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and gain the trust of voters again.
Some voters. They will lose many too. Even with the ones they had they couldn’t win, so they can’t afford to lose any, especially in their core constituencies. You don’t win elections by pissing off your core tribal voters.
The labour movement has always been an uneasy alliance between the working class and middle class left-liberals. They are very different groups culturally and ideologically, but they agreed on the need for a govt that protects and serves those at the bottom. Brexit has destroyed that, and I don’t think there’s any way back. The result will be perpetual right wing govt outside the EU, probably with no deal and at the mercy of US vulture capitalists.
Labour offering a 2nd vote is virtue signalling which will achieve nothing. There have been 2 votes on a 2nd ref which labour whipped to support and both were lost. That won't change until a general election occurs, and if a 2nd vote is labour policy they won't win, so there's no chance of one happening. And even if by some unlikely chain of events a new vote does occur before an election, there's a significant chance it would be lost. And even if remain win, then it's very likely that Farage wins the next election on a policy of leaving again. I can't see any outcome from labour offering a 2nd vote which results in us staying in the EU and/or labour being in govt.
It’s extremely depressing.
so they can’t afford to lose any
Something happened this week, in case you hadn't noticed. They lost voters everywhere.
Moving on… Labour can say, "vote us into office, if you get the chance, and we will have a referendum that includes Remain and our alternative Brexit"… that only stops Brexit if that is the result of the Referendum. Democracy and all that. The current position of only supporting a referendum while in opposition is "virtue signalling", as you put it, yes… it's saying that they have one policy while they don't have the numbers to implement it alone, but if enough of us vote for them at a general election, they'll dump that policy to implement Brexit. Who votes for that…?!! And most importantly, how can Labour activists and members be sent or again to explain that duplicity?
And even if remain win, then it’s very likely that Farage wins the next election on a policy of leaving again
Not impossible. A government being elected from a right wing voter base to implement Brexit could happen. A government being elected from a left wing voter base to implement Brexit won't happen. Scotroutes' pie chart helps you to understand why. Labour aping Farage policy positions won't take many voters from whatever party he is in at the next general election, but it will push lots of voters away to support the SNP, Greens & LibDems.
Not rocket science, is it?
You’d think...
Labour aping Farage policy positions
Oh FFS labour have never 'aped' Farage's policy positions. Is this now what remain fundamentalism thinks? Everyone truly has gone mental.
If you can explain how labour wins without it's northern brexit voters then please do and I'll shut up, but I haven't seen any explanation yet. Also if you could explain how labour offering a 2nd referendum stops brexit then that would be useful too.
Maybe magic grandpa needs to actually use his awe-inspiring oratory powers to persuade people about the benefits of remain? Oops too late.
Yours, a northern remain ex-labour voter.
As predicted, the ERG headbangers and their mates in the right wing press are going absolutely ballistic about Bercow
I expect he’ll get the full blown Enemy of the People treatment on tomorrow’s front pages
If you can explain how labour wins without it’s northern brexit voters then please do and I’ll shut up, but I haven’t seen any explanation yet.
I'll do so after you explain how it wins without those of us in the north who voted Labour before, but will not vote for a party promising to implement Brexit if it gets into government, and not offering a referendum on their Brexit. They don't even have to promise to stop Brexit to win us back, just promise a referendum with a Remain option.
Also if you could explain how labour offering a 2nd referendum stops brexit then that would be useful too.
It doesn't.
A) If Labour promises a referendum, and starts explaining now why one is needed, then in a snap General Election (which they are pushing for, and is looking increasingly likely) they could win. It is then down to the public to stop Brexit in the referendum. Labour wouldn't be stopping Brexit. The referendum doesn't stop anything. The voters could chose to.
B) More Tories choose to back a referendum, to avoid a general election and get Brexit "resolved" (or rather either moved forward or moved aside). A stronger whip from Labour (including not allowing front benchers to abstain) could then result in a referendum. And, again, that doesn't stop Brexit, but voters could then choose to.
Labour's problem has always been that most of their working class voters were extremely right wing in most of their beliefs. They voted labour because they were in favour of redistribution of wealth in their direction - the rest of the left wing agenda they didn't really care for. After the destruction of the unions they didn't have much reason to stay with Labour, and UKIP offered them a suitably right wing alternative. Labour has no future as there aren't enough middle class lefties to vote them into power.
