[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

presence in Westminster? Our system is far from perfect but historically it seems to have kept extremist parties out of the mainstream

Looking at Brexit, windrush, mass privatisation, child poverty, food bank dependency

I'm not sure that isn't a myth we tell ourselves to keep reality at bay

These are all laudable desires and are very important to some people, the fact that we either already have these things or they otherwise have no basis in fact simply does not matter

Spot on.

I was thinking about the election this morning and had the realisation that the Tories spent the last decade raping the country financially then managed to convince enough of the electorate that labour were going to steal whatever is left.

Historians will have a field day with this era in years to come

Keeping extreme parties out of parliament is counter productive. I'd much rather see extremes making dicks of themselves in parliament than have them hijack the main parties. The Brexit party has done no damage whatsoever to the European decsion making process but Boris making a deal with the Brexit party got him into power.

barely elected European Parliament?

IMO the Europen model with its proportional representation is the nearest to perfect democratic model on the planet. Try aguing againt using real arguments instead of hot air, you'll fail.

Oldmanmtb -

Sad but all true, as you recognise, I'm only trying to look at some of the long running a deep rooted symptoms that have led us to this sorry state of affairs. Brexit itself is not going to remedy any of the problems facing the left behind, that boat sailed long ago.

My main concern is that we don't push the working class further to the right with sanctimony and insults. There's an argument that the working class decides history and I can't find much evidence to dispute that fact. So as a middle class liberal I am mindful that if l
Left my emotions unchecked I could do little but exacerbate the problem. Those of us who voted remain are begining to behave in a reactionary way, similar to what we accuse Brexiters of doing. Two wrongs never made a right, I'm not proposing any solutions to the problem, I'm only looking to not make a bad situation even worse.

I do however hold the EU responsible for indulging in a deluded pipe dream, detached from reality and beholden to ideology. The European project was set up in response to 2 world wars that tore the continent apart, looking to unite through trade and cultural exchange. 25 years ago that mission got side tracked into some other kind of neo liberal project.

All alliances are fragile by nature, pragmatic rather than perfect. The idea of creating some European super state made that fragile thing brittle. To make some comparisons, the USA is 250 years old and is still a somewhat fragile entity, individual states having a good deal of autonomy, in many respects it isn't a fully unified entity. I think the feeling was that the EU was looking to achieve in 50 years what the USA hasn't managed to achieve in two and a half centuries. I'm sure people will jump on that observation and point out how stupid I am for saying such a thing but I think that is the perception for a lot of people.

The EU became oblivious to potential dangers, thinking that by extending democracy and unifying politically we'd create some sort of nirvana. It's kind of like that end of history idea (the philosopher Francos Fukuyama posited this idea at the end of the cold war) it's the idea that Western capitalist democracy had won and was some how an end point for political history, an inevitable destination for all mankind, eventually the whole world would follow suit. That's beginning to look a bit like a fallacy now.

Brexit was the end of the end of history, things are proving to be a little more complicated. We can't design ourselves out of history, we may actually be destined to repeat it.

Danny h -

Are you posting from the pub mate? If so, make mine a double.

25 years ago that mission got side tracked into some other kind of neo liberal project.

Have you looked at the rest of the world? Just wondering why you might think this a purely European phenomenon. Also wondering whether you think Brexit will accelerate such change within the UK, and between the UK and other countries across the world, or somehow insulate the UK population against such change?

Danny h –

Are you posting from the pub mate? If so, make mine a double

Keep up the passive aggressiveness. Brilliant work.

Danny h –

Are you posting from the pub mate? If so, make mine a double.

No mate.

I don't tend to go for 'doubles' as I really don't like the hard stuff. Never have. Gin and tonic is about all I can enjoy, and then not more than one.

I do love a pint of decent bitter, though, how about you?

IMO the Europen model with its proportional representation is the nearest to perfect democratic model on the planet.

That's a joke right? A model that enshrines establishment power via technocratic bureaucracy and corporate lobbying is perfect? The main difference between the european model and the British/US FPTP models is that the the european model is slightly more sympathetic to the views of it's citizens whilst being more difficult to change. If the status quo works for you then great, if not - as in the case of the Greeks - you're f*****. If you define democracy as government by the people, for the people, then the models we have today barely deserve the name.

Keep up the passive aggressiveness. Brilliant work.

Ohhh, it's passive aggressive.....

And there was me thinking inkster was just being chatty.

Well, blow me down.

If the status quo works for you then great, if not – as in the case of the Greeks – you’re f*****

Ah, the old "Greece was ****ed by the EU" trope

Kelvin and kimbers-

Fair points,

FPTP vs PR, roll of the dice.

Windrush is an excellent example of your point. Nothing to do with Europe but an opportunity exploited by the Conservatives in the Brexit hubbub. Quite possibly the most shameful thing I've seen from any government in my lifetime. The absolute opposite of everything I consider to be British. I know someone who has spent the last 2 years in a holding / detention centre. Thankfully out now, thanks in part to the involvement of my local MP

And there was me thinking inkster was just being chatty

He tried it on the previous page suggesting Kimbers "keep being a dick" if he wants

Trolling 101

I do wonder what previously banned member he is🤔

as in the case of the Greeks

Why did they beg to be let in to the Euro then?

Edited, replied too quick, meaning could be misinterpreted.

He tried it on the previous page suggesting Kimbers “keep being a dick” if he wants

Trolling 101

I know. You can ping them a mile off. Sad isn't it?

Ah, the old “Greece was **** by the EU” trope

Largely the other way around. Greece made all sorts of promises then did bugger all to put it's own house in order re unpaid and uncollected taxes.

Still, evil old EU eh?

Danny h-

Depends mate,

A nice Belgian beer, a glass of nice French wine, bit of German Riesling, Spanish cava, some Italian Chianti, or a drop of Greek ouzo, I'm quite cosmopoltan me!

On every other supposed leaving the EU date we had wall to wall coverage. It’s 5 days to go and barely a peep. What’s going on?

I do however hold the EU responsible for indulging in a deluded pipe dream, detached from reality and beholden to ideology.

From where I'm sitting it's reality not a dream and as ideologies go the priciples are humanist and democratic. Pig in shit in Europe me: euro in my pocket, an MEP I voted for to represent me in the parliament, I have worked and lived in four members states, the ECJ to look after my rights, people to look after the safety of the food I eat and the water I drink (and swim in)... .

Fight the good fight remainers. Vive la résistance !

My main concern is that we don’t push the working class further to the right with sanctimony and insults. 

The well-reasoned and balanced debate of 2016 worked a treat, right?

Chianti

I only just got back into a drop of red after a decade or so of not bothering.

Not chianti, alas, but Valpolicella. Now that I do like.

I know someone who has spent the last 2 years in a holding / detention centre.

That is truly awful. Hate that people can be treated that way. Still, we’ll be able to treat more people from more countries appallingly, so that’s one Brexit positive for some people (but don’t call those people names).

That’s a joke right?

He was referring to the voting system used, do you disagree it works in a way that is preferable to the elections to our national parliament (well, the bit of it that is elected at all)? For example… how well is your MP representing you and your priorities in our parliament?

You are talking about the balance between national governments, the council, the parliament, and how they interact… with each other and third parties… which is far form perfect… but when you look closer to home the same is true… is it not? Perhaps worse.

Boardinbob -

Did you actually read what I wrote and what kimbers wrote before?

I complemented him on a well thought out post, where he had finished up saying he would keep on being a dick by defacing 50p pieces if Brexiters continued to wind him up.

I merely said feel free to do this if he wanted and said I thought it was cathartic and a much better thing to do than merely shout at people. Sorry if you took it the wrong way on his behalf, my comment was made in jest and with a certain amount of empathy.

I've been sparring a bit with Danny h on this thread and he seems to be able to take it in good faith, I'll extend that good faith to you as well xxx

If you're wondering which (not what) previously banned member I am you're going to be wondering for a very long time, we might have even rejoined by the time you work it out. Refering to me as what member implies that I am a penis. I am not a penis, I am a dick sometimes, in the same way as kimbers professed to being. Don't forget, we're all dicks on here.

Genuine question. What makes you think I might be a previously banned member? Looking to broaden a conversation doesn't get you banned on here, at least not yet anyhow.

Your posting history says you're not a returning banned, Inkster, just an infrequent poster. It also confirms you're consistently anti-Brexit which is inconsistent with being a Brexit apologist.

What I have issue with is that your view of the EU mimicks the lies in the right-wing and gutter press. Try some alternative news sources.

Pondo-

If you want to discuss the well reasoned and balanced debate of 2016 look at my comments about Corbyn and the bus on the previous page. I suggested that his tepid but disengenous support for remain was as responsible for the toxicity surrounding the debate as anyone else.

The best most 'apologists' for Brexit can come up with is that large sections of our society were duped by tactics (which are obvious to anyone prepared or able to take a step back and take a look) into voting for something that is contra to their best interests.

It is possible to come up with all sorts of adjective for that, but they are all basically euphemisms for 'gullible' and/or 'stupid'. It can be used as an insult, yes, but it is also just inherent in Brexit.

The idea of creating some European super state made that fragile thing brittle.

Sure. But as ideas go, it's a fictional one.

I think that is the perception for a lot of people.

No arguments here, but I've said before that a big problem is people's 'perception' rather than any sort of reality.

That’s a joke right?

That comment surprises me, I rather thought you two would get on like besties.

Kelvin-

Windrush is more than awful, it's truly abhorrent. I also have European friends who have had to trawl through 17 years worth of paperwork to prove their right to be here.

As you suggest, some people will use brexit as an excuse to call others names but does it make it any better if we then call them names as well? In the short term it would probably make me feel better to do so, though I am aware that the worst they can do to me is call me a snowflake or remoaner. If I look to wind them up it's not me who is going to suffer any real consequences, it will be those they identify as 'other' who will be on the recieving end of their hatred, my friends and family for starters.

So I'm saying to all of you, think before you slag,

I suggested that his tepid but disengenous support for remain was as responsible for the toxicity surrounding the debate as anyone else.

I'm not sure as you can blame Corbyn for the "toxicity," brexit is inherently toxic. Blaming him for his lack of opposition exacerbating the problem though, absolutely.

Remain hasn't had a coherent voice / credible representation since 2016, the day after the referendum we were being told (democratically, obvs) to shut up and no-one of any clout has stood up to say otherwise.

Edukator-

Try some alternative news sources you say. How about coming on here to get bashed by people like you with your lazy insults.

Look at what you've just written, you say you can see that I'm an anti brexiter but because my views don't 'mimic' those of yourself and others like you who think I've been duped by the right wing gutter press.

How does that amount to anything more than a lazy insult?

I am capable of holding more than one thought in my head at the same time, my views on the EU have been what they are for a long time, long before I drunk the Murdoch cool aid. Didn't stop me from voting remain though because, as I said, I am capable of holding more than one thought in my head at the same time.

I'm actually a bit of a pretentious t**t, my thought is shaped more by looking at history and reading a bit of phillosopy. Check out Karl Popper, 'An open society and it's enemies', or a bit of John Gray (he wrote an interesting piece on why the left keeps losing in the New Statesman last week.) Or if you like, just stick to the echo chamber on your Facebook page where you can just unfriend anyone whose thoughts you don't agree with (or understand)

At least on here you can't just unfriend those with different views, though I feel that if you could you would unfriend me in a second.

I'm off now to have a w**k into a rolled up copy of the Daily Mail.

brexit is inherently toxic

Ain't that the truth. That is because no good can come of it for 99%+ of the population. Never could, never will.

no-one of any clout has stood up to say otherwise.

The fact that they'd immediately receive 100+ death threats will have had a part in that.

Has anyone done any survey on the number of direct threats made against individuals or their families by each 'side'?

I'm pretty sure we all know which 'side' would be more guilty.

I received a load of personal abuse and threats from one angry man. In the original exchange all I did was correct his understanding of the voting system used in the European elections. Not normally a topic that would cause the reaction I got.

"You little this, you little that, * you, I'm coming for you, you little *' etc.

Thing is, I'm above average height and looking at his profile pics he seemed a bit on the short side. Maybe that had something to do with it? I resisted the temptation to point this out, blocked the silly berk, and left him to shout at the sky. And he had 'won', remember.

I’m off now to have a w**k into a rolled up copy of the Daily Mail.

