Forum menu
F me, I cannot fing believe it…..BOTH Lab & Con are calling the results an endorsement of Brexit! How the F do you come to that conclusion when you’ve just been handed your ass to you on a plate?!
Fing deluded both of them..
This+++
F me, I cannot fing believe it…..BOTH Lab & Con are calling the results an endorsement of Brexit! How the F do you come to that conclusion when you’ve just been handed your ass to you on a plate?!
Don't worry, our national media will hold them to account. Oh, LauraK is singing the same tune. Colour me surprised 🤨
I cannot fing believe it…..BOTH Lab & Con are calling the results an endorsement of Brexit!
And thats why, next week, they'll engineer a stitch-up to get Brexit through. Their own self-interest will unite both main parties in scuppering any EU elections taking place.
The Socialist who sold himself as Mr anti-establishment will do a behind-closed-doors deal with the Tories to nod through a hard right, anti-immigrant, neo-liberal capitalist project
BBC's front page headline is
"Main parties hit by Brexit backlash in polls"
And Laura says:
"But at this stage of the morning, there is one message to both of the main parties at Westminster from this enormous set of elections - it's not us, it's both of you."
Where does she say it's an endorsment?
This from the BBC:
“Brandon Lewis, Conservative Party chair, said voters had given his party a very clear message they were "fed up" with the Brexit deadlock and "they want us to get it done".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48142181
Radio4 this morning was Tory and Labour voices lining up behind the "the voters are telling us we just need to get this done" narrative. And "journalists" were repeating not challanging that line. Predictions on Wednesday, by the same journalists, was 400+ gains by Labour. LibDem&Green gains instead hasn't seen their chatter move away from a "the people just want Brexit done" line one inch.
This makes me sad, although I totally understand – I think you’ve been a constant, balanced and logical contributor to this thread.
Until he called the EU a dictatorship.
"voters have turned away from the 2 main parties because they have failed to deliver on Brexit"
Hello. Is anybody listening? People have turned away from the 2 main parties because they have failed to consider a rethink over the whole Brexit debacle. What will it take for the blinkers to come off.
The commentary and responses in line of 'get brexit done' makes my blood boil. total arrogance and assumpiton everyone is too stupid to see past their crap. Even the academic poll statician was at it.
This is a verdict on the competence of Westminster's biggest parties - on the mess of handling Brexit.
Yeah, hello Laura.
Hello. Is anybody listening? People have turned away from the 2 main parties because they have failed to consider a rethink over the whole Brexit debacle.
That is one guess. The other guess i that they just want it done. No telling which guess is right or if a bit of both. Some have turned away (the remainers) while others haven't (the leavers). Same old split and associated mess.
There's a Conservative-Labour Brexit enabling stitch up coming in the next week.
I would say it is a dead cert.
I'll welcome you back any time, Dazh. I've deleted a number first draft posts in reply to you and stuck to playing the ball rather than the man. You seem to have taken my "A" in the good-humoured spirit it was intended.
When you're outside of group think you have to expect some flack, it's just a result of flying a raid over heavily defended territory. If people get personal don't take it personally, you're getting stick for a train of thought which whilst personal and unique to you is also representative of a wider train of thought, and it's irritation and annoyance with that wider train of thought people are expressing.
Question the fundaments of people's belief systems and when they fail to silence you by fair means their instinct (which can be resisted) is to go to foul. On political threads I usually manage to self-sensor to some degree, on petrohead threads, less so. I had some thought provoking and amusing quotes from Nietzsche in reply to some of your posts but deleted them before hitiing submit as I didn't want to join the gang against you. With hindsight I should have left them in the hope you'd see the humour rather than just posting the cold factual counter argument.
That is one guess. The other guess i that they just want it done. No telling which guess is right or if a bit of both.
Totally appreciate that I'm looking at this as an ardent remainer, but really struggling to see how it can be seen as a "let's get Brexit done" message.
Well, we know how to stop "guessing"… the two main parties cook up a deal together they think the majority will back over keeping EU membership… and then they ask us in a referendum.
No telling which guess is right or if a bit of both
It will be a mix of both, but the swing to LD & Green who are both anti-brexit would suggest that the 'just get it done' lot are not the major reason for the reduction in Red/Blue wins. It will be interesting to see the actual counts - has the Red/Blue vote colapsed or are there more 'others' coming out to vote this time
Mogg now has a LibDem councillor. I suspect that he’ll now be one of many MPs now considering a snap General Election a very dangerous thing (for themselves).
