[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

But the EU can let in whoever they want via whatever scheme they can dream up.

Individual countries control who can live and work in them from outside the EEA/FoM area, no?

Wasn’t there a move by the EU to legislate to allow UK citizens who wanted to remain EU citizens to apply to retain EU citizenship?

Haven’t seen anything on it for a couple of years though.

There was - it went quiet, likely because it would have affected negotiations. I bet it resurfaces after the deal's done though.

Individual countries control who can live and work in them from outside the EEA/FoM area, no?

Ah yes they can, good point, but if the EU comes up with an associate membership scheme then it would apply everywhere I guess.

The only option is to jump on board and try to make it work. If it fails it needs to be a collective failure, and equally if a success, then a collective success.

Of course, it makes it a lot easier to say that if it is what you secretly wanted all along.

Now that really is my last post on a politics thread.

But I could not let that one pass from dazh of all people. The bare faced cynicism behind that line, from someone who has been a fake remainer all along just could not go uncommented. Utterly ****ing outrageous.

Wasn’t there a move by the EU to legislate to allow UK citizens who wanted to remain EU citizens to apply to retain EU citizenship?

Maybe if you give back Gibralta. 😉

I’ve been at the beers tonight, so I’m probably way off, but it’s finally ‘clicked’ why we lost in 2016 and why we have failed to reverse the result since.

Yeah there’s the horrible, criminal unfairness of the argument - the tiny number of people who’ll benefit hugely from it are so wealthy and powerful that they can control the big parts of the media and sadly this came at a time when most people have filtered their lives to only ever hear the things they want to hear.

But more than that, Brexit was a contest between head and heart, logic and emotion.

Remainers look at the economic benefits, the freedoms and protections and accepted the reduction in Sovereignty, in fact a lot of us aren’t very patriotic. I’m not I’ve no real ‘pride’ in being British, it’s pure accident of birth. I like living here, but I don’t care if the people I live near were born on this island or any other, I don’t care if they don’t watch ‘only fools’ at Xmas or drink Tea.

So when we were having a national debate about, fighting the referendum or trying to undo the result, because let’s be honest with ourselves that’s what we were trying to do, we argued on those terms. We shouted about the economic pitfalls, the loss of freedoms within the EU and the potential loss of rights and freedoms at home afforded to us by being EU citizens.

The problem was we weren’t listening - leavers didn’t care about those things, well not as much as they cared about other things. They care about Britishness, they believe in borders and sovereignty. There was a former CIA agent speaking about Brexit recently, the Americans, even the left leaning (from their point of view) ones are very patriotic. A huge proportion of them really and without question believe they live in the greatest country on earth, to say otherwise is a great insult to them. This CIA man, who was very patriotic said “Britain used to control 80% of the known world, they don’t want to be ruled by another nation” and however much you can debate the how’s and whys of that, for lots of leavers it’s true.

We lost and lost again, not because we were wrong about the things we care about, but because we dismissed the opinions of people on the other side.

Remainers and not just us jabbering away on here when we should probably be working but the people we chose to fight the remain cause we often very rude to Leavers, but worse we’re didn’t even think we were. Yeah JRM is a prick who’s in it to short the U.K. to make millions and Farage is a populist in it for ego - but we often dismiss leavers as being stupid, misinformed, fools who were duped by the Farages and JRMs of the world, but it’s not true they are ready and willing to accept the thing we fear for greater control of their lives.

When they shouted about unelected Eurocrats we should have been arguing about how they’re not, but mostly we shouted about trade deals

When they shouted about immigration we should have been arguing about the benefits of migrants from the EU and confirming that non-EU migrants gain no benefit here from us being in the EU but we argued for freedom of movement for us.

There’s other arguments of course and it’s not like the Leave argument was being wonderfully polite and open to new ideas either, but it was our job to ‘sell’ our point of view to them, Leave won.

Staunch remainers, like me, are partly to blame for Boris and his landslide, we are a lot of the reason why Leavers are so entrenched in their position and willing to accept anything that Boris wants to leave. Because we’ve never accepted the referendum result - instead of calling for a close relationship with theEU and the things we care about protected we refuse to accept their points were valid, called them stupid and dismissed them as fools duped by arseholes.

