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Yep, Swinson has gone full egomaniac listening to her yesterday. LDs made a mistake in electing her as leader, she is dreadful and will be putting off anyone but an out an out A50 revoker.
will be putting off anyone but an out an out A50 revoker.
That’s half the country she’s appealing to.
Is anyone surprised at Swindleson?
Libs want a bit of power. History repeating itself. They used remain to grab the path.
Poll today - 57% regret the Brexit vote, but the Conservatives have a 16 point lead over Labour - confused? So are the public.
Some confusion yes, but many who regret the vote feel as it took place the result should go ahead, for good or bad. It's the Conservatives pushing on with brexit, a good part of the electorate want it done now and the polls reflect that.
I know people who fear Corbyn more than Brexit. That is why you end up with the above results.
a good part of the electorate want it done now and the polls reflect that
Another unicorn. Johnson isn’t offering to “get Brexit done”, he is pushing ahead with it dominating our politics for a decade. Still, if the electorate what it, and someone is pretending to be able to deliver it, nothing can go wrong, can it…
The country I chose to move to in 2004 is really not the country I thought it was. Quite disheartening. I imagine it feels worse if you’re actually born here.
Swedishmatt, you can come back you know. It's not without problems here, but we still have a lot of the things that made me want to leave the UK and never go back.
Libs want a bit of power.
How the hell do you think democracy is meant to work? People vote for the candidates that want to do things that they like. Therefore, candidates become electable if they promise to do the things that you want.
Am I missing something?
EU agree to Jan 31st extension - BBC
Molgrips - just calling out the LDs in the same way we do for endlessly for Labour and Tories.
LDs claim they can get a majority and revoke A50 - utter nonsense. Orange unicorns in the parlance of these forums
LDs will not do a deal with a Corbyn led minority Govt for 2nd ref - one of the most likely route routes to a 2bd ref
Is the conclusion that LDs are prepared to sacrifice any chance of remain for a few extra seats in Parly?
LDs need to be held to the same standards when criticising cynicism, hypocrisy and ridiculous claims as the other parties
Am I missing something?
Well people have been relentlessly attacking Labour for not deciding to sacrifice all to try and remain. So logically should expect the same level of frothing and raging about Swinson playing party politics at the risk of a hard brexit.
So logically should expect the same level of frothing and raging about Swinson playing party politics at the risk of a hard brexit.
Eh?
The lib dem/ SNP move is the ONLY route left to stopping Brexit
If they don't go for this now then Johnson will put his bill back, & the lexiters will vote it through with some amendments that Johnson will ignore/workround & we'll end up with his hard Brexit regardless
The labour alternative plan is what?
Sit there blocking a GE until the 31st Jan & we crash out, watching Johnson's poll lead climb daily?
I don't understand how the LidDem SNP plan works unless the result of a 9 Dec election is a Labour led Govt - quite possibly minority Govt supported by SNP and LDs - and a 2nd ref. LDs have stated again this morning will not support Corbyn led Labour Govt.
So how does the LD position stop Brexit?
I assume no-one is falling for the BS about a LD majority?
The lib dem/ SNP move is the ONLY route left to stopping Brexit
Please explain. From where I'm standing the only route to stopping brexit is via a 2nd ref. The lib dems have just abandoned that in favour of them winning a majority and revoking. Which is more likely?
LDs would demand a 2nd ref as price of coalition, with Labour
It's the only way now to prevent Brexit
LDs would demand a 2nd ref as price of coalition, with Labour
And JC to step aside?
the only route to stopping brexit is via a 2nd ref
And Labour is saying this comes after an election… so stopping the Brexit legislation going through parliament before an election has become the immediate and essential next step to stop Brexit.
I don’t like it, but it’s true.
