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He seems to see the European project as some kind of end game in politics
I most difinitely don't and you need to quote me rather than invent stuff. In fact you need to quote everbody because I'm not the only one you're putting words in the mouth of, Inkster.
All a product of the Enlightenment
Nope, Jepherson and his mates staked out USA on the basis of what they'd studies in Europe as part of the enlightenment. Middle East and African boundaries are the result of squabbling between the various colonial powers rather than any intellectual exercise.
Couger-
If reason had a map it would be the map of Africa, the map of Europe is a map of human Impulses and human histories, not a map created by Reason. Reason cuts things up into bite sized pieces, there is nothing reasonable about the map of Europe.
Educator suggests I work on making the gap between Language and reality invisibly small, that my message isn't clear. The only way I can think of doing that is to put a blindfold on.
Reason is an ideology as much as any other ideology, it can fly in the face of human nature and what it is to be human. To be reasonable is not to be ideological, reasonable entertains the notion of doubt, acknowledging that reason and reality (human nature and nature itself) are intertwined, co conspirators.
Back on edukators' theme of the gap between language and reality I'll return to the map of Africa. By and large, in Europe we find people speak Spanish in Spain, French in France, German in Germany etc etc. That sounds to me to be pretty reasonable, relatively organic, natural even. When I look at the map of Africa, the correlation between language and national borders seems somewhat unreasonable, whilst Africa has about 1500 spoken languages, there's about 15-20 major languages across a continent of 55 countries. As I've posited, I see the map of Africa as a map designed by the forces of reason, to me a reasonable map of that continent would correlate more closely to which language was spoken where. Such a map would close the gap between language and reality.
I guess I'm putting the Cult of Reason in the dock, not to be judged by 12 angry men, just one sceptical one.
The relative stability we find in Europe is actually a product of human behaviours that have existed throughout history as much as they are a product of reason.
No, it's largely as a result of the formation of the EU. If we'd followed the historical pattern we'd still be beating the shit out of each other. That's kind of the point.
Yet we expect the Africans to grow up and act more rationally.
Really? I don't. I wish we could help them solve their problems, many of which were created by Englishmen with rulers.
Similarly your point regarding Corbyn and his failure to get elected. I totally expected Labour to get creamed, as did a lot of the others who've posted on this thread, because Corbyn had already demonstrated he could fail against a pitiful opponent. No charisma, anyone who doesn't understand the value of that in politics is doomed to failure, and I think pretty much everyone posting on this thread recognises the failure of the remain campaign (if you can call it that) and the various reasons for it.
Your comments regarding the validity of the religious mindset versus the scientific approach I'm afraid I don't really know where to start with.
Most of your points have been covered in this thread at length. I'm not sure what's prompted you to chip in at this stage? Sadly it's now all moot. They won. I just wish they'd get over it.
There is no reason in the lines on the map in africa. Purely arbitrary as it is what suited colonialists. Tribes were split, obvious geographical features where ignored. It breaks your case not makes it
He also posits that religion can be seen as more rational than reason,
Science flies people to the moon, religion flies people into buildings.
You sound like Major Charles Emerson Winchester.
Reason is an ideology as much as any other ideology, it can fly in the face of human nature and what it is to be human. To be reasonable is not to be ideological, reasonable entertains the notion of doubt, acknowledging that reason and reality (human nature and nature itself) are intertwined, co conspirators.
Hence it was called the Enlightenment - murder and rape are a natural human condition as well. Doesn’t mean we should advocating against reason and suggesting we should pick up the nearest drums and start sacrificing slaves to the god of Ra.
I thought this thread couldn't get any worse.
. All imposed (designed) by European powers beholden to the age of reason
It was reason that eventually undermined racialism.
As others stated, Europeans were beholden to colonialism - and their arrogance was probably more derived from Christianity than lessons from the Enlightenment.
Slowoldman
I get what your saying, the EU being part of a process demonstrating the futility of an obsession with national borders.
Bit like the Soviet Union then. That worked out well didn't it.