Hindsight is great, but we are in part the artitect of our own hard Brexit and Boris government.

The same thing is happening now, Twitter is full of people posting that the election wasn’t fair and the Tories should be a minority government because they got less than 50% of the popular vote or because 30% of people didn’t vote. It’s sour grapes, because when Farage and UKIP wanted PR we didn’t want it.

If the ‘left’ ever wants to steer the U.K. again we have to accept the views of others, we’re supposed to the the open minded ones after all! From the Socialists who treat every they disagree with as the enemy to the hardliner Remainers who refuses to accept anything but full EU membership we need to change.

Remainers look at the economic benefits, the freedoms and protections and accepted the reduction in Sovereignty,

I would like to think Remainers acknowledged there was no loss of sovereignty. But yes, you are right, the leave campaign was heavily based on taking back control from Brussels which the leaves bought into readily.

If the ‘left’ ever wants to steer the U.K. again we have to accept the views of others

Good post p-jay.

I would like to think Remainers acknowledged there was no loss of sovereignty. But yes, you are right, the leave campaign was heavily based on taking back control from Brussels which the leaves bought into readily.

Fundamentally it’s stuff like that, that killed us. As far as Leave are concerned the EU says jump and Westminster says “how high”. Thatcher always gave the impression she was in a constant battle with them which kept eurosceptics appeased if not happy, Blair (who I’m a fan of, despite the war, not because of it) would often gleefully go along with them in our best interests or worse use them as an excuse to pass unpopular laws. Maybe he saw it as a way to destabilise the Tories who were usually in a civil war over the EU.

Remainers know we have a Veto on everything and know we had a huge say in the EU, Leavers know that despite those things we will, even occasionally have to accept things we’d rather not either for the greater good or just to keep the others happy. By saying we have absolute sovereignty and they’re wrong, we’re causing distrust and even hatred.

Brexit divided the country between the rational and the emotional. And it's really easy to appeal to people's emotions if you're unscrupolous.

If the ‘left’ ever wants to steer the U.K. again we have to accept the views of others

Your journey to the right of centre has begun.

I’ve learned recently that intolerance seems to be a prerequisite of being Left Wing, I guess I’ve always been a Centrist.

I don’t believe in “with us, or against us” anymore

I think you are right P-Jay. One of my sisters lives in the USA and is married to an American bloke. I remember just after Trump got elected he posted some insult or other against the orange weapon and one of his pals, who did not vote Republican chastised him and basically told him that now Trump was president he couldn’t speak about him in negative term. It shocked me and has stuck in my mind.

I, like you have no real pride in being British. I like being a Yorkshire man, feel lucky to have been brought up where I was and have no desire to move. I expect to be able to travel around the world and enjoy it so am happy for every other nationality to do the same. I like meeting and living with all different groups and really don’t have a strong feeling of my ‘group’.

I don’t think I will ever understand people who think like the American chap above or those who think being British is a badge of honour. This means I will never properly understand those who voted leave without a reasoned argument.

I voted remain
Wanted a 2nd referendum
Voted labour twice

At this point I accept the result. Boris campaigned with his deal front and centre, and in spite of it being a terrible deal in lots of ways, he won by a landslide.

The people voted on his deal, not some vague question. That was my biggest issue with the 2016 ref.

But until I come across a single benefit or improvement to people's lives as a result of Brexit, I reserve the right to moan about it, forever.

I also politely ask everyone who voted for Boris to hold him to his promises. How many hospitals are we getting?

The people voted on his deal

Mate, it was a general election. It's not the same as a referendum.

one of his pals, who did not vote Republican chastised him and basically told him that now Trump was president he couldn’t speak about him in negative term

Cultural difference. The President is also the head of state and has a symbolic as well as executive role - which is different to many other countries. So he's the figurehead of the country and that's why many people think that you have to respect him whatever. In many ways the Queen performs a useful function - meeting dignitaries, cutting ribbons, drawing in the tourists and all that waffle, whilst being apolitical.

