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The SNP money tree can’t be any worse than the Labour / Tory / LD one.
With a hard Brexit it’s hard not to see a second Scottish referendum and a leave win. My parents and brother live in Scotland (& voted remain both times) and they would vote leave if it gave a chance of rejoining E.U. I’d be trying to get a Scottish passport...
Yeh the whole Scottish independence thing is a huge issue, the first Scott ref was in the context of the UK in the EU.
Now the goal posts have moved to put it lightly. The Scotts are being taken out of the EU and losing thier rights in the process.
It's completely legitimate to hold another Scott ref to leave the UK. Things have changed.
Filthy collaborators now...
https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-accuses-mps-and-eu-to-collaborate-to-block-brexit-11785259
Interesting how Boris is picking formats that allow him to talk shite without being questioned. Still 'democracy' and 'taking back control' etc
This is also quite a good read: https://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-we-cant-prepare-for-no-deal-nearly-as-much-as-you-might-think-11784954
I' m really hoping one of the brexit faithful will be along to cheer me up with some alternative facts.
Watching channel 4 news from Derry, it’s clear that in the event of no deal, then it’s going to go off again in Ireland. It’s a certainty.
All parties in Ireland, North and South, Catholic and Protestant, seem to be in agreement on that.
A great phrase used by one of the blokes interviewed about Boris Johnson:
“Some people’s ignorance is a small gap in their knowledge, Boris Johnson’s knowledge is a small gap in his ignorance”
Nicely summed up
Oh look - Westminster tories caught talking mince about scotlands finances again!
Note the source, have y9our pinch of salt ready but Truss has been caught
https://www.thenational.scot/news/17834812.tory-minister-caught-lying-scottish-budget-cuts/?fbclid=IwAR1sktEIGCBxI5tzc9wI4FpF3Bc6zz1B5t_5GMHsVJXIaQPP4SQQarPA4Pc
Not really the thread for that is it TJ?
Not really but I thought eat the pudding might like it
In other news 20 labour MPS are proposing to try to get a vote for mays deal! this is because they do not want Remain. Funnily enough led bty Kinnoch junior - a rightwinger and staunch blairite! This is instead of a second referendum which is labour policy!
So yes - its all Corbyns fault
This is likely to be a key development, and should be posted here I think…
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1161751909788782594?s=21
What’s this? A letter? Offering a second referendum and a remain option? With his signature!
Can we please put this to bed now?
The choice is now with the Lib Dems and anti-brexit Tories. No deal or a second referendum delivered by Corbyn. What’s it to be?
I think they’ll look for a way to avoid no deal without making Corbyn PM first (not that I can see anyway they’ll succeed in that).
That letter is enough for me to vote Labour again if they manage to get that election. Not sure it’s enough for them to win a majority though.
Ffs Corbyn.
3 f****** years!
Where were you?
I desperately want to vote Labour and will. Why was it mate this hard though?
I desperately want to vote Labour and will. Why was it mate this hard though?
Same reason this thread couldn't reconcile itself.
Public voted for something related to leave, MPs couldn't deliver majority vote on anything; and the machinations of parties trying to exist in a low majority Government ready to topple.
Corbyn had to wait until there was a Tory minister crazy enough to pursue no deal for there to be a point in blocking it.
That's in their 2017 manifesto.
Of course we will be maintaining our food standards as promised: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49353220
Ffs Corbyn.
3 f****** years!
Where were you?
I desperately want to vote Labour and will. Why was it mate this hard though
Agree with Rone.
I've been hugely frustrated by Corbyn but in reality he had to let this play out as it has. The Tories needed to get to this point to get the tide turned against them.
Is the “tide turning against them” though, or have they managed to move from…
Leave EU > Leave Single Market > Leave Single Market without a deal
…successfully in the last few years, and taken an awful lot of the country with them?
Li9b dems still holding true to their yellow tories. Swinson refusing to rule out a deal with the tories, refusing to do a deal with labour unless Corbyn goes. so much for principles. If anti brexit is so important then surely Corbyn is a price worth paying?
Swinson simply staying true to her tory lite philosophy. Well it will not wash Swinson. We can see thru you. She would rather have brexit than leave Corbyn as PM in a short term caretaker government
(psst - if you wanted Corbyn as PM, why didn’t you vote Labour at the 2017 general election?)
