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surely this is a opportunity for some enlightened humanists to start a new party.
I genuinely think it wouldn't get anywhere. Most people (not STW) have made their peace with the fact that we're leaving. Most can see that there are up and down sides to this, and the "Utopian" views that both sides express on here is just a parlour game, rejoining the EU won't solve everything (as some seem to think), and when we leave it will will impact the economy and people for 20+ years, and TBH anything could happen in that time, which may make leaving look like either the biggest act of self mutilation or the luckiest swerve in history.
It was a reckless gamble that history will rightly castigate Cameron for, but for lots of people the EU thing is done.
SNP just need a wing that drops the nationalist part, and gets involved across the UK.
Unfortunately the masses are of the opinion that they were entirely to blame for every misdemeanour encountered during our brief flirtation with a coalition government.
Yep, those would be the binary thinkers.
So we end up with Labour delivering Brexshit - Jezza will be delighted at the strength of the underground momentum
When your only reason for carrying on with the current shambles is that the other lot would be worse it's not a good sign.
Britain needs a new political party. France got one in a year, surely this is a opportunity for some enlightened humanists to start a new party.
Totally agree in that we need a centralist party, which is where the Lib Dems should be. I have no faith in any party at the moment so for the first time, since I've been able to vote, I can't find a party I would vote for which would only give me the protest/blocking option which still gives credence to a party I don't agree with either.
The problem is that the UK needs a better standard of politician. There are politicians I admire from all parties but none enough to back their party.
Lib Dems failed nearly all my criteria the last time I looked at their manifesto and sided with the Conservatives who fulfil non of my criteria at present.
The SNP do better, TJ. The "N" in the middle makes me feel uncomfortable but Scotland is a lot better on public services, education in particular.
Semi-playing of course!!
I’m a remainer - why would I change my vote? But think that you are being selective with your polls (not that it matters)
Doesn’t matter what I think. I was in the minority. My side lost.
Leave - we have had two votes on the issue - a referendum and a parliamentary vote - time to execute the results. Not my choice but as above, I’m in the minority here and my side lost the argument. Tant pis but I’m a democrat
Basic problem is our fptp system makes it all but impossible for alternatives to get a look-in. See also USA. Of course the SNP does challenge my view a bit.
Basic problem is our fptp system makes it all but impossible for alternatives to get a look-in.
Good. Look at the mess we're in right now with a minority nutter party able to call the shots. I do not want that to be the norm.
how bad must the oppo be??
The issue is deeper than that - Corbyn / Labour can't / won't stand on a policy of reversing Brexit because 1/ will of the people / undemocratic but particularly 2/ it will alienate swathes of their core vote, the hard-working man that is (gross oversimplification) putting control and immigration above economy and security. So that when the dust is settled they are still relevant to that section.
So for now they simply aren't playing..... let the Tories screw it up, and then we'll see what the polls say.
It's wrong because despite understanding and respecting that as a nation we voted out, I'm still of the opinion that as the situation develops we should be able to reconsider if the path we're following is the right one. And i know the libDems stood on a policy of cancelling the whole show and got no support but - I mean, the LibDems!
Ed's calls for a new party are spot on - I said the same 18 months ago - but our politics is too ingrained, too 2 party tribal where people cannot allow themselves to consider other alternatives because it would be a betrayal of their working class / middle class / delete as applicable roots. I had hoped this might be the shake up that would change it, I now suspect not.
Good. Look at the mess we're in right now with a minority nutter party able to call the shots. I do not want that to be the norm.
Then look at proper coalition, what you have now is a minority government.
Tant pis but I’m a democrat
Well, sort of.
Anyway, yes two votes, both prior to the fundamental heart beat of our democracy, the GE, so neither can claim primacy over the present parliament.
That said parliament are, as you pointed out, lacking in leadership so they will just muddle along on their present course, ignoring the apparent fact that public opinion has changed.
A link to those selective polls - they’re trackers across a variety of organisations and they’re surprisingly consistent.
First 4 are probably most interesting.
https://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/uk-poll-results/
Edukator - remember the N stands for national not nationalist
Indeed two sorts
True
True when it suits
I am on the first category 😉
You?
Intersting to be getting pro-EU ads on YouTube “promoting EU diversity”, doubly interesting that the pro-EU news service Politco.eu is running a “so white” campaign highlighting the all white, all male make up of many EU bodies including those from Germany for example.
[url= https://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-blind-to-diversity-whiteout-european-parliament/ ]Politco: Brussels is blind to diversity[/url]
Democracy and referendums etc.
Picture explanation
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The EU Referendum
[img] 
[/img]Democracy and real life
One is a snapshot in time the other is time moving along and things changing (one could say a series of still images put together to create the illusion of movement)
Stuff changes, you have to deal with it unless you're a teacher/elbow patched lecturer who doesn't want to update his handouts an acetate's
N stands for not what we do (badly), only what we say (very different eg health and education inequality)
But at least the SNP might now be looking at raising income tax after all. Bit of a turnaround from being advocates of competing on lower tax rates than rUK. But consistency is not part of their DNA is it!
And as of this week there is the promise of democratically elected representatives having a say on the final deal. 12 rebels so far, many more to come I think, I hope.
We had that last week too
teamhurtmore - Member
Indeed two sortsTrue
True when it suitsI am on the first category
You?
Oh I’m in the first category on that basis, not sure about you given you possibly were “true” in July 2016 but not now - I think that’s the second group.
But at least the SNP might now be looking at raising income tax after all.