If you want to go down that line then the Queen is untouchable but the Tories are her natural foot soldiers so the obvious choice to lead if you are nationalistic. Brexit leavers, even the labour ones fell in to line.

Mate, it was a general election. It’s not the same as a referendum.

Yes thanks for pointing that out 😉

It was the central policy of the conservative campaign and they won.

I voted remain
Wanted a 2nd referendum
Voted labour twice

Agreed,

This weeks election was the 2nd ref in all but name and we lost, maybe it was because of Corbyn and all that came with him, but ffs Bolsover went Tory, decades of continuous Labour control overturned because we got our argument so wrong.

All those Remainers who left their party over Brexit, all lost.

It was the central policy of the conservative campaign and they won.

That accounts for some of the votes but no-one knows how many. Polling data on leave/remain was markedly different from the GE. Plenty of leave areas still voted Labour. So whilst Brexit was a factor, it was one of many.

The problem was we weren’t listening – leavers didn’t care about those things, well not as much as they cared about other things. They care about Britishness, they believe in borders and sovereignty. There was a former CIA agent speaking about Brexit recently, the Americans, even the left leaning (from their point of view) ones are very patriotic. A huge proportion of them really and without question believe they live in the greatest country on earth, to say otherwise is a great insult to them. This CIA man, who was very patriotic said “Britain used to control 80% of the known world, they don’t want to be ruled by another nation” and however much you can debate the how’s and whys of that, for lots of leavers it’s true.

Those people are stupid and misinformed.

But they won't learn by us telling them that.

They will slowly learn over the course of a number of decades, that we aren't better than the rest of the world and special because we controlled 80 percent of the known world, when the UK drifts into obscurity. Much as it took a couple of decades for the humiliation of defeat to really cause introspection in Germany and Japan.

There were a bunch of aging gammons in and around greater Birmingham on tv, who were talking about voting conservative and leave because they used to be good at manufacturing. Yes we were, when we were pinching the strategic materials from the rest of the world. Now our former empire have effective controls of their own economies, import costs have gone up so we can no longer deindustrialise brown people.

It doesn't dawn on them that it's never coming back. Ever.

By the time they realise, most of them will be dead anyway and the war will have passed from living and even verbal memory.

**** em, isn't going to affect me more than the 2008 financial crisis did in terms of a financial hit to my pocket - so I'm resigned to being amused by the fact they can enjoy their little fantasy like pigs in shit, whilst knowing that their lives aren't going to get any better.

Just because an almost majority of voters are stupid enough to vote for something it does not make it a good thing.

indeed, **** em

It was the central policy of the conservative campaign and they won.

Absolutely. A large minority of voters backed that party that had that central policy. Enough to put them in power. They can get on with it now. It doesn’t mean that the majority of people back that policy or that party though does it.

I agree with a lot of P-Jay's analysis. Just one objection, I'm in favour of proportional representation and on the basis of contributions to this forum I think most remainers here are too. It's one of the points I agree with Farage on, one of not many, but when I agree with him I'm not going to change my view just because he says the same.

Boris has a few problems....

How does he get an MP who was a mental health care assistant to vote for anything that has a negative impact on poor people (which is pretty much most traditional Tory policy- not the current lies he is peddling)

How is he going to get his new Labour light MPs to support a hard brexit that may impact jobs in their constituency.

The new polital fight for the soul of this country will be ERG v New Conservatives....

As ever who will Boris chuck under the bus come December 2020?

iffoverload

Member
Just because an almost majority of voters are stupid enough to vote for something it does not make it a good thing.

Perfect example: Trump

How is he going to get his new Labour light MPs to support a hard brexit that may impact jobs in their constituency.

Well, this is an interesting point. As I said before several commentators are saying that he is actually a liberal rather than a hard right - he just pretended to be a right wing loonie to get the hard right onside when he needed them.

