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Good example. My uncle did his entire career as a paramedic. He didn’t need a degree and didn’t end up tens of thousands in debt as a prerequisite to getting his job.
Very good example as the health professions of all types (but most especially paramedics) has moved on quite a bit in the past 20 years.
The requirements now are very different from the time when I trained and the education and training more intensive and involved.
50 years ago they just had to carry folk on a stretcher to hospital but we ask a bit more of them these days, as we do nurses, OT's, SALTs, Dieticians, Physios etc.
Very good example as the health professions of all types (but most especially paramedics) has moved on quite a bit in the past 20 years.The requirements now are very different from the time when I trained and the education and training more intensive and involved.
50 years ago they just had to carry folk on a stretcher to hospital but we ask a bit more of them these days, as we do nurses, OT’s, SALTs, Dieticians, Physios etc.
Not sure how paramedics work. Do you pay to do a degree or is it day release and you don't have to pay for the privilege of being trained to do your job?
Three year degree with time split between classroom learning and placements.
Classroom learning culminates in exams of different forms on a regular basis, which at his university have an 80% pass rate, and you're off the course if you fail any twice. Plus you have to pass all your placements with signed evidence from the paramedics you work with in your portfolio.
Then he will spend 2 years employed on the ambulances before being finally and fully signed off.
Degree is the usual £9k per year job as other degrees plus his loans for living costs.
And a fair whack from us!!!
Do you think the uni component is time effective? Couldn't the three years be condensed into a fraction of that with proper training courses?
My degree added up to all of about 500 hours a year.
He's in pretty much all the time, it's not a 2 hours a day course.
Lower immigration from within and outwith the EU.
1) Brexit will almost certainly lower EU immigration and vastly increase non-EU immigration. Brexit will bring literally the opposite of what they want.
2) We can already impose greater control on immigration and choose not to. We don’t need to leave the EU to do that.
Fewer rules and regulations forced on us by an outside body. I have to say that I do agree with them on this
1) As a controlling member of the EU we already help create those rules, the notion that an “outside body” is imposing anything on us that we don’t agree to or want is a myth. The EU is no more an outside body than Westminster is to Wales.
2) If we hope to trade with the EU27 post-brexit then we’ll still have to accept those rules, we just won’t have a say in making them any longer. Again, brexit will bring literally the opposite of what they want.
3) WTO = almost 300 other countries telling us what to do.
Less interference by lobbyists.
More accountability.
I have no idea what either of these are supposed to mean. Which lobbyists? What’s not accountable currently? Pithy soundbites and no substance, something something sovereignty something.
Your friends are in for a shock.
And the seeds of Johnson’s undoing are right here. Without immigration the economy will tank, and the NHS collapse, two things he’s promised to solve. He’s given himself a no-win situation. Obviously he thinks that british white people, forced by a squeeze on benefits will step in to fill the gap, but I think he may have underestimated their lack of skills and/or ****lessness.
I agree with Cougar ... Boris doesn't care nor does he have to.
Not enough teachers/nurses/<insert here> ... well that's what the people voted for...
That will take a decade or more, and really needs social transformation too. And ideally free university (whose policy was that again?) because the debt thing really puts people off a lot, even though it shouldn’t because the current system is not a bad fudge even if it’s not ideal.
It will take more than that, people will have to "do a Tebbit" ... live in squats and send money home and see the kids at weekends.
I’m not convinced universities are the solution.
They aren't the solution for everything, no. But I wasn't talking about university education.
Having said that, if you want high skill economy then you need a lot of training and deep background in your subject. We need a culture of education, learning and development.
In my industry (IT) almost all employers stick a list of technologies on a CV and discount everyone who doesn't have them. This is incredibly short sighted, because most skills are in fact transferrable and what you need is aptitude. It doesn't matter if I haven't used Maven - I can pick it up in a week or two (and yes, I am sore). No-one wants to invest. But this culture is due in no small way to the culture within the business. Offshoring has meant that big companies who need IT don't keep people around, they don't invest in building their own skills base locally. In other countries they do, and it pays off.
This wouldn't take a generation to fix - a government could create incentives and you could pick up school leavers quite quickly in IT. But what needs to happen is kids need to aspire to do a high skilled job. They need to see themselves as programmers, engineers, chemists, designers etc. And that is harder to achieve.