He would rather have brexit than have any Labour politician other than himself as PM in a short term caretaker government
There needs to be some compromise here, dirty or otherwise. If it’s not realistic to get Tories (yellow or otherwise) to vote for a caretaker Labour PM if it’s Corbyn, but it is if it’s someone else… why not propose someone else?
(psst - will you be joining me in voting Labour in a snap general election TJ?)
There needs to be some compromise here, dirty or otherwise
Sounds good.
why not propose someone else?
Ah so by compromise you mean Corbyn does want they want?
The SNP and Plaid Cymru counter suggestions seem sensible and would be the sort of thing to negotiate about. Either get the referendum in first or put extremely strict time limits on the temporary government. Simply throwing the hands up and saying no way shows a certain lack of willingness to compromise.
I will be voting tactically. Depends on my local candidates and what the polls say. My seat is unusual in that its now a 3 way marginal ( SNP. Labour. conservative). Vile SNP incumbent. labour candidate tarnished by his time on the council last time. I cannot vote for either. A liar and a carpetbagger or a corrupt buffoon complicit in a rip of of thousands of edinburgh folk. Maybe we get a decent labour candidate?
Gonna be a tricky decision. Brock is so vile I will never vote for her. Munro is a at best a hopeless stooge for corrupt building firms. Of course the tory is beyond the pale. Lib Dems are nowhere so that would be a wasted vote
From a wider point of view labour or SNP makes little differnce in reality.
Ah so by compromise you mean Corbyn does want they want?
By compromise, I mean that if MPs from other parties are prepared to make a Labour MP the caretaker PM, but don’t want it to be the leader who they will be up against in a general election, then Labour should grab that opportunity to get the election they have been calling for consistently since 2017. They then get to campaign in that election to get a majority and make their chosen man PM.
If the LibDems or Tory rebels insisted on an MP from one of their own parties (or even an independent) was the caretaker PM, I can see why Labour might be miffed (I still think Lucas would be a great choice, but there you go)… but if they’ll back a Labour MP who won’t be leading the campaign in the snap election… why not go with that to get the election and seek a mandate?
The libdems have failed at the first hurdle. Their single policy has been no brexit by any means necessary. Now their is a solid proposal from the opposition leader to achieve that it seems that's not their policy any more and instead it's no brexit as long as there is some political benefit for the lib dems. It's like 2010 all over again.
I cannot vote for either
so wait, you've been telling every one on this thread who's expressed their reluctance when it comes for voting for Labour (and by extension Corbyn) how ignorant and short sighted they're being, and yet you express exactly the same reservations when it comes to your own choices?
hypocrisy much?
Now their is a solid proposal from the opposition leader
Whose been solidly opposed to the E.U. all his life.....& you want to vote for him in the hope he’ll change the habit of a lifetime & embrace the E.U.?
🤔🤥
you want to vote for him in the hope he’ll change the habit of a lifetime & embrace the E.U
He's not offering to embrace the EU, he's offering a cast-iron opportunity to avoid no deal, followed by an election, and a restatement of labour policy to offer a second referendum with a remain option. Do you want to stop a no deal or do you want Corbyn to say he's pro-EU? Which is more important?
NOpe -
There is a particularly scottish element to this ie the SNP and also the behaviour of labour in Scotland. Then there is the fact that the actions of the last labour candidate in part cost me 17 years of legal battles and tens of thousands of pounds and billions to Edinburgh council tax payers
Then there is the fact that from a brexit point of view there is little difference SNP or labour. ( SNP stronger anti brexit but weaker politically)
You might also note I continually propose tactical anti tory voting.
In an English constituency without these particular local issues I would vote labour or lib dem ( or whoever) had the best chance of beating tories in a marginal. In a safe seat it does not matter.
IN my constituency the anti tory choice is not easy. SNP a liar who has refused to help constituents or the last labour candidate who helped cover up massive corruption that has cost me personally a lot.
In this highly flawed FPTP election given Edinburgh and scottish dimensions then its not an easy choice. If there looks to be a tory surge ( doubtful) then I will vote for the candidate most likely to beat the tories. If there is no tory surge then I really do not care which of the SNP or Labour win and that choice has little bearing on brexit
Edit - if Mark Lazarowicz was still the labour candidate I probably would vote for him. Or if we had a decent SNP rep like my MSP I would probably vote for them.
the choice really is between would you like your backside booting or your shins!