Everyone knows you need the centre ground in politics to keep winning, and it's now wide open for him to move into. If he screws the newly Tory constituencies they won't waste any time in chucking him out - and he knows this. He could consolidate Tory rule for a decade, Blair style.

But if he becomes a Blairite, then I'll have far less to complain about. So let's wait and see.

"New Conservatives" lets see how long Boris can keep the ERG in check....

It’s a lefty thing.

So whilst Brexit was a factor, it was one of many.

It was the key factor in the election. Labour didn't seem to realise this. It was a danger, and it was now. Labour biffing on about free BB in 11 years was irrelevant; this was a 'now' policy.

Even Remainers voted for Boris because they want an end to the whole mess, not to drag it out for another 3 years. The view seems to be 'just get it done, and then let's see what's next'

It’s a lefty thing.

I'm a lefty. Am I nasty?

Everyone knows you need the centre ground in politics to keep winnin

This is where Grandad and his cronies went so wrong. Labour are toast until they move away from their current policies.

The whole Labour failure was the triple whammy of poor national policies, no Brexit policy worthy of note and an unconvincing leader (as politely as I can put it!).

taxi25

Member
Good post p-jay.

+1

I’ve been at the beers tonight, so I’m probably way off, but it’s finally ‘clicked’ why we lost in 2016 and why we have failed to reverse the result since.
...
But more than that, Brexit was a contest between head and heart, logic and emotion.

Perfectly corrolated by

Does he really think anyone will read such long silly posts?

Labour should have released their manifesto in the form of a picture book, maybe with some free red, white and blue crayons. They'd have walked it.

Labour's manifesto was very wordy, Conservatives was "get brexit done." Not hard to see why people who don't like reading things went for the latter in droves.

I hate to keep quoting him, but Farage said during the election night coverage that Johnson would be less beholden to the ERG now and is much more likely to seek a better long term deal with Europe. He was also pretty sure there would be an extension of the negotiating period. Parties within parties...

The bare faced cynicism behind that line, from someone who has been a fake remainer all along just could not go uncommented. Utterly **** outrageous.

Danny WTH are you going on about? I never said remainers should suddenly begin agreeing with brexit, just that they should accept defeat. The comment about jumping on board was about the labour party, in that until they've demonstrated that they've stopped trying to frustrate brexit, those leave voters in northern seats will never come back. Stop reading what you want to read and actually respond to the point being made.

And still a remainer btw, but it's all a bit pointless now isn't it? Until we stop with the leaver/remainer schism nothing will improve. Time to move on.

Interesting thoughts P-jay, I strongly believe some of the sentiment of your post.
Listening and respecting an opinion is a difficult thing to do and obviously gets harder the further apart you both are, I do think the modern way is to shout down and ridicule the opposing view which is made much easier by the quick punchline social media access. So so many make such noise about how they have the answers but can't see they are also a part of the problem.
Political bigotry is well out of control on here and completely accepted as the norm, why?

I read this quote on the BBC earlier today and thought of stw political threads

Because half a dozen grasshoppers under a fern make the field ring with their importunate chink, whilst thousands of great cattle, reposed beneath the shadow of the British oak, chew the cud and are silent, pray do not imagine that those who make the noise are the only inhabitants of the field.

I hate to keep quoting him, but Farage said during the election night coverage that Johnson would be less beholden to the ERG now and is much more likely to seek a better long term deal with Europe. He was also pretty sure there would be an extension of the negotiating period. Parties within parties…

I don’t think Boris really cares about Brexit it’s just been a great McGuffin that has allowed him to be PM.

As you say he’s not beholden to anyone now so a quick Brino would give him the Brexit done and not trash the country erg can huff an puff as much as they like.

IMHO Boris likes being PM more than he likes Brexit.

Leavers are now in the same position now as remainers they can’t dictate the type of leave.

Don’t forget Cummings enduring love for the erg.

Yeah. Boris only cares about power, so he'll say whatever he needs to to secure it. That was Brexit, but after that it'll be spending money on the North. It might work out ok. Basically you can get anything you want if you can just convince him there's votes in it.

How many hospitals are we getting?

