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+1
I've been mildly irritated by the labelling of remain voting ex labour supporters as being champagne socialists. All the pissed off remainers I know are lower middle class ex state schoolers at best.
The accusation that you are libertarian communist Daz, was based not only on the libcom link, but your hard left anti globalist politics combined with your accusation that the EU is a dictatorship and your call for more devolved politics.
It's that or you're trolling us. Because the statements made are not debate that is designed to give balance - ninfan offered a more considered opinion.
Peston pointing out the obvious here
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1124349981350146049?s=19
Sadly the response from Labours leadership seems to be 'we must hurry up & help the Tories get Brexit over the line' 🙄🙄🙄
Theresa now saying how she 'welcomes comments from labour leader Jeremy Corbyn that both both parties must work towards a deal that can get Brexit over the line'
Magic Granda = Tory-enabler.
The Tory/Labour Brexit stitch up is due next week, both desperate to avoid EU elections...
https://twitter.com/paulbranditv/status/1124325644136013824?s=21
Are you sure that is what you were called? Not just an alt-right apologist, when you were arguing to implement alt-right policies as the best way to supposedly stop alt-right populism. And of course you are quite happy to insinuate that any one who disagrees with you is a liberal elite, champagne socialist, audi driving middle manager etc While you and you alone are the true voice of the working classes.
I think the ‘nazi sympathiser’ thing might be a reference to me describing enacting an alt-right policy because ‘we have been told to’ as a weird sort of ‘Nuremberg Defence’. If so, this is either very thin-skinned or a bit of ‘totting up supposed insults to justify a flounce’.
For good or bad (and in good or bad taste) the ‘Nuremberg Defence’ is quite well-known slang for enacting shit decisions because, well, someone told me to......
I see Tony Robinson has resigned from the labour party over all this.
Shame
At least he would have had a cunning plan
Crikey a big win for Lib Dem 🤣
His replies are full of people calling him a Tory, of course.
If you criticise Reg then you face the wrath of the PFJ!
Brexit 0, Will of the people 1.
1 nil to Brexit still! Remain are just having a sustained period of pressure - similar to Liverpool when they were 1 down against Barcelona on weds.
Agree with Robinson. It is the leadership that is the cause of the Brexit problems and the anti-semitism problem. Anti-semitism is easy to fix and as leader I would have fixed that as soon as it was highlighted, Brexit could be easy by just pushing for remain and accepting the loss of votes (but the gain of other votes) and the continued against the will of the people crap from the media.
The leadership was not there or not on the right side.
Saying that, I would still 100% prefer a Labour party with a bad leader to a Tory party with any leader. Given my only option of Tory or Labour my decision is made easy.
I assume that was all sarcasm about the role of a party leader? I'm finding it harder and harder to tell in this thread. Agree that your choice was easy, I'd have also voted Labour given no other option but Conservative. Luckily we have a thriving democracy here, not a two party stitch up, so I had other decent options. Labour won strongly in my area anyway as it happens.
Someone show me a clip of Corbyn or May from yesterday that doesn't elicit the feeling… "how on Earth are they still carrying on like this?!" …please… I can't. Both have heavily outstayed their welcome.
The whole antisemitism thing is utter bunkum. Corbyn and co are anti Israels apartheid policies and pro self determination for the palestinians. This is not the same as being anti semetic.
Its a canard.
IMO the results of these elections while not good for labour ( and disastrous for the tories) need some careful analysis and no one message can be taken
From the grauniad:
Labour comfortably maintained control in pro-remain university cities such as Cambridge and Exeter, remaining unchanged in the former and losing one seat in the latter. Despite criticism from Ben Bradshaw, the pro-second-referendum Exeter MP, that the party’s Brexit message was “unclear”, there was no sign that Labour could be outflanked in its metropolitan heartlands by Change UK.