The libdems have failed at the first hurdle. Their single policy has been no brexit by any means necessary. Now their is a solid proposal from the opposition leader to achieve that it seems that’s not their policy any more and instead it’s no brexit as long as there is some political benefit for the lib dems. It’s like 2010 all over again.
The LibDems are the alternative offering for any constituency where Labour has absolutely no chance of winning such as mine (Cheltenham). That Labour have come out as No Conf./Referendum/Election simply means that Labour Remainers can now support them with a clear conscience. It will muddy the marginals but I can only see it as a good thing. So long as it gets publicity and some money behind it. Not necessarily in that order.
Anti bexit / anti tory tactiual voting is the key - not some sort of ideological purity. ( so long as your candidates are not vile or corrupt
It's completely sensible to say Corbn shouldnt be leader of a caretaker govt; A Govt. Nat. Unity will need the tory rebels on board. I can't sen them voting Corbyn in. The sensible thing in my mind would be a prominent labour frontbencher (given that labour are the second largest party), the obviosu choice would be Keir Starmer. However I can't see Corbyn and crew accepting that.
Seems obvious to me as well.
How would you feel if the price from labour for accepting a national unity government was that Swinson goes as leader of the lib dems?
How would you feel if the price from labour for accepting a national unity government was that Swinson goes as leader of the lib dems?
This is the crux of it. Corbyn's opponents in both the libdems and labour are using the threat of no deal to try to remove him as labour leader. Not sure why the libdems are doing that as if he's so useless they stand to gain. I suspect they are more afraid of an election, as they won't want to lose their newly acquired turncoats like Chukka.
According to that poll of Tory party members a little while ago, Corbyn in power was pretty much the only price they wouldn't be willing to pay for Brexit.
Could be the Tory's bogeyman portrayal of Corbyn might end up doing some good after all.
Anti bexit / anti tory tactiual voting is the key – not some sort of ideological purity.
I agree with TJ....
I’m going to need a lie-down!
Do you want to stop a no deal or do you want Corbyn to say he’s pro-EU? Which is more important?
In an ideal World the back of Corbyn completely would be my preferred option!
So you'd prefer a no deal brexit to Corbyn as PM?
In an ideal World the back of Corbyn completely would be my preferred option!
Then you can deal with that through a G.E which is on offer.
How would you feel if the price from labour for accepting a national unity government was that Swinson goes as leader of the lib dems?
Corbyn doesnt have to go as leader of labour; he just has has to throw offical labout support behind a govt. Nat. Unity lead by someone else; that's what she is sugesting: https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/news/105931/jo-swinson-says-ken-clarke-or-harriet-harman-should-lead-unity
None of the current leaders should lead a Govt. Nat. Unity; otherwise it is skewed beyond its purpose. Surely that makes sense to everyone??
The squabbling just increases chances of no-deal. The only way to stop it is for someone (KC, HH as per article or KS (my choice!)) to pcik up the standard, stand forward and say 'If there is a no confidence vote I will lead a national unity govt'. Then we'll see if politicioans will put action behind words.
Someone is going to have to compromise. A caretaker PM who was a senior frontbencher in the past but now a backbencher retiring from the house in the forthcoming GE should be possible to find and should be the least threatening option for all.
Labour keeps Corbyn as Leader (if they want) and fight an election to make him PM. That election is called be an interim PM from the Labour Party who gets support from MPs from many different parties. Why is that so objectionable? Surely, “the man that no Tory wants as PM”, would be a positive message in that election campaign? No?
he just has has to throw offical labout support behind a govt. Nat. Unity lead by someone else
He also would have to resign and be replaced as official leader of the opposition prior to this being a possibility. Only the person who holds this role can approach the Queen and request the opportunity to form a government.
Labour keeps Corbyn as Leader (if they want) and fight an election to make him PM. That election is called be an interim PM from the Labour Party who gets support from MPs from many different parties.
Personally I wouldn't have a problem with it. As I've always said, my focus is on the policies not the personalities. However, you have to see it in the context of Corbyn's opponents using the brexit issue to depose him. It also goes against all convention, and there is no time to negotiate the agreements required between the different party factions.
