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Still one of the trickiest areas… and not one I’d trust any prominent pro-Brexit politician to lead the negotiations on…
(Most practical approach is to just say yes to the EU proposals before June, sign early, and let civil servants and businesses crack on with implementation before year end… not sure we have anyone “practical” in place though.)
The impact of labour costs on final item costs is so low that you could do it all with slave labour and it still wouldn’t compensate for even a fairly minor tariff.
You think? I thought it was the main reason manufacturing was so expensive in the developed world?
I really don’t know why we are still arguing about this. The arseholes have won this round. Lets wait for the UK to decline into a **** hole and then we can start rebuilding a sensible nation.
I’m sceptical that a sensible nation will be allowed to exist.
I have a feeling that Bojo and Dom are planning on building their own government Cambridge Analytical and we’re going to have a much more proactive propaganda machine than we’re used to.
After all getting away owning the years of austerity and selling take back control and get Brexit done and generally running everything into the ground to be rewarded with total control.
2020’s gonna be 1994 🙂
84?
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The impact of labour costs on final item costs is so low that you could do it all with slave labour and it still wouldn’t compensate for even a fairly minor tariff.You think? I thought it was the main reason manufacturing was so expensive in the developed world?
I had a googy on this as I think cars are ‘funny’ items as they rely on a serious amount of automation so for your labour costs you get a lot of work done.
What percentage of the cost of a car is Labor?
10-15% of a vehicle's cost is labor. Another 20-30% of the cost is materials. 50-60% of a vehicle's cost is "overhead," defined as the plant that builds the car, the army of engineers employed by each manufacturer, the corporate structures (HR, accounting, etc.), advertising and marketing costs, etc.
I think the giggle is that lower labour costs mean nothing if after Brexit Independence Day, automakers fall foul of the 'rules of origin' which stipulate a high proportion of a car's content must be made locally to avoid benefiting another country or region.
So unless we do some magic with Freeport there could be interesting times ahead
84?
Might be 🙂
How many years of ‘payments’ to the EU does that equate to?
I haven’t done the maths, but that area under the line looks like much less than $170bill to me. So, cost of leaving already more than the payments made for the whole of the time we were members?
Well current net payment to EU is around £10-11billion per annum, so that would suggest 17-18 years. However, since payments have steadily increased that £170billion apparently equates to contributions over the past 47 years.
Jeez. I can't believe people are still arguing about this. Democracy prevailed. Move on and accept that if you want the right to vote then you also have to accept the alternative viewpoint when it differs to yours.
Those of you who still would happily overturn the democratic result should be stripped of the vote.
Don’t think anyone’s arguing about it tbh
So what’s the alternative viewpoint then ?
Democracy prevailed.
Yes it did.
That doesn't mean I have to stop pointing out that the decision the 'majority' made is really bad, and hold them to account for the impact of that ongoing.
You made the bed. I'm going to make you lie in it and tell you the discomfort you will now have.
Edit: I also will hold you to account on the 'plan' and decisions now being made as we move forward.
flanagaj
Jeez. I can’t believe people are still arguing about this. Democracy prevailed. Move on and accept that if you want the right to vote then you also have to accept the alternative viewpoint when it differs to yours.
That's why we have democracy.
So we don't have to accept the alternative viewpoint and can keep campaigning even when defeated in a vote.
Or even change our minds once the vote is implemented.
Democracy is not a one time event...
I agree, but it hasn't even been implemented. Once implemented and after a few years then I have no issue with a campaign to rejoin the EU.
So, even though all the evidence suggests that its a terrible idea, and will harm people, everyone should just stop whingeing on until the damage is done and people have lost livelihoods?
I suppose we're not allowed to say "I told you so" at that point, either?
* edited, as a bit too emotive, even though, Y'know...
Those of you who still would happily overturn the democratic result should be stripped of the vote.
How about those that over-turned the 1970's vote, should we remove the vote from them too? Democracy is too nuanced for absolutes, if it becomes absolute is ceases to be democracy.