The borders in those debatable lands you talk about came about through conflict and resolution. Borders are important to some people and not to others. The smaller a country the easier it is to manage, the larger the country the more there is the opportunity for discord, that can only be managed via more authoritarian means,- China, Soviet Union, modern day Russia as well when you look at the Caucasses. USA different, that's why it remains a confederation of partly autonomous states. Yugoslavia banished differences but needed an authoritarian state to manage it self, when it collapsed there was chaos for a few years then it settled down into individual states, it's all pretty random and unpredictable in the medium and long term.
I mentioned the belief of many that Europe was heading towards a super state, many on here said that's nonsense, propaganda from the right wing media etc. How does that sit with your perspective regarding the futility of Nation States?
For some people localism is important. That's why I called out the false equivalence some were making between local elections and EU elections. Localism isn't the same as Nationalism by the way, it's about accountability, feeling engaged, having some sort of agency etc. The re establishment of mayorships in the UK is an example of localism. The EU project (I know you all hate that phrase) runs counter to the idea of localism.
You have to love reason behind The Gambia’s borders. Go Team GB!
the correlation between language and national borders seems somewhat unreasonable
Around here every mountain valley had its own dialect in the 19th century and the main ones persist to this day. People speak French, Basque, Occitan and Spanish within 70km of where I live. The linguistic boundaries bear little relation to the onlyline on the map which is between France and Spain, and thatfollows the mountain high points rather than any enlightened imposed grid.
Raybanwomble-
You think colonialism no longer exists? I guarantee there are many Africans who would disagree with you there and they very much see the EU as a colonial power still
The EU project (I know you all hate that phrase) runs counter to the idea of localism.
I for one don't hate the term "EU project".
The project most certainly doesn't not exclude localism and provides funding to encourage it.
Linguistically, culturally, through protection of regional products, through investment in local patrimoine. The project set out to be a union and it's just that, a union not a super state.
Edukator-
I did say there are over 1500 African languages but maybe 15-20 major ones. (And numerous dialects beyond these)
Theres a far far correlation between language spoken and national borders in Europe than Africa.
I recognise you are the one here who most embraces the idea of the EU project.
You think colonialism no longer exists? I guarantee there are many Africans who would disagree with you there and they very much see the EU as a colonial power still
I don’t disagree with this but, but that has nothing to do with rationalism.
Eddiebaby-
Yep..... one big flood and your Waterworld .
Raybanwomble-
I'm sure most of the astronauts who flew to the mood believed in God and they managed to avoid hitting any buildings on their way there.
And some of them believed in God even more once they'd come back.
The Enlightenment gave us eugenics (as well as some good s**t)
The re establishment of mayorships in the UK is an example of localism. The EU project (I know you all hate that phrase) runs counter to the idea of localism.
Gonna call bobbins on that
EU regional development fund & investment bank and cultural projects & has filled in many times when the national government isn't interested
7 stanes was part funded by the eu
I'm also confused how the EU is somehow anti mayor !?!
So you claim 15- 20 major languages in Africa which is quite big. The EU has 24 offical languages and well over 100 spoken languages. French, German and English (through I suspect that'll have to be renamed Amirish) are the procedural languages (so stop maonaing about me using them till next Decemeber). Spain has large numbers speaking Basque and Catalan; Switzerland 4 offical languages; Belgium 3 of which one spills over from the Low Countries which in turn is close enough to German for me to understand a lot of what's said (like Danish).
And then there's Amirish, which a lot of people speak quite well, in the same way as a lot of Africans speak French, because it's handy when you have 24 languages to have one that a lot of people speak, especially as a lot of other people around the world speak it too. Normally it all works fine though I've found people unwilling to speak Spanish in parts of Spain and refusing point blank to speak French is one village in Belgium.
Kimbers-
Don't be silly, I'm not for a minute saying the EU is anti mayor.
As to your point about EU development fund I'm not denying what you say and further to that we know many of the areas who received the most funding voted overwhelmingly for brexit.
So they're either stupid or they took other factors into consideration. Wage supression? housing? Maybe they didn't see that money going into their pocket? As well as other more nasty reasons I'll concede.
Look at the map mate, straight lines versus crinkly ones. Simples.
Africa and ME have had their borders imposed upon them. Simples.
Ignoring ethnic, tribal and cultural differences. Simples.
Africa very much sees EU as a colonial force. Simples.
Rwanda, genocide orchestrated by EU member states. Simples.