Nah, nationalising the rail operators and reducing private provision in the NHS (as examples) are incredibly popular policies across the classes. There are millions more people who could be voting Labour, either again or for the first time, if the party had the strategy and communication skills to persuade them that they were safe to vote for. Brexit is part of that. It's a big first step that needs taking. Second step is replace Milne. Third is to listen to Len far less. Get MPs and members setting policy. We may also be at the point where a change of leader is needed as well, although not necessarily. Change is needed, that's for sure.
People don't seem to have noticed but the fate of Britain is currently being played out in Europe. NIce Mr Junker is off and his job is up for grabs. Whichever way it goes you can expect a mild hardening of the EU line on Brexit and if Macron's favourites get it you can expect cake to be in short supply. He needs to form an alliance with the socialists - watch this space.
What too many of you supposed labour supporters but corbyn haters do not realise is you have been conned by the right wing media - and if it wasn't brexit ( on which you have built a totally false supposed corbyn position) then some other issue would be being used as a stick to beat ~corbyn with.
I've used Corbyn's house voting record, his performances in parliament and his Wikipedia page. Care to point out the errors in those that have mean I have a false view of Corbyn's postion, TJ.
Meanwhile Britains's future is being played out as alliances are formed following the EU elections and this is the Express front page with not a mention:
Just more hate and bile about the EU.
Fools.
Labour’s problem has always been that most of their working class voters were extremely right wing in most of their beliefs. They voted labour because they were in favour of redistribution of wealth in their direction – the rest of the left wing agenda they didn’t really care for.
Agree. That is very clear whenever they are interviewed and I am not sure why they were ever Labour other than that is what the parents were, what they thought they should be. A person that believes in Labour/socialism doesn't switch to the Brexit party at the drop of a hat and Brexit would be a minor thing compared to all the other differences between Labour and a right wing party (for them personally and for society)
As much as I've wanted a second referendum I actually think if there was one now it's more likely than not to end up with a pro-Brexit result. I don't think STW's general pro-remain stance is representative of the nation, I mean if people really don't want Brexit why was there only a 37% turn-out with only 50ish% of those voting for pro-remain parties in the MEP elections?
I'm kind of resigned to crashing out in October with no deal now (with a PM who I wouldn't even want washing my car let alone running the country). Worse still if/when things start to go pear-shaped with the economy the Brexiteers will just blame it on the EU/the World for deliberately making things difficult etc. and the media then the people will just lap it up conveniently forgetting the years of fake news/scaremongering (i.e. sensible warnings) the remainers have been banging on about.
What too many of you supposed labour supporters but corbyn haters do not realise is you have been conned by the right wing media
Oh do give it a rest TJ. Its patronising in the extreme this constant accusation that if you don't like Karl Marxes Garden Gnome then you're willingly having your opinions spoonfed to you by the Murdoch press and you're an unthinking drone and a deluded capitalist stooge.
I tend to get my news from the Guardian and Channel 4 news. You know.... those famous slavish mouthpieces of the right-wing establishment. I'm quite capable of weighing things up and coming to my own conclusions, thanks. And so are all the other former labour voters who have just abandoned the party in droves for the more enlightened (not to mention competent) forward-looking Greens, SNP and Lib Dems
And heres a thought for you: Perhaps the opinion that you've voiced - basically that anyone who doesn't like Corbyn is a gullible, unthinking fool - is actually counter-productive and is driving moderate voters away from a sect that looks and behaves more like a cult every passing day, which seems to exist in a bunker, brooks no criticism of the 'Glorious Leader' and treats everyone who doesn't sign up to its incoherent philosophy as 'the enemy'
Hardly inclusive, is it? As its 14% vote share proves beyond question. Or is that exclusively Rupert Murdoch's fault too?
Care to point out the errors in those that have mean I have a false view of Corbyn’s postion, TJ.
Thwe whole idea that he is intent on a no deal brexit at all costs, the idea he is a friend of terrorists, the idea he is a anti semeite.
there are all canards supported by the right wing press to discredit him. If you actually listened to what he has said especially over Europe and actually looked at his record you would know its utter nonsense. However your hatred of him leads you to believe the lies.
Simple as that. If you are too blind to see it I am sorry for you
If you actually listened to what he has said especially over Europe and actually looked at his record
As regards Brexit? We have. And we're still listening, and watching, and hoping. Perhaps foolishly.
Labour’s problem has always been that most of their working class voters were extremely right wing in most of their beliefs.
