[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Every part of the EU has a democratic mandate

Who voted for Nigel Farage and Dan Hannan then?

And your point is what ninfan? Still find it ridiculous that UKIP used to have so much democratic support, yet little to no representation in the UK parliament.

Ditto the Greens.

That's a huge advantage our system has. Nutters like UKIP and the Greens are kept out of power.

If you don’t know how an mep is elected and as above .. bah it’s not worth it.
At work we have open vacancies for Spanish and German speakers in tech support 1 applicant in6 months who was not suitable - before Brexit we would have typically 6 per post every couple of months - it’s well payed with training why can we not fill those vacancies?

Far be it from me to appear to support jamba, but calling the EU "democratic" is as much a stretch as saying that the referendum was a sacred act that must be respected.  Here is an example of the benefits of this "democracy" - the usual suspects feathering their own nests. Recall that Verhofstadt was the whining hypocrite who lambasted Tsipras in the European parliament...

https://www.thepressproject.gr/details_en.php?aid=62406

it’s well payed

Maybe in your opinion, but the fact that you can't fill the vacancies suggests that the market thinks otherwise. In fact you could argue that its perfect proof that EU migrants with English speaking skills were repressing wages for native workers with Spanish and German speaking skills

Given the quality of foreign language education in UK schools I suspect that finishthat’s problem is one that no amount of pay could fix.

but calling the EU “democratic” is as much a stretch

self serving unelected bureaucracy

I know the RW press constantly told us they were undemocratic but its just a lie. Yes there is room for criticism, as there is with any democratic method, but it is still elected and democratic.

For example no one in our cabinet is elected to the position they hold so are they unelected bureaucrats ? Do you not find it interesting that this charge is never levvied against them /us?

That Chinese duck saying looks like a transition of the British saying “a horse designed by committee is a camel”.

Trust a Brexy to go to China when there’s a perfectly good UK equivalent.  😜

"Native workers"

> sigh <

Let's not forget all the UK workers with German speaking skills building themselves great careers over on the continent.

DrJ: regardless, every tier of the EU governance structure is more democratically selected than both the HoL and the HoS in the UK. If democratic reform is the reason for voting leave, there are somewhat larger problems a lot closer to home.

Let’s not forget all the UK workers with German speaking skills building themselves great careers over on the continent.

Yes, isn't it a shame that they were forced to move abroad because their skills were so undervalued here?

"Forced" ?!?

Oh ye of tiny mind and narrow horizons.
(Or is it the other way around?)

Those who choose to extend their language skills are often interested in, and open to, living and working in other countries.

@zokes - totally agree. In fact one might say there is a symmetry: Greece/EU and NE England/Westminster.

When I say well payed I mean it and we have been employing on the same basis for 15 years with a regular healthy turnover. We have folks from all over the world working here

It’s not “the market” it’s Brexit
Too much uncertainty and likely negative outcome .

Is this one of those great deal with China we keep hearing about ... ?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/11/british-farmer-moves-fruit-growing-to-china-over-brexit-uncertainty

Greens have plenty of representation in Scotland. funnily enough despite a  pr threshold of around 5% no UKIP - I wonder why that is.  PR systems at all levels bar Westminster

PR systems can and do work.  FPTP gives unrepresentative governments

When I say well payed I mean it and we have been employing on the same basis for 15 years with a regular healthy turnover.

So, what you're saying is that for the last 15 years its been cheaper to employ foreigners than train British people up to do the job or pay enough to attract local bilinguals and polyglots?

It’s not just language skills it’s a combination of IT and language something that is very difficult to find if you don’t pay enough - we know the market we operate globally,
There is a reason why folks are reticent to move here for work- we do actually ask them why , this is not some internet bull it’s the real world.

