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Well they've agreed a delay - but how long remains to be seen.
Personally I would've kicked us out. I guess they see the change of feeling in the country but ironically don't wish to interfere with our internal politics.
Personally I would’ve kicked us out. I guess they see the change of feeling in the country but ironically don’t wish to interfere with our internal politics.
That would be a shortsighted move I think, as an institution the EU wants to keep it's members and the longer this drags on and on the less likely any other government across Europe will succumb to any future pressure from it's own population to hold a similar referendum. A couple of years ago one would hear talk of sections of other countries electorates being unhappy with EU membership. There is none of that now.
Hope they go for 2 years.
I had a sudden revelation a couple of days ago, and I'm cross that I didn't see it earlier.
Boris has been keen not to rule out 'no deal' as it weakens his bargaining position. And I thought, "well, the EU won't care, they probably assume that we won't be daft enough to actually do it and if we do then it'll cripple us a lot more than the EU27."
But it's not about that at all, is it. Removing no deal weakens his bargaining power internally. If parliament is presented with Boris' offer with the alternative - rejecting it - meaning we're going to crash out then a lot of politicians will potentially be terrified enough to just hold their nose and vote for it.
Hope they go for 2 years.
Best way to deal with it.
Tell the UK it's a 2-yr extension during which all normal EU membership rules, responsibilities and benefits continue as normal.
It whips the rug out from under the feet of the Government, puts the EU very firmly in the driving seat and brings an end to Boris' relentless "end of October" rhetoric.
Hope they go for 2 years.
Only options being discussed are 15 days and three months.
What the ____?!?
Duff survey questions - click bait headline - only idiots have fallen for it
But it’s not about that at all, is it. Removing no deal weakens his bargaining power internally.
That’s all it has ever been about. Under May as well as Johnson. Apart from the few “total deregulation screw manufacturing, farming and non-financial services” ERG type MPs… the rest of parliament is always being told “this deal is the only way to avoid no deal”… but it has never been true.
Boris has been keen not to rule out ‘no deal’ as it weakens his bargaining position
Of course. It's been his only bargaining power really.
only idiots have fallen for it
Whatever you say oh superior one. The results of the other questions, as regards economic sacrifices etc, seem to be very much inline with other similar surveys.
How about Boris stops shaking the Magic Brexit Money Tree on a cult that blatently makes the country worse off, revokes A50 and then offers £5k to every UK adult citizen that states their allegiance to Remain?
What a load of nonsense.
I’ll bite… no one is claiming that any significant portion of the population want violence, or think it will happen, or actively seek it… so that unherd piece sets up a series of strawmen to knock down.
The survey (and similar surveys) just show the price that many are willing to put up with, if need be, to get the ends they want… not that people want that price to be paid, or think that it will be paid.
Unherd’s target audience is soft right leaning idiots looking for justification for their own woolly thinking.
no one is claiming that any significant portion of the population want violence, or think it will happen, or actively seek it… so that unherd piece sets up a series of strawmen to knock down.
So what point were you trying to get across by posting "What the ______?" an article headlined
Most voters think risk of violence against MPs is 'price worth paying' over Brexit
There really is no sanity left on this thread.
Because, it isn’t a price worth paying, and thought more people would agree with that. I thought a dead MP would make people more cautious.
Removing no deal weakens his bargaining power internally. If parliament is presented with Boris’ offer with the alternative – rejecting it – meaning we’re going to crash out then a lot of politicians will potentially be terrified enough to just hold their nose and vote for it.
The EU are probably playing for remain via a 2nd ref - it'll make them look good and boost both our economies.
The best way to do this is to let the process run long enough to demonstrate that a 2nd ref is the only option; and as more problems come out of the woodwork to let remain sentiment build with the public.
So you think it is better to Brexit because Farage has been milkshaked
I had a sudden revelation a couple of days ago, and I’m cross that I didn’t see it earlier.
Boris has been keen not to rule out ‘no deal’ as it weakens his bargaining position. And I thought, “well, the EU won’t care, they probably assume that we won’t be daft enough to actually do it and if we do then it’ll cripple us a lot more than the EU27.”