There is also the problem of the fixed term parliament act. It requires a 2/3rds majority to call an election. It would require very few tories to kill an election once no deal is avoided, and we'd end up with a tory led govt for the next 3 years. You think labour will take that chance?
He also would have to resign and be replaced as official leader of the opposition prior to this being a possibility. Only the person who holds this role can approach the Queen and request the opportunity to form a government.
Then it's not really a debate about no deal is it?
It's moving into the real crux of the matter - the centrists don't want Corbyn. This has been the background argument all along here.
So you’d prefer a no deal brexit to Corbyn as PM?
I don’t trust Corbyn on the E.U. one bit.
He’s done nothing but facilitate Brexit since the beginning & he’s been a lifelong opponent of the E.U.
Why should I trust him now? We all know politicians have a casual approach to promises made..
& the choice is not binary - no matter how many times you repeat the question...& you know this but you can’t see past your tribal allegiance.
The arguments for/against Corbyn were a valid discussion to have six months ago, but are increasingly becoming moot. The rapidly diminishing pool of outcomes now means that anyone who is genuinely interested in stopping no deal, or Brexit, may have to work with what they've got.
I have little faith that what we've got, in any of the parties, is going to be enough, unless the leaders of all the anti no-deal parties, and the anti no-deal factions in the Tories, for want of a better phrase, get their ****ing acts together.
There is also the problem of the fixed term parliament act. It requires a 2/3rds majority to call an election. It would require very few tories to kill an election once no deal is avoided, and we’d end up with a tory led govt for the next 3 years. You think labour will take that chance?
Not if a Government can't be formed after 14 days - and a new Government can't win a VOC. (after the orignal VONC). I think.
He’s done nothing but facilitate Brexit since the beginning
apart fropm voting for remain. campaigning for remain speaking to more people at more forums than anoy other politician. apart from making several bids in parliament to gain control and prevent no eeal ( foiled by other labour mps) apart from agreeing a second referendum with a remain option
But yes - apart from all that and all the rest he =has done its all Corbyns fault
Not if a Government can’t be formed after 14 days
But a govt would have been formed, otherwise there is no way of avoiding no deal. Once a govt is in place with whoever as leader, they can request an extension from the EU, then call an election under the FPA, then it would need 2/3rds majority in parliament to enact. If a tory moderate is PM, can you see the tory moderates voting for a new election and risking a Corbyn govt?
Once a govt is in place with whoever as leader, they can request an extension from the EU, then call an election under the FPA, then it would need 2/3rds majority in parliament to enact. If a tory moderate is PM, can you see the tory moderates voting for a new election and risking a Corbyn govt?
Under what circumstances would a Tory moderate be PM? Choice is either Boris continuing after an unsuccessful VONC, or JC forming an emergency coalition govt after a successful VONC sequence. At which point everyone would want an election, the tories because they are out of govt, and Labour et al because they promised it.
It requires a 2/3rds majority to call an election.
An interim government would require new legislation to call an election based on a simple majority, and to change our EU exit date. Or the courts might be used if the government seeks to interpret the fix term parliament act differently to the way most read it (as Corbyn’s letter suggests).
Under what circumstances would a Tory moderate be PM?
None IMO, but that's what some anti-Corbyn moderates are suggesting with the likes of Ken Clarke or Dominic Grieve. I agree Corbyn is the only feasible option as a caretaker PM to avoid a no deal.
An interim government would require new legislation to call an election based on a simple majority,
I don't see why. The two-thirds would be achievable because, well, who would oppose it? The alternative would be a continuation of the 'interim' government to the end of the fixed term.
An interim government would require new legislation to call an election based on a simple majority
What if parliament doesn't vote that legislation through? You can only operate on the law as it is now, not what you hope it to be. As it is now, it would take very few tory MPs to kill a new election. Tory moderates would prefer to continue with an interim govt than allow either Corbyn or Boris to be PM following an election.
Corbyn on the E.U.:
1975 opposed membership of the EEC.
1993 opposed ratification of Maastricht.
2008 opposed the Lisbon Treaty.
2011 supported a proposal on a referendum on leaving the E.U.