Not unachieveable of course but it takes a government with a plan and the skill to put it through. And it doesn't have to be left or right wing - investing in skills is vital and a fully compatible with either ideology.
would regularly be required to vote on things about which they had no understanding, and were given very little time to gain any understanding due to sheer volume. Article 13 is a good example, but there are loads of others, including one about invasive species – a regulation that apparently was pertinent to certain countries, but detrimental to others, yet was implemented throughout the EU.
Wow! This legislation take years or decades to come down the pipeline, is subject to consultation and committees (spells of my life I'll never get back); countries, industries, parties and other movements all prepare position papers with which to lobby the legislators - if you turn up to the chamber one day and don't know why you're voting on Invasive Alien Species then you don't deserve your pay or you are Nigel Farage.
What is it about Invasive Alien Species that is pertinent to certain countries, but detrimental to others? This is my thing so I am genuinely interested?
I’m not sure I could have learned medical physics online as easily as in the laboratory.
Or without guidance and study.
Online? Really?
Tampon Tax
As announced but never enacted by George Osborne in Spring 2016?
They aren’t the solution for everything, no. But I wasn’t talking about university education.
Having said that, if you want high skill economy then you need a lot of training and deep background in your subject. We need a culture of education, learning and development.
In my industry (IT) almost all employers stick a list of technologies on a CV and discount everyone who doesn’t have them. This is incredibly short sighted, because most skills are in fact transferrable and what you need is aptitude. It doesn’t matter if I haven’t used Maven – I can pick it up in a week or two (and yes, I am sore). No-one wants to invest. But this culture is due in no small way to the culture within the business. Offshoring has meant that big companies who need IT don’t keep people around, they don’t invest in building their own skills base locally. In other countries they do, and it pays off.
This wouldn’t take a generation to fix – a government could create incentives and you could pick up school leavers quite quickly in IT. But what needs to happen is kids need to aspire to do a high skilled job. They need to see themselves as programmers, engineers, chemists, designers etc. And that is harder to achieve.
Not unachieveable of course but it takes a government with a plan and the skill to put it through. And it doesn’t have to be left or right wing – investing in skills is vital and a fully compatible with either ideology.
You also need a culture of isolation and self sufficiency.
We need food we can't produce ourselves... so we need to sell something outside the UK to buy food. We can to some extend supply our own technologists/scientists and engineers for UK PLC but how do we compete with India and China?
But what needs to happen is kids need to aspire to do a high skilled job. They need to see themselves as programmers, engineers, chemists, designers etc. And that is harder to achieve.
And this is what our pentapachyderm has arse-backwards.
We don't have a home-grown skills shortage because we're importing talent, rather we're importing talent because there's a skills shortage.
This is a huge problem right now in computer security. I'm part of a hacking security group which is actively encouraging young people to get into the industry via Universities and apprenticeship programmes. But it'll be several years before we see the fruits from that.
As announced but never enacted by George Osborne in Spring 2016?
No strings attached?
Degree is the usual £9k per year job as other degrees plus his loans for living costs.
This, in a way, proves just how much Universities havellost their way. They are neither fish not foul. There really is no reason for a paramedic to go to Uni. A number of places in the work have what they call ' colleges ' - not the US college which is really Uni - that are really good at doing the practical and technical training. Nurses, Paramedics, IT etc. In fact I know quite a few University grads who then ent to college to really get the skills employers wanted.
Brexit might help solve this because when we are absolutely desperate for sikked workers, we might actually get innovative.
I'll stick with my Uni educated Doc, thanks, not a Google U grad.
This is a huge problem right now in computer security. I’m part of a hacking security group which is actively encouraging young people to
That's worldwide. 3 years ago you might have been able to attract skilled people from elsewhere to come and do it. Not since
Also believe China and Russia have solutions to that they'd like to try.
“We don’t need no education”
“Just learn it in on the job, innit, add in a few online tutorials in the evenings and… bish bash bosh… I mean, look at all the unproductive time Germans waste when they’re young, should be owt doing their bit for the national economy shouldn’t they.”
@ cromolyolly
I think my sons University Paramedic Course is fine; when he is fully qualified he will have spent 40 months in either the ambulances or health related units (he's currently on a stroke unit learning something of that speciality) and 20 months in University being taught primarily by serving paramedics who share their time between teaching and practice.
The course was pretty much designed by EMAS to provide them with the paramedics they say they want and their involvement is active and relentless throughout training.