Where Labour struggled was in working-class areas, particularly in the north-east and to a lesser extent the east Midlands, where voters want Britain to leave the EU. Labour lost 14 seats in Bolsover, Derbyshire, which went to no overall control; and lost five in Hartlepool – a parliamentary seat once considered a Ukip target – and control of the council. No wonder, then, that John McDonnell declared the message from the electorate was: “Brexit – sort it.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/03/local-elections-five-things-we-have-learned-so-far
They keep citing Bolsover, yet next door in Bassetlaw Labour increased their numbers.
Besides 82 v 1334. I think it's the Tories that took the kicking. And yet the media have loved making it an equivalent drubbing.
Yeah, Labour nearly did as well as they did when they utterly failed in 2015 and the leader went on to resign.
Don't you get it, an incompetent incumbant government makes a massive drubbing, and labour makes 0 zero none null nada gains from that, and in fact still lose seats themselves (from an already incredibly poor performance in 215).
Yes, the massive loss to pro remain candidates needs analysing so that it can be twisted and contorted as full steam ahead for a blatantly failing leadership.
A message was sent yesterday, but both party leaders are too thick headed and arrogant to listen to it,
Read the detailed analysis. There is no simple answer to be taken from this.
Besides 82 v 1334. I think it’s the Tories that took the kicking. And yet the media have loved making it an equivalent drubbing.
How hard is it to understand that the bulk of those 1300 votes lost by the Tories* should have gone to labour if theyre to have any chance of winning a GE or anything else for that matter.
*Without being hyperbolic this is probably the most incompetent government in since ww2: 46 ministers quit or fired in <2years!, defence sec fired for leaking secrets on eve of election!......
Labour should have cleaned up, no wonder Corbyn looked so worried yesterday
The easiest game to play as a political pundit is to say: this set of election results proves I was right and vindicates the strategy I have recommended. But anyone claiming that these results offer clear answers for Labour are simply expressing what they would like the party to do. Some voices are arguing that Labour is being punished for not backing a second referendum; others that it is being damaged for whipping its MPs to vote for it twice; and many contend that Labour is being damaged because it is triangulating over the dominant political issue of our time. They are all correct. That does not, however, offer a guide as to what the party should do next.
From Owen Jones - a pro remain labour but not corbyn supporter writing in the gaurdian
The Labour leadership are looking for the answers only they want. They are ignoring the fact that the Pro Remain Lib Dems and Greens increased their share of the vote. However, I'm not surprised by their stance.
However, it is utterly delicious to see the tories implode and if we do have EU elections, they will implode even further.
Although I agree with Binners, May & Corbyn will probably cobble a Brexit deal together behind closed doors this week. This goes along with the noise coming from the Labour Leadership.
And even better, UKIP is now completely irrelevant.
Corbyn does not look well. I think it’s time for him to gallantly put his health before the needs of the country and step down.
His family need him more than we do.
The whole antisemitism thing is utter bunkum. Corbyn and co are anti Israels apartheid policies and pro self determination for the palestinians. This is not the same as being anti semetic.
Yes, we know the difference. However, there are people in the Labour membership who have made actual anti-semitic comments. They just need to be kicked straight out, problem solved.
What is the WTO definition of a customs union?
Would the Monster Raving Leave Party vote for it? Mogg always backs down.
Yes, we know the difference. However, there are people in the Labour membership who have made actual anti-semitic comments. They just need to be kicked straight out, problem solved.
Exactly, deal with the real cases of ani-semitism, fight back against the false allegations and the conflation of anti-semitism and opposing Israeli apartheid policies.
As with brexit, the labour leadership have sat in the middle of the road, dazzled in the headlights, dithering about what to do, done nothing and been crushed. And for the same reasons, they seem to be more concerned with losing and pandering to a minority of racist labour votes, than for standing up for the ideals and philosophies that made labour.
+1 MSP.
I am struggling to see what the party I have supported my entire life actually stands for any more.