LDs would demand a 2nd ref as price of coalition, with Labour
It’s the only way now to prevent Brexit
That is not LD policy. LD clear they will not form an alliance with Corbyn led Labour. Stated by Swindon over weekend, repeated this morning by LD MP
It may well be BS and posturing by the LDs but that is what I'm calling out
LDs would demand a 2nd ref as price of coalition, with Labour
Couple of points:
1. Hell will freeze over before Swinson enters a coalition with labour (and vice versa after the latest shenanigans)
2. The LDs won't have to demand a 2nd ref because it's labour policy. They're already signed up to it.
You can’t go into an election trying to get support from people who want to avoid Corbyn being PM (there are millions of those people) saying you will support Corbyn as PM. What the LibDems say is based on this simple and true premise.
I’m personally happy with Corbyn as PM. The way to shoot the LibDem fox is a referendum before an election. I think it also wins Labour support in Scotland, and makes a Johnson win at an election far less likely. Labour will move to this position fast this week I hope… it’s the only path to Corbyn becoming PM after an election.
The Corbynites know Labour will never win a GE with him in charge so they're holding out for a VONC and hoping he'll then be able to cobble together some sort of "emergency government" without having to go back to the electorate.
The way to shoot the LibDem fox is a referendum before an election.
And how is that going to happen?
Maybe - but doesn't stop us calling out LD bullshit, illogic and hypocrisy in the same way as we do for other parties
Especially the utter nonsense about winning a majority in Parliament
Past experience shows that the LibDems needs to be clear about what their policies are if they “win” (unlikely as hell) and how they are prepared to act if a coalition or s&d deal has to be made. Slamming them for doing so is very odd. It is basically saying that only two parties are allowed to put forward their preferred programme for government. Multi party elections (and perhaps governments) are here to stay I suspect, even if some would prefer it to be otherwise.
Is it really possible that there are the numbers for a 2nd ref vote? Torys will circle the wagons I fear, and Labour won't get all its MP's to vote for it.
There are “Tory” MPs who are against holding an election soon… they need to be persuaded that the choice is referendum or election… or they’ll choose can kicking rather than either.
The way to shoot the LibDem fox is a referendum before an election.
This I agree with. If the lib dems continue their flirtation with Johnson, I wouldn't be surprised to see labour tabling an amendment to insert a 2nd vote into Johnson's bill then guaranteeing support for it. If that happens the SNP will abandon the lib dems along with some tory rebels and the lib dems will be isoloated on the wrong side and probably forced into a u-turn.
Kelvin - fine - but LDs only policy is to stop Brexit. They were asked about other stuff on radio this am and just moved back to Brexit.
So a legitimate line of challenge is:
(1) you have no chance of winning a majority
(2) you will not enter an alliance with Corbyn Labour even for 2nd ref
(3) how do you stop Brexit which is your only policy aim?
LDs should not get a free ride anymore than Labour or Tories
'Leavers' suffer derision from 'Remainers' due to their lack of coherent vision over what Brexit should look like. However, the complete inability of Remainers to coalesce around a single strategy is really ****ing depressing. As long as BJ's opponents continue to play the man and not the ball, public opinion will stay in his favour and the probability of a hard brexit increases.
It's become a war of attrition and the hard leavers are winning.
@olddog … all those “what ifs” turn off the listener, so any political operator will just keep hammering the core message. It’s what “Get It Done” ministers understand and stick to.
You are right that we, the voters, want to know what kind of cooperation might come about if we get another hung parliament… but why aren’t representatives of the two main parties asked those kinds of questions? In interviews, the smaller parties need to do all they can to keep the topic on what their own platform is, rather than discussing the compromises required in multiple hypothetical post election scenarios.
Oh, go to the LibDem website to see all the other policies they propose. Plenty I disagree with, some I like… but don’t pretend they only have one policy just because one issue is immediate and all consuming (unfortunately) in politics right now.
I think it is a stronger, and more realistic position, for the LDs to say that they are likely to be in a position to hold Corbyn's/Johnson's feet to the fire for a 2nd ref if there is a minority govt.