Better use for it than reading it.

I’m actually a bit of a pretentious t**t,

That bit I understand and agree with. 🙂 But no I won't be reading anything by the other "prententious t**ts" you quote any more than you'll start watching Euronews and reading the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung or Charlie Hébdo. I'm fond of reality based reasoning. Check out the last 1900 pages.

Look at what you’ve just written,

I don't need to I wrote it. The "lazy insult" was deliberately chosen to mimick what you've been doing over the last few pages to your adversaries and point out to you the way your views of the EU come across.

Back up your anti-EU rhetroic with something the EU has done that adversly affects you that is actually worse than what the UK government was doing before. Find me some ECJ rulings you disagree with. Some EU parliament voting decisions you find abhorent.

I'm really happy living in Europe and recognise that a lot of what I like is the direct result of the EU project. You slag it off, I'll defend it.

Cougar-

I'm not blaming Corbyn for his lack of opposition, quite the opposite(sic) in fact.

I'm asking you to imagine that if Corbyn, a lifelong eurosceptic had remained true to his convictions and supported brexit what could have happened? Maybe the debate would have been a little less racist and xenophobic, maybe Boris wouldn't have come out in favour of Brexit maybe the working class northerners wouldn't have deserted Labour. Lots of maybe I know and I'm not saying I know exactly what would have happened, I'm just positing a question, trying to think in a less binary way.

Corbyn showed weakness,sitting on the fence when the country needed leadership from him. Just imagine for one minute, brexit was a non party issue and if Cameron had led remain and Corbyn led brexit the debate would have surely been different and perhaps more informed. With the two party leaders adopting counter intuitive positions, Boris might have decided to keep his powder dry and sit it out, waiting to see what happened.

If you want to discuss the well reasoned and balanced debate of 2016 look at my comments about Corbyn and the bus on the previous page. I suggested that his tepid but disengenous support for remain was as responsible for the toxicity surrounding the debate as anyone else.

You did and it was as misguided as your call not to alienate the working class.

Danny h

True dat.

Very patronising and rather nasty and untrue attack on me Inkster. I did not say the working class were stupid. I said the brexiteers are. and they are.

I don't see much point in trying to answer hypothetical questions about a situation that never existed with personalities doing things they didn't do (and would never have done) and then rewriting history based on that fabrication, Inkster.

But that's what you are asking us (Cougar mainly) to do.

And then you want those of us against Brexit to roll over and contribute positively. We won't. Those of us in Europe want our governments (the people Britain will be negotiating with as of next week) to look after our interests.

Britain is about to become a commercial and political adversary rather than one of the gang. I want Macron and Van de Leyen to insist that Michel Barnier defend my interests.

inkster

Member (of some kind)

So I’m saying to all of you, think before you slag,

yeah thought about it and based on the commonly held belief that "berksiteers" are in fact not stupid the conclusion is..

Not to slag them off.

To make no attempt at consolation with them.

To laugh at any misfortunes and difficulties they will suffer as a result of their political "feelings"
maybe even to publicise their stuggles with losing a job and dealing with universal credit, providing a future with opportunity for their offspring etc. on social media...

to not offer assistance if I really needed to go and they were on fire.

and generally to make thier lives as miserable as possible with any dealings they may have with me.

whats good for the goose and all that...

Edukator-

I wouldn't dismiss any of the sources you suggest, I might even check out the Euronews channel. I might even have a peek at the Frankrter Allgermine. Charlie Hebdo isn't really my tasse de the though.

Do you regard Karl Popper and John Gray as pretentious t**ts simply because I am a pretentious t**t or are you familiar with their work? Would you dismiss anything I liked as being awful simply because I liked it? How would you cope if we both happened to like the same thing I wonder?

In an earlier post you referred to EU regulations regarding food and water standards. You'll get no argument from me there, I am as concerned as anyone regarding these type of issues, that's one of the main reasons I voted remain despite certain reservations.

It's not that I necessarily disagree with any particular EU regulations or ECJ rulings as regards them effecting me here in the UK, (though my partner who is from Africa would have a lot to say about the way in which the EU treats that continent)

My question would be why do we need an elected parliament to achieve any of this? Why couldn't it just be dealt with by civil servants appointed by the respective governments?

I just reject the idea of a democratically elected EU parliament that has been elected by a small minority. The politicians are invisible, how many people can name or recognise a single EU politician apart from Juncer and Barnier? I'm sure you can but then you've worked in 4 European countries and are a committed Europhile (as is your right)

Why couldn’t it just be dealt with by civil servants appointed by the respective governments?

Because that wouldn't be very democratic given the lack of proportional representation in many member states and the huge differences in populations represented.

If you want a European to listen to get an idea of where negotiations are likely to go I suggest starting with Andej Plenkovic. The current Croatian prime minister, Croatia has the presidence of the conseil de l'union European at present. He worked in Paris for 5 years, is close to Macron and has an excellent grasp of what Britain wants to grasp with Brexit.

5:24 on for perceptive comments on Brexit.

The politicians are invisible

Blame British media for that, not Europe.

Sorry TJ, Didn't mean to be nasty, sorry if you took it that way. Looking back at your post I see that you're caĺing all Brexiters stupid.

I think a lot of brexiters are stupid and a lot of remainers are stupid and doubtless a lot of you think I'm stupid as well.

Let me just say, I think Brexit is stupid as well, I just think it was inevitable. Terrible leadership from Cameron and Corbyn, taken advantage of by Boris and a bunch of b**tards.

If by my trying to explore some of the underlying issues that led to this you think I'm a brexit appologist (not sure if they were your words, but that's what plenty on there have accused me of being) then there's nowt I can do about that.

We all have different opinions with regards different voting systems. If by voicing my opinion that I think the EU parliament was a mistake, and something I cite as one of the fundamental reasons for the project falling apart you think I'm wrong then fair enough, its just my opinion. Call me wrong, call me a fool but please don't call me a brexit apologist.

Iffoverload -

There's nothing I can say to that.

I just reject the idea of a democratically elected EU parliament that has been elected by a small minority.

Do you also reject your local council elected on the same sized majority & turnout?

EU Is also more that just the parliament ; we also have a seat on the council of ministers- and rotating presidency of it, British commissioners ,british judges on the ECJ etc

You talk as if we aren't integral members of the EU and have no input on its direction or how it functions

The EU isn't something done to us, it's something we are part of & help steer (for a few more days at least)

I'm not saying you're wrong about chucking out abuse, you just seen to be lazily repeating brexiteer myths, not sure if you're playing devil's advocate or not tho!

I’m asking you to imagine that if Corbyn, a lifelong eurosceptic had remained true to his convictions and supported brexit

Corbyn is a lifelong Eurosceptic yes. That doesn't mean he's a brexit supporter, these are two wildly different standpoints. That conflict probably explains why he's had a fence post up his arse for the last four years.

maybe Boris wouldn’t have come out in favour of Brexit

You've not been paying attention. Boris will always come out in favour of whatever he believes will serve him most favourably. He doesn't give a shit about brexit outside of personal gain, the only thing Boris cares about is Boris.

My question would be why do we need an elected parliament to achieve any of this? Why couldn’t it just be dealt with by civil servants appointed by the respective governments?

If we do away with elections where does that government come from?

I think the EU parliament was a mistake, and something I cite as one of the fundamental reasons for the project falling apart

Whilst the former is an opinion you're more than entitled to, the latter is an untruth. It's not falling apart, at all.

In fact, if there's been one positive to be drawn from the entire brexit process, it's that it's killed "Frexit" etc and the potential rise of the continental far right stone dead. 27 other countries have looked at where we are currently and gone "**** that."

I cite as one of the fundamental reasons for the project falling apart

It isn't, it's getting bigger and stronger. I reckon Brexit has already strengthened the union. Even France's populist RN (FN rebadged) has dropped polices on Frexit and dropping the Euro as there is so much popular support for Europe. The irony is that Europeans are now seeing Brexit as an opportunity in the same way as a pub rejoices when the pub over the road fires its best bar staff, takes chips off the menu, stops selling real ale and starts charging £10 to use the toilets. If Brexit is an opportunity for Britain it's a much bigger opportunity for EU countries.

Cougar-

I think your right when you say brexit is all about feelings, that's why rational argument was never going to succeed.

My response to that is that given that it was all about feelings, why didn't the remain side wake up to this and campaign on a more persuasive message.

I work in the arts and it's an area almost completely dominated by the liberal left. It's a field that has become more concerned with instruction than seduction and I would apply the same thing to politics.

Art and music has always worked by seducing people, connecting with their inner emotions, presenting them with things they haven't thought of before and consequently stimulating them. Well they say art mirrors life and I'm suggesting (A bit like you when you mention the importance of feelings) that politics is no different. Remain and the left in general needs to learn how to seduce rather than instruct.

Oh, and thanks for not banning me, are members seriously suggesting I should be banned? I can't for the life of me see where I've said anything that deserves a ban? Like you I don't want this place to become an echo chamber, that's not the kind of place I want this to be.

I'm not going to run away just yet either, everyone talks about diversity these days and so they should but how about a little diversity of thought eh?

There's more to come from me as well, re the expansion of the EU into the former Eastern bloc and the Uk's role in that. Also the expansion in university intake and university fees and what that meant for the class balance in education and how thats fed into contemporary politics as well.

My response to that is that given that it was all about feelings, why didn’t the remain side wake up to this and campaign on a more persuasive message.

Science vs magic.

The scientists aren’t about to become magicians, just because the public lap it up. If they did, they’d just be shit magicians and called out as hypocrites and liars, and as a result would fail to win over the fans of magic anyway.

I’m not going to run away just yet either, everyone talks about diversity these days and so they should but how about a little diversity of thought eh?

You’re thinking up this stuff, not just repeating it?

I just reject the idea of a democratically elected EU parliament that has been elected by a small minority. The politicians are invisible, how many people can name or recognise a single EU politician apart from Juncer and Barnier?

IF EU citizens aren't engaged with EU politics then that is their fault. They have the option to take part in choosing their representation, they just waive it. That is not the fault of the EU, nor does it de-legitimise it.

Edukator-

So brexit has strengthened the union yes?

I'll have a think on that one, probably have a peep at the video link you sent first,

University fees, what university fees? Junior gets a grant and his fees paid in France. He got a French Bac and German Abitur thanks to cooporation between France and Germany. He had an Erasmus year at the Humbolt in Berlin... .

Brtian's exclusive in the bad sense education system can't be blamed on Europe and Brexit certainly won't improve matters. In fact according to the university types on this forum Brexit is resulting in funding cuts for research, falling student numbers and a loss of status.

long before I drunk the Murdoch cool aid.

Did you?

My response to that is that given that it was all about feelings, why didn’t the remain side wake up to this and campaign on a more persuasive message.

Because it was a myopic campaign. Credit where it's due, the leave campaign was and continues to be a masterclass in gross manipulation.

are members seriously suggesting I should be banned?

Not to my knowledge.

the expansion in university intake

Figures please.

So inkster what would you suggest? Should we simply "roll with it"?

I for one have liquidated and shifted certain assets to ensure the well being of my family and business interests, is this wrong should i blindly fall in line and commit to the cause?

What is expected of us working class entrepreneurs? I think some Brexiteer cheerleaders need to step up and start delivering the economic miracle they have sold to poor people? What do you think? Will you be sacrificing your familys future for the greater good? At the end of the day people like me are being asked to underwrite the cheques that Boris and associated **** wits are writing? I will not be doing so and by the way the one thing I understand is that all this shite will catch up with them.

Are the bulk of Brexiteers thick? No but they are manipulated and easily led due to media and a lack of education.

Edukator

Member

In fact according to the university types on this forum Brexit is resulting in funding cuts for research, falling student numbers and a loss of status.

It looks like this year is going to be pretty flat- so an end to the rise, rather than a definite fall. Still bad news. (the incredibly important chinese and indian markets are growing, China at a huge rate, so just standing still represents a significant loss of market interest) and our people in country hear brexit all the time as a reason. Not just brexit itself, but what it says about the country and about who's in charge. The surge in hate crime among that. And not brexit alone- when Theresa May became PM a lot of people took notice, after years of dealing with her as a nightmare home secretary. Boris doesn't have the same toxicity in this area at least.

Edukator -
In good faith I said I'd take a look at the video you posted.