I have no intention of trying to overturn any vote but also no intention of 'coming together' and 'making it work'.
Leave have been telling me for years my opinion holds no water so what I intend to do is sit back and say 'We told you so' quite a lot along with the occasional shake of the head when Johnson stiffs yet another area that 'offered him their support'. As has been said the next phase is to make sure the loud bullies own their shite storm because as sure as night follows day it's coming.
Democracy prevailed. Move on and accept that if you want the right to vote then you also have to accept the alternative viewpoint when it differs to yours.
A vital part of democracy is public debate. That's what this is. It doesn't work otherwise, so I suggest you learn to deal with it, maybe join in instead of trying to shut it down.
Democracy is not a one time event…
Unless it was a leave win in another Scottish independence referendum 😉
Once implemented and after a few years then I have no issue with a campaign to rejoin the EU.
But… as often repeated by many people sceptical about the EU but with a reasonable understanding of what leaving it entails… the cost of not being in the EU isn’t that great… if we weren’t already EU members we’d have spent decades developing other reasonable but perhaps not quite as efficient ways of working with the rest of Europe… it is the ballache of leaving that is a huge act of national self harm. We’re not going to pretend otherwise and cheer it on like mindless automatons, just because half the population think it’s a good idea. The “rejoining” argument is mute… it won’t be an option for the UK, and doing so would not reverse the sunk cost and damage of leaving anyway.
Democracy prevailed.
Yes it did.
No it didn't.
So, cost of leaving already more than the payments made for the whole of the time we were members?
I don't have the link to hand, but I read a report the other day suggesting this will be the case by the end of the year. And, y'know, we've not left yet.
Move on and accept that if you want the right to vote then you also have to accept the alternative viewpoint when it differs to yours.
I accept your viewpoint. Why don't you accept ours? Can't have it both ways.
Those of you who still would happily overturn the democratic result should be stripped of the vote.
Absolutely no-one is trying to "overturn" anything. This is what we call a straw man, where you make something up to attack in order to make us look bad. It won't wash, sorry.
No-one? I assume you mean since the election? Loads of people trying to overturn the EU referendum since it happened.
the cost of not being in the EU isn’t that great… if we weren’t already EU members we’d have spent decades developing other reasonable but perhaps not quite as efficient ways of working with the rest of Europe…
I can see what you're getting at, Kelvin, but by the early 70s the cost of not being in the EU was becoming so apparent that a Tory government wanted to join, and did. And if you check out comparative growth curves before and after joining it looks like joining was a good move.
Loads of people trying to overturn the EU referendum since it happened.
Then they're idiots.
it was an advisory referendum (I'm amazed no-one has mentioned this before) and there was a subsequent court case which concluded that May invoked A50 of her own volition independently of the referendum. If hypothetically we were to overturn the result, what would it change? Bog all, it was an opinion poll.
In any case, our esteemed colleague was referring to the recent election I thought?
I agree, but it hasn’t even been implemented. Once implemented and after a few years then I have no issue with a campaign to rejoin the EU
Damage has already been done, £170bn taken out of the economy so far, exclusions from scientific funding & clinical trials and plenty more
Perfectly reasonable to campaign to stop the madness, as well as it's perfectly reasonable to point out that it's still a hilariously daft thing to be doing
it looks like joining was a good move.
Oh, there have been, and still are, huge advantages to being an EU member… my point is that the cost of leaving is far more than just about losing those advantages… and can never be regained by rejoining later, even it that was offered. People are still balancing up being a member against not being a member… and ignoring the huge cost and damage of leaving… partly, I suppose, due to nonsense such as claiming Brexit will be “done” shortly, or that we can have a “clean” break. The task of leaving is itself an act of self harm that can not be truly undone… ever… yet is just shrugged of as “democratic”, as if that will neutralise the impact on the UK somehow.
'Member
Jeez. I can’t believe people are still arguing about this. Democracy prevailed. Move on and accept that if you want the right to vote then you also have to accept the alternative viewpoint when it differs to yours.