I think my sons University Paramedic Course is fine
I'm not suggesting it isn't. Why is it at a Uni though? As I said, other places do pretty much exactly as you describe, including current and ex paramedics teaching and supervising at what are roughly technical colleges . They are cheaper and turn out top quality grads. But they aren Uni's because they don't need to be. I think that's part of the problem.
But they aren Uni’s because they don’t need to be. I think that’s part of the problem.
That's just the name though.
Why is it at a Uni though?
Why wouldn't it be? If it were called a residential tech college would it make a difference?
Cougar....
We don’t have a home-grown skills shortage because we’re importing talent, rather we’re importing talent because there’s a skills shortage.
This is a huge problem right now in computer security. I’m part of a hacking security group which is actively encouraging young people to get into the industry via Universities and apprenticeship programmes. But it’ll be several years before we see the fruits from that.
We are important and offshoring because that is what clients want.
I've worked for clients where it's an obsession in and of itself.
I kid not fixed price contract and we were supplying trained experts in a field doesn't exist in India (yet*) out of profits but every weekly status meeting the client wanted "more offshore" and was obsessed with the offshore and landed ratio's but wanted 15+ yrs experience in a VERY specific area.
I ended up having to create busy work for a whole offshore and landed team on top of doing the actual work.
*Very specific deep industry knowledge in a industry India haven't had for more than 5yrs...
Quick reply. My wife is a dental hygienist which is now a uni course but wasn’t when she did the qualification. All well and good for her to have a career as a dental hygienist and she qualified just as knowledgeable and skilled as the current degree course graduates as alluded to above but......
If she wants to change career she doesn’t have a degree level qualification whereas the current graduates do as will dangerousbeans son. That’s the point of them being courses at university. So that the qualification has the same “level” as a degree in something and if you want to have a career with “graduate entry” in whatever, Your hygiene or paramedic qualification makes you a “graduate”
To illustrate the point. My wife wanted to do dentisty years ago but would have had to go and do a levels to get on the 5 year course despite having the equivalent knowledge of a specialist in one of the dental degree subjects. At the time Someone with a degree in any science could have skipped the first year of the dentistry degree as they had “demonstrated up to postgraduate levels of learning” even if that degree was in chemistry for example.
Carry on..........
That's more to do with crapness rather than specifically being a university. That could be changed.
True.
I think it’s to do with the hangover from times past of what a degree counted for against a vocational qualification. It’s not right but that’s how it currently is
No deal it is...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/16/boris-johnson-will-amend-brexit-bill-to-outlaw-extension
What is it about Invasive Alien Species that is pertinent to certain countries, but detrimental to others? This is my thing so I am genuinely interested?
Can't recall the exact details to be honest, but he's always ranting on about it when he's trying to justify Brexit. It was some sort of plant and involved ponds IIRC, but he seemed to have a good case.
I think it's very hard to argue with the fact that too much is decided at the EU level. Article 13 is a prime example.
JP
The no deal thing officially in legislation?? Why?? Probably just a smoke screen and they will have no deal in name only instead of Brexit in name only
Member
Tampon TaxAs announced but never enacted by George Osborne in Spring 2016?
Nah last Tory Manifesto
From freeports to free trade deals, from abolishing the cruel live shipment of animals to cutting VAT on tampons, we in the UK will be able to remain close to our European friends and partners; but where we choose, we will be able to do things differently and better.
I think / hope the “no deal” headline is just hyperbole for clicks.
As above it’s purpose is two-fold, 1) to ensure May’s deal passes promptly, although with the numbers he’s got there’s no reason why it wouldn’t 2) to look the hard man to the Brexiteers.
He wants to be Churchill / Thatcher, but he acts Trump.
Preparing for no deal, or a “bare bones FTA” on goods only…
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/1002/1080715-interconnector-electricity/
The Government has secured more than half a billion euro in grants from the European Commission to connect Ireland's electricity network to France.
The Celtic Interconnector will be underwater with 700 megawatts capacity and will mean Ireland has guaranteed access to the European Union’s internal energy market.
…
Ireland is currently connected to the EU energy market through the UK but once Brexit happens, Ireland will have no such connection. However, the interconnector will ensure access to the EU market.
Will we be laying cables to the USA?
2) to look the hard man to the Brexiteers.
I reckon 2 then he’ll stitch em up when it gets hard.