It's in French. You didn't mention that. Thats not good faith on your part, my French doesnt extend much past tasse de the, bonjour and au revoir.

I'll get to the university intake and fees question later, glad juniors getting it all for free over there in France, can't say the same here in the UK though sadly.

Kimbers - molgrips -
You're equating local elections with European elections? I knew someone would come up with this false equivalence sooner or later. Local elections are for local people. Everyone knows what local elections represent, they relate to local and specific issues. For me and I think many others the EU elections are remote and somewhat abstract. maybe not for you but you might be smarter than me.

Participation in EU elections by UK citizens has never reached much over 40% and has been as low as 24%, nearly half the European average and miniscule in relation to countries like Belgium where figures over 90% are common. Does this tell you anything?

But as you say kimbers if EU citizens aren't engaged then it's their fault. Thats rather like Labour's analysis of their defeat, where they ask themselves what went wrong and conclude that it was the electorate that went wrong.

Cougar -
Through the Blair years university intake increased exponentially, whilst intake from working class applicants decreased dramatically, I'll expand on the cultural effect that has had later.

Kelvin -

It's not science versus magic, it's scientism versus reality, remains' failure to put forward a decent or seductive argument and rely on sets of figures was never going to work was it. When has the public ever trusted figures put forward by politicians? Why put the scientists up to sell a position? If you've got something to sell that put a salesman up front to try and sell it.

All the kings horses and all the kings men, couldn't put humpty together again...Should have let the men have a go first, the horses were never going to be able to do it.

Oldmanmtb11 -
Few assets and no kids here, less choices than you unfortunately.

It's the media's fault, it's always the medias fault isn't it.

All this stuff about should we just roll over, never going to accept it etc is beyond irrelevant.

it’s scientism versus reality

Postmodernist bullshit

It’s in French. You didn’t mention that. Thats not good faith on your part, my French doesnt extend much past tasse de the, bonjour and au revoir.

It was a test of your interest, ability and attitude. 🙂

You din't click before your fist replied to it, didn't understand it when you did and then felt offended or maybe threatened by it. You don't need to understand it to get the point I'm making - Boris is up against calm, thinking, articulate europhiles such as Plenkovic and will fail to get a deal anything like as good being an EU member. His bluster and bullshit convinced the British public to vote for him but won't convince the 27 to give him what he wants.

It’s in French. You didn’t mention that. Thats not good faith on your part, my French doesn't extend much past tasse de thé, bonjour and au revoir.

Couldn't you see the title? There was a bit of a clue there. French used to be the language of diplomacy as English was regarded as passé and a tad blunt for delicate negotiations.

The fact that neither of us could understand what was in the video is our fault for failing to engage properly with the neighbours, they have been patient so far, they no longer need to bother after Friday.

Inkster Im not sure how you can claim false equivelence

how many people can name their local councilors?

But as you say kimbers if EU citizens aren’t engaged then it’s their fault. Thats rather like Labour’s analysis of their defeat, where they ask themselves what went wrong and conclude that it was the electorate that went wrong.

where on earth did I say this?!

I said it was our own politicians overinflating their value helped convince (half the) people that EU didnt matter, so convinced of their own right to rule they darent acknowledge that international integration & cooperation are part of government & economics.

And yes, Ill blame the press too they also share part of the blame, theyve spent the best part of the last 40 years stoking xenophobia, which fed perfectly into the Brexit debate

Of course there was a failure of remain to communicate & relate , we had 2 of the smarmiest Tories ever (Cameron & Osborne) telling everyone that they knew best

(The press) also share their part in the blame...)

Is ‘blame’ the correct word when they got the result that they convinced the electorate to desire? Propaganda is a very useful political tool. One might say the most useful.

There’s a handy compilation of erroneous anti-EU claims just been published, so at least the newspaper-reading portion of the electorate might now re-inform themselves after the fact (-less).

An old phrase comes to mind:

‘Lies travel halfway around the world before the truth can get it’s boots on’

Who really cares after the fact? People love to pick a side and then subsequently don’t care about facts which don’t support their chosen grievance/narrative . The UK press know this effect very well. Of course, the list doesn’t include the steady drip-drip (to become the torrent) of ‘immigrant/foreigner/Muslim/swarthy scrounger gets all of your stuff and then pisses in your soup before raping your grandmother’ stories that have dominated the press in the last few decades.

Anyway, that list. Rebutted here

Abattoirs – EC hygiene rules force closure of abattoirs, Nov 1992

Abattoirs – Local meat products under threat from new EC Health Directives, Jan 1993

Acres – Acres are outlawed by Brussels, Jul 2008

Acrobats, Africa – EU funding for African acrobats and trapeze artists, July 2015

Aga – New EU sulphur rules will cause problems with oil-fired Aga’s, Dec 2009

A-levels – EU to phase out A-levels for EU style diplomas, Jan 2000

Acorns – EU to prevent the sale of English oak seeds, Nov 1994

Advertising, sex discrimination – EU to ban advertising for same-sex flats, Sep 2004

Advertising, sweets and toys – Swedish Presidency will force a ban on sweet and toy ads, Feb 1999

Africa, Circus artists – EU funding for African acrobats and trapeze artists, July 2015

Agriculture, set-aside – Farmers to be encouraged to mow land early resulting in “massacre” of game, May 1993

Agriculture, subsidies and fraud – CAP spending and fraud out of control, Aug 1993

Agriculture, three-crop rule – EU tells British farmers what they can grow, Nov 2014

Aircraft, low flying jets – MOD to be forced to pay compensation for military jet noise pollution, Dec 1995

Alcohol sales – EU ‘bans boozing’, Feb 2005

Ale, name – Light ale to be forced to change its name, May 2005

Allergen rules – UK diners will face £200m for EU allergen rules, Nov 2014

Ambulances – False alarm over 999 calls, Dec 2006

Ambulances – Ambulances turn yellow for Europe, Mar 2002

Ambulances, St Johns – EU to force St Johns Ambulances to replace its entire fleet, Apr 2002

America – Let’s quit the EU and link up with America, Oct 1998

Animals, use of human medicines – Human medicines to be forbidden for use on animals, Feb/Mar 1995

Anthem, European – Europeans to find themselves singing about “the motherland”, Feb 2004

Anti-drugs, Peru – Taxpayers money used to rehabilitate Peruvian drug addicts, Jul 2014

Apples, Apple orchards – British apple orchards to lose out to over productive continental farms, Mar 1995

Apples, Danish – EC regulations forbid the marketing of Ingrid Marie apple, Nov 1992

Apples, standards – Quality standards ban curved cucumbers and certain apples, Jun 1993

Aristocrats, and wine labels – EC to register aristocrats to check for improper labelling of wine, Oct 1993

Army vehicles – Army to be forced to upgrade trailers in line with EU Directive, Jun 2005

Asylum laws – Misunderstanding between EU and UN asylum laws, Feb 2000

Aviation – ‘Open Skies’ treaty threatens fight agains global warming, Feb 2006

B

Baby rattles – EC to ban noisy toys, Jan 1996

Bagpipes – EU safety directives to ban playgrounds, trapeze artists and bagpipes, Aug 2005

Bagpipes, noise levels – Bagpipes to be quietened by an edict from Brussels, Apr 2008

Bailout – EU demanding £6bn from Britain for a new bailout, Sep 2013

Bailout, emergency funding – UK called upon to provide more emergency funding, Jun 2016

Balloons – EU bans children from blowing up balloons, Oct 2011

Bananas – Curved or small bananas to be banned by Brussels, Sep 1994

Bananas – Curved bananas, Mar 1998

Bananas, funding – £3billion for bananas, Feb 2013

Bank accounts, ID requirements when opening – Children to be prevented from opening bank accounts due to ID laws, Apr 1995

Barmaids – EU health directive to prevent barmaids from showing cleavage, Nov 2005

Barometers – Preassure rises on Britain’s barometer makers, Mar 2006

Barrister’s wigs – Traditional barrister’s wig to be scrapped, Apr 2002

Beaches, Bathing water – EU to ban our beaches, April 2014

Bed & Breakfasts, dogs in – Rules on whether dogs may be allowed in B&B kitchens or not, Mar 2006

Beer, ale – Light ale gets a name change, May 2005

Bells, church – EU law bans church bells, Oct 2002

Benefits, free movement, residency, NHS – EU rights to reside in another member state, EU benefit claimants and NHS treatment entitlement, Feb 2013

Benefit tourism, migration – 600,000 unemployed EU migrants in the UK, October 2013

Bin collection fees – EU to introduce tax on recycling, Feb 2016

Binge drinking – EU wants binge tax on our beer, Feb 2006

Bingo, phrases used – EU wants to ban bingo callers from using phrases like “two fat ladies”, Dec 2009

Black boxes – EU wants one in every car, Nov 2009

Birth certificates – EU to force the UK to change or abolish national birth certificates, Aug 2013

Buy one, get one free – 2-for-1 bargains to be banned, Sep 1999

Bombay mix – Bombay mix to be renamed Mumbai mix, Jul 2006

Bones – Butchers cannot give a dog a bone, May 2004

Books, standardisation of prices – Britain’s book export trade to be damaged by new price standardisations, May 1993

Books, VAT – UK government forced to abolish zero rate VAT on books and newspapers, Mar 1993

Booze – EU ‘bans boozing’, Feb 2005

Bottles and squeeze tubes, food outlets – Condiments must be offered in sachets, Apr 1993

Brainwashing , EU propaganda– EU brainwashing children, Jan 2012

Brandy butter – Traditional brandy butter to be banned, Jun 1998

Bread, size – British loaf of bread under threat from EU, Oct 1997

Breakfast, fry-ups – Traditional trucker’s fry-ups to be banned, Sep 2001

British meat – EU wants to ban Union flag from British meat packs, Sep 2013

Broadband speeds, red tape – EU red tape force down broadband speeds, May 2016

Broadcasting, licence fees – EC planning to ban license fees as “state aids”, Sep 1994

Budget airlines, EU staff – EU officials banned from flying Ryanair, Mar 2012

Budget, EU – £19.4 billion “black hole” in the EU budget, Jun 2016

Buildings, indoor air pollution research – EU trying to quantify smell of British workers, Sep 1996

Bull bars – EU halting British move to ban bull bars, Apr 1995

Bulldogs – EU seeks to outlaw 60 dog breeds, Jul 1995

Bullfighting – British taxpayers subsidising bullfighting, Nov 2014

Bus drivers – Driven crazy by barmy bus driver Brussels ruling, Jan 1999

Buses, double-decker – EU safety rules will dispose of London double-decker, Jan 1995

Buses, double-decker – Double-decker buses to be banned, Apr 1998

Buses, journeys – Passengers to pay a second fare for journeys over 30 miles, Jan 1999

Buses, passengers on ‘closed door tours’ – EC regulations forbid the carrying of British passengers, Nov 1992

Buses, seat belts – Britain powerless to introduce new seat belt laws without backing from the EC, Nov 1993

Business, red tape – UK businesses strangled by EU red tape, Oct 2013

Business, tax – EU tax bombshell that could cost businesses £48bn a year, Oct 2015

Butchers (see also Meat products) – EC closes butchers shops, Nov 1992

C

Cakes – EU bans eating competition cakes, Aug 2008

Cancer treatment – “EU red tape” is denying cancer patients access to new treatments, Jun 2016

Candles – EU wants to control your candles, Dec 2015

Cannons – 21-gun salutes to be muffled, Mar 2006

Car boot sales – Brussels threatens charity shops and car boot sales, Oct 2000

Cars, green – Millions wasted on green cars, Jul 2016

Cars, number plates – British car number plates to be axed by EU, April 2014

Cars, vintage – Vintage cars to be forcibly removed from the road, Jun 1999

Cars, washing – EC to demand petrol interceptors in drains or ban car washing, Nov 1993

Casinos, ID requirements – ID required at casinos, Apr 1995

Census – EU asks women about their sex lives, Nov 2007

Chalet girls – Chalet girls to face extinction from foreign employment directive, Nov 1994

Charity shops – Brussels threatens charity shops and car boot sales, Oct 2000

Charity shops, toys – Charity shops banned from selling second hand toys, Nov 1992

Cheese, British – British cheese face extinction, May 1999

Cheese, Caerphilly – Caerphilly cheese production halted due to EU rules, Apr 1995