The Irish Times has been consistently the best place to read Brexit coverage that benefits from a degree of seperation. Their take on yesterday’s results...May and Corbyn say big losses mean voters want them to deliver Brexit deal together
I think the next week will see the death of the Labour Party in its present form. It’s been in the post for a few years now anyway
Corbyn will try to whip his MPs to drive through Mays Brexit WA, which will trigger mass walkouts by the obvious suspects, but leave enough of a Corbynite rump to deliver Brexit and prevent EU elections taking place.
There will definitely not be a confirmatory referendum on whatever they’re cooking up
The Labour Party is effectively being sacrificed on the alter of a hard right project by the hard left
You couldn’t make it up!
You couldn’t make it up!
I couldn't, but you seem to be an expert at making it up.
A lot of Tories won't vote for a deal with Labour. It would kill the little bit of credibility they have left.
You couldn’t make it up!
I couldn’t, but you seem to be an expert at making it up.
The media coverage of the results is a bit simplistic - "Tories damaged by no deal leavers not voting and Labour by disenfranchised remainers voting LD/green"
I think it's a bit more complicated than that. There are plenty of remainer Tories, especially amongst the leafy suburb living professional classes who will have switched to LDs as well as previous Labour voters. Greens picked up lots of votes from Labour remainers too. But on the other side lots of Labour leave voters bought into the betrayal of democracy narrative and didn't vote. Also the big increase in indie councillors can be either a pro/anti brexit issue or local factors amplified by Brexit.
You also really have to look behind the headline number of first past the post victors to the voting. Big green and LD surges in some wards and low turnouts - but just not enough to oust sitting Tory or Labour.
Local issues did play through as well (green belt development was a big deal and greens campaigned hard locally) but really secondary
... as others have said I think this will force May to compromise enough for Labour to sign up to a deal on WA inc CU.
Be interesting to see what amendments would be tabled, votes called and whipped and who does what in terms of following the whip
The big question is , whatever the labcons come up with will it work with the EU?
I don;t think thats the issue zippy - a deal is possible that would work for the EU. However I very much doubt they could get a majority in the commons for it. Hard brexiteers will not vote for anything including a customs union. Many tories will not vote for a deal that labour want. Many labour MPs will not vote for a deal that does not include a second referendum
Also there is not enough time left to avoid the EU elections.
Both parties are positioning themselves to blame the other for when the cross party talks fail
Olddog and the differences in different areas. Labour did OK in remain areas and poorly in leave areas.
Depends how close the CU and SM fudges arrangements are to what we already have, otherwise that pesky Irish backstop will be a show stopper once again when we go back to the EU with WA 1.1
Labour did OK in remain areas and poorly in leave areas.
The main remain areas didn't vote. And looking thorugh this:
it's the LibDems who did best in the leave by a small margin areas, because I'm not going to call areas that had a leave majority remain areas.
Labour didn't do OK by any reasonable measure, the Conservatives and UKIP did really badly and Labour did badly. The Greens did well, the Libdems did well and the others did OK.
but from what I have read the labour vote held up reasonably well in remain areas and badly in leave areas.
My point merely being its hard to draw conclusions from this as to the public mood over brexit.
Lib dems are also recovering from a complete collapse in their vote.
Lib dems are also recovering from a complete collapse in their vote.
Thanks to their remain stnace, I hope we can agree on that much at least.
There's some good info graphics on this page
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48091592
The Conservatives took an absolute panning, ok they still hold the majority of councils, but if you look at the number of individual seats lost, it was a bloodbath for them.
That's before you consider areas that didn't have elections.
Also as someone else said above somewhere, the details of Noc areas reveal a bit more with this as it's concerned with seats rather than overall control.
It would be further useful to see all the actual votes broken down by candidate, ward and council as im sure there will be more than a few that were by the skin of the teeth.
A big fat granular spreadsheet would be nice to run some analysis on.
Lib dems are also recovering from a complete collapse in their vote.