Those of you who still would happily overturn the democratic result should be stripped of the vote.'
Having a longish memory, and also being a bit* of a d1ck, I'll now remind you that you called for riots if Brexit wasn't delivered. What part of rioting does democracy fall under?
*A lot.
Democracy prevailed.
No it didn't. We don't have "democracy by referendum" we have a "parliamentary democracy". That's why there was a supreme court ruling regarding prorogation.
I can’t believe people are still arguing about this. Democracy prevailed.
Flippin eck. Democracy isn't a single system with one set of rules that you have to play by. It's not football.
*A* democracy is a government system that includes people voting on things. Most of them work differently.
Just because there was a referendum on something doesn't mean it was a perfect decision, and doesn't mean it was a good idea. Nor does it mean we have to stop pointing this out.
Cougar - can't really believe you're serious with your comment about an advisory referendum.
It's been written and talked about extensively; I can't be arsed to trawl through a squillion posts on here about it.
Cameron and/or May said that the result would be regarded as binding despite the referendum being advisory and that parliament would respect thew 'will of the people'.
Numpties both; devoid of any true conviction.
As for where we are now - Brexit is happening; the focus must be on making it as good as possible - that is, least harmful to GB's interests. That is where an effective opposition can make its mark - I'm not holding my breath.
That is where an effective opposition can make its mark
Not sure how any opposition could steer govt policy in the current situation...?
Those of you who still would happily overturn the democratic result should be stripped of the vote.
Those who don't understand how democracy works should be stripped of the vote.
You'd probably feel more at home in some South American tin pot dictatorship.
Off you go.
Cameron and/or May said that the result would be regarded as binding despite the referendum being advisory and that parliament would respect thew ‘will of the people’.
Politicians promise lots of things all the time, doesn't make it legally binding (more's the pity). Quite why this one detail is sacrosanct and the rest cheerfully ignored I have no idea. Six months ago Boris was building a bridge across to Ireland, how's that working out?
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49377989288_1eb29132b7_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49377989288_1eb29132b7_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
Six months ago Boris was building a bridge across to Ireland, how’s that working out?
I think he built it over some deadly ditch at the end of October last year instead 🤔
Quite why this one detail is sacrosanct and the rest cheerfully ignored I have no idea.
Everyone's accepted that the result was always going to be actioned, and that it wasn't going to be revoked. So the legal status is unimportant.
"Yes your honour, I did murder the deceased, but in my defence he accepted I was going to do it."
Do I need to define "representative democracy" again?
Cougar – can’t really believe you’re serious with your comment about an advisory referendum.
It’s been written and talked about extensively;
I like to think Cougar had his tongue well and truly in his cheek.
Meanwhile, today's Brexit Bonus:
https://metro.co.uk/2020/01/13/man-gets-brexit-surprise-on-invoice-for-new-mercedes-benz-12038546
Meanwhile, today’s Brexit Bonus:
And will only be a problem if the car in question isn't going to be delivered until 2021 because our trading relationship remains the same until 31.12.20 at the earliest, what a crock of shite article
Yoou obviously haven't checked out the pound/euro rate today, Dickyboy. There are some decisions to be made by the EU between now and May on Brexit which could knock 15% off the pound.
Yoou obviously haven’t checked out the pound/euro rate today,
Guilty as charged m'lud 🙄 guess we should be getting forex early for any foreign holidays this year...
what a crock of shite article
Whilst the Metro has a notoriously low standard of journalism which it often fails to meet, it's hardly the article that's a "crock of shite" if they're simply factually reporting an event which actually happened. If you disagree with it then you should be directing your disdain towards Merc instead, nein?
https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/13/brexit-irish-border-uk-northern-ireland
What's that you say? It's actually not that easy to just "get Brexit done"? Well I'm astonished...
The Irish border could yet snag Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal, with experts saying it will be impossible to deliver the computer systems for the special arrangements for Northern Ireland by the end of this year.