Cheese, listeria in – EC rules on levels of listeria threaten British cheeses, Feb 1995

Cheese, mozzarella – EU calling for Italians to produce mozzarella using powdered milk, July 2015

Cheese, serving temperature – EC moves to ban Ploughman’s sandwiches with new cheese temperature regulations, Jun 1993

Cheese, soft cheese – Milk-based product directive to outlaw soft cheeses, Nov 1992

Child labour – EU meddlers ban kids on milk rounds, Aug 1998

Chinese toys – Chinese toy imports are to be banned unless humanlike in form, Jul 1994

Chips, prices – Potato prices set to soar due to bad crop and EU rules, Jan 1995

Chocolate – Chocolote or ‘vegelate’, Apr 1998

Christmas, costumes – Mother Christmas outfits are the result of sex discrimination laws, Oct 2001

Christmas puddings, Royal Navy – EU bans wooden oars for stirring the Christmas Pudding, Nov 1992

Christmas trees – EC to promote standardised Christmas trees, Nov 1992

Church, bells – Village church bells silenced by EU, Oct 2002

Church, VAT – EU to may churches pay full VAT, Sep 2003

Cigars, health warning and pub sales – Sales of cigars to fall due to be sold individually with a health warning, Jan 1994

Cinema, independent film – EU threat to British film industry, Feb 2015

Circus artists, Africa – EU funding for African acrobats and trapeze artists, July 2015

Circuses – Circus performers required to wear hard hats, Jul 2003

Circuses – EU safety directives to ban playgrounds, trapeze artists and bagpipes, Aug 2005

Climbers, height – Mountains must display height warning signs for climbers, Mar 2004

Climbers, safety wedges – Brussels bans climbers’ safety wedges, Feb 1995

Climbers, safety wedges – Brussels to take the fun out of climbing, Jul 1995

Clothing, designer – UK supermarkets banned from issuing sales on designer clothes, Aug 1998

Clothing, kilts – Kilts to be classified as women’s wear, November 2003

Clothing, women’s sizes – Women’s clothes sizes to get bigger due to standardisation, April 2002

Clothing, zips – EU plans to ban zipper trousers, May 1999

Clotted cream – Cornish clotted cream to be made in Brittany, Mar 1998

Coaches, seat belts – Britain powerless to introduce new seat belt laws without backing from the EC, Nov 1993

Coaches, to replace buses – EU safety rules will dispose of London double-decker, Jan 1995

Cockles – Scores of foreign boats to invade Essex coast – Nov 1992

Cockles – Cockle traders to be forced to buy expensive steaming equipment, Feb 1993

Cod – Cod no longer to be called cod thanks to EU, Sep 2001

Coffee – EU wants to ban coffee machines, April 2014

Coffee – EU wants to restrict your coffee drinking, May 2015

Coffins – EC to standardise coffins sizes, Feb 1993

Combine harvesters – “Ludicrous” EU regulation bans using combine harvesters in the wet, Oct 2008

Commission, building – EC to build £900 million tower for staff, Mar 1993

Commission, hot-air balloons – Commission wasting hundreds of thousands on hot-air balloons, Nov 1992

Commission, library – EC library to cost £2,138 for every book borrowed, Feb 2005

Commission, pensions – EU staff retire early with huge pensions, Aug 2005

Commission, staff pay and tax – EC employees are over-paid and do not pay tax, Mar 1993

Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) – CAP spending and fraud out of control, Aug 1993

Common Agricultural Policy (CAP), rapeseed – EU responsible for your hay fever, May 2015

Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) – CAP subsidies to large landowners, Sep 2016

Common Fisheries Policy – Common Fisheries Policy is illegal under British law, Jan 1993

Common Fisheries Policy, seabed – EU plot to seize control of our seabed, Feb 2013

Competition prizes – Plan to cap prizes, Mar 2003

Condiments – Condiments must be offered in sachets, Apr 1993

Condoms – Condom dimensions to be harmonised, Mar 2000

Condoms, for fishermen – Fishing boats obliged to carry condoms, Nov 1992

Condoms, testing of – EU to push for standard condom size, Oct 1994

Congestion charges – UK motorists should pay congestion charge to drive in every town, Feb 2016

Consumer protection, dangerous products – UK to be invaded by poor quality products, Jan 1993

Copyright – EU vote could curb taping of music and TV programmes , Feb 1999

Copyright, tourist photography – EU banning tourist photos of the London Eye, June 2015

Copyright, video recordings – Copyright Tax to be levied on all home VCR recordings, Mar 2000

Corgis – Corgis to be banned by EU, Apr 2002

Cornish pasties – TTIP will allow Cornish pasties to be “made in America”, Sep 2015

Corporal punishment – EU Court may ban smacking, Jun 1998

Corporations, tax – EU plots to tax Britain, May 2015

Corpses – EU plans to liquify corpses and pour them down the drain, July 2010

Cosmetics and personal care products – Row over Latin labels, May 1999

Cotton – EU plans for cotton duty ‘will cost jobs’, Jun 1998

Country of origin – Bags made in the UK from leather made in Italy will no longer be able to use a “Made in Britain” tag, Aug 2013

Country-specific recommendations, economic policy, – EU tells PM to tear up economic policy, June 2014

Court of Auditors report – EU accounts not signed off…again, Nov 2013

Cow gut violin strings – EU bans cow gut violin strings, Nov 2011

Cows, nappies – EU is forcing cows to wear nappies, Oct 2014

Corporate credit cards, expenses – EU officials spends £85 million on specially issued credit cards, August 2015

Crayons, lead, toys – Eurocrats are clamping down on colouring pencils (Jan, 2017)

Credit card payments, transaction fees – Millions of Britons will lose credit card perks because of EU, Apr 2015

Cricket teas – Traditional cricket teas will be subjected to random hygiene checks, Apr 1993

Crime, victims – EU favours criminals over victims, Mar 2012

Crisps, prawn cocktail – EC to ban prawn cocktail crisps, Jan 1993

Crisps, smoky bacon – Smoky bacon crisps to be banned, May 2003

Crockery, dinner service – EU “embassies” spending millions on crockery, July 2015

Cucumbers – EC to ban curved cucumbers, May 1993

Cucumbers – Cucumbers must be straight, Mar 1998

Cucumbers – Quality standards ban curved cucumbers and certain apples, Jun 1993

Curriculum – Brussels to develop Europe-wide school curriculum, Aug 2000

Curriculum Vitae (CV) – Euro CV to create more discrimination, Feb 2002

D

Darts, to be banned in pubs – Commission plans to outlaws darts in pubs, Jun 1993

Data protection, and journalism – Data protection laws to “kill-off” investigative journalism, Oct 1993

Dentistry – EU outlaws teeth whitening products, Feb 2003

Dentists, doctors – EU blocking vital checks on doctors’ qualifications, Apr 2016

Designer goods – On Sale: The designer bargains Brussels banned, Aug 1998

Devolution – Devolution is an EU scam, Dec 1998

Digital products, VAT rules – Brussels making life impossible for small online businesses, Apr 2015

Diplomatic immunity – EU workers immune from law, Mar 2005

Dinner service, crockery – EU “embassies” spending millions on crockery, July 2015

DIY – EU rules ban the DIY electricians, Nov 2004

Doctors – EU doctors in UK a threat to patients, Sep 2016

Doctors, dentists – EU blocking vital checks on doctors’ qualifications, Apr 2016

Doctors, language skills – UK hospital have to employ people who do not speak English, Apr 2012

Doctors and GPs, training – Hundreds of GPs to be forced to acquire additional qualifications, Sep 1994

Doctors and GPs, working hours – 58 hour working week will ground hospitals to a halt, Aug 2004

Doctors and GPs, working hours – UK doctors unable to treat off shore patients at night, Feb 1999

Dogs, breeding – EU seeks to outlaw 60 dog breeds, Jul 1995

Dogs, breeding – Queen’s corgis to be outlawed, Apr 2002

Dogs, dog bones – Giving a dog a bone is to be banned, May 2004

Domain names – All “.co.uk” domain names to replaced with “.eu”, Feb 2000

Double-decker buses – EU safety rules will dispose of London double-decker, Jan 1995

Double-decker buses – Double-decker buses to be banned, Apr 1998

Drink-driving limits – EU to cut drink-driving limits, Jan 2001

Driving, congestion charges – UK motorists should pay congestion charge to drive in every town, Feb 2016

Driving, fines, speeding tickets – EU to fine British drivers , Jan 2017

Driving licences, HGV drivers – HGV drivers not permitted to wear glasses, Feb 1996

Dumping, fridges – EU environmental plans lead to thousands of dumped fridges, Nov 2004

E

Eco-labels, toilets – EU wants to regulate toilets, Oct 2013

Economat – Officials shop tax-free in exclusive Brussels supermarket, Sep 1999

Economic policy, Country-specific recommendations – EU tells PM to tear up economic policy, June 2014

Eggs – New eggs cannot be called eggs, Aug 2000

Eggs, sold by the dozen – EU plans to ban the sale of eggs by the dozen, Jun 2010

Eggs – EU orders eggs to be stamped with home address, Feb 2003

Elections – EU may force UK to give criminals vote, Feb 2006

Electrical goods, voltage – EU voltage harmonisation plan threatens British appliances, Feb 1995

Electric blankets – Regulators to set maximum heat of electric blankets, leaving pensioners cold, Oct 1993

Electric plugs – UK to be forced to adopt continental two pin plug, Jun 1994

E-mark – 999 services safe from EU interference, Oct 2001

Emergency number – Britain to phase out 999 emergency number, Jan 2000

Emissions, sulphur, shipping – EU fuel diktat could slap £50 on your ferry ticket, Dec 2014

Emissions trading scheme – EU green levy will add £130 to the cost of a family holiday, Jan 2012

Energy efficiency, Sunday roasts – EU is targeting the Sunday roast, Jan 2015

English Channel – English Channel to be re-named ‘Anglo-French Pond’, Apr 2010

Environment – ‘Open Skies’ treaty threatens fight agains global warming, Feb 2006

EU accounts, Court of Auditors report – EU accounts not signed off…again, Nov 2013

EU budget, UK contribution – Brussels demands extra £500m from UK taxpayers, May 2014

EU budget, UK contribution – Massive increase in UK contribution, Nov 2014

EU budget – £19.4 billion “black hole” in the EU budget, Jun 2016

EU cost – Britain’s payments to Brussels rises by £500m, Aug 2009

EU flag – Brussels forces Government department to fly EU flag, June 2012

EU flag – UK authorities forced to fly EU flag, Jan 2014

EU flag sports teams – EU stipulates that sports teams should wear the EU flag, Nov 2011

EURES, job mobility – EU pays jobless migrants to come to Britain, August 2015

Euro see Single Currency

European Arrest Warrent – UK opt-in is an EU power-grab, July 2014

European Commission President – EC President has the sole right to promulgate EU-wide legislation, July 2014

European Rapid Reaction Force – EU launches its own army, Nov 2000

Exams – EU to scrap British exams, Jan 2000

Expenses, corporate credit cards – EU officials spends £85 million on specially issued credit cards, August 2015

Excavated earth – Excavated earth to become waste, March 1995

Eye tests, for HGV drivers – HGV drivers not permitted to wear glasses, February 1996

F

Farming, organic, homeopathy – Organic farmers ordered by EU to use homeopathic medicine, Apr 2015

Farms, toys – Farmers forced to issue pigs with toys, Jan 2003

Farms, tractors – Tractors to be banned from soggy fields, Jan 2005

Fines, driving, speeding tickets – EU to fine British drivers , Jan 2017

Firearms, sale of – Britain to be flooded with cheap weapons thanks to the single market, Jan 1993

Fire doors, required when working from home – Self-employed home-workers must equip their houses with fire doors, Jun 1993

Fire exit signs – Running battle over fire exit rules, Dec 1998

Firemen, fireman’s pole – Fireman’s pole to be axed by European law, Jun 2002

Firemen, uniforms – New uniforms for firemen, Nov 1992

Fire protection, furniture – Will the single market ban foam-filled furniture?, Jan 1993

Fireworks – EC to weaken firework safety standards, Oct 1993

Fisheries, Common Fisheries Policy – Common Fisheries Policy is illegal under British law, Jan 1993