Thanks to their remain stnace, I hope we can agree on that much at least.
Multifactorial probably Remain will have done them some good fior sure but plenty of other factors in play as well.
I really do not think that there are simplistic analyses for this
I'll go with Ockham. If it looks, feels and tastes an smells like an apple it's proabbly an apple.
Occams razer?
Yep - it continues to be about saving the party/ies, rather than doing the best for the country...
I feel its inevitable, now, and maybe just grateful that some further compromises are likely to be made in the final deal
When does the "rejoin the EU" campaign start...?
Not a chance of what hunt describes going through. The Headbangers on both sides will knock it back as it's effectively BRINO.
I see Tony Robinson has resigned from the labour party over all this.
Luvvies for Labour? Millionaire Robinson perfectly fine with bombing Iraq and creating ISIS but loses his shit because Corbyn isn’t pro-Israel?
Edukator
Member
Thanks to their remain stnace, I hope we can agree on that much at least.
In part, sure. But nothing in politics happens for one reason only, especially not in local elections
If we look over the years- and bear in mind here that it's different constituencies- the Lib Dems have polled 19%, 16%, 18%, 15%, 11% (Nick Clegg's last)
Labour have polled 28%, 35%, 27%, 31%, 29% (Miliband's last)
Tories have polled 28%, 35%, 38%, 30% (Cameron's last), 35%
The first and last are the direct comparisons in terms of seats contested, but they were also a GE year, and all but the Tories have changed leader so you still can't do a like for like there. Because again, nothing happens for one reason.
But broadly speaking- the Lib Dems had a good result this week but not an amazing one- it's mostly flattered by their fairly poor performance last time and their terrible result in 2015. Similarly Labour have polled a little badly this time, but it looks worse because they had an exceptionally good result in 2018. Both parties are within their normal expectations. Simplistic isn't the same as simple.
The move away from the major parties to independents and Greens does exist- but it's actually mostly accounted for by the Tories and UKIP.
You're misapplying the razor here btw. Suggesting that they recovered only because of their remain stance isn't the simplest explanation at all, in fact it's gobsmackingly unlikely. The simplest explanation is that there's a bunch of things happening at the same time. You're making an argument with a larger number of assumptions.
Don't get hung up on the spelling, either- it doesn't have anything much to do with William of Ockham. IIRC Ptolemy's the earliest known person to have put it in writing.
Wow, you must have your head stuck in the same sand as mine.
I have just voted in the euro elections.
Change UK- the Independant Group ffs! Should have joined the lib Dems.
Me likie this 🥳🥳🥳🥳🕺💃
The final tally has us in control of TWELVE councils and gaining more than 700 councillors across the whole country, including in many Labour and Tory strongholds.
These are the best local election results in our party’s history – by a significant margin.
To put these results in context, the record we broke was under Paddy Ashdown in 1983, when we won 487 councillors.
We went into the local elections with a clear message – a vote for the Liberal Democrats is a vote to STOP BREXIT.
Being a party member and doing my bit makes me very very proud indeed.
Change UK- the Independant Group ffs! Should have joined the lib Dems.
Its all about Ummnas ego and a chance of power. Joining the limp dems would not satisfy him. too left wing as well. Change are Tory lite
Similarly Labour have polled a little badly this time, but it looks worse because they had an exceptionally good result in 2018.
These seats were last contested in 2015, where Labour performed awfully, and then the leader left. That is a low base to drop from. Corbyn will be gone soon… he is about to completely betray the young new members that swept him into, and then re-elected him to, the top of the party. His replacement will still persue policies just as left wing I suspect, but without Milne, Murray and the other "Straight Left" Russia embracing anti EU men behind the scenes calling the shots.
No-one predicting a no-deal crash out anymore?
The EU basically called our bluff and started threatening no deal… May seems to have shown she'll keep reluctantly kicking the can to avoid it… and her party didn't move to replace her despite that… so, no… now highly unlikely this side of October.