Turns out that it's not just Mogg's own ward that flipped to LibDem in his area…
https://twitter.com/msmithsonpb/status/1124226356554928129?s=21
we are doing well where we are facing the Tories, thanks to their vote collapsing, but badly in the Remain wards against Lib Dem’s & Greens, losing a seat to the Greens for the first time, because of our ambivalent national position on #Brexit & a #PeoplesVote
This was the first Electoral test of our policy of “constructive” ambiguity on Tory #brexitshambles. It showed that when you cower in the middle of the road on the biggest existential crisis facing Britain for generations you get squashed. #FinalSay #PeoplesVote
My Labour MP on twitter. Some of them get it.
and then they ask us in a referendum.
The one thing we can be absolutely certain of is that whatever they're presently cooking up certainly won't be put to a referendum. Not a chance!
Labour is definitely upping the 'this is a vote to get on with Brexit' narrative today. Which means Mays deal with some non-committal blather attached about remaining in a form of customs union and workers rights will be whipped though the commons next week.
I agree with you Binners. Weirdly. And sadly. You've called it much more accurately than any of us so far, even if you do do it in a way that winds people up!
Newsthump are on the money today, though it applies equally to the Labour party as the Tories
This for context from Labour:
“Ian Lavery, the Labour party chairman, told BBC News this morning that the Labour leader of Sunderland council was blaming the party’s support for the option of a second referendum as the reason for it losing nine seats on the council. “People want to see Brexit over and done with,” said Lavery, who is one of the shadow cabinet members most hostile to a second referendum.”
I despair, I truly do. It makes me wonder how far up ones own arse you have to have your head to come to this conclusion? Some kind of contortionist with a side line in proctology???
Sorry that dazh is leaving thread, but his EU dictatorship comment was unqualified & foolish.
I think a lot of people who've been defending Labour & their Brexit Stance are having to face a plateful of humble pie for breakfast,what's Owen Jones said? so flounces aplenty
Obviously the likes of 'Bailout Barry' Gardiner & Ian Lavery refusing to let anything derail their dream Brexit
The one thing we can be absolutely certain of is that whatever they’re presently cooking up certainly won’t be put to a referendum. Not a chance!
Word.
The Tories won't even use the word and Labour, whilst talking about a confirmatory vote, are vague about (and we know what that means) whether it will even have Remain as an option.
I'm looking forward to the EU elections, we didn't get local elections here, but we've had our cards for the EU election.
I think a lot of people who’ve been defending Labour & their Brexit Stance are having to face a plateful of humble pie for breakfast
Not me. I would expect a lot of remainers to move their votes from Tory or Labour and I would also expect a lot of leavers to continue voting for Labour and Tory. Both parties were bound to lose votes. The fact the tories have lost a lot more than Labour is the telling thing here though.
Still think Labour's Brexit stance is fine if Brexit is to happen. Nobody knows what the result would be if Labour were a 100% a second ref party unless we rerun the vote. Everybody is just making it up and guessing.
Keeley , Preliminary analysis by John curtice & others says that labours stance is hurting them.
The Tories fired their defence sec for leaking secrets the day b4 this election (46th minister list in 2 years!!!)
Labour should be wiping the floor with Tories right now.
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1124270222184275970?s=19
Countdown to next weeks Brexit stitch-up...
https://twitter.com/johnmcdonnellmp/status/1124210656146862080?s=21
Still think Labour’s Brexit stance is fine if Brexit is to happen
Barnier has reuled out Labour's Brexit stance so it's a pure piece of fiction. As is often the case the foreign press has a better grip on what's possible than British politicians.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/01/world/europe/customs-union-brexit.html
Edit: Yhre link doesn't work, it's and article in the NYTimes headlined: A Customs Union for Britain: How One Brexit Idea Might Work
That bigger loss in Sunderland (and subsequent lib dem gain) is interesting, that was a pro brexit area. Wonder if they fancy a second referendum?
The Sunderland vote is a little misleading. There's been a real uproar there about the Labour councillors and some, lets say, strange spending habits - costs of new Civic Centre, expenses claims etc. so whilst there could be some noise about Brexit I susppect its more a local issue.
I susppect its more a local issue.
Yup, a great big car plant owned by Renault (who have competing factories all over the place) and Nissan (who under the new EU trade deal can import direct from Japan).
Keeley , Preliminary analysis by John curtice & others says that labours stance is hurting them.
Yep, it obviously will be. Labour remainers will not like what they are doing. My point is, if Labour had a different stance (i.e second ref) nobody knows what the impact would be to the vote. What if votes also went down, what stance should they tale then. Should we have council elections every week to see what stance the voters like the most?