Not much of a surprise - from the website that DazH linked to....
https://libcom.org/library/nazism-and-working-class-sergio-bologna
Already by the early 1980s work was being done on analysing election results from the 1930s. This work has been continually updated and enriched, and has now arrived at the following conclusion: the percentage of votes for the Nazi party deriving from the working class showed a continual upswing in the period preceding the Nazis' seizure of power. Jurgen Falter is one of the historians who has researched the phenomenon in depth, and he presented his initial results in 1986 in the journal of the Friedrich Ebert Foundation, an organisation close to the Social Democratic Party. In his most recent article, published at the start of this year (in the journal Geschichte und Gesellschaft), Falter previews the results of his research project carried out on 42,000 Nazi party membership cards, from which it appears that the party's working-class membership stood at more than 40 per cent.
What we find developing here is an interpretation of Nazism as a phenomenon within which the working-class component is strongly present, if not decisive. This flies in the face of the traditional interpretation, which sees the Nazi party essentially as the party of the Mittelstand, in other words of the middle classes. This is one aspect of the problem.
In the years after World War II, some leading Westerners argued for limiting democracy to stop the masses from electing demagogues like Hitler. King and his fellow researchers say the best way to stop such unhappy repetitions of history is to implement successful economic policies.
Heh.
As regards Brexit? We have. And we’re still listening, and watching, and hoping. Perhaps foolishly.
Really - why do you keep on claiming things that he has repeatedly repudiated?
the idea he is a friend of terrorists, the idea he is a anti semeite.
I've never made comment on those points on this forum, TJ.
I don't think Corbyn is "a friend of terrorists" I don't think he's an "no deal brexit at all costs", although his voting record is strongly anti EU and he's clearly a brexiteer. As for the anti semitism, I think I wait to hear what the EHRC say. Although I do think there is an Israeli=Jewish blindspot in many folk including many in the Labour Party.
I do however what to vote for a party that has left wing ideals and is firmly remain, for me that's the Green party currently. I'll look at the Labour Party once again if it makes its mind up about what it stands for.
I don't read "right wing media" thanks
Oh do give it a rest TJ
Do you find people repeatedly saying the same thing to be a bit tiresome?
Thwe whole idea that he is intent on a no deal brexit at all costs, the idea he is a friend of terrorists, the idea he is a anti semeite.
Yes, we know none of that is true. However, Corbyn is clearly not against leaving the EU (and never was) yet his party members are for remaining in the EU. The voters swing all over the place as above and he can't maintain a fuzzy position of trying to keep them all. He needs to show some leadership and pick a side that people can either agree with or not. As majority of Labour voters and members are remain then I would suggest that side.
If he can't then he should resign and let someone who can represent the majority of Labour voters and members take the position. They would hopefully be a better leader as it is clear he is out of his depth.
People seem to forget that Nazi is short for National socialist, Rayban. Hitler got into power on the popular 1920s - 1930s popular socialist bandwagen. The Nazi projects stand today just like the job creating schemes in the US at the time. When I look out of junior's flat in Berlin there's a huge eagle on the top of the building opposite.
Check out some of Roosevelts projects to provide jobs during the great depression and you'll find German equivalents. Public buildings, infrastructure. Have a look at photos of Reagan Washington ariport and Tempelhof in Berlin which were built in the same years at the intiative of the respective leaders.
I'm having nothing to do with Corbyn's brand of socialism or a Labour Brexit. They're both dangerous populist trash that are economically unviable aimed at the poorly educated. people will not prosper under them and all but 6.5% have worked that out. What they haven't worked out is that Farrage isn't any better and voting for him instead won't improve their lot either.
Here’s a piece written by our labour MP Jamed Frith, in the Times (hence pasting instead of linking). It sounds like a damn site more reasoned approach to the whole thing, not to mention more electorally appealing, then anything coming from anyone around Corbyn
I’ve written for The Times today about how Labour can find a clear voice on Brexit with a change in policy. You can find the whole piece below.
After attempts to be austerity-lite, Labour found its voice again when it opposed austerity. We can do the same again with a clear voice on Brexit, back a final say public vote on a deal which can muster a majority of MPs and give Britain the last word - whether to stick or twist; to keep what we’ve got or sign it off. As with austerity, so now with Brexit, there are those who argue it is a necessary position for us to take as we’re pulled on to the Tories’ lawn.