S**t kicking off in CA Republic. Simples.
Friend just sent a link to story titled 'The silent war, how Britain and Europe support slavery and sex abuse in Libiya.'
Won't post it here because you'd probably have to check the Intel on that one first wouldn't you?
And before you say whats this got to do with your humanist EU project remember this bit of the thread is about how 'rational European States imposed artificial borders in another continent. Blame colonialism not rationalism if you like, or reflect that maybe it's rationalism for us and colonialism for them still. What's good for the goose is definitely not good for the gander in this instance.
You could also look at how your beloved France controls the finances / banking in West and Central Africa as well. Literally controlling the purse strings.
Keep rational buddy,.
I’m sure most of the astronauts who flew to the mood believed in God and they managed to avoid hitting any buildings on their way there.
And some of them believed in God even more once they’d come back.
The Enlightenment gave us eugenics (as well as some good s**t)
It was the scientists who got us to the moon, the astronauts were jumped up pilots.
And on eugenics.....not so much to do with rationalism and much more to do with prejudice with some religious excuse making thrown in....
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4001825/
Oops
The big difference is that science also recognises when it’s wrong. Religion and prejudice quite often doesn’t.
Raybanwomble-
Picking up on your earlier point. If you think reason alone can solve any problem then I think in that case you can call it an ideology.
The world moves to the beat of many drums, not reason alone. If you think that then I'd say you are a member of the Cult of Reason.
The world moves to the beat of many drums, not reason alone
I’m well aware of that.
But just because humans are prone to irrationality doesn’t mean that we should be advocating for a return to our most base instincts.
The world needs more rationality in Putins/Vladislav Surkovs/Trumps post-truth, postmodern, stranger things world.
I’m sure most of the astronauts who flew to the mood believed in God and they managed to avoid hitting any buildings on their way there.
Neil Armstrong - parents were devout but Neil himself didn't have any particular religious beliefs.
Buzz Aldrin - Presbyterian.
Michael Collins - "nominally" Episcopalian so Religious In Name Only I guess.
So that's about 50:50 so far. Are you "sure" enough for me to google the others and check?
And some of them believed in God even more once they’d come back.
Which ones?
It was the scientists who got us to the moon
You've no idea how many of them were religious. You talk big but you have no idea what you're on about and you look a tit.
And you're way off topic so please take it somewhere else.
You’ve no idea how many of them were religious. You talk big but you have no idea what you’re on about and you look a tit.
Doesn’t matter if they were personally, what matters is that it was the scientific method that got us there, not a religious structure of belief.
"mate", "buddy". I'm neither when they're used as condescending insults.
Look at the map mate, straight lines versus crinkly ones. Simples.
There are lots of "crinkly" lines in wet populated Africa and straight line where there's nothing and nobody, Just desert. Frontiers often follow rivers or watersheds which are crinkly but in desserts there are next to no natural or man-made features to follow. If it's simple it's not the same simple explanation as your complicated one, Inkster
You could also look at how your beloved France controls the finances / banking in West and Central Africa as well. Literally controlling the purse strings.
Tiens, c'est l'hôpital qui se moque de la Charité.
For some people localism is important.
Are we no longer using voter turn out to determine what is of importance to people?
I’d point out more of your inconsistencies, but I strongly suspect they are deliberate.
what matters is that it was the scientific method that got us there, not a religious structure of belief.
No, it doesn't matter - you're the one who's pitching religion against science and engineering. They aren't exclusive. Therefore, you can stop banging on about it now on the EU thread.
No, that was Inkster when he started banging on about “scientism” and blaming rationalism for human stupidity.
You’ve no idea how many of them were religious.
That's not what he was saying though. He's right that religion didn't get us to the moon. They didn't make the Saturn V lift off by the power of hopes and prayers, I didn't hear mission control going "T-minus 30 seconds, Kumbaya is a go." After Kennedy's speech, step 1 wasn't "assemble an army of priests, they'll get us to low Earth orbit at least."
Of course some, all or none of them may have been religious. This might well have given some the courage to climb on board a glorified ICBM but it was immaterial in getting us there.
I’m more than happy for my surgeon to be motivated by their faith, but I want any work they perform on me to be based on science.
He’s right that religion didn’t get us to the moon.