It’s to focus our attention on the dates, not the cost… remember, it’s about “getting it done” not looking at the burden they know it will place on us.
https://twitter.com/chrisgiles_/status/1181311618229166080?s=21
https://twitter.com/chrisgiles_/status/1182601198983090176?s=21
What is it about Invasive Alien Species that is pertinent to certain countries, but detrimental to others? This is my thing so I am genuinely interested?
Can’t recall the exact details to be honest, but he’s always ranting on about it when he’s trying to justify Brexit. It was some sort of plant and involved ponds IIRC, but he seemed to have a good case.
I think it’s very hard to argue with the fact that too much is decided at the EU level.
I think it'd be harder to argue that an approach to managing, say, Invasive Alien Species should not be addressed a continent level.
Member
Tampon TaxAs announced but never enacted by George Osborne in Spring 2016?
Nah last Tory Manifesto
March 2016 GO met with EU and came back and said he could abolish the TT, then other stuff took over the agenda. It's in the newspapers from that time.
Workers rights under threat too (surprise surprise). Removal of a clause preventing "non-regression" on workers’ rights after Brexit.
Will we be laying cables to the USA?
The only cable that matters was laid on 23rd June 2016.
The only cable that matters was laid on 23rd June 2016.
You must know Vince well.
March 2016 GO met with EU and came back and said he could abolish the TT, then other stuff took over the agenda. It’s in the newspapers from that time.
Yep but it was such a powerful reason to leave the EU the fact it wasn't actually relevant(as a done deal) seems to have been missed inadvertently by the writers of the Tory Manifesto.
So, with the point of no return coming up in… six weeks or so… when do you think they’ll deign to sketch out a rough idea as to what the plan is for replacing EU membership? February 2020, or December 2020?
https://twitter.com/russincheshire/status/1208126144895234054?s=21
https://twitter.com/russincheshire/status/1208126152470077440?s=21
https://twitter.com/russincheshire/status/1208126156484026372?s=21
We need a close relationship with the EEA… but we have a government claiming we can escape alignment with the EU… and use that to leverage new trade deals around the world. A government that has already said that even if that succeeds it’ll be insignificant compared to what we will lose as we leave the EEA&CU as regards trade… so, what’s the plan?
so, what’s the plan?
Hope that the USA spits on it before fisting us to oblivion.
Plan?
There was never ever anything vaguely resembling a plan for obvious reasons.
4 new civil service departments to be created to deal with the extra bureaucracy & red tape of brexit
Good news is they will be out of London
But the costs (£bns) mean money not going to the actual problems we face, just the one we are creating for ourselves
https://www.ft.com/content/56230938-27d7-11ea-9305-4234e74b0ef3
4 new civil service departments to be created to deal with the extra bureaucracy & red tape of brexit
Fantastic, think of all those new jobs it'll create! We're benefiting already!!1!
I am sure Dom had his heart set on making the civil service redundant and handing power to the (un) elected cabinet?
The business that will monitor UK vessels is part-owned by the French government.
The contract was awarded by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) in late summer having previously been held by a British firm, Globavista.
https://twitter.com/houseofcommons/status/1214996118322532353?s=21
They’re not even going to try, are they.
The alternative view is that these amendments/clauses do not need to be added to the withdrawal agreement. They will restrict the flexibility of the negotiations.
The aim is no deal, no trade bloc, trade treaty with the US and goodbye to all our worker and environmental protections to increase profits for a few. that this will impoverish the country to them is a price worth paying for their increased riches and freedom to abuse workers
And they will eat your babies too, don't forget that bit.
TJ is right though. Yesterday Joris Bohnson made two staements about the negotiations and our future relationship with the EU
1. The timescale would not be extended under anu circumstances
2. The UK has no intention of continuing regulatery alignment with the EU and intends to diverge from EU rules and standards
These two things are mutually incompatible. Why would the EU give an easy trade deal to a country that has just signalled it intends to deregulate its economy?
When Boris says we intend to 'diverge' from EU standards, he means the tearing up workers rights, environmental and food standards, slash tax and deregulate the financial industry.