Twelvety garden bridges brought to you by Carillion and G4S in northern cities as thanks!

Time to move on.

For sure.

So, what exactly are we aiming to replace our membership of the EU with?

What’s going to change for the better after we’ve left, that couldn’t be achieved without giving up EU membership?

(Still feels like it’s July 2016 to me.)

Time to move on.

For sure.

So, what exactly are we aiming to replace our membership of the EU with?

What’s going to change for the better after we’ve left, that couldn’t be achieved without giving up EU membership?

(Still feels like it’s July 2016 to me.)

I've got quite a few friends who've been heavily involved in the leave campaign. Some have direct experience of working in the EU as an organisation. I don't agree with them, but these are the main things they think we'll achieve by leaving:

Lower immigration from within and outwith the EU.
Fewer rules and regulations forced on us by an outside body. I have to say that I do agree with them on this - MEPS are constantly voting on new EU wide laws that often don't make any sense when applied to a specific country.
Less interference by lobbyists.
More accountability.

As I said, these aren't my views, but, even as a staunch remainer, I can see that some of them make sense to some extent.

JP

My tuppence-worth would be to observe that whilst those are perhaps true, I'm less sure what the benefit of those truisms would be.

I'm now resigned to Brexit happening, and just hope that the damage caused is not as bad as we fear...

Which rules and regulations are we dumping?

What has immigration “outwith” the EU, into the UK, go to do with the EU?

Farage said during the election night coverage that Johnson would be less beholden to the ERG

There are mutterings that while there are around 60 actual ERG ers they have enough sympathisers that they could make things very uncomfortable for Boris if things do go enough their way.

Fewer rules and regulations forced on us by an outside body. I have to say that I do agree with them on this –

That's probably true as long as you don't want to do any trade deals. If you do, then meeting someone else's rules an regs will be baked in. You can't get away from that unless you go WTO rules. But then the WTO is setting the rules, so you are still having them forced on you by an outside body. The !Ain difference being you want have any votes at all on them.

Fewer rules and regulations forced on us by an outside body.

Out of interest, what outside body are they referring to, and how are they forced? I presume they mean the EU which we are (currently) in and have a say and often a veto. Once we are out I expect we'll find out a bit more about having rules forced on us by an outside body

That was Brexit, but after that it’ll be spending money on the North

Do you think they will?

Fewer rules and regulations forced on us by an outside body.

The UK has voted against 2% of EU proposals - about 70 items, none of them of any great significance.

kelvin

Subscriber

Which rules and regulations are we dumping?

What has immigration “outwith” the EU, into the UK, go to do with the EU?

Before I say this, I should reiterate that these aren't my views, in case this gets taken out of context.

Regarding non-EU immigration, I'd imagine they are referring to the migrant crisis in the Middle East and the subsequent migration through EU countries to the UK, and/or pressure put on the UK by the EU to take more migrants.

One of my friends was an advisor for an MEP. His problem with the EU is that MEPs would regularly be required to vote on things about which they had no understanding, and were given very little time to gain any understanding due to sheer volume. Article 13 is a good example, but there are loads of others, including one about invasive species - a regulation that apparently was pertinent to certain countries, but detrimental to others, yet was implemented throughout the EU.

JP

I wasn't going to do them all but I've bitten now.

Lower immigration from within and outwith the EU.

Probably true but mostly because we now come across less friendly and welcoming. Anyway, immigration is a good thing and from break down of the stats it seems it's places that don't have much of it that seemed more inclined to vote against it.

Less interference by lobbyists.
More accountability

They've a lot more faith in the Tory party than me if they genuinely feel this to be true

As a remainer I'm glad that this uncertainty phase is over. The tories were always going to win this election, which makes me wonder as to the wisdom of those in Parliament who let him have his election.

That said, the "remain" parties and independents couldn't get it together because they wanted different flavours of remain, just like there are different versions of brexit. The tories offered brexit, but we still don't really know what type of brexit it will be. Brexit means Brexit...

But this is merely the end of chapter one in season one. We will return to the EU. Certain things will have to happen though.