Both parties were bound to lose votes. The fact the tories have lost a lot more than Labour is the telling thing here though.
Kerley's take is no surprise. Full on ostrich. Remember, these results are compared to 2015, when the Tories were flying high, getting their first majority government for decades at a general election held at the same time. The shit show since is bound to lose them support in all directions (Bath & North East Somerset results I posted above being a lovely example)… but for Labour to be doing worse than they did in that election year, after which they replaced their leader, is quite something. Something major. It is not a step towards government. And their Brexit policy is key to this, nationwide. Not only does the majority of country as a whole think Brexit is a mistake now, those inclined to vote Labour are far more likely to think so than those inclined to vote Tory.
what stance should they tale then.
Remain, like over 60% of the people who voted for them and a large pool of potential voters.
Posted by Kimbers, yesterday, before the local elections results…
Somebody is awake today..
Speaking in Greater Manchester, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said he "wanted to do better" and conceded voters who disagreed with its backing for Brexit had deserted the party.
Remain, like over 60% of the people who voted for them and a large pool of potential voters.
Yep. And how do you know that would have got better results? The labour voters who don't want to remain would have then voted elsewhere. Again, you are all just guessing and making it up. Nobody knows what is going through the mind of each voter and what would cause them to vote for any particular party and a thing that wins some will lose others.
Full on ostrich.
Stop with the insults please. Just because you don't agree with me or see my viewpoint.
Head.
In.
The.
Sand.
What kind of ****ing moron is John McDonnell? Message received - wtf?
I suppose I have personally now got labours message - they definitely no longer want my vote. Fair enough.
We are not guessing, remainders voted for parties supporting remain. It is as simple as that.
What I am guessing is that leavers were more at a loss for who to vote for. Ukip is full on racist and they have lost faith in Tories and Labour to deliver Brexit.
If eu elections happen, Farage party will do very well from Leavers and Remain parties will do well out of Remainers.
Nobody knows what is going through the mind of each voter
Hmmmmmmm if only there was consistent polling show whether labour voters where overwhelmingly opposed to Brexit....
I must admit, if you do hold a different view on this thread, you tend to get ostrichcized
ostrichcized
Birds of a feather?
My point is, if Labour had a different stance (i.e second ref) nobody knows what the impact would be to the vote.
I think the massive swing away from pro-Brexit parties to anti-Brexit parties is in some way indicative, but that might just be me being naive.
I'm not sure you can call the anti-con/lab vote a full anti-brexit vote until you analyse the swing in the NOC councils.
Sure CON have lost loads (28 at the moment, sure to be more? ) and Lib Dem have gained, but NOC have gained more.
Lots of data on general sentiment hidden in those NOC figures.
Ostracised! Daz got sent to the gulag for daring to compare our dear EU to a dictatorship FFS. His resignation letter clearly forged - he will be missed.
He flounced because the results made a mockery of the conclusions he had constantly repeated. Laughably trying to play the victim card on the way out was frankly embarrassing (or should have been).
And called anyone who voted TIG a Tory.
Which I personally find deeply offensive, along with calling the EU a dictatorship.
Nothing has been concluded yet. I think despite what Labour are saying they will take heed of the Lib Dem increases.
I think he said the EU is a bit like a dictatorship- offensive?!
EDIT I get it - you were offended by the TIG thing not the EU thing.
despite what Labour are saying they will take heed of the Lib Dem increases.
Yes, they will. By ensuring there is no EU election or referendum.
We shall see...
he said
The way the EU works now though is barely distinguishable from a dictatorship
maybe if he'd tried to qualify that with some examples of how this is the case, he wouldnt have been mocked
if you talk nonsense you'll be mocked,
funnily enough it doesnt make this list !
https://planetrulers.com/current-dictators/
Head.
In.
The.
Sand
****
****
****
****
And called anyone who voted TIG a Tory.
They must be pretty close to being a tory. Many of TIG were in the tory party for quite a while so would have tory "values". They just didn't like the Brexit bit but must have been fairly happy with the rest of the tory shit.
I think the massive swing away from pro-Brexit parties to anti-Brexit parties is in some way indicative, but that might just be me being naive.
There is quite a but of naivety to it yes. It is not that straight forward.
Yes, they will. By ensuring there is no EU election or referendum.