2017 imposed a 3 line whip in favour of A50.
2019 imposed a 3 line whip against the WA (JC would prefer a Labour Brexit rather than a Tory one IMHO).
He may not be a full on (???) Brexiteer but he has no love for the E.U.
He may not be a full on (???) Brexiteer but he has no love for the E.U.
But do you want to avoid a no deal brexit?
What if parliament doesn’t vote that legislation through?
> sigh <
If an interim government can’t get legislation through the house in the Autumn (whoever is the PM) to call an election and change our date of exit from the EU… we still end up with an election… but No Deal can’t be stopped in time. That is why the VONC was required before the summer recess… so that if it ended up with no one having the confidence and support of the house, an election would be triggered and could be completed before our current exit date.
Most MPs have a chequered history with the EU and voting. Lot of flipping and flopping.
I think you've just got to take stock of where we are currently rather than trying to prove something or other to undermine Corbyn when the position is very clear today.
I personally don't care if it's a coalition of the reincarnated Charles Manson, Fred West and Harold Shipman as long as somebody gets stuck in and stops no deal.
But do you want to avoid a no deal brexit?
Yes, which is why I will & do vote LD. & not Labour when their leader has been a LIFELONG eurosceptic..
See? There’s another choice open to you ie not binary.....have a think about that for a second..
If an interim government can’t get legislation through the house in the Autumn
They only have to get a vote through to ask for (and presumably get) an extension to the brexit date to avoid a no deal. This will be the only business required of the caretaker govt. Once that's done they will call an election under the FPA, not some imaginary replacement that there will not be time to enact. Under the FPA they will require a 2/3rds majority. A minority of MPs could easily derail that to ensure the interim govt remains in place, hence why there is very little trust on all sides.
Yes, which is why I will & do vote LD.
And how does that avoid no deal?
Kelvin - there is still plenty of time for that.
Edit - or so Hammond ( and others) say
“I’m very confident that the means exist for parliament to make its voice heard and to pass legislation that gives effect to the clear view of parliament,” he said.
“It’s very clear to me, and the Speaker of the House of Commons has also been very clear, that if a majority of MPs clearly want to go down a certain route, a means will be delivered to allow that to happen.”
The Speaker, John Bercow, told an event in Edinburgh on Wednesday night that MPs did have the ability to stop a no-deal Brexit and said he would “fight with every breath in my body” to stop the prime minister from proroguing parliament to force through no deal without the consent of MPs.
Hammond said that to prorogue parliament or to attempt to hold an election after 31 October to prevent MPs expressing their will on no deal “would provoke a constitutional crisis”.
TJ you are going to have to vote on party lines if you hate all the candidates personally.
Re unity governemnt - should be led by John Bercow obvs.
Not really molgrips - if its a foregone conclusion in my consituency then no need to vote. If its not a ivote for the party most likely to keep the tories out
Given that Tories were in a reasonably close 3rd place last time and I suspect a collapse in their vote in scotland then my vote is not going to make any difference from a berxit point of view
The lovely and principled Swinson. will do anything to stop brexit so long as she does not have to even meet with Corbyn. I think this rather shows her true colours. she would rather have brexit than do a deal with Corbyn
Rebel Conservative MPs have agreed to meet Jeremy Corbyn to discuss how to stop Boris Johnson pursuing a no-deal Brexit, without committing to backing him as a caretaker leader.
The Tory MPs Dominic Grieve, Caroline Spelman and Oliver Letwin, plus the former Conservative Nick Boles, said they would be willing to enter talks with the Labour leader in the weeks before parliament returns from recess.
Their tone was very different from that of Jo Swinson, the Lib Dem leader, who dismissed the idea of Corbyn leading a caretaker government as nonsense and said the Labour leader would not be able to build even a temporary consensus.
she would rather have brexit than do a deal with Corbyn
Swinson the no deal enabler. She'll do anything to avoid an election, including accepting brexit. it's a pretty shocking betrayal of the remain cause.
That piece is a good summary TJ of lots of stuff going on. Worth reading it all.
The desire to boil this down to Swinson being the block on all that is sensible by some is very odd.
The desire to boil this down to Swinson being the block on all that is sensible by some is very odd.