The first thing we can guarantee is the tories will **** up brexit. They haven't been exactly competent in the previous three years. This is where reality will strike, attempts at getting a trade deal with the worlds largest trading bloc, will take longer than the December 2020 timetable allows, a lot longer. If they wish to conclude a deal within the timetable, then the demands from the EU will be greater. Other countries we wish to trade with will probably not sign deals with the UK until the nature of our relationship with the EU is confirmed, And then trying to trade with the US, China etc, and how one sided those deals will be. At this point some may start thinking that Britain isn't quite so great as they were led to believe...

At the same time all the usual tory stuff will kick in like Crumbling NHS, schools etc, and the folk in those constituencies that switched sides will realise they are once again being shat on and drift back to voting labour.

The Labour party. Plain and simple, it needs to be re-taken from the left. Due to the nature of the FPTP voting system, the labour party has a much more difficult balancing act to perform than than the tories, it has to appeal to working class voters, and to win elections, middle class voters as well. It can't do that as it stands. It will be made all the more difficult when Scotland leaves the Union.

If the ‘left’ ever wants to steer the U.K. again we have to accept the views of others, we’re supposed to the the open minded ones after all!

The left can be as bad as the right when it comes to accepting the views of others, The middle have been the worst offenders when it comes to accepting the views of others, literally liberal pacifism.

"I do not agree with what you say, But I defend your right to say it." And look where it has gotten us.

This is as old as the hills, but the saying goes "If you do not make the future for yourselves, others will do it for you." I'm sick of losing to these charlatans, liars, xenophobes, if you want it to be better, fight for it, and to use the phrase used by Boris and his gang when he became PM, "by ANY means necessary."

WTOs in trouble anyway with it’s trade resolution being stymied by trump, could even cause its collapse.

Which rules and regulations are we dumping?

Tampon tax.

One of my friends was an advisor for an MEP. His problem with the EU is that MEPs would regularly be required to vote on things about which they had no understanding, and were given very little time to gain any understanding due to sheer volume

Ahh like mays Borises withdrawal bill.

This is pretty much the same as any normal MP/PM it’s er why you have advisors to explain shit to you.

As a remainer I’m glad that this uncertainty phase is over.

Uncertainty over? You’re counting chickens there methinks.
The course we’re heading down means 10 years of uncertainty I’d say. Not necessarily followed by anything good (might be, might not)

Regarding non-EU immigration, I’d imagine they are referring to the migrant crisis in the Middle East and the subsequent migration through EU countries to the UK, and/or pressure put on the UK by the EU to take more migrants.

You do realise that a mix of military invention and climate change is really going to accelerate migration.

On reflection how do you think the tories will square the circle that is the puzzle of Brexit?

1. Keep inward investment from large multinationals that want easy/require access to the EU.
2. Make trade deals with the rest of the world.
3. Provide enough skilled and non skilled workers to drive our economy.
4. Protect our own industries and producers for being undercut.
5. Open borders in the UK
6. No border between s and n Ireland
7. Controlled borders between the UK and the rest of the world.
8. Reduce cost and bureaucracy
9. Make decisions and laws ourselves

Will they now be more pragmatic and do brexit in name only or go the whole hog and go WTO? I am discounting a unicorn Brexit but who knows?

A part of me is expecting a brexit in name only now as that is what a lot of people who support brexit are expecting even if they say something different. Then again real brexit does seem to be the choice of some.

Do we get duty free back? Was that the whole point anyway?

Putting on my berret, here's what I'd hope my president's reation to that would be:

1/ No chance, If you think that you can abuse your new position think again. You're not in the club anymore, access conditions aren't the same.
2/ If you do better than the EU in that you can forget 1/
3/ Best invest in education then
4/ So now you're going to be protectionist and still want 1/ and 2/ *laughs*
5/ That's your business but remember the Good Friday agreement and NI is not going to be a bcakdoor in the EU
6/ See 5/
7/ You can control them as much as you want, we'll have a few billion if you want us to keep controlling people leaving at our end though.
8/ But Brexit will increase it, But whatever.
9/ Don't expect to trade with us unless you respect our regulations.