Of course not, but neither did art or strawberries. They're different and fairly unrelated concepts.
Anyway. IMO the ultimate cause of Brexit is probably the post-restoration settlement. The British constitution, with both monarch and parliament sharing power created a stable country for hundreds of years, which resulted in military power, defeating enemies and ultimately an empire, which is where the inflated British ego and exceptionalism comes from.
Other nations in Europe are attached to their language and culture, but their actual nation states less so because they have come and gone over the last few hundred years. They appreciate that actual statehood is a fluid thing even when cultural identity is still strong.
Inkster attempts to point out that they speak Spanish in Spain and French in France. But they speak German in Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Luxembourg, and related langauges in the Netherlands, Frisia, the UK, they speak Swedish in Sweden but a similar dialect in Norway and Denmark, they speak Italian in Switzerland as well as Italy, which is similar to Spanish - etc etc etc.
The point is we are all cousins, we all share history. This is why I think national borders are bollocks. So to me, the European project makes a lot of sense.
Last post from me on this thread.
It seems to have taken on a direction all of it's own and I feel largely responsible for that.
I love the philosophical debate but this is a thread about brexit after all and with only a few days to go feelings are pretty strong and I completely understand that. There's probably people dropping in wanting to talk about brexit having seen it at the top of the page pretty much constantly over the last couple of days who and are thinking wtf? when they touch down!
I think it best I start an new thread some time soon, dunno what it'll be called but probably something polemic like, "The cult of reason" or something on those lines.
Certainly it would be along the lines of Critical Rationalism or counterfactualism. Seeing as we seem to have taken this one to the moon it might be time to lift off.
Nothing would be out of bounds, even brexit. Sometimes it's felt like spinning plates in a Greek restaurant, posting a reply only to see it's already moved on a page whilst ive been typing! It's all good though.
Edukator, we've both been a bit passive aggressive with and condescending to each other though we've obviously enjoyed the experience, coming back at each other like two drunks in a bar! It would be nicer to have a thread where we could go gloves off with each other, maybe go in even harder without any bad feeling (not that I think there is really, otherwise we'd have opted out a couple of pages back. Same goes to you rayban, kimbers, cougar, slowoldman and the rest of you.
I miss some of the old philosophical debates as politics has come front and centre over the last 3 years and I'm sure I'm not alone.
Adios, au revoir, ciao, aufuiderzein and toodle pip......for now!
I'll still be popping in here for a peep though!
The EU project (I know you all hate that phrase) runs counter to the idea of localism.
No it doesn't. Quite the opposite, the EU has in place any number of measures to protect and enhance local cultures. Cornish Pasties are protected by EU law. You can't make a pasty in Belgium and call it a Cornish Pasty:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/protected-food-name-cornish-pasty-pgi
Protected Geographical Indication - loads of countries have them for products specific to one region. EU is protecting the rights / traditions of local people to make and market their products without being undercut by inferior products from elsewhere passed off under the same name. Yorkshire Wensleydale and Welsh Caerphily cheeses both have the same protection. Localism in action.
The EU (contrary to popular belief) allows individual countries to set their own laws, its not trying to create some super-state where everyone is living under the same conditions.
Of course not, but neither did art or strawberries. They’re different and fairly unrelated concepts.
Exactly my point, yes.
I think it best I start an new thread some time soon
I think that's a very good idea.
Cornish Pasties are protected by EU law. You can’t make a pasty in Belgium and call it a Cornish Pasty:
Er not until after Friday, once we’re rule takers all they have to do is take it off the protected list.
I’m not expecting this but just saying 🙂
Molgrips:
they speak Swedish in Sweden but a similar dialect in Norway and Denmark,
Easy now tiger, that's fighting talk! Norweigian is close, but Danish is like talking with marbles in your mouth.
I'm not super-clear on the origins of the language up here and how it spread, but the similarities are strong (I can understand Norwegien and Danish kind-of) and there is also usage in the Finland/Swedish border areas in Finland. It's almost expected though, given the reach that Sweden had in the Baltic region in the 1500s and onwards.
Yes and this is my point. We're all cousins or even siblings, including the incredible British.
The history of the rulers of the countries of these isles (rather than the people living in it) is written in Latin & French as much as any of the other many languages that have been used here.