But it’s not about that at all, is it. Removing no deal weakens his bargaining power internally. If parliament is presented with Boris’ offer with the alternative – rejecting it – meaning we’re going to crash out then a lot of politicians will potentially be terrified enough to just hold their nose and vote for it.
We never had any external bargaining position ...
Internal ... I don't think Boris cared until he was given his explicit instructions more recently.
I'm guessing not long before the "dead in a ditch" line.
the explicit instructions seem to be no-deal or no tax avoidance
We never had any external bargaining position …
No, the nice Mr Gove said we held all the cards!
Just a shame his card pack neglected all the high ranking cards in favour of a busted flush and a couple of jokers...
A majority of U.K. lawmakers opposed a no-deal Brexit, likely rendering the threat a bluff, for now. But European leaders such as Ms. Merkel thought such a scenario could become a bigger risk later, if Mr. Johnson won a national election with the parliamentary majority that he lacks now.
Thus, “Boris’s threat of a no-deal worked,” a senior EU official said Thursday.
Ms. Merkel soon overruled Brussels’ insistence that reopening negotiations was impossible. In her pragmatic view, Germany and Europe need the U.K. as an ally after Brexit, including on foreign and security policy. A train-wreck Brexit could generate deep and lasting acrimony that would weigh further on the unity of the Western world, already tested by the EU’s fractious relations with President Trump.
No, the nice Mr Gove said we held all the cards!
Just a shame his card pack neglected all the high ranking cards in favour of a busted flush and a couple of jokers…
Wasn't that "the day after the referendum we will hold all the cards" perhaps he meant for 24 hours only ... he wouldn't be lying would he and that just leaves stupid?
Agreed removing No Deal upsets the ERG & theyve been in the driving seat for some time
Yes EU reopened talks but Johnson gave up some hefty concessions to Ireland (completely betrayed DUP) to get it reopened
meanwhile
It seems if Parliament (Labour) dont agree an election in the next 11 days
it will be February before we do get one
https://twitter.com/alanjrenwick/status/1187633546107740161
as for 'we hold all the cards'
this tweet nailed that bit of Gove stupidity....
https://twitter.com/JohnnyPixels/status/779231997080309760
it will be February before we do get one
Not sure that follows Parliament is unlikely to go into recess until the school holidays so plenty of time to vote for an election in January. But this is the correct analysis which is why the SNP saying they wanted a VONC so they could have an earlier election was so funny.
So, when’s the referendum? I’m still thinking we leave in May, with a WA, after a vote of some kind.
Or after two, or even three votes.
kelvin
Subscriber
So, when’s the referendum? I’m still thinking we leave in May, with a WA, after a vote of some kind.
We're not leaving and never were.
JP
The more it snows
tiddly-pom
The more it goes
tiddly-pom
The more it goes
tiddly-pom
On snowing
And nobody knows
tiddly-pom
How cold my toes
tiddly-pom
How cold my toes
tiddly-pom
Are growing.
If there is one thing Brexit has shown, it's how few principled politicians there are in the major parties, and how rampant corruption is.
We need to hold our politicians to the same standards of conflict of interest as local councillors, not to a lesser one.
how few principled politicians there are
The problem you have there is, that a big chunk of the population have a very different idea about what a ‘principled politician’ is, and how they should act, to another big chunk of us.
Nice to see a vote of confidence in 'Global Britain' from those enthusiastic Brexiteers and owners of the Brexit mouthpiece the Daily Telegraph as they offload all their British Businesses
Looks like it : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50192912
Hang on, they have their man as PM… everything is going their way in the UK right now…
Maybe Andrex will buy the telegraph.
[i] The problem you have there is, that a big chunk of the population have a very different idea about what a ‘principled politician’ is, and how they sho[/i]
Is there a chunk of the population that find out that they've been lied to for over three years but consider the liars to be "liars with principles"?
And if so, just what exactly does a politician have to do before these people wake up and smell the coffee?
And people are asking why Corbyn is resisting an election.
Corbyn aside
Johnson will win the next election, we'll end up with his hard brexit & when we spend the next decade arguing over the much more complex Future Relationship to eventually get a far worse deal than we have now....
Somehow it will still be everyone but the brexiteers fault
You can probably close the thread right there.