The Eu aren't just going to take that and give us a nice cushy trade deal. they're going to tell us to **** off. I can't see anythign else other than a No Deal crash out in December. Given the stated aim of this government, thats the only feasable outcome
I do wonder how Johnson will spin it
His withdrawl agreement, was bascially him folding like a wet napkin & giving Vardkaar the customs border down the Irish Sea that Ireland had wanted from day 1
Of course it broke the explicit promise Johnson had personally made to the DUP, and wasa huge climbdown for the UK
but all we heard about was how amazing it was that he'd reopened the talks & got rid of the backstop, that he'd driven a wedge into the UK & replaced it with a frontstop , is somehow ignored
I predict a similar climbdown in a year that will still be sold as a victory
And they will eat your babies too, don’t forget that bit.
Steady on, that plan only takes effect if the economy really tanks and there are food shortages.
I predict a similar climbdown in a year that will still be sold as a victory
The problem with that is that when he climbed down last time, the only people he was throwing under the bus were the DUP, and they'd served their purpose
This time its Borises paymasters who would have to be sold down the river. The hedge fund managers, speculators and disaster capitalists who bankrolled his leadership, and then general election campaigns. They want their payback payday that only a no deal Brexit can deliver
When Boris says we intend to ‘diverge’ from EU standards, he means the tearing up workers rights, environmental and food standards, slash tax and deregulate the financial industry.
The Eu aren’t just going to take that and give us a nice cushy trade deal. they’re going to tell us to **** off.
Nope. UK is using CETA as a start point for negotiations. UK will continue with the high standards that they helped to ratify across all the EU members previously.
"When Boris says we intend to ‘diverge’ from EU standards..."
"UK will continue with the high standards that they helped to ratify across all the EU members previously"
Maybe Borris will just cross out "EU" and scribble "UK" instead.
If Johnson and co wanted to retain high standards then there is no need to diverge from EU standards. Do not be so naive.
Its not just animal welfare - its sick pay, holiday pay, worker protection, environmental standards etc. We are already the worst in the EU on most of these barely meeting the minimum standards
This is the " bonfire of red tape" they want. They want to be like the US - 2 weeks holiday a year, no protection from dismissal, No workplace rights
UK is using CETA as a start point for negotiations. UK will continue with the high standards that they helped to ratify across all the EU members previously.
Which is it? Based on CETA, or continue with current standards?
Anyway, Erasmus cooperation could be continued after we drop EU membership… and to be fair to Johnson and his team, they said so explicitly back in 2016 that was the case. So why not commit to try and negotiate participating in Erasmus now? They are not going to bother with it, are they… if you’re from a rich family, you don’t really need the scheme anyway.
Nope. UK is using CETA as a start point for negotiations. UK will continue with the high standards that they helped to ratify across all the EU members previously.
Eh?
CETA doesnt come close to the standards we have through EU membership
the USA listed downgrading workers rights, enviromental, food & agriculture standards in their leaked negotiation wishlist
all of which Johnson dutifully removed from the legally binding WA to the meaningless Political Declaration
I feel a convulted sense of schadenfreude coming on, which is incredibly ironic as I'm also going to get ****ed by this.
Anyone who thinks workers rights are going to remain the same or indeed improve are naive. The same goes for just about every aspect of life once the pound tanks.
There is a very select, well off, selfish group of people who are going to benefit from this debacle.
It will be delivering the same high UK standards but the wording in our agreement will be based on CETA in some aspects. If Canada doesn't need full legal alignment written in then why would the UK agree to that
It's nothing to do with naivety tj, I was countering your made up bigoted view of the future with a more reasonable prediction.
a more reasonable prediction.
Pineapple-ringed spectacles more like.
Erasmus gone.
As a result my boss will be letting three more staff go who were funded by Erasmus to lead projects exchanging best practice and innovation in education across the UK. It's a £200k hole in our organisation since last year.
This stings and hurts. This is no deal Brexit cutting real deep.
Can someone who is a brexiteer explain to me how this is a Good Thing?
UK will continue with the high standards that they helped to ratify across all the EU members previously.
Where'd you get that idea from?
Since when are Tories big on worker protection and rights?
exsee
Johnson and his backers have stated that they want to do away with workers protections and environmental standards. Its one of the main aims. along with selling of the NHS
Hence me stating your position is naive - because it is.