Anyway, can we make this a positive thread for the rest of the week?
Possible upsides to Brexit only.
I’ll start…
If we refuse to allow other countries access to our fishing waters, and as a result put large barriers between our fishing industry and the market for their catch…
Perhaps it will be good for fishing stocks, and also perhaps there will a patriotic uprising and many more people within the UK will pay for and eat the quality produce caught of our shores, resulting in a greater appreciation for the natural world all around our isles.
You’re not trying Binners. Come on, post about a possible upside… give it a try…
At least Bozo and his clowns own this farce now
the sh!tshow is on them
(I know theyll obvs blame civil servants, barnier, labour, EU etc etc)
Plenty of upsides from where I'm sitting:
Easy now tiger, that’s fighting talk! Norweigian is close, but Danish is like talking with marbles in your mouth.
The other half always said the Danes spoke with a throat full of porridge
kelvin
Anyway, can we make this a positive thread for the rest of the week?Possible upsides to Brexit only.
Greatly increased prosperity for the select few.
Blue passports.
Cheap £ so people from 3rd world countries can afford to come here on holiday and wonder why we did this to ourselves.
Re-unification of Ireland, independence for Wales and Scotland, shortly followed by Yorkshire, Cornwall and the City of London.
About the only downside will be the necessity for [s]concentration camps[/s] immigrant retention centres for the Unionist British Nationalists from those countries who sadly discover that England only regards them as British if they stay where they belong, and not in England.
Deckchairs finally neatly arranged...
🙂
And the Immigration report is comedy gold too.
Fishing rights, not linking it but the DM reckons they are on the table too.
Brexit is going so well 😂😂
1. EU migrants return to the EU
2. Subsequent lack of health care professionals cause a massive dieback in boomer generation.
3. 1&2 result in housing surplus and subsequent property crash
4. Millennials stop whinging about being unable to get on the property ladder.
What could possibly go wrong?
perhaps there will a patriotic uprising and many more people within the UK will pay for and eat the quality produce caught of our shores
Except, we don't eat much of the type of fish that's native to our waters. Unless you're expecting everyone to patriotically start popping round to the chippie for herring and chips.
To be fair, the implosion of the NHS and resulting death rate also solves the pensions crisis as well.
I'm not saying it's in the government's interests to let a few infected people in from China, but it makes you think
Except, we don’t eat much of the type of fish that’s native to our waters.
I know. A change away from imported white fish to a wide variety of fish and seafood caught off the shores of Britain could be a positive outcome of Brexit, couldn’t it? When you see the amazing stuff we currently export to other countries, perhaps more people will get to know and consume it here, while we also leave more in the sea due to curtailed export opportunities. Okay, not good for a great many of our current fishermen, but it might improve our national attitude to the fish around the UK.
Anyway, instead of shooting down my attempt at a positive, come up with your own… let’s all look for positives on the run up to Friday.
Well - having fewer restrictions on state intervention could be a benefit, couldn't it? If there were the political will from government of course.
There are no benefits of brexit
I have been asking for positives since the referendum and still haven’t heard one.
Positives for Friday:
All the Brexit/UKIP MEP's out of a job.
The EU can get on with business without the deadweight of the British (Englixh actually) dragging it down.
A strengthening of the EU's unity as other nation states watch the UK shitshow.
er...
A change away from imported white fish to a wide variety of fish and seafood caught off the shores of Britain could be a positive outcome of Brexit, couldn’t it?
It could, yes, if people were prepared to do it. And I don't know for sure, but I'd rather think that if there was an 'appetite' for doing so we'd be doing it already.
Anyway, instead of shooting down my attempt at a positive, come up with your own… let’s all look for positives on the run up to Friday.
Struggling to think of many. We've been asking this question of leavers since 2016 and we've not had anything back that isn't based in fantasy.
I suppose when the exchange rate goes through the floor it'll be good for the tourism industry. Assuming people feel they're still welcome to visit here, anyway. Could bring in a bit of foreign money I guess.
kelvin
...Anyway, instead of shooting down my attempt at a positive, come up with your own… let’s all look for positives on the run up to Friday
To be fair, it's pretty hard.