That's why everyone sent to talk with Barnier gets back with egg on their face. A social dumping, fiscal dumping, cheap labour, unfair competition Britain; that's what Europeans see as the objectives of Brexit. I'm sure my president is fully aware of this and would like to get reelected.

Was going to ask this as a new thread but appreciate that there are lots already on here about brexit.

So, I have no real understanding beyond the rudimentary of the mechanisms that control interest rates but are we likely to see them pushing up as a result of brexit?

On reflection how do you think the tories will square the circle that is the puzzle of Brexit?

The Brexit that was sold to the gullible was "all the benefits of the club, plus extras, without having to pay the club subscription or abide by the club rules. Because you're special (British).". As remoaners have been pointing out since before the referendum, this is not possible. But to get the gullible to admit this requires them to admit both that they are gullible and have fallen for a con, but also that they are not special. So Johnson has to deliver a Brexit that is not too obviously catastrophic for Britain, and if he can do that the gullible will probably accept it, because it will be preferable to admitting the above. Which points to BRINO.

There is another option, which is a hard Brexit, maximum damage, blame the usual suspects, and use the resulting anger to fuel a full-on slide into fascism.

Right now, I think the chances of these two outcomes are about 50/50.

Lower immigration from within and outwith the EU.

1) Brexit will almost certainly lower EU immigration and vastly increase non-EU immigration. Brexit will bring literally the opposite of what they want.

2) We can already impose greater control on immigration and choose not to. We don't need to leave the EU to do that.

Fewer rules and regulations forced on us by an outside body. I have to say that I do agree with them on this

1) As a controlling member of the EU we already help create those rules, the notion that an "outside body" is imposing anything on us that we don't agree to or want is a myth. The EU is no more an outside body than Westminster is to Wales.

2) If we hope to trade with the EU27 post-brexit then we'll still have to accept those rules, we just won't have a say in making them any longer. Again, brexit will bring literally the opposite of what they want.

3) WTO = almost 300 other countries telling us what to do.

Less interference by lobbyists.

More accountability.

I have no idea what either of these are supposed to mean. Which lobbyists? What's not accountable currently? Pithy soundbites and no substance, something something sovereignty something.

Your friends are in for a shock.

@cougar, I think @GEDA was pointing out that these things cannot be delivered, isn't that what square the circle means?

which makes me wonder as to the wisdom of those in Parliament who let him have his election.

Well I did say that Swinson cared more for her own hubris than she did about stopping brexit but it's all academic now 🙂 She'll go down in history as the person who hammered the final nail in the coffin.

Brexit will almost certainly lower EU immigration and vastly increase non-EU immigration. Brexit will bring literally the opposite of what they want.

And the seeds of Johnson's undoing are right here. Without immigration the economy will tank, and the NHS collapse, two things he's promised to solve. He's given himself a no-win situation. Obviously he thinks that british white people, forced by a squeeze on benefits will step in to fill the gap, but I think he may have underestimated their lack of skills and/or ****lessness.

The British population could fill the gap, for sure, but they need a lot more investment in education, skills and experiences, and they need places to work in places they live. That's would take decades of investment. Of course, if the government had been investing in it for decades already instead of just leaving it to sort itself out, we'd be fine.

It's supply and demand. Cut off the supply of convenient skilled labour and demand will drive home grown supply (or technology). Cutting off demand for services will make a big difference. Our population should be in decline.

Boris can afford short term problems. He's got 15 years to sort things out.

Cut off the supply of convenient skilled labour and demand will drive home grown supply (or technology).

Or the businesses will simply move to where that labour already exists, because, you know, global.

Is Dazh still banging on about Swinson? As if Corbyn wasn’t calling for an election he couldn’t win for months, no, years, instead of the public having a referendum to settle Br3xit first, and then after that having a General Election, with the Br3xit weapon reduced in effectiveness for the Conservative Brexit Party campaign team.

Our population should be in decline.