Good old Swindleson... WTF is she up to now?
Can't see this ending well.
Are they after a few more seats at the expense of handing Brexit to Johnson?
Labour are only aiming to stay in opposition so it doesn't matter.
It matters in so far as timing and potentially giving the Tories a bigger majority.
Don't blame Labour on this one.
I don't blame Labour on their timing, I do blame Labour for being unable to put up a resistance to this shower of shit government though
I understand why Labour are saying "no election until no deal is off the table" - I don't understand why the Libs/SNP are saying "we insist the election be 3 days earlier than Boris suggested". You'd think a bit of solidarity amongst the opposition would be good right now.
I don’t understand why the Libs/SNP are saying “we insist the election be 3 days earlier than Boris suggested”
I thought that was in order to ensure we can't go out with No Deal before the GE?
Johnson will win the next election, we’ll end up with his hard brexit & when we spend the next decade arguing over the much more complex Future Relationship to eventually get a far worse deal than we have now….
Ah you’ll end up with his deal as it suits them to have a little delay whilst they finalise the ‘great’ new U.K.- US trade agreement.
He just needs some sound bites to prove how well it’s going or how the EU are being awkward but with a majority it doesn’t really matter.
Like the workplace pension scheme they’ll do the same for healthcare and before you know it your eating washed eggs and chlorine chicken.
(Possibly thou I’m not sure how the NI bits going down in the US)
How come those polls about voting intention never have the SNP in them? They have more MPS than the Lib Dems
A lot more MPs but a lot less votes. Such is our system.
I don’t blame Labour on their timing, I do blame Labour for being unable to put up a resistance to this shower of shit government though
One is a product of the other in any case. Any halfway competent and electable leader would be in power right now and not in this situation.
Bloody idiots.
I guess the real thing that worries me is that Scotland will get independence and then the maths makes it look like we will have tories in power for at least a decade, and corbyn will do nothing other than assist that.
Anyone else trying to figure out where else in the world would be better to live?
scotroutes
I don’t understand why the Libs/SNP are saying “we insist the election be 3 days earlier than Boris suggested”I thought that was in order to ensure we can’t go out with No Deal before the GE?
Isn't it to avoid the need for a 2/3 majority so they could then bypass Labour and get a GE with just a simple majority?
Anyone else trying to figure out where else in the world would be better to live?
I’ve considered my options, but actually despite all the brexit bullshit, there are very few places in the world I’d rather live (that I could afford). It’s easy to forget how good we actually have it relative to most of the world.
Grahamt1980 yes!
The country I chose to move to in 2004 is really not the country I thought it was. Quite disheartening. I imagine it feels worse if you're actually born here.
Ireland or Scotland (if they separate from the UK). Or Australia or Canada I guess. I could in theory move to the US with work but not entirely sure.
Back to Sweden likely not but never say never.
Anyone else trying to figure out where else in the world would be better to live?
“England made me and here I’ll stay, England made me let England deal with me.”
I will not leave my home because of these ****s. I will stay here and cause as much ****ing grief as possible.
https://twitter.com/angusmacneilsnp/status/1188202703203262466?s=21
My first thought was to agree with this SNP MP (& @Rone)… but what are the alternatives? A referendum clearly isn’t going to happen before an election. Revoke won’t happen without an election or a referendum. A Withdrawal Agreement that leads to a closer relationship with the EU won’t happen without an election. And it looks like an extension into next year isn’t going to happen without either an election or a referendum.
Ideally this all needs bumping into 2020 in the hope things calm down (and those stoking the fire in preparation for an election are miss-footed), and I presume that is what Labour are playing for… …but will the EU let us can kick without declaring a public vote of some kind? And if not… what vote will Labour back us having, and when?
but what are the alternatives?
The alternative is fairly simple. If the EU don't grant an extension, a VONC will have to be called this week and they'll have to get behind Corbyn as interim PM in order to get that extension before we crash out on thursday. I suspect this latest ruse by Swinson is a desperate attempt to avoid that.
@dazh I don't know where your idea that Swinson is the devil incarnate came from, but there really isn't any supporting evidence for it.
The EU will grant an extension. The only question is how long.