After the EU elections results, we know that offering Labour’s version of Brexit is a rhetoric that voters have deemed inauthentic. Those who believe in Brexit won’t vote for us because there is literally a party called Brexit. And it isn’t enough to convince some Remainers or changers (former Leavers now wanting another vote) that we’re strong enough for them to support. There may well be trust issues to come if we continue to ask for an open relationship with everyone.
No-deal rhetoric will be the ropes of the ring in which the Tory leadership battle will be fought. Labour’s rhetoric thus far has included a clear opposition to a no-deal exit but this takes us no further now in the minds of the voters even though no-deal is more likely than anything else.
After three years of disastrous Tory handling of this, the five months until we fall out of the EU are easily accounted for: A five week Tory leadership contest in which contestants jostle to out-Brexit each other, a summer recess and a month-long party conference season quickly shrinks the time we have to a matter of a few short weeks in Westminster on which the future prospects for the entire country are held in balance, with an untested, newly-minted Prime Minister. It is hard to see how a caucus alone, from any corner of the Commons, could intervene successfully before reaching October’s deadline.
An explicit, unambiguous, simply put change of position by Her Majesty’s Opposition with a clear Labour policy on this might be the only way we have of stopping a no-deal Brexit. Labour’s policy should become the backing of a public vote on a deal proposed by the next Tory PM which can secure a majority in Parliament before putting it to the public to sign off, with Labour backing staying in to transform Britain and a reformed relationship with Europe. Labour MP’s could offer conditional support for a Brexit deal providing it is put to the people, with Remain as an option, an outcome the Labour Party would campaign for - alongside a bold and ambitious Labour programme to rebuild the country and get it back on track.
Labour should recommit to its transformative plan to rebuild Britain, not join in with its dismantling. We should lead with a bold and open offer, including substantial investment in Britain's Leave and most deprived areas to address some of the underlying motivations and reasons people voted to leave and call time on the status quo. This isn’t the bungled bribe promised by the Tories but a recognition that austerity has taken its toll, deepening inequalities that served as a backdrop and motivation to vote Leave with so many overlooked by the benefits of growth elsewhere, remaining blindspots for this government whilst the Brexit bickering ensues.
In my community this could deliver a desperately needed local public transport revival, new CCTV and community policing teams back on the beat, cleaner air initiatives, more school funding and new school buildings, teachers for children with special educational needs, quality affordable housing, easy access to GP surgeries and traffic easing.
Let's also commit to higher paid work with a national roll-out of living wage towns funded by government and business and give our local authorities the funding they need and deserve to deliver high quality frontline services. Let’s be explicit in the cost of this being paid for by the benefits of staying in Europe, with the value of what it can bring coming from the communities ourselves who will determine what we spend it on.
An overwhelming majority of the Labour Party still believes we should lead, not leave, Europe. There is a case to be made anew now we all know more than we did, acknowledging the fact that the 2017 Parliament is more recently anointed than the 2016 referendum vote. Some of us were sent to Parliament because we didn’t trigger Article 50. And the 2015, 16 and 17 election years saw towns like mine taking different decisions on the same issue each of those years in sequence. Just a few weeks ago new Labour councillors were elected in place of Tory councillors in my constituency, with the Local Election affirming an approach we’ve taken across Bury North which includes arguing that the public should get a final say on this.
Democracy is the right to vote the same way and the room to change your mind and now we know more about what Brexit means, let’s hold it up to the light and say yes or no to it. More democracy is more of a say not less and this isn’t something to call wrong.
James Frith MP
Bury North
I’ll do so after you explain how it wins without those of us in the north who voted Labour before, but will not vote for a party promising to implement Brexit if it gets into government
I've already explained that they can't. The irony of remain fundamentalists enabling a no deal tory/Farage govt seems to be lost on many though.
It doesn’t.
Wow! So again, what the hell is the point? So it's basically an exercise in remain virtue signalling?
A) If Labour promises a referendum
They already have.
then in a snap General Election (which they are pushing for, and is looking increasingly likely) they could win.
How? Who is going to replace their core voters in northern constituencies?
It is then down to the public to stop Brexit in the referendum.
And as I said before, if that happens, Nigel Farage wins the next election after a referendum, on a policy of taking us out unilaterally with no deal. There is no realistic feasible scenario in the long term which keeps us in the EU. Seems to me remainers have a simple choice, accept reality and try to mitigate the damage via a soft brexit deal, or carry on with this fundamentalist position and ensure a no deal brexit with a Boris/Farage govt leading it.
accept reality and try to mitigate the damage via a soft brexit deal
Theresa May closed off the route to a soft Brexit deal with her red lines.