But she is the block. Even the tories are willing to talk to him, whereas she won't even do that. What Corbyn has suggested is eminently sensible. Stop no deal, hold an election and let the people decide. What is Swinson's problem with that?
And how does that avoid no deal?
https://www.libdems.org.uk/brexit
You’re just getting boring now - don’t bother asking again as this is my answer. It’s unequivocal, unlike the fence-sitter extraordinaire..
I think the PC and ChangeName position of an interim government having a referendum before a general election is a good one as well.
Oh, I see nothing in that guardian article suggesting that Swinson won’t talk with Labour (including Corbyn) just that they are ruling out supporting him as PM. The LibDems are not ruling out talks… are they? Just ruling out talk about Corbyn being PM with LibDem support… something that LibDem members would probably block anyway (that party has to get these things agreed by their members) (not to mention Tory and ex-Labour MPs blocking Corbyn as PM).
Kelvin - everyone else will agree to discuss options without preconditions. Everyone apart from Swinson who makes it a precondition that Corbyn goes. Tory rebels, SNP, Plaid, Greens, all will go into discussions without preconditions. Swinson will not.
So anything to avoid brexit so long as she doesn't even have to talk to Corbyn.
Blackford making sense - and remember labour and the SNP have bitter emnity between them
“I believe that when we get back to parliament in the first week of September that we can bring forward legislation, we can do it through a mechanism called a SO24 application to stop no deal. And that is what we should be focusing on,” he said.
“It’s not about, in this immediate case, who is prime minister, it is about stopping that act of economic self-harm that all of us would suffer from.”
Just ruling out talk about Corbyn being PM with LibDem support…
Leader of HM Opposition as the default candidate? Yeah, crazy idea. Swinson is the problem here, and deep-down the anti-corbynists know it.
Blackford making sense
Yes, he is.
Sorry… what was the point?
Leader of HM Opposition as the default candidate?
Depends on whether you are after a cross party agreement to get us through the autumn, and avoid No Deal, or just see Brexit as the means to get Corbyn as PM.
And as for the “anti-Corbyn” comment … getting MPs on side who might not be “pro-Corbyn” is essential.
the point is that everyone except swinson will go into discussions without precondions. Swinson makes preconditions that Corbyn goes
This quote from blackford shows her hypocrisy
“It’s not about, in this immediate case, who is prime minister, it is about stopping that act of economic self-harm that all of us would suffer from.”
Are there any 'pro-Corbyn' MP's anywhere outside the labour front bench? The vast majority of his own MPs think he's a liability and he'd make a terrible PM, so getting any Tory's to back him is going to be harder than if it were any other Labour MP, with the possible exception of Dennis Skinner.
Pretty much any other politician would get support a lot more readily than Corbyn. Ironically its him and Boris who represent the 2 most marmite figures in parliament
getting MPs on side who might not be “pro-Corbyn” is essential.
Likewise it is essential to have those pro-Corbyn MPs onside who might be put off by voting in a right winger. Which will almost certainly be used to attack them later.
Lets face it the last time the Libdems enabled a government it didnt really go well for most.
Good to see this anything to stop brexit has lots of terms and conditions attached.
Depends on whether you are after a cross party agreement to get us through the autumn, and avoid No Deal, or just see Brexit as the means to get Corbyn as PM.
And as for the “anti-Corbyn” comment … getting MPs on side who might not be “pro-Corbyn” is essential.
The best way to get an agreement is Corbyn's proposal. He has the numbers and the means if Swinson drops her pre-conditions. Anti-Corbyn MPs will need to decide if they're prepared to pay the price of no-deal Brexit in order to prevent him from becoming temporary PM. If PC and SNP agree with Corbyn (as they may well do given their early indications) then the Lib Dems are going to be isolated - what then? Are they going to abstain in a VONC?
“It’s not about, in this immediate case, who is prime minister, it is about stopping that act of economic self-harm that all of us would suffer from.”
Makes sense. So no need for it to necessarily be Corbyn then? So that’s not going to be a pre-condition for any talks? Good.
He has the numbers
He does? So more MPs will back an interim government with him at the helm than would vote for an interim government with an alternative Labour caretaker PM? Is that your understanding of the situation?
It's amusing that that anti-no-deal side are just as useless and caught up with in-fighting and posturing than the no-deal team.
*sighes*