@TJ

Greens have plenty of representation in Scotland. funnily enough despite a  pr threshold of around 5% no UKIP

Thats not true is it? UKIP polled over 10% in the Scottish Euro elections and returned a UKIP MEP

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Coburn_(politician)

We have attracted local language skills it’s not cheaper it’s simply not a common enough skill here .
I am a bilingual dual national and joined years ago , due to English being international the uk language skills are very poor it’s always been a problem and always will.
We have benefitted from EU folks coming here to work often improving their English language skills and settling here .
We are hiring 200 or so in Ireland- near Dublin - there the problem is the cost of living - that’s a market thing .

You rightly identify cost of living s a factor- thats the point isn't it, you got to set up somewhere cheap and then complain that theres no local skills base.

You could have spent 15 years investing in skills locally, working in partnership with local schools and colleges to develop language skills, training local people and retaining them, building your and integrating yourself as part of your local community - instead you decided that it was cheaper to buy in the skills from abroad.

I was ignoring the Euro elections.  UKIP came 6th but got a seat.  first sand only time they will ever get any representation due to a one off set of circumstances.  UKIP haven't got a single MSP, or counsellor

You could have spent 15 years investing in skills locally, working in partnership with local schools and colleges to develop language skills, training local people and retaining them, building your and integrating yourself as part of your local community

At the same time as running the actual business?  Where's the time for that going to come from?

That's the kind of thing that big companies should be doing - small ones don't have the time and money even if it might pay off in 15 years' time.

Ninfan - ignorant or trolling ?

Name me any company that does that and specifically language skills .
I would agree that other skills are open to that approach but basically these days that’s been killed by the Destruction of education by the Tories - witness what’s happened/hsppening in FE and don’t dare look at apprenticeships .

We've definitely seen a drop off in non UK EU applicants  for our positions over the last year, can't say it's specifically brexshit related, as much as the weak £. Tho some of best & brightest  colleagues who've left UK to return home to other EU countries have all mentioned Brexit as a reason.

Im surprised to see THM quoting gossip from the Brexit Bugle about Barnier's stance upsetting EU27, article quotes 3rd hound accounts - 'whitehall sources' (aka increasingly desperate brexiters ) saying EU sources don't agree with Barnier.

Amusing to read folk who want to ignore the result iof a democratic process (including a referendum and votes cast by our representatives) discussing relative democracy.

Is the gramaphone stuck again. Give it a bang

THM - that referendum was a long time ago now.  The world has changed since then.

[img] [/img]

<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 16px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;">Amusing to read folk who want to ignore the result iof a democratic process (including a referendum and votes cast by our representatives) discussing relative democracy.</span>

almost as funny as an avowed democrat thinking that once a descision has been made that’s it set in stone forever despite it being a second referendum and not seeing any contradiction...

im always astounded that someone who could see so easily through the SNP book of dreams is so myopic when it comes to the Brexit Plans...

now if it was only “wee eck” or “nippy nicky” it would be so so different...

but hey, you just go right ahead and laugh.

@finnish I know a number of native Spanish speakers working in Brighton in games design/development. I imagine with 25% youth unemployment in Spain you are not offering enough money. One of my major issues with the UK as an EU member is that taxpayers are subsidising low wages. Now the UK won’t be doing that you’ll have to pay a proper market rate. The EU has depressed wages and you are making that point loud and clear.

On a related note we met a Dutch couple whilst waiting for our 3 hour delayed Eurotunnel crossing on Saturday, the wife worked at a UK University as it was a world leader in her field and whilst dissapointed in Brexit would be staying as it was a world leading university and alternatives where in US which was very difficuot to get a visa for. She also acknowledged that EU was hugely unpopular in Holland .... her husband was still hoping we’d call fhe whole thing off because it was too difficult/expensive -I pointed out that the “exit bill” was really the hidden cost of being a member, pension deficits, hidden loan guarantees etc etc  🙂

The stats on healthcare workers do not lie.  2 years ago we had more than a thousand new EU nurses coming to the UK every month.  Now we have a net loss of 800.