Fishermen, hairnets – Commission to force fishermen to wear hair-nets, Oct 1992

Fishing boats, condom supplies – Fishing boats obliged to carry condoms, Nov 1992

Fishing boats, medical kits – Small inshore fishing boats to be forced to carry extensive medical kits, Dec 1994

Fishing boats, secret holds and quotas – UK fish quota being stolen aided by “conspicuous” lack of inspectors, Jul 1993

Fish, labelling – EU to force retailers to call fish by their Latin names, Sep 2001

Fish processing, smells – EC Directive orders “fishy smell” to be contained, Jan 1994

Flag, EU flag – UK authorities forced to fly EU flag, Jan 2014

Floods – EU to blame for floods, Jan 2016

Flushing, toilets, eco-labels – EU wants to regulate toilets, Oct 2013

Food, Allergen rules – UK diners will face £200m for EU allergen rules, Nov 2014

Food, ingredients – Home-made cakes must be labelled with all ingredients, Jul 2004

Food, ingredients – Women’s Institute home-made produce requires full list of ingredients, Jun 2005

Food hygiene, cricket teas – Traditional cricket teas will be subjected to random hygiene checks, Apr 1993

Food, meat – Local meat products under threat from new EC Health Directives, Jan 1993

Food, rare meat in restaurants – Rare meat to be banned due to “too much bacteria”, Sep 1993

Food, street vendors – Street vendors face closure due to an EC food hygiene Directive, Nov 1992

Food products, tin cans – Queries over tin can standardisation, Mar 1993

Foodstuffs, colours for – Commission outlaws dyes which give haddocks their distinctive golden hue, Jan 1993

Foodstuffs, condiments in sachets – Condiments must be offered in sachets, Apr 1993

Food supplements – EC to stop UK citizens taking extra strong multi-vitamin pills, Feb 1993

Food waste, for swans, charities etc. – Feeding swans and homeless people to require license, Feb 1994

Football matches, noise – Noise regulations to require club, pub and football goers to wear earplugs, Mar 2002

Free movement, residency, benefits, NHS – EU rights to reside in another member state, EU benefit claimants and NHS treatment entitlement, Feb 2013

Fridges, temperature – Barmy EU colder fridges’ order will cost us £100m, Dec 2011

Fridges, dumping – EU environmental plans lead to thousands of dumped fridges, Nov 2004

Fruit and vegetables (see also Apples; Bananas; Cucumbers; Leeks; Mushy peas; Nectarines; Peaches; Rhubarb; Strawberries), quality standards – Quality standards ban curved cucumbers and certain apples, Jun 1993

Funerals – Traditional Irish funerals under threat, Apr 2006

Furniture, foam-filled (fire protection) – Will the single market ban foam-filled furniture?, Jan 1993

G

Gambling venues, ID requirements – ID required at casinos, Apr 1995

Game birds, emtryl – EC rules will ruin rearers of game birds, Jan 1996

Game birds – Farmers to be encouraged to mow land early resulting in “massacre” of game, May 1993

Game birds, wild game meat – Hunters to be required to carry a fridge and be accompanied by a vet, Jan 1993

Gardening, plants – EU wants to ban sale of British plants, Sep 2013

Gin, round vs. square bottles – Gin to be sold in round bottles for the Single Market, Oct 1993

Global warming – ‘Open skies’ treaty threatens fight against global warming, Feb 2006

Gold – British hallmark for silver and gold to be replaced, March 1993

GPs see Doctors and GPs

Grimsby, fishy smell – EC Directive orders “fishy smell” to be contained, Jan 1994

Guns, museums – EU to force museums to destroy gun collections, Dec 2015

H

Habeas Corpus – EU set to abandon habeas corpus, Nov 1998

Haddock, dye for – Commission outlaws dyes which give haddocks their distinctive golden hue, Jan 1993

Hairdressers, safety at work – EU bans high heels for salon staff, Apr 2012

Hairnets, fishermen – Commission to force fishermen to wear hair-nets, Oct 1992

Hallmarks – Hallmarks on jewellery, Mar 1998

Hallmarks – British hallmark for silver and gold to be replaced, Mar 1993

Hallmarks – “Made in Britain” label to be scrapped, Nov 2003

Hard hats – Circus performers must wear hard hats, Jul 2003

Hay fever, rapeseed – EU responsible for your hay fever, May 2015

Hedgerows – Brussels to tear up hedgerows, Mar 2000

Herbal cures – Brussels to ban herbal cures, Mar 1999

Herbal medicines – License to be required to sell herbal medicines, Oct 1994

Herbal medicines – Update on whether license to be required to sell herbal medicines, Nov 1994

HGV drivers, driving licences and eye tests – HGV drivers not permitted to wear glasses, Feb 1996

HGV rules – Barmy EU rule which forces mechanics to carry out specialist driving training is to be scrapped, Aug 2013

HGV training rules – Christmas deliveries put at risk by EU, Dec 2014

History, teaching of – History programmes to be more euro-centric, Jul 1999

Holidays, package tours – Package tour firms may only be paid once customers have returned home, Nov 1993

Home-made produce, ingredients – Women’s Institute home-made produce requires full list of ingredients, Jun 2005

Homeopathy, organic farming – Organic farmers ordered by EU to use homeopathic medicine, Apr 2015

Home working, fire doors required – Self-employed home-workers must equip their houses with fire doors, Jun 1993

Horses, veterinary products – Horses to no longer receive medicine that would make them unsafe for consumption, Jan 1994

Hot-air balloons – Commission wasting hundreds of thousands on hot air balloons, Nov 1992

I

ID, European ID – European identity cards to be required by all EU citizens, Sep 1999

ID, required for gambling venues – ID required at casinos, Apr 1995

ID, requirements for opening bank accounts – Children to be prevented from opening bank accounts due to ID laws, Apr 1995

Immunity, Diplomatic – EU workers immune from law, Mar 2005

Imperial measurements, pounds and ounces – EU bans punds and ounces, Sep 2016

Independent cinema, film – EU threat to British film industry, Feb 2015

Island, definition of – Bureaucrats declare Britain is “not an island”, Jan 2003

J

Jam jars – Reusing jars for homemade jams for sale at charity events, Oct 2012

Jam, sugar content – EU wants to cut minimum sugar content in jam, Nov, 2013

Jets, low-flying – MOD to be forced to pay compensation for military jet noise pollution, Dec 1995

Job mobility, EURES – EU pays jobless migrants to come to Britain, August 2015

Journalism, and data protection – Data protection laws to “kill-off” investigative journalism, Oct 1993

Justice (see also European Court of Human Rights)

Justice, habeas corpus – EU set to abandon habeas corpus. Nov 1998

Justice, sentencing – EU to scrap life sentence, Oct 2004

Justice, wigs – Traditional barristers wig to be scrapped, Apr 2002

K

Kent, county of – Kent now part of France, Sep 2006

Kettles, toasters – EU to regulate your kettles and toasters, May 2016

Kilts – Kilts to be classified as women’s wear, Nov 2003

L

Labelling – Row over Latin labels, May 1999

Lamp posts – EC to replace traditional street lamps, Jun 1993

Landfills, recycling targets – EU steps up recycling targets to eliminate landfills, July 2014

Lawnmowers – Brussels targeting lawnmowers, Sep 2014

Language skills, doctors – UK hospitals have to employ people who do not speak English, Apr 2012

Lead, toys, crayons – Eurocrats are clamping down on colouring pencils (Jan, 2017)

Leeks – Leek sizes to be standardised by EU, Mar 2002

Library, Commission – EC library to cost £2,138 for every book borrowed, Feb 2005

Licence fees, broadcasting – EC planning to ban license fees as “state aids”, Sep 1994

Licence plates, motor vehicles – Commission to push for euro-wide licence plate, Oct 1994

License plates – Brussels to ban British emblems on licence plates, Aug 1999

Life sentencing – EU to scrap life sentence, Oct 2004

Light ale – What’s in a name, May 2005

Light bulbs – Light bulbs lose wattage marking, May 2009

Listeria – Hysteria about listeria, Feb 1995

Lollipop ladies – EU to ban lollipop ladies’ sticks, Jul 1999

Lollipop signs – Lollipop signs to receive European wide harmonised design, Jun 1995

Lorries – New EU rules will wipe out 17,000 lorry firms, Jun 1998

M

Made in Britain – Bags made in the UK from leather made in Italy will no longer be able to use a “Made in Britain” tag, Aug 2013

Maps – No EU plans to abolish Britain!, Apr 2008

Maps – Kent now part of France, Sep 2006

Maps, UK – EU redraws map of the UK, Apr 1999

Maps – Bureaucrats declare Britain is “not an island”, Jan 2003

Maps, London – Trafalgar Square and Waterloo station to be renamed, Oct 2003

Markets, Nottingham – EU rules restricting market stalls from having tills, May 2016

Meat, British, Union flag – EU wants to ban Union flag from British meat packs, Sep 2013

Meat, pork chops – Pork chops can no longer be sold with kidneys, Feb 1993

Meat, rare, in restaurants – Rare meat to be banned due to “too much bacteria”, Sep 1993

Meat products, hygiene standards – Local meat products under threat from new EC Health Directives, Jan 1993

Media, control, regulation – Brussels wants to control media regulators, Jan 2013

Medical devices – European Commission approve unsafe high-risk medical devices, Jul 2016

Medical kits, for fishing boats – Small inshore fishing boats to be forced to carry extensive medical kits, Dec 1994

Medicines (see also Veterinary products)

Medicines, herbal – License to be required to sell herbal medicines, Oct 1994

Medicines, herbal – Update on whether license to be required to sell herbal medicines, Nov 1994

Medicines, labelling – Medicines to receive Latin labelling, May 1999

Medicines, use of human medicines on animals – Human medicines to be forbidden for use on animals, Feb/Mar 1995

Metrication – Brussels drive to rob us of British identity, June 2010

Metrication – EU imposes metric measurements on UK, Jan 2001

Metrication – Pinta and loaf packaging under threat, Jan 2006

Metrication, acres – Acres are outlawed by Brussels, Jul 2008

Metrication, sale of mixed drink pints – EU to ban sales of mixed drink pints in pubs, Nov 1994

Metrication, weighing instruments – Delicacies must be sold in quantities over one and a quarter pounds, Feb 1995

Metrication, wine sales – Wine must be served in government stamped glasses by standard quantities, Dec 1994

Migration – Outrage as EU stitch Brits up over migrants, Jun 2003

Migration, benefits – Brussels grabbing UK welfare, 2012

Migration, benefit tourism – 600,000 unemployed EU migrants in the UK, October 2013

Migration, tax avoidance – EU migrants can avoid tax in the UK, Jan 2014

Military, army vehicles – Army to be forced to upgrade trailers in line with EU Directive, Jun 2005

Milk, bottles – EU to ban glass milk bottles, Jul 2001

Milk, butter – Traditional brandy butter to be banned, Jun 1998

Milk, doorstep pint – Open air floats and glass bottles to face ban under hygiene laws, Mar 1993

Milk, jugs – Euro meddlers rule we can’t have milk jugs, Feb 2010

Milk, milk-rounds – Children will be banned from milk-rounds due to EU directive, Aug 1998

Milk, soya – Soya milk indistinguishable from cow milk and thus to be banned, April 1995

Milk, yoghurt – EU plans to rename yogurt, Nov 2003

Milk of Magnesia – EU to ban Milk of Magnesia, Jul 2013

Mince pies – EU to rename mince pies, Oct 2002

Model railways – Model railways under threat from EU, May 2002

Money laundering – Children to be prevented from opening bank accounts due to ID laws, Apr 1995

Money laundering – ID required at casinos, Apr 1995

Monuments, photography – EU banning tourist photos of the London Eye, June 2015

Mother Christmas outfits – Politically correct Eurocrats say Santa must be a woman, Oct 2001

Motor vehicles, bull bars – EU halting British move to ban bull bars, Apr 1995

Motor vehicles, car washing – EC to demand petrol interceptors in drains or ban car washing, Nov 1993

Motor vehicles, licence plates – Commission to push for euro-wide licence plate, Oct 1994

Motor vehicles, MOT tests – British MOT tests to be made less stringent, Apr 1994

Motor vehicles, trailers – Army to be forced to upgrade trailers in line with EU Directive, Jun 2005