Without those, we could now be in some kind of EFTA-type deal, and be back to arguing about funding for bus services.
People seem to forget that Nazi is short for National socialist
Ah yes because the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea is well known as a democratic paradise.
The Nazi party is a bit more interesting since it had the two distinct wings to it. The SA which was the more left wing in some policies was outmanoeuvred politically by the right wing under Hitler and then completely destroyed in the night of long knives.
They’re both dangerous populist trash that are economically unviable aimed at the poorly educated.
Go on. List the policies you specifically disagree with and why they are trash which are economically unviable.
Edukator is quite right, Hitler instigated a lot of socialist measures. It was due to "National Socialism" that my mother and uncle received scholarships to good schools. It also instigated a one party totalitarian system, which is a little less socialist. Oh and a world War. "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer".
And as I said before, if that happens, Nigel Farage wins the next election after a referendum, on a policy of taking us out unilaterally with no deal. There is no realistic feasible scenario in the long term which keeps us in the EU. Seems to me remainers have a simple choice, accept reality and try to mitigate the damage via a soft brexit deal, or carry on with this fundamentalist position and ensure a no deal brexit with a Boris/Farage govt leading it.
Nothing wrong with seeking a soft Brexit and then putting it to the people to choose it against keeping EU membership. I'm not pro Referendum because I think it will stop Brexit, I'm pro Referendum because to push through any form of Brexit that doesn't have majority support will result in exactly the same "betrayal" narrative, and the use of it by the likes of Farage, as cancelling it completely would. Any Brexit pushed through without the consent of the "public" will feed the Farage machine, further alienate people from our democratic processes, as well as disappointing the vast majority of the public, no matter how they voted in 2016.
I’ve already explained that they can’t. The irony of remain fundamentalists enabling a no deal tory/Farage govt seems to be lost on many though.
nah, Corbyns lackluster opposition to Brexit has allowed Farage to fill the vacuum that an actual opposition should have
fence sitting has failed
How? Who is going to replace their core voters in northern constituencies?
theyre lost already, what is shameful is Labours failure bring these communities with them, instead they bow meekly before the xenophobes & populists, too terrified t challenge the lies theyve let fester (see Labours opposition to FOM as part of their apparent 'soft' brexit stance)
full metal godwin
It also instigated a one party totalitarian system, which is a little less socialist.
Is it? Socialism doesn't mandate democracy does it? I think people get their terms mixed up a little bit in politics tbh.
Whoah. Johnson apparently being prosecuted for lying during Brexit campaign... bombshell.
Whoah. Johnson apparently being prosecuted for lying during Brexit campaign… bombshell.
Kicked off properly last week. From what I have seen there doesnt seem to be much hope for it.
Especially since he can just shout persecution and the right will rally.
Hands up, whoever thinks that will just "go away"...?
Not least of all because, if it doesn't, then surely it must widen to include all sorts of protagonists...
Despite speculation, Bercow is not stepping down this summer.
“Now is a time in which momentous events are taking place and there are great issues to be resolved and, in those circumstances, it doesn't seem to me sensible to vacate the chair.”
List the policies you specifically disagree with
I'l start with all the Brexit stuff obviously. Anything that isn't a straight policy of remain, which is everything. They want a deal just as unnegotiable as the Tories
I consider most of the rest lies, edit: or empty promises, as it's the exact opposite of what they've doen when in power or failed to do when in power:
Higher education and schools, they promise free fees and grants, they had every chance to do that. The did the opposite because they're faced with nearly half the population going through higher education and the inability to raise the tax necessary to do that without stopping the economy dead. The system needs to be pay according to means. No fees and gtrants for the poor paid for by the fees imposed on the rich - self funding universities funded by the rich. So I disagree with free fees for all.
Housing, again the ideas are great but their propositions for funding it are nonsense and there's nothing radical like a new high tech city with all the infrastructure and private partners.
It's just the same old Labour tax everyone and spend when they need to tax the rich in a way that can't be avoided and get them to invest because it's profitable to do so.
Go trough the rest of the policy and they're making the same mistakes, they're failing to mobilse the private sector and taxing everybody rather than those most able to pay. Just like Blair the ****.
Edit: to correct soome of the syntax errors and typos.
And as I've few more minutes Labour need to propose taxing private schools just the same as any business including VAT. And taxing accomodation at private schools just like a hotel.
And properly tax out of town shopping centres masquerading as garden centres.