A GE needs to happen.
If the EU don’t grant an extension, a VONC will have to be called this week and they’ll have to get behind Corbyn as interim PM in order to get that extension before we crash out on thursday.
What persuades enough of the Tory ‘rebels’ to back Corbyn as PM… and, most importantly, what would the programme be? So, same question really… if we had a Labour interim PM… and the EU are holding off on granting an extension into 2020 ‘till we indicate we’re having a public vote… what vote are Labour proposing and when?
I thought that was in order to ensure we can’t go out with No Deal before the GE?
I'm feeling a bit thick this morning. Someone will have to explain to me how bringing forward a GE from 12th to 9th December avoids crashing out on 31st Oct.
The Johnson proposal is putting WA legislation through parliament after it has agreed to a general election on 12th December. It has ‘TRAP’ written all over it. SNP/LibDem proposal is to leave WA legistation ‘till after an election… which realistically means election ASAP.
I still think this is high risk (and instinctively feels like a mistake) but what is the alternative now?
Don't know how to link but good thread on Twitter from NS explaining their proposal.
It is only high risk because Labour are fence sitting.
I'm hoping for a minority Labour government post election with LD / SNP holding Magic Grandad by his freetrade nuts. It's the only way we are going to get a second referendum.
There's a decent article from Kevin McKenna in the Observer about how Johnson would actually be happy for an independent Scotland - huge electoral advantage to the Tories in the rest of the UK.
Many English brexit voters would be happy to get rid of Scotland.
I did wonder why the Tories were so against an independent Scotland back in 2014 considering how good that would be re: seats etc. I figured they knew Scotland had some essential contributions economically, but maybe they just didn't want to be embarrassed. And noone gets embarrassed in politics now
The Johnson proposal is putting WA legislation through parliament after it has agreed to a general election on 12th December.
But parliament isn't going to agree to one is it?
I’m hoping for a minority Labour government post election with LD / SNP holding Magic Grandad by his freetrade nuts. It’s the only way we are going to get a second referendum.
Would be nice, but the pollsters have changed their methods and I doubt they'll see the same underestimation of labour as last time.
Johnson is a serial bullshitter, but he tells people what they want to hear & a lot seem to love it regardless.
Johnson is a serial bullshitter, but he tells people what they want to hear & a lot seem to love it regardless.
Populism. It works for people who won’t or can’t think too much.
A GE won't fix this. It'll be all about Brexit, ignoring all the other issues the country needs to deal with. We'll most likely end up with a minority government or coalition and the dance will continue.
SNP want a GE because they smell Tory blood in the Scottish waters and it will help their push for Indyref2.
LibDems want a GE because of all the moderate votes they hope to pick up.
Labour don't want a GE because they are going to get battered and they know it.
If you’re looking through that Opinium polling to work out the way forward… good luck…
https://twitter.com/benatipsosmori/status/1188435443538419713?s=21
Just making the same point - people are confused and conflicted ( and that the outcome of polls is really influenced by the way the question is asked).
It's like Schroedinger's electorate... We will not know until there is a referendum or GE
It’s like Schroedinger’s electorate… We will not know until there is a referendum or GE
GE isn't going to help. Partly because of the FPTP voting system, partly because it'll be the same shower of incompetents in marginally different percentages trying to get their idea of Brexit through a hung Parliament without any majority on any side to give anyone any advantage.
GE & Ref on same ballot gets the crap out of the way
GE & Ref on same ballot gets the crap out of the way
Good idea but for some reason there is a requirement for many moths notice before a referendum to give everyone the chance to be told about the pros and cons of a single issue. Whereas an election can be held with a couple of weeks notice as no issues to worry about with the numerous different policies and complexities of the various parties.
Good idea but for some reason there is a requirement for many moths notice before a referendum to give everyone the chance to be told about the pros and cons of a single issue.
Yep takes a while to vinyl up the bus.
The country I chose to move to in 2004 is really not the country I thought it was. Quite disheartening. I imagine it feels worse if you’re actually born here.
Yep the unheard 16.1M unwilling passengers being driven along in the bus 🙂
It's ok we don't need to worry. The LDs keep telling us they will win a majority and revoke A50...!