Hand up if this comes as news to anyone who has ever worked in IT.
I am just wondering how long the Boris illusion can last? I think 18 months full illusion, 12 months "we're fixing it" then 24 months of utter economic shite.
Jeez. I can’t believe people are still arguing about this. Democracy prevailed. Move on and accept that if you want the right to vote then you also have to accept the alternative viewpoint when it differs to yours.
Result accepted.
What that does not mean is that I prepared to sit back and toe the line whilst politicians and their dodgy backers effectively weaponise stupidity as a positive political force.
I will still be reminding the people that voted for this shitshow every time something comes to light. And I don’t give a shit if that makes them more bitter.
Dickheads on social media are always saying “why don’t you just get behind it?” But what exactly is it they want me to do? I will keep on working hard to provide for my family and pay a handsome amount of tax for the privilege (assuming Brexit doesn’t lose me my job). What else? Sing ‘Two World Wars and One World Cup Doo Dah Doo Dah’ loudly at least once a day?
What they really mean is ‘stop pointing out our stupidity’.
No way.
result NOT accepted here. It was a result of propaganda and gerrymandering. For a democratic vote to be valid the electorate must be informed. It wasn't. Therefore the result is invalid
also my country voted very strongly against brexit.
Accept the result?, aye that'll be ****ing right, like I've said before ill continue to call out those that voted for brexit as deluded ****ing idiots (my actual words are quite a bit stronger)
+1 " all of the above" 🙁
I like this forum. Simple, no avatars and guff like that. But...
Democracy prevailed.
Yes it did.
That doesn’t mean I have to stop pointing out that the decision the ‘majority’ made is really bad, and hold them to account for the impact of that ongoing.
You made the bed. I’m going to make you lie in it and tell you the discomfort you will now have.
Edit: I also will hold you to account on the ‘plan’ and decisions now being made as we move forward
...never have I wanted a ‘Like’ button more.
Also...
flanagaj
I agree, but it hasn’t even been implemented. Once implemented and after a few years then I have no issue with a campaign to rejoin the EU.
I just don’t believe you. And think leaving to make the point then grovelling to get back in *might* leave us worse off. So please don’t try to spin it as a selling point.
Currently I’m in full “I’m alright, Jack” mode. Job (hopefully) secure, decent union so income shouldn’t actually go down*. Mortgage fixed for 10 years. I’ll be fine. Call me an interested spectator.
My GE vote was an irrelevance given my constituency, so I certainly it don’t have to “get behind” anything. Or “get” anything done.
* in absolute terms - hence the long mortgage fix. More than used to real-terms decline, from a previous career. Just let’s hope folk don’t enjoy going overseas and expecting to afford stuff.
I just don’t believe you.
Seems plausible if taken literally perhaps. "after a few years then I have no issue with a campaign to rejoin the EU." No issues with having a campaign, with the assumption that it'll fail.
How many years is "a few" I wonder?
Again Cougar, you’re better at this than me!
My initial response was based on “no issue with rejoining”. Which I don’t believe. But that’s not what was said, and I failed to notice...
What was actually said was “no issue with a campaign”. Which is a different thing. Especially with the “a few” year qualifier. I’m not sit out to be a politician or policy maker.
I’ll stick to life-critical safely decisions instead.
If only I could stop clicking on the damn thread...
I now have a full time role pointing at the shite and going "told you so"
I may have to work overtime.....
I was shot down in the past on this thread for moving from caring socialist to not giving a shit but hey ho hard rain will fall.
NSFW - but funny
If only I could stop clicking on the damn thread…
Well, quite.
It's not democracy when the winning side has got there by telling whopping lies.
The Swiss have the answer to that, invalidate the result.
To be fair, the UK government accepted in court that had ours been a binding referendum it would be declared invalid 🤦
Anyway, the job I was waiting on a start date for has been pulled pending a decision on how Brexit pans out. An extra £10k a year, my own feelings of self worth and the chance for my wife to drop to four days a week to save her own sanity all down the pan. Bastard Brexit
To be fair, the UK government accepted in court that had ours been a binding referendum it would be declared invalid
That's oft cited but it's not true.