But in this post reason world of politics reason or logic seem to superfluous
they are likely to be in a position to hold Corbyn’s/Johnson’s feet to the fire for a 2nd ref if there is a minority govt.
No need with labour, they've already agreed to a 2nd ref.
No need with labour, they’ve already agreed to a 2nd ref.
The obvious point being that but unless we have an election & they get into power they cant make one happen!
LDs would demand a 2nd ref as price of coalition, with Labour
It’s the only way now to prevent Brexit
Isn't that assuming no Tory majority?
Dazh - true I guess. Hence the illogical hoops the LDs are forcing themselves through
Lot easier for SNP as they can happily say they would support Labour 2nd ref as they will pretty much have Scotland locked down
The obvious point being that but unless we have an election & they get into power they cant make one happen!
Indeed. So why do the lib dems do everything in their power to prevent a labour govt? If they seriously wanted a 2nd ref, they'd be working with labour to maximise the chances of getting rid of Johnson. Can you honestly say they're doing that?
IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE LIBDEMS TO MAKE LABOUR ELECTABLE.
- signed a Labour voter in the last and next general elections
Indeed. So why do the lib dems do everything in their power to prevent a labour govt? If they seriously wanted a 2nd ref, they’d be working with labour to maximise the chances of getting rid of Johnson. Can you honestly say they’re doing that?
As Tories will never back Corbyn as even interim PM after a VONC
what possible other way than via GE is there to get rid of Johnson
It’s a conundrum alright.
Anyway, desperation may push Tory rebels about to lose their seats and Labour hold outs to back a referendum before we Leave the EU. The chances and the window are both tiny now… it’s the hope that kills you…
So we've had the extension offer, has the blond buffoon, as per Benn act, accepted it yet?
I'm with Kelvin - it's not LD job to get Labour elected. But they will get pulled for orange unicorns (LD majority) and inconsistencies with their no post election deal with Corbyn stance.
It is the Labour party's job to argue these points ( and that looks like the line of attack from McDonnell etc this am) and convince the voters
There is a real risk that Tories will benefit from all this, but that is politics
IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE LIBDEMS TO MAKE LABOUR ELECTABLE.
No, but if pretty much your only policy is "stop Brexit" then to be believable you need to act in the ways in which make that most likely to happen.
You can read Liberal Democrat policies here:
https://www.libdems.org.uk/manifesto
Why are people insisting they only have a Brexit policy and nothing else? Just lying or being lazy as it fits thier agenda? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
…you need to act in the ways in which make that most likely to happen.
Go on… explain your thinking…
Labour would still be against another referendum (even in theory) if the LibDems hadn’t received so much support in the elections earlier this year. Without pressure from the LibDems they won’t come in behind a second referendum in practise either. If the LibDems had just supported Labour for the last few years, how would that have helped?
IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE LIBDEMS TO MAKE LABOUR ELECTABLE.
Completely agree. But if they are honest about wanting to stop brexit then it's a tactical no-brainer to work with the only party providing an opportunity to do that. Are they doing that? No, the exact opposite in fact, which shows that they are more interested in their own political advantage at the cost of stopping brexit.
What are Labour proposing that the LibDems should support right now?
Talks to agree a timetable to put Johnson’s Brexit legislation through parliament?
A referendum, but only after an election which shouldn’t be called?
Voters need a clear and simple message.
Tories have theirs. SNP and LD too.
Labour have a flowchart.
And now the EU have said the WA won't be renegociated Labour new deal is not happening.
Backing an election on the 9th ensures no deal is of the table and Boris has failed his biggest promise.
Voters need a clear and simple message.
I wish remainers would make their mind up. One the one hand the referendum was bad and the result should be set aside because the subject was so complex you can't boil it down to a yes/no decision and voters couldn't understand it, but on the other the labour party should boil it down to a yes/no answer so that voters know what they're voting for. Which is it?