Motorway parapets – Councils required to upgrade motorway parapets, Feb 1994

Mountaineering see Climbers; Rescue services

Mountains, signs – “High up” signs to be put on mountains, Mar 2004

Mozzarella, cheese – EU calling for Italians to produce mozzarella using powdered milk, July 2015

MPs, Roma – EU could impose quotas of Roma MPs in the UK, Sep 2013

Murderers, release dates – Compulsory release dates for murderers, Mar 1994

Mushy peas – Commission to outlaw mushy peas, Aug 1995

Mushrooms – EU rule may cut mushroom jobs, Aug 1998

Mussels – Shellfish must be given rest breaks whilst on journeys, Jan 1996

Mustard, French – EU axes French mustard, Apr 2001

N

News channel, Euro – European news network and soap opera authorised by EC, Jun 1993

Newspaper delivery, by young people – Young people forced to give up paper rounds, Nov 1992

Newspapers, VAT – UK government forced to abolish zero rate VAT in books and newspapers, Mar 1993

NHS, benefits, free movement, residency – EU rights to reside in another member state, EU benefit claimants and NHS treatment entitlement, Feb 2013

Noise pollution, bagpipes – EU safety directives to ban playgrounds, trapeze artists and bagpipes, Aug 2005

Noise pollution, bagpipes – Bagpipes to be quietened by an edict from Brussels, Apr 2008

Noise pollution, Cannons – 21-gun salutes to be muffled, Mar 2006

Noise pollution, church bells – Village church bells silenced by EU, Oct 2002

Noise pollution, low-flying jets – MOD to be forced to pay compensation for military jet noise pollution, Dec 1995

Noise pollution, night clubs and pubs – Noise regulations to require club, pub and football goers to wear earplugs, Mar 2002

Noise pollution, toys – EC to ban noisy toys, Jan 1996

Nottingham, Sneiton Market – EU rules restricting market stalls from having tills, May 2016

Noise pollution, earmuffs at work – EU to enforce earmuff ruling, Jan 2002

Number plates – Brussels imposes EU flag on car number plates, Aug 1998

Number plates – British car number plates to be axed by EU, April 2014

Nurses, traditional belts and buckles – Nurses uniform to be dictated by Brussels, Oct 1996

O

Oak trees – EU to prevent the sale of English oak seeds, Nov 1994

Organic farming, homeopathy – Organic farmers ordered by EU to use homeopathic medicine, Apr 2015

Off-licenses – EU to ban British off-licenses, Feb 2005

Oil – EU to seize UK oil stock, May 2003

Olympics – EU funds Athens Olympics rescue, Apr 2004

Origin marking – “Made in Britain” labels to be axed, Jan 2004

Ovens, wood burning – Brussels to ban wood burning ovens, Dec 1999

P

Package tours, passenger transport – EC regulations forbid the carrying of British passengers, Nov 1992

Packaging – Pinta and loaf packing under threat from EU, Jan 2006

Packaging, British meat – EU wants to ban Union flag from British meat packs, Sep 2013

Paddling pools – Paddling pools deeper than 12 inches must have full-time lifeguard, Jan 1993

Passports – European passport will replace national passports, Oct 2000

Passports – Her Majesty to be removed from UK passports, Sep 2007

Pasta – Fresh pasta banned, Apr 2002

Peaches – Eurocrats to ban small fruits, Jul 2001

Peas, mushy – Commission to outlaw mushy peas, Aug 1995

Pensions – Eurocrat pensioners dodge taxes, July 2012

Pensions, final salary scheme – EU will force the closure of final salary pensions chemes, Feb 2012

Perfume – EU threatens future of Chanel and Dior perfumes, May 2014

Peru, drugs – Taxpayers money used to rehabilitate Peruvian drug addicts, Jul 2014

Petrol prices – EU behind 3p a litre petrol price hike, July 2014

Petrol stations, control of petrol storage emissions – Hundreds of small petrol stations to be forced to meet new Vapour regulations, Feb 1993

Petrol stations, use of jerrycans – EC legislation forbids the use of jerrycans on garage forecourts, Apr 1993

Pets, dead – Dead pets must be pressure cooked before burial, Mar 2000

Phones, poll tax (see also Telephone enquiries)

Phone tax – Commission to tax every phone line £30, Sep 2000

Photography, tourism – EU banning tourist photos of the London Eye, June 2015

Pies, mince – EU to rename mince pies, Oct 2002

Pigs, toys – Farmers forced to issue pigs with toys, Jan 2003

Pine trees, rosin – Rosin to be banned from use in products, Apr 1995

Pints, legality of sale in pubs – EU to ban sales of mixed drink pints in pubs, Nov 1994

Pizza ovens – Wood burning ovens to be banned, Dec 1999

Pizza, sizes – EU to regulate pizza sizes, Oct 1994

Place names – EU to rename UK place names, Oct 2003

Planes, low flying jets – MOD to be forced to pay compensation for military jet noise pollution, Dec 1995

Plants – EU money wasted on plants and wildlife, Aug 2001

Plants – EU wants to ban sale of British plants, Sep 2013

Plasma screen TVs – Banning plasma TVs, Jan 2009

Playgrounds, safety – EU safety directives to ban playgrounds, trapeze artists and bagpipes, Aug 2005

Playgrounds, safety – Safety rules force the closure of UK playgrounds, Oct 2003

Playgrounds, safety, speed limits – Speed limits to be enforced on children’s roundabouts, Oct 2004

Playgrounds, safety, swings – A village has to remove its swings due to safety rules, Jan 2003

Plugs, Euro-plugs – UK to be forced to adopt continental two pin plug, Jun 1994

Police, European – A European integrated police force to be implemented, Apr 2001

Political parties, canvassing and direct mail – Political parties to be banned from canvassing and advertising, Nov 1993

Political parties, funding – EU to fund the Labour and LibDems but not the Conservatives, Jan 2000

Poppies – Remembrance Day poppies to face VAT charge, Aug 2003

Pork chops – Pork chops can no longer be sold with kidneys, Feb 1993

Pornography – UK screens being flooded by pornography as a result of new EC directive, Jan 1993

Postcards, saucy seaside – EC to ban “sexist” saucy seaside postcards, Mar 1993

Potato prices – Potato prices set to soar due to bad crop and EU rules, Jan 1995

Pounds and ounces, imperial measurements, – EU bans punds and ounces, Sep 2016

Prams, second hand – EC to prevent the sale of second hand prams, Jan 1993

Prawn cocktail crisps – EC to ban prawn cocktail crisps, Jan 1993

Prison release dates – EU rules on compulsory release dates for murderers, Mar 1994

Prizes – EU to ban prizes over 70k on prize shows, May 2003

Promotions – 2-for1 bargains to be banned, Sep 1999

Propaganda, brainwashing – EU brainwashing children, Jan 2012

Public procurement rules – How EU rules weeded out Parliament’s loyal florist, Jul 2013

Pubs, barmaids – EU health directive to prevent barmaids from showing cleavage, Aug 2005

Pubs, darts – Commission plans to outlaws darts in Pubs, Jun 1993

Pubs, language – You’re alright, love – The EU is not banning saying ‘love’ in pubs, Mar 2008

Pubs, noise – Noise regulations to require club, pub and football goers to wear earplugs, Mar 2002

Pubs, price list display – EC planning to make British pubs display their price lists, Jul 1993

Pubs, sale of cigars – Sales of cigars to fall due to be sold individually with a health warning, Jan 1994

Pubs, sale of pints – EU to ban sales of mixed drink pints in pubs, Nov 1994

Q

The Queen, dogs – Queen’s corgis to be outlawed – Apr 2002

Queen, tea – Queen to be forced to get her own tea, Feb 1999

R

Rapeseed, hay fever – EU responsible for your hay fever, May 2015

Recycling – Sex toys must be handed in, Feb 2004

Recycling – EU regulations will force householders to use 5 bins for recycling, Aug 2013

Recycling, tax – EU to introduce tax on recycling, Feb 2016

Recycling targets, landfills – EU steps up recycling targets to eliminate landfills, July 2014

Red tape, broadband speeds, – EU red tape force down broadband speeds, May 2016

Red tape, business – UK businesses strangled by EU red tape, Oct 2013

Refugees – Misunderstanding between EU and UN asylum laws, Feb 2000

Regional governments – Veil is lifted on new order for Britain, Dec 1998

Regions, covert governance – Brussels to bypass national governments via regions, Apr 1998

Regions, map – EU redraws map of the UK, Apr 1999

Regions, map – A Europe without the UK, Apr 1999

Regions, devolution – Devolution is an EU scam, Dec 1998

Remembrance Day, poppies – Remembrance Day poppies to face VAT charge, Aug 2003

Rescue services, mountains – New procurement rules threaten rescue teams, Mar 1995

Rescue services, emergency number – Britain to phase out 999 emergency number, Jan 2000

Residency, benefits, free movement, NHS – EU rights to reside in another member state, EU benefit claimants and NHS treatment entitlement, Feb 2013

Restaurants, rare meat – Rare meat to be banned due to “too much bacteria”, Sep 1993

Rhubarb – British rhubarb must be straight, Jun 1996

Roads, motorway parapets – Councils required to upgrade motorway parapets, Feb 1994

Road safety, traffic offences abroad – European police get powers to track down British motoring offenders, May 2014

Roads, numbers – Eurocrats change traditional road numbers, Sep 2001

Rocking horses – EU to ban rocking horses, Nov 2003

Roma, MPs – EU could impose quotas of Roma MPs in the UK, Sep 2013

Roundabouts – Speed limits to be enforced on children’s roundabouts, Oct 2004

Royal Navy, Christmas puddings – EU bans wooden oars for stirring the Christmas Pudding, Nov 1992

Rubbish collections – EU regulations will force householders to use 5 bins for recycling, Aug 2013

S

Safety at work, hairdressers, – EU bans high heels for salon staff, Apr 2012

Sausage – The infamous” euro-sausage” threatens British bangers, Jun 2001

Schools, lessons abroad for pupils – European secondary school pupils to spend a “free” year abroad, Apr 1993

Scooters – 10m scooters face axe in ‘cat’ call, Oct 1998

Scotch whisky – EC interference in whisky distilleries, Nov 1992

Scotch whisky – Scotch whisky must be handled as a dangerous chemical, Nov 1995

Seat belts, on coaches and buses – Britain powerless to introduce new seat belt laws without backing from the EC, Nov 1993

Sex – EU asks women about their sex lives, Nov 2007

Sex discrimination – EU to end deals on the golf course, Oct 2001

Sex toys – Women to be forced to hand in old sex toys, Feb 2004

Shandy – Brussels ban on pints of shandy, Jan 1999

Shellfish, cockles – Scores of foreign boats to invade Essex coast, Nov 1992

Shellfish – Cockle-traders to be forced to buy expensive steaming equipment, Feb 1993

Shellfish, mussels – Shellfish must be given rest breaks whilst on journeys, Jan 1996

Shellfish, whelks – Whelks have to be stored at an EC regulated temperature, Oct 1993

Shepherds’ crooks – Carved horns to be banned, Apr 2000

Shipping, sulphur emissions – EU fuel diktat could slap £50 on your ferry ticket, Dec 2014

Shoes – EU anti-dumping measures lead to price hike, Apr 2000

Signs – “High up” signs to be put on mountains, Mar 2004

Silver (see also Hallmarks) – British hallmark for silver and gold to be replaced, Mar 1993

Silver Cross prams – EC to prevent the sale of second hand prams, Jan 1993

Single currency, health – The single currency can bring on depression, May 1999

Single currency, health – Nickel in euro coins will make you sick, Dec 2001

Single currency, health – Euro notes responsible for impotency, Mar 2002

Ski resorts, snow – EC to prevent skiing when depth of snow is less than 20 cm, Nov 1992

Slaughterhouses – EC hygiene rules force closure of abattoirs, Nov 1992

Smacking, ban of – EU Court may ban smacking, Jun 1998

Smell, research into – EU trying to quantify smell of British workers, Sep 1996

Smoking – EU ban on ciggie breaks? Just hot air, Jun 2007

Sneiton Market, Nottingham – EU rules restricting market stalls from having tills, May 2016

Soap Opera, Euro – European news network and soap opera authorised by EC, Jun 1993

Social media – EU to ban under 16-year olds from using social media, Dec 2015

Soya milk – Soya milk indistinguishable from cow milk and thus to be banned, Apr 1995

