% or so over that same period (e.g. Nissan estimate a Leaf loses 20% over 5 years), and that could be a genuine issue because the range is relatively low to start with and is affected fairly significantly by the weather. I know it affects resale as well having looked into buying a Leaf and seeing a lot of talk about how many 'bars' it has left on the health graph.
If those SUVs have really good real world range I assume they must have bigger batteries or have made some strides in efficiency. Or not actually be SUV tall.
This is coming from my Mate who works in Skoda, but, well sells them so pinch of salt.
In most cases this generation of EVs are going to be SUV 'shape', but even by 2021 standards of what we think of SUVs, they're not really. They're not raised for ground clearance or even to give a better view, the floor is, give or take, the same height off the ground as a saloon or hatchback would be.
What they are is tall, like the original A Class actually, which I'm sure no one is unaware of, so batteries can be stored under the floor, they do also have an SUV raised roof line, which again is a good practical thing, more headroom, allows more upright seating, which means you can have the same interior space of say an Passat in a car that's about the length of a Golf.
The height doesn't have to have detrimental effect on efficiency, for example the new Skoda Enyaq has a Cd of 0.257, compared to my much lower Superb with 0.275.
Word is the next generation of EVs will look different again, they're still broadly made in the same shape as ICE cars, frontal impact protection aside they don't really need a bonnet area as such, not such a large one anyway, they just use them to ease our transition.
Do not kid yourselves – electric cars are no more sustainable than ICE ones. Its greenwash
Reduce!
Reuse
recycle
Sorry, that's not true.
In 2010 when the first real mass produced EVs like the Tesla S and Mitsubishi i-MiEV arrived and when we were comparing pretty much brand new technology to 120 year old technology that have been continually refined and improved, you could argue that all EVS did was move the pollution from the exhaust pipe to a more tax efficient place, a power station. This is certainly true of hydrogen cars (at the moment).
10 years later, and considering the whole life of ICE cars, and the whole life of EVs, including the fuel costs (in environmental terms) and consumables, Polestar calculate EVs are around 14% more sustainable than ICE cars, you might argue that's not a lot, but the rate of progress is much, much higher. if/when Solid state batteries arrive and energy production becomes more and more sustainable, that figure will only improve.
I really take your point about Reduce reuse recycle, it's would be far more sustainable for someone to keep their current ICE car, maintain it well and then recycle it at 200k miles or more rather than all rush to trade them new for shiny new Evs, but human nature being what it is, people will want new stuff and yes if the trend continues then ICE cars will lose value and be scraped sooner than they would otherwise, but the upside of that if more early adopters means quicker progress.
The 'game' could be changing again soon, they're proposing to build one of the worlds first large scale fusion reactors in the UK, whilst it all sounds very science fiction, and frankly a recipe for disaster if it all goes wrong, pretty much unlimited, carbon free energy, that's more than a game changer.
Ironically it might save the ICE and Hydrogen car, because if energy production is no longer a concern, then Hydrogen and 'eFuel' production suddenly become practical.
It's all really fascinating stuff to me, a very non-scientific Muggle.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56843149
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-57064305
Sorry, that’s not true.
Well, it's true in the sense that people who buy EVs should not think that they're OK to use willy-nilly. "Oh, I'll just nip to the shops in the car (rather than walk) because it's electric so there's no shame." I know that sounds daft but I have found myself thinking that at times too.
Even if an EV is 50% more economical than petrol in terms of carbon/journey, it's still 50% as polluting as petrol. The answer is use cars less, use public transport systems more, be realistic about how far we need to go.
So TJ is kind of right. EVs are not the solution to climate change. But they are a little bit better and that's still a good thing.
Even if an EV is 50% more economical than petrol in terms of carbon/journey, it’s still 50% as polluting as petrol.
Also any NOx and particulate emissions from the generation of the electricity used to charge EVs are not being released at street level for people to breathe as happens from ICE cars- especially when they are cold which on the morning school run I suspect is most of the time.
The height doesn’t have to have detrimental effect on efficiency, for example the new Skoda Enyaq has a Cd of 0.257, compared to my much lower Superb with 0.275.
Cd is only part of drag - area (and therefore height) is also important.
(p looking character is mass density, u is mass velocity)
The drag force is proportional to the Cd, the area, the density and the square of the speed - so slowing down is more important than having a low Cd.
How much difference would motorway speed have on EV range, say between 60 & 80.
How much difference would motorway speed have on EV range, say between 60 & 80.
Over 60 has a noticeable effect but cruise control sitting at a steady speed helps with the range, I have no idea about 70 officer. A friend says it again reduces the range. So, a bit like an ICE car.
Sorry, that’s not true.
TJ doesn’t like cars.
I heard he even owns one now. Hypocrite 😛
Bit of a thread hijack here but there seems to be lots of real world experience reading this thread!
Are any of the EV owners on here charging their cars at home whilst parked on the public street instead of a private driveway?
We live in an end terraced house and can usually park outside our front door. If we go electric then I’d like to put a charger in the front porch (where the mains fuse box is) so I can charge with a cable running over the pavement.
Issues: parking; we’re on very good terms with our neighbours but it’s not ‘our’ space so there is no guarantee we can park there every day.
Cable over the pavement: with a high vis protector would that be ok? I can’t find much guidance from my local council about it. General internet wisdom suggests liability shouldn’t be a big issue.
People messing with the cable: is that an issue do people think?
Cheers for any thoughts on this.