The court ruled that an advisory referendum couldn't be held to the same standards as a legally binding one, but they didn't speculate as to what might have happened if it had been mandatory.
It’s not democracy when the winning side has got there by telling whopping lies.
Sadly, it is. That's most of the problem with it.
Just heard Little Liam Fox doing some groundwork to instill the sense that it will be down to civil service intransigence when 1st Feb doesn't reveal a crush of nations banging down the door to do awesomely favourable trade deals.
Instead, of course, it will bring Uncle Don, tub of lube in hand and a facial expression that says "NOW, let's get down to some real business".
But it will all be the fault of a remainer fifth column in the civil service, of course.
Boris wants us to "Bung a Bob for a big Ben bong" on brexit night.. 🙄
Boris wants us to “Bung a Bob for a big Ben bong” on brexit night..
No chance. But every one of those stupid 'celebratory' 50p pieces I ever get is either being donated to the campaign to rejoin or the Grauniad. Whichever I think causes Bojo and his mates the most discomfort.
I like that idea...
Hasn't the validity (or otherwise) of the 2016 referendum been made irrelevant by the recent general election?
A vote for the Tories was a vote to leave.
Arguably the Great British Public are more informed now about the problems of leaving than they were in 2016. And yet Boris still won.
not really as the tories got under 50% of the vote
People have voted 3 times for Brexit.
Sadly it is going to happen.
But leavers should not expect us to keep quiet about it.
not really as the tories got under 50% of the vote
I thought that all brexit supporting parties got <50% combined?
I thought that all brexit supporting parties got <50% combined?
True. But a Brexit party won out right. They now get to enact their policies, and deliver Brexit in whatever form they desire (or can achieve). The fact that only a minority of voters backed them, or now back Brexit, is now pretty irrelevant… (just about) all UK governments rule based a minority share of the vote. That’s why our democracy is superior to all other forms of democracy… there is no need for a UK government to act in the interest of even a slim majority of its residents, never mind aim to act in the interests of most of them. [sarcasm intended]
I might have a big bong on Brexit night, just to ease the pain 🙂
The fact that only a minority of voters backed them, or now back Brexit, is now pretty irrelevant… (just about) all UK governments rule based a minority share of the vote. That’s why our democracy is superior to all other forms of democracy… there is no need for a UK government to act in the interest of even a slim majority of its residents, never mind aim to act in the interests of most of them.
This is what I've been trying to get across for months.
Whether a majority of the populace want brexit or the majority want it stopped is an irrelevance. What the people want, or think they want, has no bearing on anything. Like it or not it's parliament's job to make those decisions on our behalf, this is literally how our democratic system works and has worked for a couple of centuries now. (For some value of "worked," at any rate.)
Arguably the Great British Public are more informed now about the problems of leaving than they were in 2016. And yet Boris still won.
Well he was promising to get 'it' Done, and that Corbyn bloke !!!
I'm not sure that many people are actually interested in the petty implementation issues they just wanted us to take back control as soon as possible.
Hasn’t the validity (or otherwise) of the 2016 referendum been made irrelevant by the recent general election?
A vote for the Tories was a vote to leave.
Arguably the Great British Public are more informed now about the problems of leaving than they were in 2016. And yet Boris still won.
yep pro brexit parties got 47% of vote
2nd ref/remain parties got 53% of the vote so its actually the other way round
None of the headaches have gone away, So farJohnson has no answers better than May's to the same issues of NI, customs, sequencing, divergence etc, in fact his play on NI is worse
they just wanted us to take back control as soon as possible.
This much is certain.
"... of what," remains rather more elusive, however.
“… of what,” remains rather more elusive, however.
big bens bongs?
That's easy for you to say.
Come on everyone, we have to move the debate on. Stop focusing on the past, I mean, who ever mentioned trade deals in the context of Brexit anyway?
https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1217006534514880512