Speed control – Brussels to impose speed controls, Sep 2013

Speeding tickets, fines, driving, – EU to fine British drivers , Jan 2017

Staff, pay and tax of EU civil servants – EC employees are over-paid and do not pay tax, March 1993

Staff, pensions – EU staff retire early with huge pensions, Aug 2005

Statistics, collection of intra-Community trade – Collection of intra-EC trade statistics to fall on businesses, Jan 1993

Steam trains, drivers – New safety legislation prevents drivers from operating steam trains, Jul 1994

Steam trains, miniature – Directive will ban boilers for miniature locomotives, May 2002

Strawberries – Strawberries must be oval, Mar 1998

Street lighting, brightness – EU regulations require brighter street lighting, Jan 1995

Street lighting, lamp posts – EC to replace traditional street lamps, Jun 1993

Street vendors, food hygiene – Street vendors face closure due to an EC food hygiene Directive, Nov 1992

Students, lessons abroad for – European secondary school pupils to spend a “free” year abroad, Apr 1993

Subsidiarity, prize for definition of – President of EC offers prize for definition of the term “subsidiarity”, Oct 1993

Sugar content, jam – EU wants to cut minimum sugar content in jam, Nov, 2013

Sugar quotas – Perverse lifting of sugar quotas by the EU, July 2014

Sulphur, emissions from shipping – EU fuel diktat could slap £50 on your ferry ticket, Dec 2014

Sunday roasts, energy efficiency – EU is targeting the Sunday roast, Jan 2015

Suntans, barmaids – EU health directive to prevent barmaids from showing cleavage, Nov 2005

Suntan, Commissioner – EU to get a “Suntan Commissioner”, Jun 2005

Sweets, advertising – Swedish Presidency will force a ban on sweet and toy ads, Feb 1999

Sweets, unwrapped – Brussels to forbid unwrapped sweets, Aug 1993

Swimming pools, safety standards – Paddling pools deeper than 12 inches must have full-time lifeguard, Jan 1993

Swings – A village has to remove its swings due to safety rules, Jan 2003

T

Tax avoidance, migration – EU migrants can avoid tax in the UK, Jan 2014

Tax harmonisation, sovereignty – Tax harmonisation programme will remove all tax powers from member states, Nov 1998

Tax harmonisation, Germanophobia – German finance ministers can abolish UK tax veto, Dec 1998

Tax, corporations – EU plots to tax Britain, May 2015

Tax, VAT – Brussels could force the UK to raise VAT rates and cause “a £2600 tax bombshell”, June 2016

Tax, phones – Brussels to tax every phone line £30, Sep 2000

Taxi services – London to face an influx of untrained taxi drivers, Jan 1993

Tea, teabags – EU to make recycling teabags illegal, Jan 2005

Tea, teasmades – Teasmades to be forbidden under new safety regulation, Feb 2002

Teeth – Now Brussels make bright smiles illegal, Feb 2003

Telephone enquiries – Commission to blame for new 118 enquiry number, Nov 2003

Thatching, banning – EU aiming to ban thatched roofs, Oct 2004

Thatching, cost – EC to make thatching uneconomical, Apr 1993

Three-crop rule, agriculture – EU tells British farmers what they can grow, Nov 2014

Theatre seats – West End to be hit by new seat rules, Feb 2000

Tin cans – Queries over tin can standardisation, Mar 1993

Toasters, kettles – EU to regulate your kettles and toasters, May 2016

Tobacco, subsidies – Brussels to reinstate tobacco subsidies, Feb 2013

Toilets – Euro-loo to replace British toilets, May 1999

Toilets – Traditional British toilet to be scrapped by Brussels, Apr 1995

Toilets, eco-labels, flushing – EU wants to regulate toilets, Oct 2013

Tourism, photography – EU banning tourist photos of the London Eye, June 2015

Toys, advertising – Swedish Presidency will force a ban on sweet and toy ads, Feb 1999

Toys, lead, crayons – Eurocrats are clamping down on colouring pencils (Jan, 2017)

Toys, imports of Chinese – Chinese toy imports are to be banned unless humanlike in form, Jul 1994

Toys, noisy – EC to ban noisy toys, Jan 1996

Toys, sale by charity shops – Charity shops banned from selling second hand toys, Mar 1993

Toys, sex – Women to be forced to hand in old sex toys, Feb 2004

Tractors – Tractors to be banned from soggy fields, Jan 2005

Tractors – Farmers given time-limit on tractor use, Oct 2002

Trade statistics, collection of intra-Community – Collection of intra-EC trade statistics to fall on businesses, Jan 1993

Trafalgar Square – Trafalgar Square and Waterloo station to be renamed, Oct 2003

Traffic offences abroad, road safety, – European police get powers to track down British motoring offenders, May 2014

Trailers – Army to be forced to upgrade trailers in line with EU Directive, Jun 2005

Transaction fees, credit card payments – Millions of Britons will lose credit card perks because of EU, Apr 2015

Trapeze artists, Africa – EU funding for African acrobats and trapeze artists, July 2015

Travel, budget airlines – EU officials banned from flying Ryanair, Mar 2012

Truckers’ fry ups – EU bans lorry drivers’ British breakfast, Sep 2001

Trees see Oaks; Pine trees

TTIP – TTIP will leave EU member states and the European Parliament further sidelined, Mar 2016

Turkeys – EC to tamper with turkeys , Dec 1992

TVs – Banning plasma TVs, Jan 2009

V

Vaccuum cleaners, energy saving – EU to ban powerful vaccuum cleaners, Jun 2013

Vaccuum cleaners – Tidying up the rules, Sep 2014

Valentine’s Day cards – Unwanted Valentine’s cards to be defined as sexual harassment, Apr 1995

VAT, books and newspapers – UK government forced to abolish zero rate VAT in books and newspapers, Mar 1993

VAT, children’s clothes – Euro tax on kids’ clothes – secret VAT stitch-up revealed, Nov 1998

VAT, church – EU to may churches pay full VAT, Sep 2003

VAT, control – British power over VAT rates to be abolished, Mar 2000

VAT rules, digital products – Brussels making life impossible for small online businesses, Apr 2015

VAT, tax – Brussels could force the UK to raise VAT rates and cause “a £2600 tax bombshell”, June 2016

Vegetables see Fruit and vegetables

Veterinary products, game birds – EC rules will ruin rearers of game birds, Jan 1996

Veterinary products, horses – Horses to no longer receive medicine that would make them unsafe for consumption, Jan 1994

Victory Day – B17 fly pass grounded by Brussels, May 2005

Video recording and copyright – Copyright Tax to be levied on all home VCR recordings, Mar 2000

Vitamin supplements – EC to stop UK citizens taking extra strong multi-vitamin pills, Feb 1993

Violin strings, cow guts – EU bans cow gut violin strings, Nov 2011

Vitamin supplements – EU to ban vitamin supplements, Mar 2002

Vocational training – EU gives £1m to train Italian TV presenter “bimbos”, Jul 2003

Voltage reduction – EU voltage harmonisation plan threatens British appliances, Feb 1995

Voting – EU may force UK to give criminals vote, Feb 2006

Vultures – EU rules blamed for vulture attacks on farm livestock, Aug 2007

W

Walnuts – Brussels rules threatens walnuts, Mar 2001

Waste disposal – EU law to create ‘Electrical mountain’, Mar 2002

Waste, excavated earth – Excavated earth to become waste, Mar 1995

Waste, food waste for swans, charities etc. – Feeding swans and homeless people to require licence, Feb 1994

Waterloo Station – Trafalgar Square and Waterloo station to be renamed, Oct 2003

Water meters – Every home to be fitted with costly water meter, Aug 2000

Wattage markings – Light bulbs lose wattage markings, May 2009

Weapons, sale of – Britain to be flooded with cheap weapons thanks to the Single Market, Jan 1993

Weighing instruments – Delicacies must be sold in quantities over one and a quarter pounds, Feb 1995

Wheat, for thatching straw (see also Thatching)

Wheat, for thatching straw – EC to make thatching uneconomical, Apr 1993

Whelks, storage temperature – Whelks have to be stored at an EC regulated temperature, Oct 1993

Whisky – EC interference in whisky distilleries, Nov 1992

Whisky – Scotch whisky must be handled as a dangerous chemical, Nov 1995

Wigs – Traditional barristers wig to be scrapped, Apr 2002

Wildlife – EU money wasted on plants and wildlife, Aug 2001

Wildlife parks, elephant symbol on signs – Universal symbol for zoos to be the image of an elephant, Jun 1993

Wine, labels, aristocratic titles on – EC to register aristocrats to check for improper labelling of wine, Oct 1993

Wine, size of glass – Wine must be served in government stamped glasses by standard quantities, Dec 1994

Women, doctors – Hundreds of GPs to be forced to acquire additional qualifications, Sep 1994

Women, saucy postcards – EC to ban “sexist” saucy seaside postcards, Mar 1993

Valentine’s Day cards – Unwanted Valentine’s cards to be defined as sexual harassment, Apr 1995

Wood burning ovens – Brussels to ban wood burning ovens, Dec 1999

Worker consultation – Bosses to be told what carpet to buy, Jan 2004

Working conditions – EU meddlers ban kids on milk rounds, Aug 1998

Working from home, fire doors – Self-employed home-workers must equip their houses with fire doors, Jun 1993

Working Time Directive, doctors – 58 hour working week will ground hospitals to a halt, Aug 2004

Working Time Directive, doctors – UK doctors unable to treat off shore patients at night, Feb 1999

Workplace, rules – Companies required to consult staff on colour of carpets and types of tea bags, Jan 2004

Y

Yoghurt – EU plans to rename yogurt, Nov 2003

Yoghurt – EU says Brit yoghurt has to be called Fermented Milk Pudding, Mar 2006

Yoghurt – £700,000 to stop yoghurt going runny, Jan 1999

Young people, milk-rounds – Children will be banned from milk-rounds due to EU directive, Aug 1998

Young people, newspaper delivery – Young people forced to give up paper rounds, Nov 1992

Youth in Action – EU youth programme called propaganda, Oct 2006

Z

Zips – EU plans to ban zipper trousers, May 1999

Zoos, elephant symbol on signs – Universal symbol for zoos to be the image of an elephant, Jun 1993

Edukator-

I was busy replying to your previous post and about 4 other posts, that's why I missed that post. When I caught up, I responded with genuine interest, with an open mind, being prepared to learn something.
Genuine question again, would you click on something if I linked to it?

Kimbers-
Thing is mate, no one's pushing to brexit (or the equivalent) from local elections are they. Thats why I called it a false equivalence.

It's not what you say but what is said, we all infer stuff from each other's posts.

Sandwich-
Yes, when I finally caught up I noticed the title in French, that didn't discount the possibility that it could be subtitled. However, I did engage in good faith, prepared to be educated, instead I got edukated.

Raybanwomble-
I don't consider hippie to be an insult. I do consider Postmodern bulls**t to fall within the category of lazy insults though.

would you click on something if I linked to it?

No idea, I'd read what is visible, hover over it to check the URL looks safe and then make a decision. That takes very few seconds to do so I'd either click or move on. A Youtube from a prominent and respected politician posted in context I'd probably click. Anything by Jordan Peterson would get ignored and the person posting it added to my mental list of Internet wierdos - unless of course they were linking to prove what a wierdo Peterson is.

Malvern rider- edukator- ray ban womble-

Scientism is a faith like 'belief' in science.

To paraphrase John Gray, who I referred to earlier, (and no, he doesn't write for the gutter press, he writes those old things caĺed books, and contributes to the New Statesman among other publications)

Some people mistake science for revelation, rather than a coded system of signs and symbols used to describe a world we don't truly understand. Science can only be an approximation of reality.

He also posits that religion can be seen as more rational than reason, in that religion recognises the falliabilty of human beings, in that we make mistakes and often go on to repeat those mistakes. Religions recognise this and offer a system to live your life by, however absurd and fantastical. Reason posits that only through rational thinking can we solve our problems, and by acting 'rationally' we can solve all of our problems and perfect humanity but doesn't take account of human falliabilty, in that despite reason providing a pathway, we still repeat the same mistakes.

He's an atheist by the way, as am I.

So I'm suggesting that collectively The way in which you believe in science, or lets say written or coded facts, ( because all language is a code) mirrors that of religion.