Had another look at the Labour manifesto.
This is just ****ing awful:
https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/creating-economy-works/#ninth
We don't need to fuel houses you idiots, we need to make houses that don't need fueling, and make existing houses fit for living in with insulation to passive house standards, heat recovery and solar roofs. FFS, we need modern solutions not just more electricty and gas at affordable prices, that was your 70s solution and it's made a few share holders in oil companies rich and the rest poorer because the North sea ga has been wasted in ineffient homes and now it has to be imported.
Britain has reached 32% renewables and that's great, what is now needed is a massive redcution in energy demand so existing and future renewables are enough.
And back the EU. The EU on average is a hell of a lot more socialist or Labour than Britain, why would you want out of a union that limits right-wing madness when you're not in power - because you aren't always going to be in power. And never will be again uless you move on from 1974.
Edit: and that too Zippy. Tax the retail parks and reduce taxes on the high street. Make it so people don't have to get in their car.
And as I said before, if that happens, Nigel Farage wins the next election after a referendum, on a policy of taking us out unilaterally with no deal. There is no realistic feasible scenario in the long term which keeps us in the EU.
You are dead wrong.
The political reality is that the ERG won't accept Mays deal or a labour deal. Labour can't be seen to enable a Tory brexit.
If we no deal, the economy will implode and Farage will get in and turn the publics anger against non-EU migrants. If we remain, the economy will be fine and we have a good chance of keeping Farage out of power through coalition politics.
You are the deluded one here Daz - not the "fundementalist remainers". The right simply cannot be allowed to blame one set of foreigners for this countries issues and legitimize that - because they won't just stop there if you appease them. You and people like you are either useful iditos or willfully complicit in their aims.
Long term, we have to look at ways to hinder populism - either through education or weighting the vote. Because the last 70 odd years had shown that full emancipation does not in fact decrease oppression like you have stated or increase political stability, instead it seems to worsen both. We are witnessing a repeating cyclical pattern of populism - fuelled by the same tropes, memes and demogrraphics that led to the previous centuries bloodshed and insanityy.
The news that BoJo may be getting dragged through court has cheered me up no end.
There is no realistic feasible scenario in the long term which keeps us in the EU.
The problem here is that you've already admitted that you just really really want this to be true. So your fingers are flip-flapping impotently on keys now in the vain hope that we'll eventually believe you roll over, capitulate and go away. And if the last 1,700+ pages haven't taught you yet that this is simply not going to happen then I don't know what else I can add.
Your notion of "compromise" is an argument in a divorce where neither side can agree who gets custody of the kid so they propose to slice her down the middle and take half each. It's a Compromise In Name Only which no-one actually really wants. This is the unsquareable circle which has paralysed parliament for the last three years, the only form of brexit palatable to those demented enough to still want it is one which throws the country under the bus. You talk about reality, that's your reality right there.
Edit: to correct soome of the syntax errors and typos.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry%27s_law
(-:
And back the EU. The EU on average is a hell of a lot more socialist or Labour than Britain, why would you want out of a union that limits right-wing madness when you’re not in power – because you aren’t always going to be in power. And never will be again uless you move on from 1974.
Probably the most sensible critique of Labour Corbyn's position that I've read in a while.
I se the Corbynite Politburo have done their usual and rather than address the actual issues raised by their catastrophic election results, shoot the messanger instead.
Looks like the attack dogs are now out for that stalwart of the rightwing press and outrider of the establishment, Paul Mason, for having the temerity to suggest that Corbynism is now in crisis: the only way forward is to oppose Brexit
Boris lies coming back to haunt him or just pointless exercise?
Good timing though 😂
Boris lies coming back to haunt him or just pointless exercise?
Good timing though 😂
It's a solid case I think...
The second sentence on the bus 'let's give it to the NHS instead' was simply misleading as it was a suggestion rather than a promise or a statement of intention. So not technically a lie.
The first part of the sentence however! 'we give the EU 350m a week' is what the case cites, as abuse, as that's a gross figure before taking into account rebates and mutually beneficial expenditure that goes towards continental security, science projects, environmental projects and many other things that are hard to quantify in terms of gross UK membership fees.
Of course the right wing press won't mention that.
BoJo certainly won't, he's a disaster capitalist.
Anyone regognise this pequliar couple? They weren't happy being photographed together.
Johnson has certainly lost a bit of weight since then, and is dressing a bit more like a 'political person'
I guess he's employed a PR man! Claiming it all back on expenses of course.