It need not have been, but the UK govt has acted like a teenager having a tantrum who runs away from home yelling abuse at the household, slams the door, chucks away the door key, and with no money in his/her pocket hopes that paedo Uncle Donnie will give him/her shelter.
I expected a reasoned and logical approach to the separation, and wasn't expecting this shit-show of macho posturing by the UK govt. To be fair to Corbyn, I reckon he would have handled it much better.
I saw something on Twitter about a "return to a time" when films and TV programmes were being made without having to adhere to crazy EU PC rules regarding people of other colour/race/sexual preference. That could be a plus if you like that sort of thing . . . . which it would seem lots of Brits do.
Re local fish, doesn't Scotland have loads of Salmon? We'll all be eating Salmon three times a day. Huzzah!
Wait for the economy to tank. Invest in a SIPPs while things are at an all time low. Either things will be okay in 20 years time when I retire and I'll have a nice little nest egg, or not having a decent pension will be the least of my worries.
Except, we don’t eat much of the type of fish that’s native to our waters.
That's pollocks.
This plaice is getting worse
Stop it, you've giving me a haddock.
On brexit benefits: Over in the increasingly misnamed 50p thread, I've just posted this.
[Leavers have] been played for fools.
I genuinely hope that sooner or later people will realise that they’ve been manipulated, and that they get really angry about it. [On this thread] they’re asking about brexit positives, there’s one right here. We might see some actual positive change when people stop believing everything they read of the front page of the gutter press and redirect their ire at the people in Westminster who are actually responsible for all their ills.
At the risk of putting a downer on fishing rights... We might be leaving the EU but we aren't leaving OSPAR or the UNCLOS and those treaties prevent unilateral changes to access and activities at sea. If we are unable to fish to complete quotas as we don't have the vessels/manpower then other countries are entitled to take the rest. Countries/parties that have had historical access cannot be adversely affected by changes. Finally the quotas that have been set by the EU are by and large set by scientists in the UK. Leaving the EU doesn't change the science.
Sadly, for a lot of people, it's not about benefits and drawbacks, it's not even about the EU it's about winning. A lot of my family voted for Brexit and I got told in no uncertain terms - "you lot have had it too good for too long" When I asked who "you lot" were? I was told "You! You think you're better than us with your job and your house, well it's time you learned and now you will" I was absolutely dumbstruck by this - yes I have a professional job and a niceish house (1970s detached...), but by God have I worked for it. I put myself through night class, I put myself through uni, I worked my ass off in my early career and did my PhD in my own time at my own cost.
I almost said something, but then I thought...they know this, how did I become the bad guy here?
"Taking back control" has NOTHING to do with Europe! Maybe, at the start it did, but now Us and Them are the same people separated by something...class? Hard work? A willingness to move for work? I genuinely don't know. I knew my hometown was a hole with no prospects, so I worked, saved up and left...was that the difference?
Sadly, for a lot of people... it’s about winning.
Yup. I've said this several times on here. "We won you lost shut up and get over it." It's like it's a bloody football match.
“you lot have had it too good for too long” When I asked who “you lot” were? I was told “You! You think you’re better than us with your job and your house, well it’s time you learned and now you will”
Well I have been saying this for a long time. We live in a country where opportunity to do well is now a function of your background, family connections and wealth, and your social network. If you have none of those things then you have little chance of breaking out of the downward spiral. The result is that those who are caught in it will bring as many with them as they can, and brexit is their opportunity to do that. Instead of blaming them and hoping they get poorer (as many on here do), perhaps we should be thinking about how to address the root problems that got us here.
You're absolutely right, of course, Daz. The irony of it all is that those at the bottom of the heap already, and the most economically disadvantaged areas are the ones that are going to be absolutely clobbered by Brexit.
While those that already have the most will stand to make the most gains
Its the soon-to-be-redundent car plant workers of Sunderland, and the jobs that depend on them, who are going to pay the price for this. I doubt the Hedge Fund Managers of Surrey will be shedding too many tears as they count the millions in their offshore bank accounts.
Brexit is about to turbo-charge inequality in this country.
Whats going to be interesting is what happens when everyone realises how much they've been lied too
Actually... I know what'll happen....