Well, you'll get that result with your staggeringly genius plan. Those that haven't already died from curable illnesses will likely starve to death, unless soylent green is on the menu.

Is Dazh still banging on about Swinson?

You seem to have forgotten that the reason the election happened was because Swinson and the SNP broke ranks from the 'rebel alliance' because they thought they could benefit from favourable polling. The SNP were right so you can hardly blame them. Swinson however went against the advice of many senior lib dem colleagues, fuelled by hubristic fantasies that she could be PM.

Plus, when will the "we were alright before" brigade get it into their skulls that things take time?

We can train up a doctor say, or a teacher, with several years of education and training, at a cost of tens of thousands of pounds, or we can import one who's already qualified, immediately, for free. Which makes most sense?

Because we've already seen what happens with your brilliant master plan. When all the immigrant workers buggered off back where they came from, did the plucky Brits all jump up and go "fantastic, loads of opportunities for a summer job picking fruit"? No, they left it all to rot in the fields.

Or the businesses will simply move to where that labour already exists, because, you know, global.

Well, you’ll get that result with your staggeringly genius plan. Those that haven’t already died from curable illnesses will likely starve to death, unless soylent green is on the menu.

Who exactly is going to staff your utopian white British NHS?

You've thought about this, haven't you.

fuelled by hubristic fantasies that she could be PM

Well, that is true. But from outside the Corbyn bubble… him spending so damn long turning calls for a “public vote on Brexit” from within his own party into his own call for a General Election he could not win, especially before Brexit had either happened or been stopped, looks like similar hubris.

Who exactly is going to staff your utopian white British NHS?

I guess a look at the Japanese health service would be useful. They manage to exist as a country without a population ponzi scheme.

Cut off the supply of convenient skilled labour and demand will drive home grown supply (or technology).

That will take a decade or more, and really needs social transformation too. And ideally free university (whose policy was that again?) because the debt thing really puts people off a lot, even though it shouldn't because the current system is not a bad fudge even if it's not ideal.

The problem is that during that decade we will be ****ed, and we will lose investment and high-skill businesses, which will work against that aim. Companies cannot wait a decade for new recruits. It may be possible to make it work but it will need a HELL of a lot of management and investment. Is Boris up to it? I'm sceptical but I'll be happy if he is.

Brexit will almost certainly lower EU immigration and vastly increase non-EU immigration. Brexit will bring literally the opposite of what they want.

That happened almost immediately following the referendum.

I guess a look at the Japanese health service would be useful. They manage to exist as a country without a population ponzi scheme.

you mean the country with a well reported 'demographic time bomb'?

you mean the country with a well reported ‘demographic time bomb’?

We need to get away from infinite growth sooner rather than later.

That will take a decade or more, and really needs social transformation too. And ideally free university (whose policy was that again?) because the debt thing really puts people off a lot, even though it shouldn’t because the current system is not a bad fudge even if it’s not ideal.

The problem is that during that decade we will be ****, and we will lose investment and high-skill businesses, which will work against that aim. Companies cannot wait a decade for new recruits. It may be possible to make it work but it will need a HELL of a lot of management and investment. Is Boris up to it? I’m sceptical but I’ll be happy if he is.

I'm not convinced universities are the solution. If anything they're a problem. Little more than adult child care wasting years of productivity and teaching few anything useful.

You can learn more in your free time in a few months on the internet than on most degrees. More of that is the solution.

You can learn more in your free time in a few months on the internet than on most degrees.

Better pull my son out of his Paramedic Training then; he'll be able to pick it up off Google pretty quickly.

Better pull my son out of his Paramedic Training then; he’ll be able to pick it up off Google pretty quickly.

You can learn more in your free time in a few months on the internet than on most degrees. More of that is the solution.

Made me think of this

https://rochdaleherald.co.uk/2017/07/22/university-life-ofsted-investigation-sharp-decline-quality-graduates/

Don’t forget Cummings enduring love for the erg

Cummings has enduring love?

There was me thinking he was an unscrupulous psycho who cared about other people only as much as they were useful to him.