No-one predicting a no-deal crash out anymore?
I wouldnt rule it out. The depressing thing about having an interest in history is how often you read about a complete disaster which could have been avoided but wasnt.
In some cases hindsight is a clear advantage but in plenty of others it is clear at the time many decision makers knew it would end in tears but for whatever reason couldnt control the outcome.
Most recent example I have read (well listened to) is how the Japanese despite the chances of pulling it off being minimal ended up in WWII with pearl harbour being a really hopeful roll of the dice which it doesnt seem anyone high up in Japan really expected to work.
Outside of a few fruitcakes, more who see decent enough profits that they wont have to be here to deal with the mess, and even more who at best are misinformed I dont think anyone wants it but sadly I wouldnt count it out.
Nah Labour ate going to stitch everyone up and support the tories.
Go Magic Grandad you bloody useless prat.
Never going to happen Pook. Most of what we hear at the moment is about positioning to blame the other side for a breakdown in talks. Corbyn will only make a deal for BINO. Most tories will block that as not brexity enough, most labour will block that as too brexity, most torys will automatically vote against any deal with labour. all the rest of the parties will block any deal as too brexity
Does look like the narratives being driven towards a stitch up deal.
The Sunday Times reported that the Conservatives would offer new concessions to Labour when talks restart on Tuesday, including a temporary customs union with the European Union, which would last until a national election due in June 2022.
"At that point Labour could use their manifesto to argue for a softer Brexit if they wanted to and a new Conservative prime minister could argue for a harder Brexit," a source cited by the Sunday Times said.
I reckon that would kick the can further down the road which makes it a winner 🙁 and brexits been delivered will of the people respected yada yada..
Corbyn will only make a deal for BINO.
It's almost as if you've never listened to a single word Corbyn has uttered as regards the EU, and think that because he is strongly left leaning he will do what you consider the right thing.
Corbyn will only make a deal for BINO.
I really don’t think so. The EU elections are actually the first real deadline that has happened. There have been plenty of others, but the politicians knew they would be extended. This time it is different, because this time they know they are going to get irrefutable evidence of a growing tendency towards remain. Of course the UKIP Party will grow too, but that is just a flip-flop between them and the Tories depending on whether the Tory line of the day is sufficiently xenophobic.
Both Labour and Tory are terrified of losing the support of their more ‘nationalistic’ followers and are prepared to organise a stitch up to keep it.
May is going anyway and it is in Magic Grandpa’s interest that her successor wriggles out of whatever concession he is half-heartedly pursuing. In that way, when it is pointed out to Magic Grandpa that his signature is on the agreement a year or two down the line, he can claim it has been made void because the Tory leader has ignored the concessions.
This merry go round keeps lots of people in ‘jobs’, you know....
Subscriber
Corbyn will only make a deal for BINO.
It’s almost as if you’ve never listened to a single word Corbyn has uttered as regards the EU, and think that because he is strongly left leaning he will do what you consider the right thing.
Posted 17 minutes ago
No - its precisely because I read and listen to what he says not some strange stuff folk make up
See that quote from dude above. tories are moving to a softer brexit to try to create a deal with Corbyn.
I don't much like the direction he has taken - but I do have a strong attachement to the truth
The tories are moving further and further toward BINO to try to get labour support.
TJ.
I think you live in Scotland(?)
I have just taken a big stride (looked very impressive) to the north of my living room. My living room isn’t that big, so I’d have to go outside to take another massive trouser-splitting stride towards you. The amount of movement depends on perspective.
But it is not so much about the actual movement in any case. I can drive to Newcastle to be closer to you now, but when the time really comes, if there is no rule to say my successor can’t just jump back in their Bentley and head back down the A1, then it was all just posturing.
Can there be a customs union without freedom of movement?
Can there be a customs union without freedom of movement?
I don’t know, but John Pienaar just said to Rory Stewart that a CU would make Liam Fox’s job irrelevant* so I would say it has many positives.