And now the EU have said the WA won’t be renegociated
They said that before repeatedly. What did they do?
The clear and simple message will come… once all other options have been killed…
• Labour Alternative Brexit
(killed by the passing of the years & EU exasperation)
• Post General Election Referendum called by a Labour government
(killed by Johnson successfully uniting Conservative Brexit Party voters by proposing a harder Brexit than May)
• Cross Party Government without Election
(killed by Johnson getting a new WA/deal that wins back votes of many anti No Deal rebel MPs)
That doesn’t leave much on the flowchart. What’s Labour’s next move/message?
feeling queazy
Kelvin. In terms of outcomes ( that move us on) I see only two
(1) GE, Labour led Govt (with SNP and maybe LD support if minority). 2nd ref, prob May/Johnson deal v remain.
(2) GE - Tory majority - Johnson deal is voted through
The third option is a hung Parly without enough seats for Labour, SNP, LD etc to form Govt. In which case rinse and repeat
…you need to act in the ways in which make that most likely to happen.
Go on… explain your thinking…
Why not agree to VONC with Corbyn as temp PM? That would get rid of Johnson and allow for a second referendum Which Labour have said they'd support if attached to Bojo deal
By not working with Labour and setting themselves up with the pretty extreme "Revoke completely" stance it makes it look like they are just saying whatever will give them the most support in a pre-Brexit election, but then not be in any position to actually deliver on those promises.
Maybe @olddog. But if so, why are LibDems and SNP being slammed for supporting an early general election if it stops the Brexit legislation completing before an election?
It’s all very confusing.
I’ve no idea who is making “the right” move in all of this at all.
@kiksy… what would the programme be for that government? Would it be Referendum and then General Election, both in first half of 2020? I think it should be, but it needs to be nailed down. It’s probably too late now anyway… Johnson’s deal wins back lots of Tory “rebels” who now are even less likely to support making Corbyn PM.
And now the EU have said the WA won’t be renegociated
Of course it will and as will any further extension requests get given. This could go on for many years yet, it is what the EU are best at.
It* won’t go past June 2020, for lots of reasons ignored by people not watching what the EU has to get on with next year.
[* A50 extension]
And if she did, Hopkins would go UP in my estimation.
We, European, have had enough.
The mood has changed.
Boris is supposed to be lying dead in a ditch.
Leaked memos are showing his true ambitions.
Boris and his government are on the ropes but still ahead in the polls.
It is really time for Labour to wake up and finish them off.
It is really time for Labour to wake up and finish them off.
You're right. It's time they got out their magic wand and waved it around and said the magic words. It's amazing they've waited this long. If they'd done so a year ago they'd be in power now and brexit would have been cancelled. The fact that they haven't done this only goes to prove they're rabid brexiteers with a secret agenda to get it through.
Or perhaps this is much more complex than many remainers (and brexiteers to be fair) refuse to accept?
I wish remainers would make their mind up.
My is made up. Revoke, or if there is insufficient support for that action then 2nd ref. Whatever it takes basically.
The fact that they haven’t done this only goes to prove they’re rabid brexiteers with a secret agenda to get it through.
It's not a secret agenda though is it? Corbyn is a leaver as it suits his particular socialist ideals to break with the EU and its rules. Strange how far left and far right seem to have similar aims. Something to do with authoritarianism I suppose.
What should Labour do
Well it's a nuanced situation because their support is mixed, so the only rational option is to hedge their bets, which they did. Sadly rationality doesn't win elections as we've seen. Remainers and leavers both being irrational here btw.
SNP and LD too.
Actually the LD position isnt clear.
Beyond their yellow unicorn of winning and then revoking their approach on a second referendum is even less clear than Labours. Nothing clear about what they will be offering.
Do the LibDems want to stop Brexit?
Now… do Labour?
There’s your clarity.