Jamba - how does being an eu member subsidise low wages and how will this be stopped by leaving?

2 years ago we had more than a thousand new EU nurses coming to the UK every month

There are only 21,237 EU national nurses and health visitors in the NHS (of which 4580 are Irish), so 1000 new nurses a month is either a made up figure, or their staff turnover and retention made them barely worth recruiting.

Jamba - way off the mark - no jobs that even come close to attracting any benefits,
apart from child benefit .

Lets say 35k for the sake of argument - is that really way off the market rate? Should we be ignoring the agencies and such ?

Spain - we did have some Spanish who worked for us for around 5 years , now moved on to other opportunities in the UK.

yes ninfan - we did this before.  its nurses on the nmc register.  1000 net extra registrations a month was the figure now its minus 800.  The figures are from the NMC.  Its the true figure.  NHS only employs directly around half of all nurses in the UK

Your numbers are for NH england. mine is for total registered nurses in the UK

Its the same story for doctors.  EU recruitment has dried up

finishthat

Subscriber

Jamba – way off the mark – no jobs that even come close to attracting any benefits,

apart from child benefit .

Don't worry if the facts don't match his narrative he will just change them for you. With clear evidence that brexit uncertainty is causing people to leave or not arrive in the first place one of the brexit dreams is being achieved. Problem is the reality of unfilled specialiat roles and staff shortages is hitting.

My aunt is in charge of nursing at a nursing home… they employ nurses to do the nursing. Have I made that simple enough for you Ninfan?

As for "not paying enough" to attract rEU workers… money is far from the only issue… April Fools Day 2019 is just around the corner for anyone planning where they will work/live in the immediate future. Thinking of working in the UK? Making that move before anyone knows what that day will bring would seem foolish to many.

The EU has depressed wages and you are making that point loud and clear.

In many industries, a highly mobile workforce means you have to pay more to retain key staff. If an employer needs to offer wages that are competitive across a large international market, they will end up paying more, not less. Of course the variation between industries (and the availability of staff in it) are just as important as variations between EU member states… nations are not homogenous market places for employment, they have many different market places for jobs, where such glib statements about wages in the main do not hold true.

One of my major issues with the UK as an EU member is that taxpayers are subsidising low wages. Now the UK won’t be doing that you’ll have to pay a proper market rate.

What?  We won't be subsidising low wages with in-work benefits?  Where did you hear that?  What the hell has that got to do with the EU?  That's a UK issue has been for ages.

She also acknowledged that EU was hugely unpopular in Holland

Eh.  The UK government is hugely unpopular with me, but I'm not going to secede am I?  Quitting isn't the solution.

MH - be fair, it was a lot, lot easier to see through the lunacy of the book of dreams. But yS set the template of dishonest populism that the Brexshiteers were able to build on more successfully. Same nonsense, different context. But the big difference when put to the democratic choice, one side lost, one side won. I respect the result of both votes unlike those who respect neither.

Ninfan - TJ is correct the stats on the NHS and the impact on Brexit don’t lie. Only those who chose to abuse them do.

THM - you mean abuse like:

we had more than a thousand new EU nurses coming to the UK every month

 its nurses on the nmc register.  1000 net extra registrations a month

Spot the crucial difference...

As the NMC state:

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EU trained nurses and midwives joining the register

The number of EU trained nurses and midwives joining the register for the first time (Initial Registrations) has dropped steeply since July 2016.

There may be a number of factors influencing this including:

• The introduction of new language controls for EU trained nurses and midwives*
• the impact of Brexit
• changes to where organisations are choosing to recruit nurses and midwives from. For example, anecdotally, we are aware that some employers are choosing to recruit from countries outside the EU.

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*Mutual Recognition of Professional Qualifications (MRPQ) language controls came into force in January 2016. Any applicants who had started the application process had until July 2016 to complete under the old process before their cases were migrated to the new one.

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