We shall see…
The narrative is being pushed hard by both parties that these results prove 'the people have spoken and told us to get on and deliver Brexit' when in reality they say the polar opposite. They're doing the groundwork with that one though. Both equally. Labour has got very Brexity indeed, with its language today
This is off the back of not a peep out of either of them with regard to how the cross-party talks are going.
Neither party want the EU elections to take place, for obvious reasons, so are preparing a stitch-up for next week
Expect Mays deal to be back in the commons next week, along with some vague wishy-washy, noncommittal nonsense about customs unions and workers rights, and a Corbyn 3-line whip to get it through.
There is quite a but of naivety to it yes. It is not that straight forward.
Well, thank you for the clarification, I now feel far more worldly-wise.
Not quite barely distinguishable but Yannis Varoufakis says this:
This European cartel and the bureaucrats who administered it feared the demos and despised the idea of government by the people, just like the administrators of oil producers Opec, or indeed any corporation, does. Patiently and methodically, a process of depoliticising decision-making was put in place, the result a relentless drive towards taking the “demos” out of “democracy”, at least as far as the EU was concerned, and cloaking all policy-making in a pervasive pseudo-technocratic fatalism. National politicians were rewarded handsomely for their acquiescence to turning the commission, the Council, Ecofin (EU finance ministers), the Eurogroup (eurozone finance ministers) and the European Central Bank into politics-free, democracy-free, zones. Anyone opposing the process was labelled “un-European” and treated as a jarring dissonance.
Yannis just wanted all of European politics to change on the back of a populist vote in his country. Fair enough, but all his comments should be read with that in mind. He's well thought out, a clear speaker and writer… but always keep one eye on his bias. Worth reading what he has to say though… always interesting and thought provoking.
My point is, if Labour had a different stance (i.e second ref) nobody knows what the impact would be to the vote.
If I had to hazard a guess, they'd do better, but it would be far from a all-win type deal.
Take Bolsover, who have elected Dennis Skinner as their MP for all-but half a century. It's a Labour heart-land and they also voted Leave almost 2 to 1. Would they suddenly vote Tory? No chance, the Tory face of Brexit is JRM and BoJo, they couldn't win a raffle in Bolsover if there was only 2 tickets. They got battered there last night, it's hard to be sure because they lost votes to Indies who don't seem to have a website etc to really show what they're about that I can find, but given the state of the Lib Dem vote, it would seem to me the good people of Bolsover just want to "get on with it".
But whilst 'the Beast of Bolsover' is pretty closely aligned to Corbyn's style of Labour, he's usually at odds with more progressive MPs, which is pretty much all of them bar a few.
In reality, I don't think, even if Corbyn promised to revoke A50 he'd reap enough of a benefit to win a GE, Maybe, just maybe a coalition with LD and SNP but fundamentally the damage is done with the people who voted 'New Labour' in 3 times on the bounce.
Saying that, if someone like Tom Watson was leader they could.
Let not forget that the Blair / Brown Labour party was one of the most popular governments in decades, and yeah the war was a terrible mistake - but it was the great recession that ended it. I think someone like Tom Watson riding a pro-remain manifesto could win a GE, Corbyn has failed to gain a following big enough on a national level, he's had a GE, he's had local elections and he'll have EU elections to try to prove he's got what it takes, but he hasn't.
I think he knows he couldn't win on a pro-remain manifesto, he probably knows deep down he can't win at all - I mean, if you can't run circles around a government as bad as we've got now, you're going to get blown away by a organised, united Tory which, which, by hook or by crook they'll have post-Brexit.
Yanis makes some good points but unquestionably parroting a man who failed utterly to do what he set out to & in just 6 months of finacial stewardship cost the greek state dearly, the blame game between him & tspiras was childish & gave insight into why he really failed
I've read Global Minotaur but nought else apart form odd articles like above. Always good on the T.V!
P-jay look at how much Dennis Skinner's majority was cut in the last general election and how the Tories won the neighbouring constituencies of NE Derbyshire and Mansfield all similar ex mining communities and very pro-leave.
This was primarily to do with Brexit - with voters going Tory via UKIP.
However given current state of Tory division on Brexit I doubt they would repeat the gains - but I can't see Labour winning back the voters either.
He flounced because the results made a mockery of the conclusions he had constantly repeated.
Yes of course I did. Wasn't at all anything to do with at various points on this thread being called a nazi sympathiser, a bellend, a f***ing idiot, and then the final straw of being labelled a communist. TBH it wasn't any of them as I have a rather thick skin, but when people start talking about me as if I'm subject under discussion as rayban did then it's probably time to get out. I suppose I could have retorted with a deconstruction of his persona on here but then I try to stick to the subject.