(I’m still voting Labour, but to pretend the LibDem position isn’t “clear”, when they are calling for Brexit to be stopped, as an attempt to distract from Labour’s lack of a clear intention, is just deliberate dissonance.)
LDs message is clear, they are against Brexit
This GE is last ditch effort before Johnson puts his bill up again & lexiteers vote thru his brexit (& they will despite DExEU leak showing they plan to move away from EU rights & protections)
What should Labour do
Labour leadership have been fence sitting for 3 years.... enough to push out 2nd Ref or remainers.
Why would anyone trust Corbyn now?
What should Labour do
If it were up to me at this point in time I'd be revisiting the Kyle-Wilson amendment with a 2nd ref before a new election. They could then go into that election on the platform they'd achieved their policy aims of preventing no deal and holding a 2nd vote to resolve brexit.
LDs message is clear, they are against Brexit
Okay how?
Leaving aside their yellow unicorn what exactly is their policy.
What is going to be on the ballot paper?
We know Labours position which is to provide a viable choice but what is the libdems.
How will they negotiate what will go on it.
Details are pretty important remember just how incompetent they were at the AV referendum.
If it were up to me at this point in time I’d be revisiting the Kyle-Wilson amendment with a 2nd ref before a new election. They could then go into that election on the platform they’d achieved their policy aims of preventing no deal and holding a 2nd vote to resolve brexit.
I agree that is what they should do. I even think that is what they will (try to) do very soon. You may say I’m a dreamer…
Not seen this posted here yet.
Tony Blair Labour Brexit position
ignore the messenger, listen to the message...
So why do the lib dems do everything in their power to prevent a labour govt?
Their doing everything they can to increase their vote share. Going into an election on the premise of supporting labour in a coalition just makes voters think, why vote LD I might as well just vote labour.
They know the same as us that they'll never form a majority goverment but they have to at least state that as an aim.
Okay how?
• Revoke A50
or
• Back Remain 100% in a referendum
Do you have a third way?
Lib Dem policy looks good to me. Revoke, and with them being neck and neck with Labour and the Leave vote being split between Con/BP they've got a chance of winning outright.
If they don't win, the overwhelming likelihood is they'll be doing the most remainy thing they can do since they've already kissed goodbye to the leave vote. They can hardly kiss goodbye to the other half of the population.
The most remain-y thing in some kind of coalition will most likely be a 2nd Ref with all its flaws.
Leave vote is split. Remain vote goes to Libdems.
LDs will have done extremely well if they get 30+ seats
So why do the lib dems do everything in their power to prevent a labour govt?
I can't imagine the LDs GAF about Labour or that Labour would GAF about the Libdems. [1] The whole point of Momentum Labour is that they don't want centrist votes any more, they're after full on lefties. The two parties are fishing in different pools. If you were trying to win potential LD voters over you wouldn't have Corbyn/Abbot/MacDonnel on your front bench.
[1] Although I accept they do, for reasons that are beyond me.
LDs will have done extremely well if they get 30+ seats
So where will the Remain [1] vote be going?
[1] ~50pc of the electorate.
they’ve got a chance of winning outright.
Yes, of course they have. Please can we have no more talk about red unicorns? If this is a common view among remainers then they've already conceded defeat and there's no reason to delay any further as it's only delaying the inevitable.
Have you noted the pattern: it’s always the Labour leader the Lib Dems can never work with (Gordon Brown, Ed Miliband, now Jeremy Corbyn) but never the Tory leader?
They won't work with either this time. If the LDs end up being in any kind of deal/pact with Lab/Con after the election the first condition will be Corbyn/Boris has to go.
Lots of people who are pro-remain really don't give as much of a **** as people on this thread seem to think. At a GE, I expect more Remainers will vote for the same party they always vote for than will vote tactically. Of course, there is some correlation between how you voted on Brexit and your political persuasion. Hence, votes will mainly be split between Labour and Lib Dem.