Absolutely nothing. They'll just moan about it while watching Love Island and probably blame foreigners again, egged on by the tabloid press
There may be some truth to that more generally Dazh, but Daffy was talking about family. I’m guessing that they had similar “background, family connections and wealth” when setting off in life.
Anyway, I still like to believe there are some people who want Brexit as they hope that it will bring benefits to all, not just to bring down others. A lot of things I’ve heard in the last few years makes that seem a increasing naive belief though.
Easy now tiger, that’s fighting talk! Norweigian is close, but Danish is like talking with marbles in your mouth.
There is no "Norwegian" it's either Bokmal or Nynorsk... but the pronunciation of Danish is very special. My Nynorks and Bokmal are both limited but written Danish is mostly intelligible but the minute it's spoken I know how people learning English must feel.
epicyclo
Re-unification of Ireland, independence for Wales and Scotland, shortly followed by Yorkshire, Cornwall and the City of London.
Funnily enough at the bottom of that barrel... the glimmer of silver lining might be a cessation of something that started in 1455 and quite probably something pre-dating even that akin to 9C.
I can forsee a Lancs/Yorks/Cumbria nation... the old Northumbria
Cornwall isn't technically fully England anyway, the relationship was never formalised and
Wessex and the "not it's own Kingdom on Kent" ... a bit of juggling about in Mercia both ways with London being the same as it was in the DaneLaw owned by non of the Kingdoms as a neutral junction?
I can forsee a Lancs/Yorks/Cumbria nation…
I'd wager that's about as likely as the United Kingdoms of Great Britain, Northern Ireland and Germany. We've not forgotten the war on either side of the Pennines.
I know. A change away from imported white fish to a wide variety of fish and seafood caught off the shores of Britain could be a positive outcome of Brexit, couldn’t it?
I can imagine the uproar in chippies. "I want white fish".
Cougar
I’d wager that’s about as likely as the United Kingdoms of Great Britain, Northern Ireland and Germany. We’ve not forgotten the war on either side of the Pennines.
LOL: but in all seriousness I can see when the crap hits the fan, Scotland and NI are already gone and quite probably Wales. Everyone is blaming Westminster (or London whilst conveniently forgetting London voted remain) not how they voted a Northern state could be made into a popular vote winner.
I have been asking for positives since the referendum and still haven’t heard one.
Garage will no longer be collecting 85k a year of our taxes to sit in his house and fist his own anus.
The irony of it all is that those at the bottom of the heap already, and the most economically disadvantaged areas are the ones that are going to be absolutely clobbered by Brexit.
Well this has been discussed previously also, and the answer is that they believe they don't have much to lose. They may be wrong, but the fact they believe it is the problem. Poverty is relative, and these people have a quite understandable belief that those who are better off didn't get there through hard graft and ability.
but Daffy was talking about family. I’m guessing that they had similar “background, family connections and wealth” when setting off in life.
So what are you saying? That daffy took the advantages his family gave him, used them for his own betterment and then failed to give anything back? That could be a metaphor for the whole country.
Meanwhile,
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-51271287
Campaigners have officially ended a crowdfunding appeal which was raising money to make Big Ben's bell ring to mark Brexit day.
The StandUp4Brexit group says the £272,000 raised will instead go to veterans' charity Help for Heroes.
They say efforts to persuade House of Commons authorities to accept the donation have been "unsuccessful".
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think Help for Heroes accepted political donations? So isn't this going to blow up in their faces too?
There are no benefits of brexit
There is one major benefit: Nigel Farage, Ann Widdecombe, Annunwhats-er-face Rees-Mogg and the rest of the scumbag Brexit MEPs are all out of a job. Bet the EU will be glad to see the back of the useless argumentative thickos and they can get on with having proper constructive debates rather than listening to another 20-minute Farage monologue.
So what are you saying? That daffy took the advantages his family gave him, used them for his own betterment and then failed to give anything back? That could be a metaphor for the whole country.
I think what he, and Daffy, were saying is that they all started in the same shithole, Daffy took some action and put in some effort that paid off; the rest of his family didn't.
Therefore, in their minds, he's a ****, and they voted for Brexit to try to get even with him for making a go of his life.
I apologise for this.
https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/1222233678597718017?s=19
Jesus H Christ.
This is the worst thing I've ever seen.