If you want my opinion on the election results I'll happily give it but after seeing you lot indulge in a day of seeing what you want to see circle-jerking I'm not sure there's much point 🙂
See dazh, it was great when you said you were playing devils advocate. That's a very useful role in any social bubble, especially given the bans and departures we've already had. It's just that you seemed to over-play it and you've become increasingly deaf to what other folk are saying. To then come out with the "dictatorship" thing just pushed it over the edge and now I can't give you any credibility. There was no need for personal abuse though. Hope that makes some sense.
I think someone like Tom Watson riding a pro-remain manifesto could win a GE, Corbyn has failed to gain a following big enough on a national level
Agree. Corybn is part of the problem as many people can't look past him and see the policies which would actually be good for them. Tom Watson with the same policies would be more successful.
ctk
Member
I’ve read Global Minotaur but nought else apart form odd articles like above. Always good on the T.V!
I agree, hes very charismatic
you never hear a bad word said about him, which always makes me wonder..........
in many ways he was very like May, the troika told him that they wouldnt accept his plans for debt relief without agreeing to cutting greek pensions & other reforms. but he endlessly tried to do just that, putting a tweaked version of the deal up again & again. He says he may have well been singing the swedish national anthem,
but the Troika view was that he was just pointlessly running down the clock
and as a minister this champion of democracy never partcipated in parliament (infact initially the plan was for him not to be part of syrzia- that he won election with a huge number of votes eclipsed that tho)
all swings in Leave voting seats
Barnsley: 17.3% swing from Labour to LDs
Coventry: 2% swing from Labour to Greens
Derby: 6.2% swing from Labour to LDs
Dudley: 1.4% swing from Labour to LDs
NE Lincolnshire: 2.7% swing from Labour to LDs
Oldham: 2.8% swing Labour to LDs
Peterborough: 6.9% swing Labour to LDs; 2.7% swing Labour to Greens
Sunderland: 13.4% swing Labour to LDs; 10.9% swing Labour to Greens
In particular read the section under "But in other areas, majorities are enough. Under the new system for majority voting, a law has to pass two hurdles" and this:
"Member states representing 65% of all the people in the EU have to vote for a law before it passes".
I think I would quite like to see that in our parliament. Along with a minimum requirement of the population represented by "the government" which would inevitably mean coalition even with our FPTP voting system.
Take Bolsover
Yes interesting result. Tories UP 2 seats. What's that all about?
P-jay look at how much Dennis Skinner’s majority was cut in the last general election and how the Tories won the neighbouring constituencies of NE Derbyshire and Mansfield all similar ex mining communities and very pro-leave.
This was primarily to do with Brexit – with voters going Tory via UKIP.
Aye - and us in Bassetlaw (69% Brexit) where we have gained Labour councillors last night.
Yes interesting result. Tories UP 2 seats. What’s that all about?
It's Barlborough. The very upmarket end, farms etc. The traditional Bolsover vote is still Labour with bits and bobs of independent.
Jess Phillips talking sense, yet again
And greeted with the usual predictable wailing from Corbyn’s disciples
And greeted with the usual predictable wailing from Corbyn’s disciples
Isn't she just talking Labour out of a GE? Same old sound bite stuff from that gob.
Just goes to show that people vote(d) Labour for lots of different reasons.
So Tories have been slaughtered - lost 1000+ seats. Labour lost 100+ when they should have been winning big. Lib Dems and Independents gain 500+ each and greens 150, finally UKIP lose 99.
So that tells us there is a massive amount of discontent with main parties and it is substantially because of Brexit, but where does it take us? What can the Tories do to turn it around? Is it a big enough result to get Labour off the fence and if so which side do they jump onto?
Sadly,I think there is basically **** all the Tories can do as they are in complete disarray and the result isn't big enough to shift Labour. So back as you were... unfortunately
Jess Philips. I would soo vote for that woman; she’s bloody brilliant!
I think a hell of a lot of people would vote for Jess Phillips! She is indeed bloody brilliant!
But getting elected isn’t really the focus of the present Labour Party leadership, is it?
Wasn’t at all anything to do with at various points on this thread being called a nazi sympathiser
Are you sure that is what you were called? Not just an alt-right apologist, when you were arguing to implement alt-right policies as the best way to supposedly stop alt-right populism. And of course you are quite happy to insinuate that any one who disagrees with you is a liberal elite, champagne socialist, audi driving middle manager etc While you and you alone are the true voice of the working classes.