Len McCluskey on Peston right now blowing up labours support from remainers.
The logical gymnastics to read Labour voters deserting them for the libdems last week are quite impressive, in a frankly bonkers Brexit at any cost kind of way....
Just watched it. Absolutely detached from reality to a truly terrifying degree.
After a general election (which labour will win a majority, obviously) “We will negotiate a deal with the E.U. which will unite the 52 and the 48%”
Erm... ok Len
Take a look at that 14% you just polled. That will be looking like a high watermark, you 1970’s *ing deranged Marxist dinosaur
And there’s no antisemitism in the Labour Party and everyone thinks Jeremy is just brilliant and destined for number 10
Sweet baby Jesus! He’s obviously been taking acid
It’s glaringly obvious who’s pulling the strings though. It’s not labour MP’s. It’s not labour members. It’s not labour (or probably now ex-labour) voters. It’s Seamus, Len and 1973)
You *ing Stalinist clowns!
Faced with the opportunity of a lifetime, with the Tory party in total meltdown, you’re busy making the Labour Party a laughable retro 70’s irrelevance...
All hail Reg and ‘the committee...
Meanwhile Jacob Mogg is saying that politician's should be allowed to lie to the public..
This is involving the courts in something that is not their area.
Isn't it interesting that the defence from most of these guys is "we should be allowed to lie and the courts should stay out of it" or "it's fine for us to lie, it's up to the public whether they believe the lies or not", and not "he didn't lie"
All the right wing press is united in its outrage this morning at the very concept of being held accountable for telling massive whoppers
What about all the labour figures arguing the other side? Simply ignored Binners?
Binners isn't really a fan of the nuanced approach...
Everyone other than a handful of nutters are ignored TJ. i se even John McDonnel has now been cast out as a non-believer, as they hunker down in the bunker. This on top of Paul Mason being denounced as a blasphemer for daring to question the Glorious Leader
An attack on Jeremy Corbyn’s advisers is an attack on Jeremy Corbyn
Very soviet, don't you think?
Clearly the people setting policy are mainly not even elected MP's. They're shady operators like Seamus 'Stalin wasn't that bad' Milne and Karie Murphy, and unreconstructed lumbering 70's tin-eared dinosaurs like Len McClusky and Ian Lavery
So much for restoring party democracy
With that shower at the helm, the labour party is screwed. Unfortunately, in the total absense of an opposition party, that means that at this present juncture, the country is too
Jeremy Corbyn has pledged that Labour will back a second referendum on any Brexit deal put to parliament, but warned of a “deliberately inflamed divide” as he sought to calm tempers among senior party figures.
The Labour leader, who is visiting Dublin to meet Irish taoiseach Leo Varadkar on Thursday, said his party would “do whatever is necessary to stop a disastrous no-deal outcome” and said Labour would work across party lines to block a new Brexiter prime minister who could crash the UK out of the EU.
“Faced with the threat of no deal and a prime minister with no mandate, the only way out of the Brexit crisis ripping our country apart is now to go back to the people,” he said, speaking ahead of his visit to Ireland.
“Let the people decide the country’s future, either in a general election or through a public vote on any deal agreed by parliament. For Labour any outcome has to work for our whole country, not just one side of this deliberately inflamed divide.”
Just conveniently ignored Binners?
Actually Binners these folk you highlight actually have little power and CANNOT set policy
Erm.. they are doing, in case you've missed it
This guy can set policy
And he's either really stupid or just plain lying
https://twitter.com/IrishTimesPol/status/1133814279084232705?s=19
Red unicorns
No wonder people are deserting labour, too scared to tell voters the truth
Nope - they are not. Get your facts right. They have no power nor authority to set policy.
Anyway... more great news brought to you by the 'B' Word that HM official opposition refuse to oppose, that'll com as great news to the voters they laughably claim to represent
These don't mention the tractor production figures but I'm sure they're simply wonderful, comrade
Kimbers - apart from the unfortunate fact for you that the EU have made it perfectly clear a change of government with different red lines could renegotiate a much differnt deal.
Jeepers guys - at least make the attacks vaguely based on fact.
Or the ones drawn onto the backs of the socialist unicorns?
Jean-Claude Juncker said he was "crystal clear" there will be no renegotiation of the Brexit deal, despite claims from several candidates in the U.K. Conservative leadership race that they will reopen talks with Brussels.
Thats with the tories as they have the same red lines!