*Yes, I know......
Can there be a customs union without freedom of movement?
Yes - its what Turkey has. Its a really stupid position to want to be in but it is possible
Corbyns ( stupid) position is to want to be out but remain in a customs union and full alignment with all EU regulations. ~Thats BINO which of course is a complete no go to most tories.
All this basically is positioning to blame each other when the talks fail. Labour negotiators know that the tories cannot move far enough to meet them. tories the same. Its all about preparing the ground to blame the other side
So do I TJ, and come to very different conclusions to yourself.
Corbyns ( stupid) position is to want to be out but remain in a customs union and full alignment with all EU regulations. ~Thats BINO which of course is a complete no go to most tories.
Brexit in name only is EFTA, not just being in a customs union, it includes being in the single market and freedom of movement as well as a customs union.
Being in a customs union is still a hard brexit, but possibly the only hard brexit that solves the Irish border issue. And IMO if whipped for by both labour and tories would get through.
No chance of it getting thru. 100+ tories would oppose any CU and any deal with labour as not brexity enough. 100+ labour will oppose it as too brexity. 35 SNP and the rest of the small parties will oppose it as they are solidly remain. ( bar the DUP perhaps?)
It won't even get to a vote anyway a its clear it would not pass and to many tories and labour a deal with the other is simply unthinkable
So less than 300 opposing, that means it gets through. Basically all it needs is for more labour to obey their whip, than for tories to rebel. That is a comfortable victory IMO.
Of course, add in a confirmatory ref, and then I can see more tories rebelling and running scared of the democracy they preach so loudly. But that seems quite low on the Labour leaderships wants.
The shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, has poured cold water on Theresa May’s plan to offer a temporary customs union to win Labour over to a Brexit deal, saying the cross-party talks were like “trying to enter a contract with a company going into administration”.
The senior Labour politician said his party wanted to do a deal as quickly as possible but would require a permanent customs union to provide stability for businesses, not just an interim arrangement until the next election.
He also said he had no trust in the prime minister and accused her of having “blown” confidentiality after details of the talks were briefed to Sunday newspapers.
As I said - both sides are preparing the ground to blame the other for the talks failing
However, McDonnell said there was still room to do a deal and the party could be willing to compromise in some areas. He highlighted the “large numbers of MPs who actually do support a public vote, so let’s talk about the arrangement for that to take place”.
from the same article. so yes - its really obvious. The labour leadership do want the hardest of hard brexits and will not fight for a second referendum. they will go against party policy on this and the rest of the MPs will go along with them :rolls eyes:
He ( Watson) said a deal would only be done if Keir Starmer, the shadow Brexit secretary, who backs a second referendum, approved it.
“Well, Keir is leading our negotiating team so unless he is happy with the deal I don’t think there is going to be one,” he said.
kelvin
Subscriber
These seats were last contested in 2015, where Labour performed awfully, and then the leader left. That is a low base to drop from.
Bloody hell Kelvin, I included 2015 in the stats- the post you're responding to proved this isn't true. Labour didn't perform awfully in the local elections in 2015, that's just demonstrably made up rubbish.
But just to prove the point further, let's go back further.
Labour have polled 28%, 35%, 27%, 31%, 29% (Miliband’s last, 2015) 31%. 29%, 38%, 37% (Miliband's first), 2010 27% (Brown's last) 23%, 24%, 27% (Blair's last), 26%, 28%, 30%.
So no, Labour did not perform awfully in 2015 in the local elections, in fact they outperformed the trend. This year's supposedly terrible result, was exactly average. Not a shining success- but certainly not a disaster, especially against the supposed trend away from the main parties which everyone is talking about.
(which as I've already shown, is in fact almost entirely UKIP and the Tories- it's just that they've fallen badly enough to create a trend that superficially seems to apply to all 4 despite the other two performing at least averagely)