Then present Tory mob have already flagged up exactly what they intend to do once 'free of the shackles of the EU'. You can read it for yourself. It was written by Kwasi Kwarteng, Priti Patel, Dominic Raab, Chris Skidmore and Liz Truss, all of whom now occupy senior cabinet roles
In summary: tear up workers rights and deregulate everything, while slashing tax for the rich and corporations. Turning the country into a sweatshop/tax haven
And thats exactly what they mean when they talk about 'regulatory divergence' from the EU. A lot of the things we take for granted as part of a civilised society are about to be torched
We're about to be a test bed for the most extreme form of turbo-charged neoliberal economics. They'll go through the motions during the next year of pretending to negotiate with the EU, but no deal is what they want as it gives them a blank sheet of paper
Can someone who is a brexiteer explain to me how this is a Good Thing?
There aren't any who would actually own up to being a Brexiteer, after all you'd be called out for being many of the naughtiest words on the planet.
And they DGAS, they "won" we lost, thats all they care about.
Quite why this is a surprise to any normal thinking human being is well, beyond any comprehension.
But you voted for it, you'll have to suffer it just like they will. The only difference is they won't be affected since they don't mix in the same circles.
Predictable as having a shit in the morning, theres plenty more to come.
And you have no voice, because lyingblohard and his cohorts don't care what you say and aren't listening.
You may as well close this thread down and get with the program.
Work harder for less, do as they say and don't question their decisions.
Predicted all this shit at the very start of the thread back in 2016, but we've all just wasted our time because the **** have got their own way. When you can only look backwards, you make the same mistakes as you've always done. History is full of people who look backwards and are full of their own limitations.
I vote (natch) we close this thread down. Nothing productive or positive will come of it.
You know the narrative in the X-Files, where the shadowy lot won't kill off Mulder because it'll make him a martyr and 57 other Mulders will pop up in his place? Well, that.
Indeed, one big thread for all the wise people to ignore is better than lots of new ones to skip past. Although we have one new one today anyway.
Erasmus is still on the table Matt, not great but nothings really changed so there's still hope for it to continue.
@bikebouy - depressingly you are right.
Last week one of my brother in law's was telling me that 'there is a done deal for Brexit, it is agreed, it is a Good One' and 'It is great, we get to take back control and set our own laws' and 'the NHS will be better funded now we don't send the money abroad'. This from someone who currently lives outside the UK, voted for brexit when he lived here, is married to my sister who was NHS nurse for 14 years, and is an ex-police officer who was angry at the cuts Theresa May inflicted on them and is from an immigrant family who have been welcomed into the UK...
The same day an uncle was telling me that Britain is 'going down the pan because of all the immigrants and gays'. This from a Canadian by birth, South African by upbringing, working life in Saudi Arabia and Uganda, who lived in South Wales illegally for three years as he could not get residence and conspired to lie with his wife to gain university funding for his son (said she was single mum) and supported his son to go on Erasmus exchange and daughter to win a scholarship to study in the USA. He went on to say it was good we were 'closing the border' and able to 'tighten up on the feeding trough of British pounds that the EU enjoy'.
Sadly @bikebouy saying that all many brexiteers care about is 'we won' and 'we are out'. NOTHING else matters. This is the opportunity that the tories will use to maximise their own gain, while all the brexiteers are still cheering and not paying attention.
I wonder at what point will many realise the national economic and social pain, and personal cost, that Brexit and the Tories are about to unleash? Too many years down the line and after too much (foul) water has passed under the bridge it seems.
It’s nothing to do with naivety tj, I was countering your made up bigoted view of the future with a more reasonable prediction.
Id say it was just ignorance if you think that the current flow of goods, manufacturing components, services, data, people, etc between the UK & Canada & the EU are comparable then you are clueless
Erasmus is still on the table Matt
Sure?
OK the Lords could still block it, but we have already had an email from partners in Slovakia telling us that their National Agency is to cut all projects as of today. That includes one with us.
https://twitter.com/HouseofCommons/status/1214996118322532353
Yep I'm sure.
That to me reads like they are no longer REQUIRED to negotiate for full membership - but they still might do so.
exsee - on what basis are you sure given that the commons has voted against remaining in it?
+1 - can you explain your reasoning exsee?
exsee
Member
Yep I’m sure.
Yeah Switzeralnd tried to ignore FOM & still be part of ERASMUS
they failed & got booted out
what point will many realise the national economic and social pain, and personal cost, that Brexit and the Tories are about to unleash? Too many years down the line and after too much (foul) water has passed under the bridge it seems.
Sadly this is probably true- the areas ravaged by Thatcher seemed happy to vote for Brexit and Johnson. When it's all turned to shite, who will they blame?
Exsee is, of course, right good to see there is still a one eyed man on this thread.