They have made it perfectly clear that if the red lines change so does the deal!
THE EUROPEAN UNION’S chief Bexit negotiator Michel Barnier has warned that the risk of a no-deal Brexit is now greater than ever before after the British parliament resoundingly defeated the withdrawal deal last night.
Speaking in the European Parliament, Barnier said the EU “profoundly” regrets the result of the vote in the House of Commons.
“We are 10 weeks from the 31st of March and at 10 weeks the risk of a no deal has never seemed so high,” he said in Strasbourg.
The French politician defended the Brexit deal but said that the EU is willing to reopen talks if London is willing to change its existing “red lines”.
So that is two direct quotes that show how false your position is. Don't let your hatred of Corbyn blind you to the reality. Which is a badly split party and country and no outcome that can satisfy all
so labour are moving to second ref with Corbyn agreeing with this and Barnier states that the deal can be renegotiated with differnt red lines.
The negotiating team at the EU end are moving on to different job bs, that phase of the process is done, the EU are moving on.
It was written into the extension agreement that there can be no renegotiation of the deal. Macron in particular was insistent on that.
It's the Future Relationship or bust for us now
Whatever you say, Uncle Jezza. Everything clearly going to work out great in red-unicornland and they'll build little beardy statues of the glorious leader all over the socialist republic of Englandshire
Withdrawal Agreement is closed. They are not going to change it for a new PM, be that Dominic Raab or Jeremy Corbyn. This is why Labour and the Conseratives are getting rinsed. They are incapable of telling the hard truths, and instead think that Farage fantasy politics are the way to go.
Link below is timestamped to the good bit - it's worth watching the whole thing though:
The EU27 agreed to delay to Brexit until 31 October (at the latest) – but with conditions:
The UK must participate in European Parliament elections in May. The Prime Minister also recognised this.
The UK must respect the principle of “sincere cooperation”. This means the UK cannot obstruct or undermine EU institutions or discussions in other areas.
There would be no renegotiation of the Withdrawal Agreement.
As ever we can change the political declaration but we cannot renegotiate the deal
Don't be coming on an EU Brexity thread with your facts and reality! Theres no place for that sort of nonsense here!
Remember when Tusk said 'dont waste the extension'
Well we've got a Tory leadership contest where every one of them says they can renegotiate the deal, Corbyn pining for a GE he can't get, so he can renegotiate the deal, oh & a Peterborough by-election where fear of farage means these clowns will keep pushing the same unicorns rather than be honest with the electorate....
All that followed by a summer recess, a state visit from trump , before you know it it's Halloween & we're out on our arses.
Very soviet, don’t you think?
Binners your obsession with the internal debates of the labour party is unhealthy, calm down man! I'd be more concerned if there wasn't a robust debate going on within the labour party, it is after all a broad coalition of people from entirely different cultures and backgrounds. The soviet thing would be if there was no debate at all. McCluskey*, Lavery et al represent the white, industrial working class side of the party, Mason, McDonnell, Thornberry etc the metropolitan and multi-ethnic side (McDonnell's in the middle somewhere I reckon). Those two groups are never going to agree on anything, let alone brexit. Corbyn has the invidious job of being in the middle trying to keep a lid on it and holding it all together. So far he's done a decent job, but it's threatening to spill over into all out warfare.
It's very amusing though that you continue using that picture of Reg from the PFJ. You're right, the main failing of the left is that they prefer fighting each other than the real enemy. In that regard you fit the stereotype perfectly. 🙂
*And for the record, McCluskey is an idiot. The trouble is though that unions are by definition a conservative construct. They cannot accept changing with the times because that's invariably bad for their members. I once went to a union organised march in Manchester after the banking crisis. One of the speakers was some dinosaur from the NUM who's entire speech was about reopening the pits (whilst a young man stood behind him in a red t-shirt held his fist in the air :-)). That and a short stint working for a county council opened my eyes to the unions. They're archaic organisations in desperate need of radical reform. So best just to ignore them I think.
Jeepers guys – at least make the attacks vaguely based on fact
Facts? grasping at straws is what it is!.
Corbyn is unelectable, Labour are in disarray, they haven't a clue what to do never mind how to actually bloody go about it.
I live in a working class area, have been in Engineering since I left school, surrounded by sparks, scaffolders, fitters, all union led, and no one would vote for these idiots at present.
Does that not ring alarm bells in your red tower?.
and no one would vote for these idiots at present
Care to elaborate why? (genuinely interested btw)