That'll be the end of them next election. 😯
So does the "N" in FN, BNP and a few others:
[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_nationalist_parties_in_Europe ]Nationalist parties in europe[/url]
5thElefant - Member
But at least the SNP might now be looking at raising income tax after all.That'll be the end of them next election.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/two-thirds-brits-willing-to-pay-more-tax-to-fund-nhs-poll-kings-fund-a7951361.html
Two in three Brions are willing to pay higher taxes to order to properly fund the NHS, a new poll has found – a significant increase in the number previously prepared to do so.The research, carried out by Ipsos Mori on behalf of the King’s Fund think tank, found 66 per cent of respondents would be happy to pay more “in order to maintain the level of spending needed” for the health service."
In contrast, just 20 per cent are in favour of spending cuts to other key services such as welfare and education to boost funding for the NHS, while just ten per cent believe the health service should reduce either its range of services or the level of care to balance its books.
Not everyone thinks just about themselves
2/3 willing to pay more
40% pay none
Easy to talk about others being taxed more though!! Talk is cheap
Not everyone thinks just about themselves
No, many people don't like the idea of the state helping themselves to other peoples money. The selfish are fine with it.
the pro-EU news service Politco.eu
Jamba - the pro-EU news service Politico.eu (spelling) has according to Wikipedia “maintained an independent stance regarding the affairs of the European Union (EU)” at least under its former name.
A quick scan of the articles suggest that’s not far off.
The fact you see it as pro-EU tells us more about you than it, though to be fair you’ve never really hidden your brextremist views (no deal, vote WTO, etc)
[quote=teamhurtmore ]No services is another obvious example. The UK has been at the forefront of regulatory developments in financial services and our regulation is closely aligned with EU..........
t.
I seem to remember it was the common regs affecting the investment industry that were one of Jambas main reasons for his dislike of the EU. Plus the fear of upcoming regulations concerning tax evasion coming from the EU might be part of the hidden agenda behind the right wing push for Brexit. Maybe?
40% pay none
Are you sure you aren't confusing "tax" with "income tax".?
2/3 is a majority and able to push tax policy onto others.
A well funded NHS is cheaper for people who earn more as they can save on their private HC, nice to come back to a system where I don't have to pay to see a GP or £50-60 for some prescription medicine.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/may/27/tax-britons-pay-europe-australia-us
and what's that the UK is fairly low tax anyway?
anyway there was a vote about tax rates once, no way anyone can change them now
[b]Respect Democracy[/b]
Those who pay no income tax pay a higher proportion of their income in tax than than high rate income tax payers. Becuase they pay tax on just about everything they spend. And before you say food isn't taxed I suggest working out the percentage of tax in the cost of production, distribution and retailing of say a bag of potatoes.
An equitable tax system is based on abiltiy to pay which is where most systems and especially the British system fails.
Without a fair tax system to distribute wealth the rich will get richer and the poor poorer until the poor have nothing. Check the proportiona of wealth owned by the richest 1% and 5% in any country and you'll find this to be the case. The system robs the poor and allows the rich to accumulate wealth.
[img] 
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[img] 
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on a more festive note:
[url= https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4732/39018612322_97f9bf9917_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4732/39018612322_97f9bf9917_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/22rWA4d ]DQ94BvBXUAAxLJ_[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/82598458@N05/ ]jamesanderson2010[/url], on Flickr
HH correct -probably in both counts (but good to pop t out slightly sloppy language)
Unsurprisingly Ed, you are wrong about the UK failing, we have a highly progressive tax and welfare system which addresses the pretax inequalities plus income inequality has been falling in UK. So double fail. But apart from that....as you were
plus income inequality has been falling in UK.
Selective use of stats to distort no doubt but as you never link a source we'll never know.
From 1918 to 1979 the share of income going to the richest 1% declined. Since 1979 it's risen. I don't doubt there were (or even have been) short periods of counter-trend movement but the trend since 1979 is the rich getting relatively richer.
The Tories on this thread read like the "Tory Jesus cartoon" parodies. Google that if you want examples.
Incone inequality has fallen since the GFC - official stats show this.
Your LT trends are correct but not unique to UK and do not support your argument
The UK does not fail. We have a highly progressive tax and welfare systems that works very well.
Inconvenient facts and all that.
Do [s]The Tories [/s] remoaners on this thread read at all [s]like the "Tory Jesus cartoon" parodies. Google that if you want examples.[/s] ? 😉
Scotland is a lot better on public services, education in particular.
Seriously?
Incone inequality has fallen since the GFC - official stats show this.
So, as you're the one making the assertion, post the effing source. It's not hard, I mean you must have read it.
That’s the official line you are meant to believe
Certain folk get a wee bit sensitive when you look at the actual facts - education a top priority too!!!
That’s the official line you are meant to believe
Given that you couldn't lie straight in bed, I'll pass, thanks.
And as for:
education a top priority too!!!
What are your qualifications?
GFC
Georgia Fried Chicken?
Global financial crisis 😉
I’d discounted that as far too obvious. 😉
Good Friday Crisis?
The UK does not fail.
Well that depends on how you define fail. You are an economist after all, not a humanitarian.
1,000 more homeless people this year. Is that not a failure?
NHS struggling, is that not a failure?
Poverty rates rising after having fallen - is that not a failure?
It does mol.
Very odd distinction that you make there but I will let you off
Edukator who is going to pay your pension with 25% youth unemployment ?
@molgrips despite all France’s taxes Govt asked that all non emergency surgery was postponed last winter, sound familiar. Also the Tory “dementia tax” is exactly how care of the elderly works in France where they even means test the children if the parents can’t pay. Humanitarianism has to be paid for, ie economics.
So the amendment was passed basically as Dennis Skinner and 1 other long standing Labour eurosceptic voted with Corbyn.
Looks certain the EU will agree sufiicient progress even though the UK has pointed out it has legally agreed just about nothing. As Kate Hoey said on TV the UK has put then in a spot and they’ve folded. Sufficient progress never really meant anything did it ?