I also mentioned Karl Popper, whose contribution to philosophy is the idea of 'Critical Rationalism. Where he distinguishes between the universal and the falsifiable, in that we can find hundreds of examples (facts, universal) to support our position, but it only takes one piece of information to falsify that position and thus debunk it. What Malvern rider has just posted correlates to this idea. Gray points to Einstein as a good example of falsifiabillity in that he posits theories that demand to be disproved. He cites Freud and Marx as examples of the universal in that psychoanalysts will each offer different theories which, though interesting can't be disproved (falsified) like wise with Marx and political positions if events don't correlate with the theory the theoretical model will become ' adjusted'

I guess he's suggests that we get closer to the truth of things by trying to disprove a position than piling up 'facts' that support our position. That's the approach I'm trying to take here, not that I'm trying to disprove any of you, more that I'm trying to look at my own position as a remain supporter and disprove (falsify) my own 'beliefs'.

Postmodern bulls**t If you like, I'm just trying to look at things from a different perspective, after all, this a forum for discussion.

Malvern rider-

There's an aesthetic dimention to your last post, in that I doubt many will read through the entire list of facts that you have posted, (and I concede they are facts in that they have been previously published, not made up by you) To an extent you are rellying on visual effect to umderline and support the validity of your position,

It's what I mean about trying to 'sell' your position, you are using visual weight as a tool for emphasis and persuasion. In a sense it's a form of sophistry, and I don't mean that as an insult because the brexit campaign used sophistry to it's utmost extent. It's just that sadly they were better sophists than us.

I do however respect the fact that you are not blaming the press as such and recognise propaganda (sophistry) for what it is.

guess he’s suggests that we get closer to the truth of things by trying to disprove a position than piling up ‘facts’ that support our position.

Well, what we have here is (AFAIK) a situation that was very largely created by piling up untruths (lies) which have both exploited and created the same fears and mistrusts.

Poison the well and then offer the ‘cure’.

It’s what I mean about trying to ‘sell’ your position,

Interesting take.

In a sense it’s a form of sophistry

Really?

- ‘Look at all the untruths we’ve been told. And here’s a link to the rebuttals...’

- ‘Ah yes, but you are in a sense doing the same thing! By making it look bad! By listing them! By showing where they have been rebutted!’

Malvern rider-

'Poison the well and offer the cure', best analogy posted here over the last couple of days.

It's very difficult to counter propaganda and sophistry with truth ( whatever that might be). Unfortunately remain couldn't fill the well with champagne. That's why I'm trying to think about what strategy would have been useful to counter the brexit BS?

I know we lost but there will be other battles to fight and we need a new set of tools (not weapons or insults) to put forward persuasive arguments so we don't continue to get steamrollered.

Many on here talk about resisting but they're not offering anything new in terms of how we can have a positive influence. They talk a good fight but they're actually just giving up, embracing intrasigence.

I’m trying to look at my own position as a remain supporter and disprove (falsify) my own ‘beliefs’.

I suspect you'll fail so long as your reasoning is fact based, and you aren't a hedge fund manager or sweat shop operator.

Junior did some work on Brexit at Science Po Paris, I don't remember it quoting Einstein, Marx, Popper, Gray, the Pope, Freud, Peterson, or even Sartre, Vian, de Beauvoir.

I'm an agnositc who goes on a pilgrimage every year. But I don't sit on the fence on Brexit, remain isn't a leap of faith it's a reasoned, rational choice .

Gray points to Einstein as a good example of falsifiabillity in that he posits theories that demand to be disproved.

That's exactly how the scientific method works, and has worked for decades.

You talk about science and facts like they're some sort of intangible, ephemeral thing. But as Dara O'Brian once said, "science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop." Whilst it's very very difficult to prove something unequivocally, there comes a point where there's sufficient evidence in favour of something and little or no evidence against it that we can take it to be true beyond any reasonable doubt. This does not require "faith" (other than perhaps a faith in the world's leading experts over centuries to know a little more about a subject than we do). And of course, if something does come along later which breaks that belief then we reevaluate our position.

Religion on the other hand tries to provide simplistic answers to complicated questions, requires no 'proof' at all and often demands that reality bends to fit its belief system. Not unlike brexit, really.

Unfortunately remain couldn’t fill the well with champagne

I think the point/perspective I am pursuing that in the ‘game’ of partisan politics that ‘truth’ is not seen as ‘champagne’.

ie IMO ‘conviction’ is the tipple that gets the soon-to-be ‘victor’ fighting drunk. Conviction, not truth. The ‘truth’ here is ‘whatever’ most potently serves the fermentation process. Truth (here) isn’t power. Conviction is power. Truth loses.

Every ‘jury’ needs to be convinced. I now feel that ‘10 Angry Men’ reached such a powerful conclusion because it was a work of fiction. Fluffy. Idealistic. Ironic. Looking back, I don’t believe that one man concerned with truth could easily if ever (by way of truth) convince another 9 to spend another minute in each other’s sweaty company. Especially when a fast exit is so easily achieved by the raising of a hand.

‘10 Angry Men’

Is that a prequel?

Cougar-

I can't see that were saying anything different to each other?

I concur completely with your assertion that there comes a point where there is so little or no evidence against something that we take it to be true beyond reasonable doubt, whilst still holding our the possibility that some evidence might come along in the future that might lead us to re- evaluate. That's why I gave Einstein as the supreme example of the scientific method.

Ditto your somethingion of religion.

My point I guess is what's good for Einstein does not stand up for us mere mortals posting our thoughts and political theories here, nothing we say here would stand up to scrutiny in the domain of the scientific method, we all use 'facts' as weapons (sophistry)

I'm suggesting that some are trotting out facts with a conviction that is beyond-beyond reasonable doubt and are not open to any form of re-evaluation, and in that sense it adheres, or mirrors a faith based approach.

Time is the best falsified of all and we are still in the eye of the storm, so we should be a little more sceptical / circumspect with regards to our own positions no?

With regards religion, wether we think it's right or wrong surely we have to recognise that lots of people are believers and that these belief systems have endured for millenia, we have to look to negotiate that rather than counter that, as you can see I'm also positing that faith isn't a binary thing, there are degrees of faith and faith itself is embedded in our DNA, even if we are aethist or agnostic. It's a hard thing to shake and some scientist who observe the scientific method also hold on to a religious faith ( holding more than one thought in their head at the same time!)

I used the term scientism to describe those who may see themselves as rational but adhere to only the first part of the scientific method, seeing something as being beyond reasonable doubt but not allowing for possibility of any new information emerging that might cause us to reconsider, maybe seeing political arguments as beyond reasonable doubt which isn't quite the same as MC squared. As Karl Popper asserts, science and politics are not the same thing.

BUT I DEFINITELY DON'T SEE SCIENCE AND FACTS AS SOME INTANGIBLE OR EPHEMERAL THING.

Sorry for that caps but I really want to emphasise that point, scientific ideas are expressed through language, (It's language that is the coded system of signs and symbols, not science itself)

A word for a thing is not the thing itself, the number 2 is not two things, it's a sign or a symbol that represents oris a substitute for the existence of two things. There's a space between language and reality, the difference between what we say things are and what they actually are, a liitle void where absolute truth will alwys be elusive, absolute truth will always be lost it translation. There lies the fallacy of scientism,

*12 Angry Men!

(grumblegrumble)

There’s a space between language and reality

Some people use language well to express things clearly, some don't.

When typing something one's objective should be to make one's messsage clear.

Work on making that space between language and reality invisibly small.

I can’t see that were saying anything different to each other?

Perhaps. In my defence I did struggle to unpick some of your more esoteric musings so may have misunderstood.

I’m suggesting that some are trotting out facts with a conviction that is beyond-beyond reasonable doubt

For example?

With regards religion, wether we think it’s right or wrong surely we have to recognise that lots of people are believers and that these belief systems have endured for millenia, we have to look to negotiate that rather than counter that,

We have to recognise it, sure, and we do. I'm less convinced that what someone thinks based on superstition holds equal merit as what someone thinks based on verifiable evidence.

In any case, in my experience many people with "beliefs" be that an organised religion or the cult of brexit desire neither to be countered nor negotiated, they just want to be right. Ideological beliefs are way harder to argue against as you cannot disprove something which does not have a proof in the first place, we're into Russell's Teapot territory again.

With regards religion, wether we think it’s right or wrong surely we have to recognise that lots of people are believers and that these belief systems have endured for millenia, we have to look to negotiate that rather than counter that,

Yes but religion is purely personal. It's up to you what you believe and it doesn't affect others.

With Brexit, leavers are jeopardising everyone's future and removing our rights and privileges based on superstition. So it would be like religious people taking over government and removing our right to marry whoever we love, have sex outside marriage, or have abortions. This would be widely recognised as a bad idea by most people.

Cougar-

I prefer to stand accused of esoteric musings, than be accused of being duped by the gutter press or being a brexit apologist!

Rather than dig through he last few pages I'd rather just sat that some here have expressed convictions that to me seem beyond-beyond reasonable doubt, even the word conviction has a certain inflexibility to it, suggesting immovable positions. To a degree we could say that belief in reason is a slightly oxymoronic phrase, you could say that belief is the abandonment of reason. That's why I referenced Critical Rationalism, because that way of thinking requires us to suspend our beliefs momentarily, in order to reconsider our own positions.

In the spirit of Critical Rationalism, If we can compare those with faith based beliefs to the cult of Brexit, surely we should also consider the possibility of a cult of remain as well. (And a cult of reason)

Reason is a product of the Enlightenment, accompanying the Scientific method and the concurrent move away from superstion based models of thinking. It also pressages the birth of the modern idea of the nation state. The French revolution was based on reason, as was communism and Fascism. Eugenics was also another by product of the Enlightenment.

Educator talks of his devotion to the European project, rightly pointing out it's relation to humanism (which predates the enlightenment but is an idea that runs concurrent with the enlightenment) He seems to see the European project as some kind of end game in politics, ethics , democracy and suchlike, a supreme human achievement.

Consider this...
Look at a map of the Europe, what do you see? 30 or so countries which all have crinkly borders that have been established over time throgh conflict and resolution, (and it's an on going process, even within the the confines of post war history we have seen the dissolution of the Soviet Bloc, the disintegration of the Balkans, the division of Checkoslova as well as on going issues in the Basque country, Catalonia, Ireland etc etc etc.

Now look at a map of Africa or the Middle East. What do we see There? Straight lines everywhere. All a product of the Enlightenment. All imposed (designed) by European powers beholden to the age of reason. The perfect humanist model we have created for ourselves in Europe doesn't extend to the rest of the world does it. Then we realise that the perfect European model we live in is not so perfect after all is it? It's actually quite messy and rather fluid. Yet we expect African and Middle eastern countries to just accept these rational models we have imposed on them. For all the turmoil in those parts of the globe their borders have actually stayed more fixed than the borders in Europe.

The relative stability we find in Europe is actually a product of human behaviours that have existed throughout history as much as they are a product of reason. Yet we expect the Africans to grow up and act more rationally.

Can't say as I've given Africa much consideration if I'm honest.

I don't think anyone has suggested that the European model (whatever that is) is "perfect," aside from leavers accusing remainers of thinking that it is and then weaponising that - "if you love the EU so much why don't you live there?" and many similar equally water-tight arguments.

I'd hazard that most remainers fully accept that the EU structure has plenty of room for improvement; indeed, this is a Page 2 discussion, I said right at the start that our message should have been "reform" rather than simply "remain." It's considerably easier to enact change from within rather than without, all the various "the EU is this and is doing that" arguments should have been reasons to stay rather than get out, so that we can control that and veto things we don't want. We've just voluntarily given up that power.

Plenty of people interpreted a remain vote as "do nothing," to maintain the status quo. That hurt us, because they were looking round going "this is all a bit shit" and wanted to try something - anything - different. With the media narrative telling people that everything wrong in their lives was all the fault of foreigners, in many cases a vote for leave was simply a vote for change.

Straight or crinkly, national borders aren't that important other than to the people who live close to them. It allows them to be "different" - e.g. The Debatable Lands, Franco/German, Austro/Italian, etc. Those people find more in common with their "cousins" just over the border than with their nation as a whole, because as inkster said "it's an ongoing process".

I think the EU is a part of process demonstrating the futility of an obsession with national borders.